Good wheels

Tom Nakashima said:

"Ozark Bicycle" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tom Nakashima said:

"Ozark Bicycle" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> On Jun 26, 12:33 pm, "Tom Nakashima" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>> "Ozark Bicycle" <[email hidden]> wrote in
>> message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> >> Nah, dismissing a Rivendell apologist is much more fun!
>> > Sic semper hobbits! ;-)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> Not sure why you keep dissing Rivendell Bicycles,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> It's a couple of things.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> One is the whole "Riv cult". You can get a taste on one of the Google
> Groups (RBW Owners?). I suggest doing so on an empty stomach.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> The second is my opinion that Riv has abandoned their (alleged)
> "founding principles" of sensible, practical versatile bikes in favor
> of niche marketing (in the form of leading consumers down the slippery
> slope of weirdly sized wheels and tires *and* in inventing new
> "catergories" of bikes in the hope of, basically, selling the same
> frame to the same person a second [third? fourth?] time.)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> I met Grant Peterson,
>> he's a very nice person. He had a vision to own a bicycle company, and
>> he's
>> fulfilling his dream. I don't see anything wrong with that. I've
>> talked
>> to
>> quite a few master craftsman, Albert Eisentraut, Richard Sachs, Brian
>> Bayless, John Slawta, Bruce Gordon, Joe Bell to name a few, it's not
>> like
>> they're making tons of money at this.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> I would not put Grant Peterson, a salesman, in the same company as a
> "master craftsman", unless the art was shoveling bovine excrement and
> calling it ice cream. YMMV.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I believe Grant Peterson was a designer when he was with Bridgestone
Bicycles.

Quoted message said:

ISTR he was the sales manager. Did he have some input? Sure. How much?
We'll never know.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Scott Nicol (founder of Ibis Cycles) is another I enjoyed chatting
with.
I suppose he's another you would classify as "niche marketing".

Quoted message said:

So now you've taken the comparison with Eisentraut, Bruce Gordon,
etc., out of the discussion and introduced Scot Nicol. Why is that?

Scott was much like Peterson, I don't believe he's a master craftsman like
Slawta, Gordon, Eisentraut, Sachs, but he had ideas just like Peterson has.
It's all there if you do your research and know your bike history, so I'm
surprised you asked that.

Your answer shows *exactly* why I asked the question. The answer is
that, upon reflection, you decided you had Peterson in the wrong
company, right?(IMO, putting Peterson in with folks like Eisentraut,
BG, Richard Sachs, etc., does them a disservice.)

In article
<[email hidden]>
,

landotter said:

Irrational to hate cantis. Set up well, they're practical, low futz,
and modulate nicely. They even have adjustable leverage, not to
mention that I think they're the best looking style of brake.

And to me they look clunky. waddayagunnado?

Absolutely every choice I make on my bicycles must pass
an appearance test. I am a slave to my fashion sense.
I will only ride a frame with a horizontal top tube.
I am 100% certifiably irrational on bicycle looks.
In my defense: I do not condemn other rider's choices.

--
Michael Press

In article
<[email hidden]>
,

landotter said:

Joe Bernard said:

On Jun 25, 3:50 am, Ozark Bicycle

Quoted message said:

On Jun 24, 11:01 pm, Joe Bernard <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

> On Jun 24, 7:46 pm, Ozark Bicycle

Quoted message said:

> <[email hidden]> wrote:
> > On Jun 24, 4:32 pm, Peter Cole <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

> > > Joe Bernard wrote:
> > > > And balderdash to you my friend. I'm referring to "plush" bikes, cool
> > > > road bikes that regular Joes actually want to buy. Touring bikes are
> > > > purchased by tourers and those long wheelbase, thick-tubed, canti-
> > > > braked bikes aren't road bikes, anyway. "Touring bike" is its own
> > > > category. Folks who wanted a regular sidepull-brake road bike bought
> > > > low-bar race bikes, no matter what kind of riding they actually did. I
> > > > don't remember any "sport/touring" bikes from Trek or Cannondale ten
> > > > years ago. Maybe Novara had one. One bike in the corner of REI doesn't
> > > > exactly make a trend.

Quoted message said:

> > > I have both an 80's Fuji and Cannondale, coincidentally, I also have
> > > frames 15-20 years newer from both. The new frames are called "touring",
> > > the old frames weren't. The geometries are virtually identical. Seems
> > > that all that new frames have done in design is to make the chain stays
> > > as short as possible. I think this makes a bike handle poorly.

Quoted message said:

> > > Only one of my long-stayed frames has canti's, the rest are sidepulls.
> > > Really makes little difference. I do prefer the canti's over long reach
> > > sidepulls. Modern frames & brakes have such limited capacities for
> > > things like big tires & fenders. Not all of my bikes have those, but I
> > > like the idea of being able to use them at my option.

Quoted message said:

> > > I think bike "categories" are mostly made up by marketeers (like Grant).

Quoted message said:

> > And, if you are a marketeer whose existance depends on selling
> > different bike models to the same smallish group of people (not the
> > same demographic, but the very same small group of buyers), you have
> > to continually invent new "categories". The "Country Bike" is a
> > perfect example of this.- Hide quoted text -

Quoted message said:

> > - Show quoted text -

Quoted message said:

> The Country Bike came about when Grant decided to pursue 650B wheels
> and center-pull super-long reach brakes, now also augmented by super-
> long dual-pivots. This makes a pretty unique bike.

Quoted message said:

Aside from the annoyingly different, non-standard wheel size, what,
pray tell, is "pretty unique" about those bikes?

Quoted message said:

Oh, and what about "Homer Hilson", doesn't he use those dull and
boring, standard 700c wheels? Is he still a unique entity, a "Country
Bike"?

Quoted message said:

> Hardly worth
> tossing off as just another "category bike" to sell to existing
> customers.

Quoted message said:

None are so blind as those who will not see. :-(- Hide quoted text -

Quoted message said:

- Show quoted text -

Ozark Ozark, Ozark. 650B wheels are for smaller frames with fat tires,
fenders and no toe-clip overlap [TCO]. A. Homer Hilson is the same
caliper-brake style of bike, but the frame is big enough to run 700c
with the same fat-tire/fender/ no-TCO feature. Can you make a small
Country Bike with cantis and 26" wheels? Sure, but I hate cantis

Irrational to hate cantis. Set up well, they're practical, low futz,
and modulate nicely. They even have adjustable leverage, not to
mention that I think they're the best looking style of brake.

Quoted message said:

and
26" wheels are slow.

Not noticeably so. They're a great choice on a "country bike" (giggle)
because when you're in the country and get a sidewall tear, you can
actually get perfectly serviceable 26" street tires at Wally World or
Tarjay.

Quoted message said:

Fat 650Bs are the same diameter as skinny 700c,

Fat slick 26" tires approach that of 700c tires as well. Your point?

650B are 584 mm
26 " are 559 mm
---------------
difference = 25 mm.

That is a lot to make up.

I do nor argue for or against any tire choice.

--
Michael Press

landotter said:

Joe Bernard said:

On Jun 25, 3:50 am, Ozark Bicycle

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Jun 24, 11:01 pm, Joe Bernard <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> On Jun 24, 7:46 pm, Ozark Bicycle

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> <[email hidden]> wrote:
> > On Jun 24, 4:32 pm, Peter Cole <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > Joe Bernard wrote:
> > > > And balderdash to you my friend. I'm referring to "plush" bikes, cool
> > > > road bikes that regular Joes actually want to buy. Touring bikes are
> > > > purchased by tourers and those long wheelbase, thick-tubed, canti-
> > > > braked bikes aren't road bikes, anyway. "Touring bike" is its own
> > > > category. Folks who wanted a regular sidepull-brake road bike bought
> > > > low-bar race bikes, no matter what kind of riding they actually did. I
> > > > don't remember any "sport/touring" bikes from Trek or Cannondale ten
> > > > years ago. Maybe Novara had one. One bike in the corner of REI doesn't
> > > > exactly make a trend.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > I have both an 80's Fuji and Cannondale, coincidentally, I also have
> > > frames 15-20 years newer from both. The new frames are called "touring",
> > > the old frames weren't. The geometries are virtually identical. Seems
> > > that all that new frames have done in design is to make the chain stays
> > > as short as possible. I think this makes a bike handle poorly.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > Only one of my long-stayed frames has canti's, the rest are sidepulls.
> > > Really makes little difference. I do prefer the canti's over long reach
> > > sidepulls. Modern frames & brakes have such limited capacities for
> > > things like big tires & fenders. Not all of my bikes have those, but I
> > > like the idea of being able to use them at my option.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > I think bike "categories" are mostly made up by marketeers (like Grant).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > And, if you are a marketeer whose existance depends on selling
> > different bike models to the same smallish group of people (not the
> > same demographic, but the very same small group of buyers), you have
> > to continually invent new "categories". The "Country Bike" is a
> > perfect example of this.- Hide quoted text -

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > - Show quoted text -

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> The Country Bike came about when Grant decided to pursue 650B wheels
> and center-pull super-long reach brakes, now also augmented by super-
> long dual-pivots. This makes a pretty unique bike.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Aside from the annoyingly different, non-standard wheel size, what,
pray tell, is "pretty unique" about those bikes?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Oh, and what about "Homer Hilson", doesn't he use those dull and
boring, standard 700c wheels? Is he still a unique entity, a "Country
Bike"?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Hardly worth
> tossing off as just another "category bike" to sell to existing
> customers.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

None are so blind as those who will not see. :-(- Hide quoted text -

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

- Show quoted text -

Quoted message said:

Ozark Ozark, Ozark. 650B wheels are for smaller frames with fat tires,
fenders and no toe-clip overlap [TCO]. A. Homer Hilson is the same
caliper-brake style of bike, but the frame is big enough to run 700c
with the same fat-tire/fender/ no-TCO feature. Can you make a small
Country Bike with cantis and 26" wheels? Sure, but I hate cantis

Irrational to hate cantis. Set up well, they're practical, low futz,
and modulate nicely. They even have adjustable leverage, not to
mention that I think they're the best looking style of brake.

Quoted message said:

and
26" wheels are slow.

Not noticeably so. They're a great choice on a "country bike" (giggle)
because when you're in the country and get a sidewall tear, you can
actually get perfectly serviceable 26" street tires at Wally World or
Tarjay.

Quoted message said:

Fat 650Bs are the same diameter as skinny 700c,

Fat slick 26" tires approach that of 700c tires as well. Your point?

Quoted message said:

so you get the same big-wheel momentum with a wheelset that fits a
smaller frame better [assuming you want fat tires and fenders]. Do I
have to explain everything?

Quoted message said:

By the way, Trek and Cannondale and just about everybody else sells
lots of different models, including cross-country, DH, "Hucking", SS
and something called "All Mountain" MTBs to people who like their
bikes. Why is it a problem for Rivendell to have several different
models?

It's the hypocrisy. They pretty much were an antidote to such niche
bikes, but now they're doing exactly that. The Rambouillet and
Atlantis were and are sweet, if overpriced/hyped, do-everything bikes.
The latter a bit stouter and the former slightly more sporting. Wanna
do a lot of country lanes? Either is fine, and the latter will take a
fatter tires if you really need the cush. The Homer Simpson is just a
design exercise in wankery so that they could use a particular brake.

Quoted message said:

Does anybody want to talk about wheels? Jobst? Jim Beam? Bueller?

Nah, dismissing a Rivendell apologist is much more fun!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Really, cantis are just fine. So the fact that they're a pain to set
up, squeal too much, and I hit my heels on them are just my problem
and I should get over it because you think they're fine.

26" wheels are "not noticeably slow", so I should just stop noticing
it when I have better choices. And the reason why i should stop
noticing it is 'cause I can get 'em at Wal-Mart. Nobody's recommending
650B for world tours. 26" is probably best for that. But for a nice
30-150 mile ride in the country, any size wheel you want is just
fine.

Liking Rivendells and Grant Petersen's ideas doesn't make anyone an
apologist. That's like saying I'm a Studio 60 or an Al Gore apologist
just because I like that show and that politician. Some Rivendell/
Grant ideas don't work for me, Studio 60 was seriously flawed, and Al
ran a horrible campaign in 2000. Nevertheless, I still appreciate them
all. That's not apologia, it's just good taste.

In article
<[email hidden]>
,

Chris Nelson said:

Rivendell, on the other hand, builds a dizzying number of models that
all basically do the same thing. Namely, they can handle the road and
light off-road duties, have clearance for wide tires and fenders and
have multiple eyelets for adding racks.

One 700C model is made in 570 mm seat tube minimum.
They tell us to choose a 650B wheel model for smaller seat tubes.

Crikey. All those deluded manufacturers building 520 mm
seat tube frames on ISO 630 wheels. What were they thinking!

--
Michael Press

Michael Press said:

In article
<[email hidden]>
,

Chris Nelson said:

Rivendell, on the other hand, builds a dizzying number of models that
all basically do the same thing. Namely, they can handle the road and
light off-road duties, have clearance for wide tires and fenders and
have multiple eyelets for adding racks.

One 700C model is made in 570 mm seat tube minimum.
They tell us to choose a 650B wheel model for smaller seat tubes.

Crikey. All those deluded manufacturers building 520 mm
seat tube frames on ISO 630 wheels. What were they thinking!

--
Michael Press

They were thinking they don't give a [censored] about wide tires, fenders
and no TCO on non-touring-wheelbase bikes.

Joe Bernard said:

Michael Press said:

In article
<[email hidden]>
,
Chris Nelson <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Rivendell, on the other hand, builds a dizzying number of models that
all basically do the same thing. Namely, they can handle the road and
light off-road duties, have clearance for wide tires and fenders and
have multiple eyelets for adding racks.

Quoted message said:

One 700C model is made in 570 mm seat tube minimum.
They tell us to choose a 650B wheel model for smaller seat tubes.

Quoted message said:

Crikey. All those deluded manufacturers building 520 mm
seat tube frames on ISO 630 wheels. What were they thinking!

Quoted message said:

--
Michael Press

They were thinking they don't give a [censored] about wide tires, fenders
and no TCO on non-touring-wheelbase bikes.-

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I wonder, is there a place to send a Riv-bot to have them
deprogrammed? ;-)

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Joe Bernard said:

Michael Press said:

In article
<[email hidden]>
,

Chris Nelson said:

Rivendell, on the other hand, builds a dizzying number of models that
all basically do the same thing. Namely, they can handle the road and
light off-road duties, have clearance for wide tires and fenders and
have multiple eyelets for adding racks.

One 700C model is made in 570 mm seat tube minimum.
They tell us to choose a 650B wheel model for smaller seat tubes.

Crikey. All those deluded manufacturers building 520 mm
seat tube frames on ISO 630 wheels. What were they thinking!

They were thinking they don't give a [censored] about wide tires, fenders
and no TCO on non-touring-wheelbase bikes.

I do not get your drift. Please, would you spell it out for me?

--
Michael Press

Michael Press said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Joe Bernard said:

Michael Press said:

In article
<[email hidden]>
,
Chris Nelson <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Rivendell, on the other hand, builds a dizzying number of models that
> all basically do the same thing. Namely, they can handle the road and
> light off-road duties, have clearance for wide tires and fenders and
> have multiple eyelets for adding racks.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

One 700C model is made in 570 mm seat tube minimum.
They tell us to choose a 650B wheel model for smaller seat tubes.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Crikey. All those deluded manufacturers building 520 mm
seat tube frames on ISO 630 wheels. What were they thinking!

Quoted message said:

They were thinking they don't give a [censored] about wide tires, fenders
and no TCO on non-touring-wheelbase bikes.

I do not get your drift. Please, would you spell it out for me?

--
Michael Press- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Actually, the long wheelbase reference is misguided. Even a touring
bike with with fat tires, fenders and 700c wheels is going to have toe-
clip overlap if the toptube isn't long or the fork isn't kicked out
enough.The point of 650B on smaller bikes is to have a shortish
toptube, not-too-slack fork, fat tires and fenders on a roadbike
without TCO. The poster [I've lost track of who it was] wanted to know
why everyone else thinks 700c is fine on small frames. I don't think
these issues are part of the design principle of your average 52cm
Trek road bike, therefore 700c is good enough. Incidentally, I don't
personally think TCO is a huge problem, hence I'm getting a small
Rivendell custom with 700c wheels. I'm just attempting to impress upon
unimpressable people that there is an actual design reason behind the
Country Bikes that are being placed between the road and touring bikes
in Rivendell's line. Apparently this qualifies me as myopic, blind,
brainwashed and a Rivbot which, as you'll recall many ages ago, is
what I expected over here.

On a completely different note, there's some sad/bad stuff going on
around me right now and this silly little discussion has been a
surprisingly satifying diversion from it all for the past week. Thank
you all for your participation in a thread I started called - believe
it or not - Good Wheels, but I probably should get back to reality
now.

Chat with ya later,
Joe

Joe Bernard said:

Michael Press said:

In article
<[email hidden]>
,
Chris Nelson <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Rivendell, on the other hand, builds a dizzying number of models that
all basically do the same thing. Namely, they can handle the road and
light off-road duties, have clearance for wide tires and fenders and
have multiple eyelets for adding racks.

Quoted message said:

One 700C model is made in 570 mm seat tube minimum.
They tell us to choose a 650B wheel model for smaller seat tubes.

Quoted message said:

Crikey. All those deluded manufacturers building 520 mm
seat tube frames on ISO 630 wheels. What were they thinking!

Quoted message said:

--
Michael Press

They were thinking they don't give a [censored] about wide tires, fenders
and no TCO on non-touring-wheelbase bikes.- Hide quoted text -

This thread comes at an odd time because that racks at work have
recently filled with all sorts of fat tire commuters and touring
bikes. From the Novara Transfer at $599 with a dynohub and light,
various versions of the Pilot and Portland and all sorts of other
touring bikes. The Poprad (a cross bike) is very popular, probably
because so many people race cross in PDX.

I don't think there is any shortage of solid touring-type bikes with
lots of fender clearance, rack mounts, wide tires, etc. I think the
market is better than it was twenty years ago. -- Jay Beattie.

landotter? said:

On Jun 25, 11:40 pm, Joe Bernard wrote:

Quoted message said:

...The Homer Simpson is just a
design exercise in wankery so that they could use a particular brake.

The "Homer Simpson" should be the perfect bicycle for "D'oh Boy".

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Does anybody want to talk about wheels? Jobst? Jim Beam? Bueller?

Nah, dismissing a Rivendell apologist is much more fun!

Damn right!

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

-snip-

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Joe Bernard said:

Fat 650Bs are the same diameter as skinny 700c,

Quoted message said:

landotter said:

Fat slick 26" tires approach that of 700c tires as well. Your point?

Michael Press said:

650B are 584 mm
26 " are 559 mm
---------------
difference = 25 mm.
That is a lot to make up.
I do nor argue for or against any tire choice.

You're correct on those rim diameters and 700C are 622mm.
Even so, ample 559 or 650B tires really can be comparable to a 700-20
tire at the outside. 26x2.4 are bigger.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

In article
<[email hidden]>
,

Joe Bernard said:

Michael Press said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Joe Bernard said:

On Jun 26, 3:42 pm, Michael Press <[email hidden]> wrote:
> In article
> <[email hidden]>
> ,
> Chris Nelson <[email hidden]> wrote:
> > Rivendell, on the other hand, builds a dizzying number of models that
> > all basically do the same thing. Namely, they can handle the road and
> > light off-road duties, have clearance for wide tires and fenders and
> > have multiple eyelets for adding racks.

Quoted message said:

> One 700C model is made in 570 mm seat tube minimum.
> They tell us to choose a 650B wheel model for smaller seat tubes.

Quoted message said:

> Crikey. All those deluded manufacturers building 520 mm
> seat tube frames on ISO 630 wheels. What were they thinking!

Quoted message said:

They were thinking they don't give a [censored] about wide tires, fenders
and no TCO on non-touring-wheelbase bikes.

I do not get your drift. Please, would you spell it out for me?

Actually, the long wheelbase reference is misguided. Even a touring
bike with with fat tires, fenders and 700c wheels is going to have toe-
clip overlap if the toptube isn't long or the fork isn't kicked out
enough.The point of 650B on smaller bikes is to have a shortish
toptube, not-too-slack fork, fat tires and fenders on a roadbike
without TCO. The poster [I've lost track of who it was] wanted to know
why everyone else thinks 700c is fine on small frames. I don't think
these issues are part of the design principle of your average 52cm
Trek road bike, therefore 700c is good enough. Incidentally, I don't
personally think TCO is a huge problem, hence I'm getting a small
Rivendell custom with 700c wheels. I'm just attempting to impress upon
unimpressable people that there is an actual design reason behind the
Country Bikes that are being placed between the road and touring bikes
in Rivendell's line. Apparently this qualifies me as myopic, blind,
brainwashed and a Rivbot which, as you'll recall many ages ago, is
what I expected over here.

On a completely different note, there's some sad/bad stuff going on
around me right now and this silly little discussion has been a
surprisingly satifying diversion from it all for the past week. Thank
you all for your participation in a thread I started called - believe
it or not - Good Wheels, but I probably should get back to reality
now.

Happy to help, and thanks for elaborating. Toe clip
overlap is a feature of my bicycle life, an occasional
wake-up-call, and not worth crossing the street to fix.

Regarding your trials, you need to take care of
yourself: buy a bottle of good wine, or a good meal, or
a something you have on your list. You are wise to
involve yourself with others.

--
Michael Press

Michael Press said:

In article
<[email hidden]>
,

Joe Bernard said:

Michael Press said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,
Joe Bernard <[email hidden]> wrote:
> On Jun 26, 3:42 pm, Michael Press <[email hidden]> wrote:
> > In article
> > <[email hidden]>
> > ,
> > Chris Nelson <[email hidden]> wrote:
> > > Rivendell, on the other hand, builds a dizzying number of models that
> > > all basically do the same thing. Namely, they can handle the road and
> > > light off-road duties, have clearance for wide tires and fenders and
> > > have multiple eyelets for adding racks.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > One 700C model is made in 570 mm seat tube minimum.
> > They tell us to choose a 650B wheel model for smaller seat tubes.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > Crikey. All those deluded manufacturers building 520 mm
> > seat tube frames on ISO 630 wheels. What were they thinking!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> They were thinking they don't give a [censored] about wide tires, fenders
> and no TCO on non-touring-wheelbase bikes.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I do not get your drift. Please, would you spell it out for me?

Quoted message said:

Actually, the long wheelbase reference is misguided. Even a touring
bike with with fat tires, fenders and 700c wheels is going to have toe-
clip overlap if the toptube isn't long or the fork isn't kicked out
enough.The point of 650B on smaller bikes is to have a shortish
toptube, not-too-slack fork, fat tires and fenders on a roadbike
without TCO. The poster [I've lost track of who it was] wanted to know
why everyone else thinks 700c is fine on small frames. I don't think
these issues are part of the design principle of your average 52cm
Trek road bike, therefore 700c is good enough. Incidentally, I don't
personally think TCO is a huge problem, hence I'm getting a small
Rivendell custom with 700c wheels. I'm just attempting to impress upon
unimpressable people that there is an actual design reason behind the
Country Bikes that are being placed between the road and touring bikes
in Rivendell's line. Apparently this qualifies me as myopic, blind,
brainwashed and a Rivbot which, as you'll recall many ages ago, is
what I expected over here.

Quoted message said:

On a completely different note, there's some sad/bad stuff going on
around me right now and this silly little discussion has been a
surprisingly satifying diversion from it all for the past week. Thank
you all for your participation in a thread I started called - believe
it or not - Good Wheels, but I probably should get back to reality
now.

Happy to help, and thanks for elaborating. Toe clip
overlap is a feature of my bicycle life, an occasional
wake-up-call, and not worth crossing the street to fix.

I actually like some toe clip overlap. When I'm stopped at a light, I
can rest my toe against the tire to keep the wheel/handlebars from
flopping around.

Michael Press said:

Joe Bernard wrote:
...

Quoted message said:

On a completely different note, there's some sad/bad stuff going on
around me right now and this silly little discussion has been a
surprisingly satifying diversion from it all for the past week. Thank
you all for your participation in a thread I started called - believe
it or not - Good Wheels, but I probably should get back to reality
now.

Happy to help, and thanks for elaborating. Toe clip
overlap is a feature of my bicycle life, an occasional
wake-up-call, and not worth crossing the street to fix.

Regarding your trials, you need to take care of
yourself: buy a bottle of good wine, or a good meal, or
a something you have on your list. You are wise to
involve yourself with others.

Trials should be born in stoic silence.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

Hank Wirtz said:

On Jun 26, 9:48 pm, Michael Press wrote:
...

Quoted message said:

Happy to help, and thanks for elaborating. Toe clip
overlap is a feature of my bicycle life, an occasional
wake-up-call, and not worth crossing the street to fix.

I actually like some toe clip overlap. When I'm stopped at a light, I
can rest my toe against the tire to keep the wheel/handlebars from
flopping around.

I can do that with my heel.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

Johnny Sunset said:

Michael Press said:

Joe Bernard wrote:
...

Quoted message said:

On a completely different note, there's some sad/bad stuff going on
around me right now and this silly little discussion has been a
surprisingly satifying diversion from it all for the past week. Thank
you all for your participation in a thread I started called - believe
it or not - Good Wheels, but I probably should get back to reality
now.

Quoted message said:

Happy to help, and thanks for elaborating. Toe clip
overlap is a feature of my bicycle life, an occasional
wake-up-call, and not worth crossing the street to fix.

Quoted message said:

Regarding your trials, you need to take care of
yourself: buy a bottle of good wine, or a good meal, or
a something you have on your list. You are wise to
involve yourself with others.

Trials should be born in stoic silence.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Stoic silence? You should try it.

Joe Bernard said:

Johnny Sunset said:

On Jun 26, 11:48 pm, Michael Press wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Joe Bernard wrote:
...
> On a completely different note, there's some sad/bad stuff going on
> around me right now and this silly little discussion has been a
> surprisingly satifying diversion from it all for the past week. Thank
> you all for your participation in a thread I started called - believe
> it or not - Good Wheels, but I probably should get back to reality
> now.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Happy to help, and thanks for elaborating. Toe clip
overlap is a feature of my bicycle life, an occasional
wake-up-call, and not worth crossing the street to fix.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Regarding your trials, you need to take care of
yourself: buy a bottle of good wine, or a good meal, or
a something you have on your list. You are wise to
involve yourself with others.

Quoted message said:

Trials should be born in stoic silence.

Quoted message said:

- Show quoted text -

Stoic silence? You should try it.

gnaww [1], this it too much fun. Especially the religious flame wars
over Mavic rims, compact geometry frames, brifters on non-racing
bicycles, 650B wheels, etc,

[1] Gratuitous gdanielsism.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

Johnny Sunset said:

Joe Bernard said:

On Jun 26, 10:14 pm, Johnny Sunset wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Jun 26, 11:48 pm, Michael Press wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Joe Bernard wrote:
> ...
> > On a completely different note, there's some sad/bad stuff going on
> > around me right now and this silly little discussion has been a
> > surprisingly satifying diversion from it all for the past week. Thank
> > you all for your participation in a thread I started called - believe
> > it or not - Good Wheels, but I probably should get back to reality
> > now.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Happy to help, and thanks for elaborating. Toe clip
> overlap is a feature of my bicycle life, an occasional
> wake-up-call, and not worth crossing the street to fix.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Regarding your trials, you need to take care of
> yourself: buy a bottle of good wine, or a good meal, or
> a something you have on your list. You are wise to
> involve yourself with others.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Trials should be born in stoic silence.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

- Show quoted text -

Quoted message said:

Stoic silence? You should try it.

gnaww [1], this it too much fun. Especially the religious flame wars
over Mavic rims, compact geometry frames, brifters on non-racing
bicycles, 650B wheels, etc,

[1] Gratuitous gdanielsism.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Holler all you want about that stuff. I thought you were going after
me for mentioning my "trials" which, for the record, aren't actually
mine, but, my friend's. I'm bummed about it, of course, but it ain't
about me, know what I mean? Sorry if I misunderstood you.

Johnny Sunset said:

Hank Wirtz said:

On Jun 26, 9:48 pm, Michael Press wrote:
...

Quoted message said:

Happy to help, and thanks for elaborating. Toe clip
overlap is a feature of my bicycle life, an occasional
wake-up-call, and not worth crossing the street to fix.

I actually like some toe clip overlap. When I'm stopped at a light, I
can rest my toe against the tire to keep the wheel/handlebars from
flopping around.

I can do that with my heel.

LOL

--
JT
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