glueless patches.

Callistus Valerius said:

I've been using Aireon glueless patches lately and they work
great. Sick of the glue and only getting 1 out 3 to work. I never
tried glueless because of the bad rap, until I saw another guy use
them, and couldn't believe how simple it was and the good results.
Are the Aierion's just better than the other brands, why the bad rap?

Becuase they don't always stick and stay stuck. 3 out of 3 normal patches
should work and stay working forever. You're probably doing something
wrong, like not sanding the tube enough, or not letting the gue dry before
applying patch, or inflating to test with tube outside of tyre.

~PB

Quoted message said:

Becuase they don't always stick and stay stuck. 3 out of 3 normal patches
should work and stay working forever. You're probably doing something
wrong, like not sanding the tube enough, or not letting the gue dry before
applying patch, or inflating to test with tube outside of tyre.

~PB

I do inflate to test, maybe that's it. So you're saying the glueless
work at first and then fail? Just started today when I ran out of tubes,
had one on the front and back, and they were full pressure 50 miles later.
Your right, with the glue, if you get it to work, it lasts forever. Don't
try them on rollers though, as they melt the glue.

Callistus Valerius said:

Quoted message said:

Becuase they don't always stick and stay stuck. 3 out of 3 normal
patches should work and stay working forever. You're probably doing
something wrong, like not sanding the tube enough, or not letting
the gue dry before applying patch, or inflating to test with tube
outside of tyre.

Quoted message said:

I do inflate to test, maybe that's it.

Probably. You need to have faith in your repair :-)

Quoted message said:

So you're saying the
glueless work at first and then fail?

Exactly that has happened to me with Giyo (sp?) glueless patches.

~PB

Callistus Valerius said:

Quoted message said:

Because they don't always stick and stay stuck. 3 out of 3 normal
patches should work and stay working forever. You're probably
doing something wrong, like not sanding the tube enough, or not
letting the glue dry before applying patch, or inflating to test
with tube outside of tyre.

Quoted message said:

I do inflate to test, maybe that's it. So you're saying the
glueless work at first and then fail? Just started today when I ran
out of tubes, had one on the front and back, and they were full
pressure 50 miles later. Your right, with the glue, if you get it
to work, it lasts forever. Don't try them on rollers though, as
they melt the glue.

You might look at these considerations:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/patching.html

[email hidden]

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 02:40:24 GMT, "Callistus Valerius"

may have said:

I've been using Aireon glueless patches lately and they work great.
Sick of the glue and only getting 1 out 3 to work.

A failure rate like that often indicates excessive haste in the repair
process.

Quoted message said:

I never tried glueless
because of the bad rap, until I saw another guy use them, and couldn't
believe how simple it was and the good results. Are the Aierion's just
better than the other brands, why the bad rap?

I haven't tried those, but based on experience, I don't have a burning
desire to do so. To date, I have tried three brands of self-adhesive
patch with poor results. (Well, four, really, but I never gave the
Bell patches any serious chance of working, so I don't count them.)

Aside from history, however, I have misgivings about self-adhesive
patches for another reason, and that's the nature of their glue. The
cement used with conventional patches is a contact cement which is
designed to be chemically compatible with the patch face and the tube
material, forming a strong bond if properly applied, and the glue is
nonplastic after it dries; that is, it won't migrate. Every
self-adhesive patch I've seen, on the other hand, has employed a
sticky substance that is intended to never dry out; it remains plastic
permanently. As such, it can migrate, and under pressure I would
expect that this is exactly what will occur.

With a conventional patch, I know that the repair (if executed
properly) is permanent, and will last as long as the rest of the tube.
Since the conventional ones are working well for me, I have (as I
said) no particularly strong motivation to try alternatives.

If I were involved in competitive racing, where time lost patching a
flat could be critical, I might be more interested in trying quick0fix
methods, but since I'm not, I'll stick with what I know works for me.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

"Werehatrack" wrote: (clip) I'll stick with what I know works for me.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I collect unintentional puns. This goes in my collection.

Quoted message said:

Callistus Valerius said:

I've been using Aireon glueless patches lately and they work
great. Sick of the glue and only getting 1 out 3 to work. I never
tried glueless because of the bad rap, until I saw another guy use
them, and couldn't believe how simple it was and the good results.
Are the Aierion's just better than the other brands, why the bad rap?

Becuase they don't always stick and stay stuck. 3 out of 3 normal patches
should work and stay working forever. You're probably doing something
wrong, like not sanding the tube enough, or not letting the gue dry before
applying patch, or inflating to test with tube outside of tyre.

~PB

My experience with the thin, pre-glued patches (the ones I use are under the
Trek label, but they're sold by others as well) have been excellent. They
have worked nicely as permanent patches, not something temporary that I
would have to worry about down the road. The big advantage I see to them is
that there's no tube of glue to dry up... once opened, there's a definite
shelf life to the small tubes of glue that come with patch kits.

On the other hand, I had poor results with the much-thicker square patches
made by Park.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

Werehatrack said:

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 02:40:24 GMT, "Callistus Valerius"

may have said:

I've been using Aireon glueless patches lately and they work
great. Sick of the glue and only getting 1 out 3 to work.

A failure rate like that often indicates excessive haste in the repair
process.

Quoted message said:

I never tried glueless
because of the bad rap, until I saw another guy use them, and
couldn't believe how simple it was and the good results. Are the
Aierion's just better than the other brands, why the bad rap?

I haven't tried those, but based on experience, I don't have a burning
desire to do so. To date, I have tried three brands of self-adhesive
patch with poor results. (Well, four, really, but I never gave the
Bell patches any serious chance of working, so I don't count them.)

Aside from history, however, I have misgivings about self-adhesive
patches for another reason, and that's the nature of their glue. The
cement used with conventional patches is a contact cement which is
designed to be chemically compatible with the patch face and the tube
material, forming a strong bond if properly applied, and the glue is
nonplastic after it dries; that is, it won't migrate. Every
self-adhesive patch I've seen, on the other hand, has employed a
sticky substance that is intended to never dry out; it remains plastic
permanently. As such, it can migrate, and under pressure I would
expect that this is exactly what will occur.

With a conventional patch, I know that the repair (if executed
properly) is permanent, and will last as long as the rest of the tube.
Since the conventional ones are working well for me, I have (as I
said) no particularly strong motivation to try alternatives.

If I were involved in competitive racing, where time lost patching a
flat could be critical, I might be more interested in trying quick0fix
methods, but since I'm not, I'll stick with what I know works for me.

Your experience with these is the same as mine. I've found the glueless ones
work better if you abrade the tube thoroughly as you would with a regular patch.
However, because they all do eventually fail, I've given up on them. Whether
they fail in few minutes, a few hours or a few months it's all the same PITA.
Getting the stickum off the tube so a real patch can be used is a pain too.
Real patches are the only way to go.

Most riders would probably go for convenience and just buy a new tube when one
has a slow leak. But if you use regular patches properly, there's no reason to
buy new tubes until they're full of patches.

Matt O.

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've been using Aireon glueless patches lately and they work
great. Sick of the glue and only getting 1 out 3 to work. I never
tried glueless because of the bad rap, until I saw another guy use
them, and couldn't believe how simple it was and the good results.
Are the Aierion's just better than the other brands, why the bad
rap?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Because they don't always stick and stay stuck. 3 out of 3 normal
patches should work and stay working forever. You're probably
doing something wrong, like not sanding the tube enough, or not
letting the glue dry before applying patch, or inflating to test
with tube outside of tyre.

Quoted message said:

My experience with the thin, pre-glued patches (the ones I use are
under the Trek label, but they're sold by others as well) have been
excellent. They have worked nicely as permanent patches, not
something temporary that I would have to worry about down the road.
The big advantage I see to them is that there's no tube of glue to
dry up... once opened, there's a definite shelf life to the small
tubes of glue that come with patch kits.

What is less apparent is that tubes of glue do not dry up AFTER they
have been opened, but do so all the time because the makers of this
stuff don't realize that the crimp on the bottom of the tube is porous
and the solvent in the glue, highly volatile. That's why it dries so
quickly when used. Bicycle shops with low turnover of stock sell
pre-dried glue tubes. I have had the opportunity to puncture the
threaded end only to find a veritable void with a little stiff jelly
after squeezing the tube hard enough.

Quoted message said:

On the other hand, I had poor results with the much-thicker square
patches made by Park.

So how well can you pull one of these off after a week in place? What
makes them "cure" and become permanent as glue+REMA patches do?

[email hidden]

Werehatrack said:

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 02:40:24 GMT, "Callistus Valerius"

may have said:

I've been using Aireon glueless patches lately and they work great.
Sick of the glue and only getting 1 out 3 to work.

A failure rate like that often indicates excessive haste in the repair
process.

Quoted message said:

I never tried glueless
because of the bad rap, until I saw another guy use them, and couldn't
believe how simple it was and the good results. Are the Aierion's just
better than the other brands, why the bad rap?

I haven't tried those, but based on experience, I don't have a burning
desire to do so. To date, I have tried three brands of self-adhesive
patch with poor results.

I think the various opinions of glueless patches correspond to different
classes of riders. I think they may work reasonably well for mountain
bike tubes, due to the low pressure used. But, for road tires, they suck,
since the pressure is high enough to blow through the patch. This has
been my experience, at least.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Do not worry about your difficulties in mathematics, I can
_`\(,_ | assure you that mine are all greater. -- A. Einstein
(_)/ (_) |

David L. Johnson said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've been using Aireon glueless patches lately and they work
great. Sick of the glue and only getting 1 out 3 to work.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

A failure rate like that often indicates excessive haste in the
repair process.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I never tried glueless because of the bad rap, until I saw another
guy use them, and couldn't believe how simple it was and the good
results. Are the Aierion's just better than the other brands, why
the bad rap?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I haven't tried those, but based on experience, I don't have a
burning desire to do so. To date, I have tried three brands of
self-adhesive patch with poor results.

Quoted message said:

I think the various opinions of glueless patches correspond to
different classes of riders. I think they may work reasonably well
for mountain bike tubes, due to the low pressure used. But, for
road tires, they suck, since the pressure is high enough to blow
through the patch. This has been my experience, at least.

Whoa! Patches generally do not retain inflation pressure, the tire
casing does that. The patch only makes an air tight bond with the
inner tube while the tire holds the pressure. Therefore, how does a
patch blow out at the puncture unless this required a boot. A REMA
patch will not hold against that sort of load either, the orange
"rubber" being highly plastic and the black par not much better.

I don't understand under what circumstances you had air blow through a
patch. Can you explain that. My contention is that the glueless
patch gets dislodged by casing flex in use and since it never cures,
easily develops separation from the tube. The classic uncured REMA
patch failure in use emulates that syndrome. In that event the tube
can and does peel away from the patch from the hole outwards. As I
have often mentioned, cut an old tube apart through a patch and see
how much of it has talcum powder under it.

[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

My experience with the thin, pre-glued patches (the ones I use are
under the Trek label, but they're sold by others as well) have been
excellent. They have worked nicely as permanent patches, not
something temporary that I would have to worry about down the road.
The big advantage I see to them is that there's no tube of glue to
dry up... once opened, there's a definite shelf life to the small
tubes of glue that come with patch kits.

What is less apparent is that tubes of glue do not dry up AFTER they
have been opened, but do so all the time because the makers of this
stuff don't realize that the crimp on the bottom of the tube is porous
and the solvent in the glue, highly volatile. That's why it dries so
quickly when used. Bicycle shops with low turnover of stock sell
pre-dried glue tubes. I have had the opportunity to puncture the
threaded end only to find a veritable void with a little stiff jelly
after squeezing the tube hard enough.

Quoted message said:

On the other hand, I had poor results with the much-thicker square
patches made by Park.

So how well can you pull one of these off after a week in place? What
makes them "cure" and become permanent as glue+REMA patches do?

I don't find any noticeable difference between the peel-ability of a Rema vs
one of the Trek pre-glued patches. What is it about a standard patch that
makes it "cure" as you say, that's different from what you might expect from
a pre-glued patch? Doesn't really matter that much to me though, as they
(the pre-glued patches) seem to work just fine. I do notice, however, that
pre-inflation is more likely to cause one to lift an edge than would be the
case with a Rema, but after they've been used for even a day in a tire, they
seem every bit as "bonded" as a Rema would be.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

> I've been using Aireon glueless patches lately and they work
> great. Sick of the glue and only getting 1 out 3 to work. I never
> tried glueless because of the bad rap, until I saw another guy use
> them, and couldn't believe how simple it was and the good results.
> Are the Aierion's just better than the other brands, why the bad
> rap?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Because they don't always stick and stay stuck. 3 out of 3 normal
patches should work and stay working forever. You're probably
doing something wrong, like not sanding the tube enough, or not
letting the glue dry before applying patch, or inflating to test
with tube outside of tyre.

Quoted message said:

My experience with the thin, pre-glued patches (the ones I use are
under the Trek label, but they're sold by others as well) have been
excellent. They have worked nicely as permanent patches, not
something temporary that I would have to worry about down the road.
The big advantage I see to them is that there's no tube of glue to
dry up... once opened, there's a definite shelf life to the small
tubes of glue that come with patch kits.

What is less apparent is that tubes of glue do not dry up AFTER they
have been opened, but do so all the time because the makers of this
stuff don't realize that the crimp on the bottom of the tube is porous
and the solvent in the glue, highly volatile. That's why it dries so
quickly when used. Bicycle shops with low turnover of stock sell
pre-dried glue tubes. I have had the opportunity to puncture the
threaded end only to find a veritable void with a little stiff jelly
after squeezing the tube hard enough.

Quoted message said:

On the other hand, I had poor results with the much-thicker square
patches made by Park.

So how well can you pull one of these off after a week in place? What
makes them "cure" and become permanent as glue+REMA patches do?

[email hidden]

David L. Johnson said:

I think the various opinions of glueless patches correspond to

different

Quoted message said:

classes of riders. I think they may work reasonably well for

mountain

Quoted message said:

bike tubes, due to the low pressure used. But, for road tires, they

suck,

Quoted message said:

since the pressure is high enough to blow through the patch. This

has

Quoted message said:

been my experience, at least.

A lot of people toss tubes after a patch or 2. A lot of mine have a
dozen or so. I've found that pre-glued patches fail (slow leak,
typically) after several months to a year or so, and that replacing
them with a Rema-type patch at that time is difficult because of the
residuals. I don't know if the latest crop is any better, I haven't
tried new ones in a couple of years. My experience were all with 40 psi
max MTB tubes.

jobst.brandt said:

Quoted message said:

I think the various opinions of glueless patches correspond to
different classes of riders. I think they may work reasonably well
for mountain bike tubes, due to the low pressure used. But, for
road tires, they suck, since the pressure is high enough to blow
through the patch. This has been my experience, at least.

Whoa! Patches generally do not retain inflation pressure, the tire
casing does that. The patch only makes an air tight bond with the
inner tube while the tire holds the pressure. Therefore, how does a
patch blow out at the puncture unless this required a boot. A REMA
patch will not hold against that sort of load either, the orange
"rubber" being highly plastic and the black par not much better.

I am presuming that the higher pressure makes it more likely for gaps to
form between the patch and the tube. I'm not suggesting that the air
blows through the patch.

I have seen several glueless patches fail quickly, but only on road tires.
Mountain bikers have better results with these things. I don't see how
that casing flex would have more effect on road tires than mountain tires,
with the lower pressure of a mountain bike tire. Of course, it could be
poor patching technique, or the failures might be encouraged due to the
smaller size of road tubes, making it harder to get a good seal initially.

Quoted message said:

I don't understand under what circumstances you had air blow through a
patch. Can you explain that. My contention is that the glueless patch
gets dislodged by casing flex in use and since it never cures, easily
develops separation from the tube.

Do these separations begin at the edge of the patch, or at the hole in the
tube?

Quoted message said:

failure in use emulates that syndrome. In that event the tube can and
does peel away from the patch from the hole outwards.

Wouldn't the air pressure tend to spread that separation from the hole
outwards? If the separation is caused by tire flex, I would expect the
separations to be spreading from the edges inward.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Do not worry about your difficulties in mathematics, I can
_`\(,_ | assure you that mine are all greater. -- A. Einstein
(_)/ (_) |

David L. Johnson said:

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 06:09:50 +0000, jobst.brandt wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

My contention is that the glueless
patch gets dislodged by casing flex in use and since it never cures,
easily develops separation from the tube.

Quoted message said:

Do these separations begin at the edge of the patch, or at the hole
in the tube?

Quoted message said:

Wouldn't the air pressure tend to spread that separation from the hole
outwards? If the separation is caused by tire flex, I would expect
the separations to be spreading from the edges inward.

I've noticed a couple of glueless patches starting to separate at the hole -- a
tiny bubble forming there. Others which failed had a bubble in the middle as
well as a crease, suggesting the failure was caused by a combination of the air
bubbling out, soft glue, *and* the patch being moved WRT the tube and the tire.
Jobst has written about a piece of paper being shredded between tire and tube,
because they move against each other. So it stands to reason a patch is
susceptible to this, unless firmly glued. Glueless patches are not.

Matt O.

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On the other hand, I had poor results with the much-thicker square
patches made by Park.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So how well can you pull one of these off after a week in place?
What makes them "cure" and become permanent as glue+REMA patches do?

Quoted message said:

I don't find any noticeable difference between the peel-ability of a
Rema vs one of the Trek pre-glued patches. What is it about a
standard patch that makes it "cure" as you say, that's different from
what you might expect from a pre-glued patch? Doesn't really matter
that much to me though, as they (the pre-glued patches) seem to work
just fine. I do notice, however, that pre-inflation is more likely to
cause one to lift an edge than would be the case with a Rema, but
after they've been used for even a day in a tire, they seem every bit
as "bonded" as a Rema would be.

I have some "Advent" brand patches that worked better than the others. They're
a black foamy substance, thicker than the thin tape stuff the original Park ones
were made of. They do seem to stick almost as well as a regular patch, but
still bubble over the hole eventually. I just ripped one off a tube and
replaced it a few weeks ago. It was a pain to get the glue off so I could put a
new patch on. It seems the glue does cure somehow.

While I prefer not to use them, I do carry glueless patches in case I get
several flats on one ride. They take up so little room, why not?

BTW, there are tubes all over my apartment -- some recently patched, some still
with holes. I've been working so much the last couple of weeks, I've forgotten
which. I put them aside to be fixed and then get sidetracked. So I have to
pump them up and wait to see which ones leak down. Then I get sidetracked
again...

Matt O.

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

So how well can you pull one of these off after a week in place?
What makes them "cure" and become permanent as glue+REMA patches
do?

Quoted message said:

I don't find any noticeable difference between the peel-ability of a
Rema vs one of the Trek pre-glued patches. What is it about a
standard patch that makes it "cure" as you say, that's different
from what you might expect from a pre-glued patch?

If you try to remove a REMA parch after a day or so, it doesn't come
off and cannot be peeled off... unless you use heat as described in
"removing patches". If you can peel a pre-glued patch off with a
fingernail, it isn't as secure as it should be. Can you do that?

Quoted message said:

Doesn't really matter that much to me though, as they (the pre-glued
patches) seem to work just fine. I do notice, however, that
pre-inflation is more likely to cause one to lift an edge than would
be the case with a Rema, but after they've been used for even a day
in a tire, they seem every bit as "bonded" as a Rema would be.

Well, that's the question. They are apparently more sensitive to
preparation and use judging from the number of people who have
reported poor reliability and have cast doubt on them. Of course
there are also users who have poor success with the glue and patch
method so it's hard to tell. I have not used them.

[email hidden]

David L. Johnson said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I think the various opinions of glueless patches correspond to
different classes of riders. I think they may work reasonably
well for mountain bike tubes, due to the low pressure used. But,
for road tires, they suck, since the pressure is high enough to
blow through the patch. This has been my experience, at least.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Whoa! Patches generally do not retain inflation pressure, the tire
casing does that. The patch only makes an air tight bond with the
inner tube while the tire holds the pressure. Therefore, how does
a patch blow out at the puncture unless this required a boot. A
REMA patch will not hold against that sort of load either, the
orange "rubber" being highly plastic and the black par not much
better.

Quoted message said:

I am presuming that the higher pressure makes it more likely for
gaps to form between the patch and the tube. I'm not suggesting
that the air blows through the patch.

How does a gap form between the patch and tube. The pressure in the
tube presses it and the patch against the tire casing with, say,
100psi. That's a force about like standing on the patch with your
foot. Of course that is why talcum powder between tube and tire has
no effect. The contact is under so high a pressure that there is not
motion other than stretching of the tube to conform with casing
distortions.

Quoted message said:

I have seen several glueless patches fail quickly, but only on road
tires. Mountain bikers have better results with these things. I
don't see how that casing flex would have more effect on road tires
than mountain tires, with the lower pressure of a mountain bike
tire. Of course, it could be poor patching technique, or the
failures might be encouraged due to the smaller size of road tubes,
making it harder to get a good seal initially.

I don't see to what you attribute these failures. The same leak
mechanism is at work in low and high pressure tires. In fact a low
pressure tire will give the patch a greater flexing massage if that is
where you see the problem.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I don't understand under what circumstances you had air blow
through a patch. Can you explain that. My contention is that the
glueless patch gets dislodged by casing flex in use and since it
never cures, easily develops separation from the tube.

Quoted message said:

Do these separations begin at the edge of the patch, or at the hole
in the tube?

ibid

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

failure in use emulates that syndrome. In that event the tube can
and does peel away from the patch from the hole outwards.

Quoted message said:

Wouldn't the air pressure tend to spread that separation from the
hole outwards? If the separation is caused by tire flex, I would
expect the separations to be spreading from the edges inward.

See "Leaky Patches":

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/patching.html

[email hidden]

Matt O'Toole said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

My contention is that the glueless patch gets dislodged by casing
flex in use and since it never cures, easily develops separation
from the tube.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Do these separations begin at the edge of the patch, or at the hole
in the tube?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Wouldn't the air pressure tend to spread that separation from the
hole outwards? If the separation is caused by tire flex, I would
expect the separations to be spreading from the edges inward.

Quoted message said:

I've noticed a couple of glueless patches starting to separate at
the hole -- a tiny bubble forming there. Others which failed had a
bubble in the middle as well as a crease, suggesting the failure was
caused by a combination of the air bubbling out, soft glue, *and*
the patch being moved WRT the tube and the tire. Jobst has written
about a piece of paper being shredded between tire and tube, because
they move against each other. So it stands to reason a patch is
susceptible to this, unless firmly glued. Glueless patches are not.

There is no motion between tube and tire but the tire casing distorts
and being rubber, the tube does likewise. The tube behaves as though
it were a rubber tread molded onto the inside of the tire. The
business card lying between tube and tire, however, is not elastic and
breaks up into fine confetti as the bias ply does its diagonal
"shimmy", the card also being unable to move under inflation pressure.

This test came about when I once got a large nail hole in my tire and
had no boot, only a few cards in my wallet. When I got home I was
impressed by the paper shreds I found as I pulled the tube out and
changed the damaged tire. Dollar bills are tougher but in the end
they fail us... use Euros.

[email hidden]