GPS map display question

Mike said:

My question - is this sort of detail dependant on the GPS
maps you buy, or the GPS itself? If it's the maps, which
GPS maps include actual topographic details for the UK?

None as far as I'm aware, that's only in America. "Mapping"
GPS units only show roads, coastline, lakes and a few
rivers, they are no substitute for using a real map. In
fact, from a walking point of view mapping GPS units are a
waste of time, their only real use is for driving (or if
cycling along roads). Non-mapping GPS units are just as good
for walking, although it can sometimes be helpful to know
where the nearest road is.

Quoted message said:

I guess I had this idea that if I got a GPS, I'd
essentially have an electronic version of an OS map. I'm
now thinking this isn't the case,

Nope. At it's simplest it's a device which gives you a
grid ref which tells you where you are on the map, but
when used efficiently it's a device that can store
hundreds of waypoints and routes to help you navigate
around. You can input these by hand but it's very time
consuming, far easier to do it via computer software. A
good selection of waypoints makes GPS navigation a breeze
and if you've planned them well you often don't need to
look at the map at all.

Rather than buying an expensive mapping GPS, it's more
efficient to buy a non-mapping model and spend the money you
save on some good computer software to go with it.

Quoted message said:

but it'd be great if someone could tell me otherwise.

There is another option where you can link a GPS to a pocket
computer running "moving map" software but the technology is
still in it's early stages. They tend to be non-waterproof
and the batteries don't last very long. Others here can tell
you more about them.

Paul
--
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On 4/4/04 12:12 am, in article
[email hidden], "Mike"

Quoted message said:

My question - is this sort of detail dependant on the GPS
maps you buy, or the GPS itself? If it's the maps, which
GPS maps include actual topographic details for the UK?

Am in the same situation but spent a fair amount of time at
the Outdoor Show yesterday understanding all of this.
Magellan - with their Sport Trak Colour - can download OS
maps. These show much of what you would expect on an OS map.
How useable this is when you are on the mountain I'm not so
sure but the display quality was better than I expected. At
£240 this seemed to represent reasonable value for money.

With the Garmin line you will probably have to look to the
new (and very expensive) models which have colour screens.
These screens are impressive although there are non in the
shops at the moment and retailers told me at the show that
they had heard that there were problems with the display!
But, as yet, Garmin do not have access to OS data although
they say that this is coming soon - they claimed they were
working on translating OS data to Garmin format which seemed
a bit odd to me.

So - at the moment - I think you would need the colour
display Magellan which does look reasonable value for money
at the moment. Expect to pay another £100 for the OS CD data
but you can probably buy this separately.

I must admit I didn't find either company particularly
helpful. I would have bought one but neither company could
really tell me how to interface with a Mac - Magellan
telling me that this wouldn't work. A bit of research shows
me that there is a perfectly good piece of 3rd party
software which works well. And Garmin weren't selling
anything - but then they had no new models in the country!

One obvious funny. I saw Cameron McNeish doing a
presentation with a Mac laptop. Ah-ha I thought. So asked
him whether he used a GPS (thought he might just know how to
do it - there was no cyber café at the show). Of course, he
didn't - 'I use a little bit of plastic called a compass'.

Should have guessed at this response :-)

--
Andy Howell Birmingham, UK

I think that none of the Garmin or Magellan mapping GPS
receivers can download OS maps. Garmins accept only maps
from their MapSource CDs and Magellans only maps from their
MapSend CDs. If you really appreciate the beautiful 1:25k OS
maps, the only way to use them is with MemoryMap Navigator
for pocketPC (not Palm) and PC. Both versions come together.
So, you need to connect a GPS receiver (mapping or non-
mapping) to a pocketPC. We used it in SW England and it is
really fantastic. But carrying two electronic devices when
walking is not ideal. Solution: Choose a GPS receiver with a
connector for an external antenna. With the external antenna
ON your hat, you can leave the GPS receiver IN your pocket
and you only have to carry the pocketPC. There are very good
bags from AquaPac to protect the pocketPC against rain.
Instead of a 'normal' GPS receiver, you can also use a GPS
Mouse. This is a GPS receiver in a small housing, without
screen or buttons. All alone, it can not do much, but
connected to a pocketPC with the right software, it will
give you GPS navigation with beautiful colour maps.

Look around on our site and you will find a lot of ideas.

Best regards

--
Andreas van Hooijdonk gps-practice-and-fun.comgps-practice-and-fun.comOpen ↗

"Andy Howell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 4/4/04 12:12 am, in article
[email hidden], "Mike"

Quoted message said:

My question - is this sort of detail dependant on the
GPS maps you buy, or the GPS itself? If it's the maps,
which GPS maps include actual topographic details for
the UK?

Am in the same situation but spent a fair amount of
time at the

Outdoor Show

Quoted message said:

yesterday understanding all of this. Magellan - with their
Sport Trak Colour - can download OS maps. These show much
of what you would

expect on

Quoted message said:

an OS map. How useable this is when you are on the
mountain I'm not

so sure

Quoted message said:

but the display quality was better than I expected. At
£240 this

seemed to

Quoted message said:

represent reasonable value for money.

With the Garmin line you will probably have to look to the
new (and

very

Quoted message said:

expensive) models which have colour screens. These
screens are

impressive

Quoted message said:

although there are non in the shops at the moment and
retailers told

me at

Quoted message said:

the show that they had heard that there were problems
with the

display!

Quoted message said:

But, as yet, Garmin do not have access to OS data although
they say

that

Quoted message said:

this is coming soon - they claimed they were working on
translating OS

data

Quoted message said:

to Garmin format which seemed a bit odd to me.

So - at the moment - I think you would need the
colour display

Magellan

Quoted message said:

which does look reasonable value for money at the moment.
Expect to

pay

Quoted message said:

another £100 for the OS CD data but you can probably
buy this

separately.

Quoted message said:

I must admit I didn't find either company particularly
helpful. I

would have

Quoted message said:

bought one but neither company could really tell me how to
interface

with a

Quoted message said:

Mac - Magellan telling me that this wouldn't work. A bit
of research

shows

Quoted message said:

me that there is a perfectly good piece of 3rd party
software which

works

Quoted message said:

well. And Garmin weren't selling anything - but then they
had no new

models

Quoted message said:

in the country!

One obvious funny. I saw Cameron McNeish doing a
presentation with a

Mac

Quoted message said:

laptop. Ah-ha I thought. So asked him whether he used a
GPS (thought

he

Quoted message said:

might just know how to do it - there was no cyber café at
the show).

Of

Quoted message said:

course, he didn't - 'I use a little bit of plastic called
a compass'.

Should have guessed at this response :-)

--
Andy Howell Birmingham, UK

Andy Howell said:

Quoted message said:

My question - is this sort of detail dependant on the GPS
maps you buy, or the GPS itself? If it's the maps, which
GPS maps include actual topographic details for the UK?

Am in the same situation but spent a fair amount of time
at the Outdoor Show yesterday understanding all of this.
Magellan - with their Sport Trak Colour - can download
OS maps.

No they can't, at least not in the sense that we currently
understand the phrase "downloading an OS map". GPS units use
vector information whereas map downloads are bitmap files.
GPS units can't load bitmaps.

The SporTrak Color is no different to other mapping GPS
units other than the fact that it shows info in different
colours, but the info shown is basically just a roadmap. ht-
tp://www.magellangps.com/en/products/product.asp?PRODID=918

Are you sure you weren't confusing it with something else,
like a pocket PC connected to a SporTrak? Programs like
Anquet and MM run on Pocket PCs and can be run in
conjunction with a GPS. This is the only method I currently
know of which enables you to use OS mapping with a GPS.

Quoted message said:

These show much of what you would expect on an OS map.

Much of? So not the same as an OS map then? It is
theoretically possible that the unit could download vector
OS data but I wasn't aware that the OS were licencing that
data to GPS manufacturers. Perhaps this is a welcome new
development? I hope so.

Currently the only GPS topographical data available is for
North America only, and can be used by all the Magellan map
models, not just the SporTrak Color. magellangps-magellangps-Open ↗
.com/en/products/product.asp?PRODID=113

Garmin also has 24k topo data, again for the US only. As you
can see from the screenshots at the bottom of the page, what
you see on the GPS screen is somewhat simpler than the full
map that you see on the PC screen. Still excellent for a GPS
though.
garmin.comtopo24knp.jspOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

How useable this is when you are on the mountain I'm not
so sure but the display quality was better than I
expected.

Given that non-mapping GPS units are highly usable then it
will undoubtedly be extremely useable. Any topographical
data will be a big help.

Quoted message said:

At £240 this seemed to represent reasonable value
for money.

How cheap? GPS Warehouse lists it at £295 including VAT,
reduced from an RRP of £375.
gpsw.co.ukprod1368.htmlOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

With the Garmin line you will probably have to look to the
new (and very expensive) models which have colour screens.
These screens are impressive although there are non in the
shops at the moment and retailers told me at the show that
they had heard that there were problems with the display!

Yes, they look great, first colour models with 256 colours.
garmin.comgpsmap60csOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

But, as yet, Garmin do not have access to OS data although
they say that this is coming soon

Really? Good news if this is true.

Quoted message said:

- they claimed they were working on translating OS data to
Garmin format which seemed a bit odd to me.

Not at all. It's vector data, not bitmap. All GPS
manufacturers have their own format. The advantage of vector
data is that it can be zoomed in and out without loss of
resolution, unlike a bitmap which pixellates when you zoom
in. The problem is that as you zoom out there's too much
information on the screen so details have to be filtered
out. So for example with a road map, if you zoom out you'd
only be able to see the major roads, but if you zoom in
you'd see all the side streets. They'd have to do the same
with the topo data, when you zoom out they'd have to filter
out contour lines, minor rivers etc. The maps need to be
useable at all the different zoom levels.

Quoted message said:

So - at the moment - I think you would need the colour
display Magellan which does look reasonable value for
money at the moment. Expect to pay another £100 for the OS
CD data but you can probably buy this separately.

What? Only £100? For the whole UK? Only if the data is
simplified considerably. The bitmap data from Anquet or MM
costs at least double that.

Quoted message said:

I must admit I didn't find either company particularly
helpful. I would have bought one but neither company could
really tell me how to interface with a Mac - Magellan
telling me that this wouldn't work.

Computer support for GPS is actually quite limited. Lowrance
won't work with Anquet for example. They only recently added
support for Magellan. Garmin is the most widely supported.

Paul
--
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photosig.comuserphotosOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

Mike said:

My question - is this sort of detail dependant on the
GPS maps you buy, or the GPS itself? If it's the maps,
which GPS maps include actual topographic details for
the UK?

Paul replied: There is another option where you can link a
GPS to a pocket computer running "moving map" software but
the technology is still in it's early stages. They tend to
be non-waterproof and the batteries don't last very long.
Others here can tell you more about them.

I have had a Garmin for some time and have come to the
conclusion that a paper map with the walking track marked
on it together with the track uploaded into the Garmin
provides everything I need to navigate walking routes.

The method I use is to scan the portion of the OS 1:25000
map I need, register this image into oziexplorer software,
use oziexplorer to mark the track (with waypoints as well)
then upload this into my Garmin.

Then I print the map portion with the track marked on it
from oziexplorer and put this into my waterproof map wallet.
When out walking it is really easy to spot from the track
display on the Garmin where I am on the map. If it becomes
really tight, I can use the grid ref in the Garmin to pin
point my location. So I have found a moving map isn't really
necessary and therefore a pocket PC is unnecessary.

Hope this helps.

Regards

David Taylor

Andy Howell <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

I saw Cameron McNeish doing a presentation with a Mac
laptop. Ah-ha I thought. So asked him whether he used a
GPS (thought he might just know how to do it - there was
no cyber café at the show). Of course, he didn't - 'I use
a little bit of plastic called a compass'.

Should have guessed at this response :-)

Yes, there's a certain amount of inverse snobbery with
regard to GPS v magnetic compass. :-)

This is the equivalent of having a calculator but working
things out with a pencil and paper or mental arithmetic.
Useful to be able to do it, when you have the time.

I find that apart from planning and navigating a route you
can have a lorra lorra fun with a GPS, such as plotting the
track on a map when you get home and analysing both walks
and car journeys. I very often do this to work out the best
route from A to B, and see just how much more the 'fast'
route by motorway costs in terms of distance, as against
time saved.

I used my Vista in conjunction with Mapsource Roads & Rec on
Friday to find a tyre vulcanising company. I had the address
on a busy Manchester main road, so I found it in Mapsource,
plotted a waypoint there and a few others en route, and
uploaded to the GPS. It made it much easier to pinpoint the
place as I approached by car, just glancing at the screen as
traffic permitted.

I used the same method when visiting friends for the first
time last Wednesday. They were surprised that I didn't need
directions to get there......

For walking I scan an OS 1:25,000 map and print out an A4
section as required, complete with waypoints of the route
and adjacent places of interest.

I may buy the Anquet 1:25,000 CD for my favourite area if
it can be uploaded into the GPS, but I'm still not clear
whether this can be done, even after much discussion in
the group.

I bought the Mapping Vista in the USA for less than I paid
for my non- mapping Summit in the UK.......

To sum up my attitude: if you can afford a mapping GPS it
can do everything the simple ones can, and much more.
--
Gordon

Gordon said:

Quoted message said:

Of course, he didn't - 'I use a little bit of plastic
called a compass'.

Quoted message said:

Yes, there's a certain amount of inverse snobbery with
regard to GPS v magnetic compass. :-)

Not only that but many people seem to be proud of their
ignorance of modern technology. They might as well wear t-
shirts proclaiming; "I'm a technophobe!"

Quoted message said:

This is the equivalent of having a calculator but working
things out with a pencil and paper or mental arithmetic.
Useful to be able to do it, when you have the time.

But why would you want to?

Quoted message said:

I may buy the Anquet 1:25,000 CD for my favourite area if
it can be uploaded into the GPS, but I'm still not clear
whether this can be done, even after much discussion in
the group.

No, it can't.

The latest Garmin models have 256 colour displays and look
very nice. There's a new map model, the 60C and 60CS, and
the 76 and 76S have been upgraded to 76C and 76CS (C
standing for colour of course - the S models have barometer
and electronic compass). I thought it was odd that the new
model has a lower number but comparing the stats it seems
that the 76 still has better features, so the top specified
handheld model in the Garmin range is now the 76CS.

Anyway, the point I'm coming to is that if Andy Howell is
correct about Garmin converting OS data to Garmin format,
then the best option may be to buy the 76CS and the Garmin
OS CD when (if?) it becomes available.

Or the SporTrak Color plus OS data CD if it really is
available (or will be soon). I'd prefer the Garmin option
because of the barometer & 10,000 track points.

Paul
--
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David Taylor said:

I have had a Garmin for some time and have come to the
conclusion that a paper map with the walking track marked
on it together with the track uploaded into the Garmin
provides everything I need to navigate walking routes.

I find that just putting in a bunch of waypoints is
sufficient to keep me navigationally happy, without
bothering with a print of the route.

Quoted message said:

So I have found a moving map isn't really necessary and
therefore a pocket PC is unnecessary.

True. While a Pocket PC would be very nice it would also be
a lot more hassle. The bottom line is that I don't go out
walking to stare at my GPS all day, most of the time I just
switch it on, stick it in a pouch and forget about it, only
taking it out if I need to waymark a summit or other
feature, or heaven forbid, if I actually need to do some
navigation with it! ;-)

While the compass vs. GPS argument is pretty daft, since the
GPS is clearly superior, the GPS vs. GPS & Pocket PC
argument isn't so daft. The latter may provide prettier
pictures but doesn't give you any more functionality than a
GPS on it's own. It mainly just looks prettier (although
could be useful for micro navigation in complex terrain).

The next step in GPS evolution is full colour topo maps in
the GPS itself, which will be far less hassle than
connecting it to a Pocket PC. I'll certainly be getting
one of those. Although it may not do much more than a non-
mapping GPS with waypoints and routes pre-loaded, it will
still be just as useable even if you don't enter waypoints
and routes in advance. (It should also be easy to add new
waypoints by simply scrolling the map to the point you
want to mark.)

Paul
--
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"Paul Saunders" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Yes, there's a certain amount of inverse snobbery with
regard to GPS v magnetic compass. :-)

Quoted message said:

Not only that but many people seem to be proud of their
ignorance of modern technology. They might as well wear
t-shirts proclaiming; "I'm a technophobe!"

Ah, come the revolution brother when civilization is
in disarray and every Tesco's has long since been
looted of it's supplies of batteries and boil in the
bag ready meals...

Mapsend Topo is now available for GB, at least they were
selling it on the stand at the outdoor show.

Jon

"Paul Saunders" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Andy Howell said:

Quoted message said:

>

Currently the only GPS topographical data available is for
North America only, and can be used by all the Magellan
map models, not just the SporTrak Color. magel-magel-Open ↗
langps.com/en/products/product.asp?PRODID=113

"David Taylor" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have had a Garmin for some time and have come to the
conclusion that a paper map with the walking track marked
on it together with the track uploaded into the Garmin
provides everything I need to navigate walking routes.

The method I use is to scan the portion of the OS 1:25000
map I need, register this image into oziexplorer software,
use oziexplorer to mark the track (with waypoints as well)
then upload this into my Garmin.

Then I print the map portion with the track marked on it
from oziexplorer and put this into my waterproof map
wallet. When out walking it is really easy to spot from
the track display on the Garmin where I am on the map.

If

Quoted message said:

it becomes really tight, I can use the grid ref in the
Garmin to pin point my location. So I have found a moving
map isn't really necessary and therefore a pocket PC is
unnecessary.

Hope this helps.

Kind of similar here Dave, but I've invested in Memory Map.
I make up the route on Memory Map, upload it to my GPS and
print off the map. Normally this takes no more than 5
minutes in total. Prior to getting my "missing disk" of a
walking area, I did same as you but used GPSU and downloaded
map off the web. Thankfully it was a small area......

KRO

Quoted message said:

With the Garmin line you will probably have to look to the
new (and very expensive) models which have colour screens.
These screens are impressive although there are non in the
shops at the moment and retailers told me at the show that
they had heard that there were problems with the display!
But, as yet, Garmin do not have access to OS data although
they say that this is coming soon - they claimed they were
working on translating OS data to Garmin format which
seemed a bit odd to me.

AIUI the Garmin GPSRs don't understand maps in a bitmap
format. For this reason it's necessary for one piece of SW
or another to translate the map data into the objects that
are capable of being encoded in Garmins map file format.
It's good to hear that Garmin are actually doing something
about that, because the idea of having to laboriously
trace every interesting feature from a 50k or 25k map by
hand using a 3rd party piece of SW does not seem very
attractive tstl.

--
Boo

Magellan ARE using OS map data on their colour models - I
was admiring it yesterday !!!

--
Andy Howell Birmingham, UK

On 4/4/04 2:54 pm, in article [email hidden], "Paul

Saunders said:

Anyway, the point I'm coming to is that if Andy Howell is
correct about Garmin converting OS data to Garmin format,
then the best option may be to buy the 76CS and the Garmin
OS CD when (if?) it becomes available.

Or the SporTrak Color plus OS data CD if it really is
available (or will be soon). I'd prefer the Garmin option
because of the barometer & 10,000 track points.

I would be a bit suspicious about Garmin and OS. Magellan
were pushing the OS data link like mad at the Outdoor Show
(not a bad marketing tool I guess). Garmin were telling
everybody that they we working with OS and expected to be
able to announce something soon! Mind you, they don't seem
to have the 76CS in the Country at the moment. They were
telling people who visited the stall to go and visit the
Oswald Bailey stall if you wanted to buy them. The nice
people at Oswald Bailey were going mad. Apparently they
had £50K worth of kit on order and it hadn't appeared -
they were convinced that the only 76CS in the country was
on the Garmin Stand. Of course, everyone would have taken
an order for you !

The Sportrak does have a barometer!

--
Andy Howell Birmingham, UK

doesn't have to be colour. I wanted to see the TOPO s/ware
on a b/w device but they couldn't show me that. maybe it
looks too [censored]!

Jon

"Andy Howell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Magellan ARE using OS map data on their colour models - I
was admiring it yesterday !!!

--
Andy Howell Birmingham, UK

"Paul Saunders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Anyway, the point I'm coming to is that if Andy Howell is
correct about Garmin converting OS data to Garmin format,
then the best option may be to buy the 76CS and the Garmin
OS CD when (if?) it becomes available.

Or the SporTrak Color plus OS data CD if it really is
available (or will be soon). I'd prefer the Garmin option
because of the barometer & 10,000 track points.

Paul

The Sportrak color has a barometer. However, it's used for
pressure measurement (i.e. weather trends) rather than
altitude. It also has a compass that doesn't have to be
held flat.

I'm fairly sure it doesn't have 10000 track points (maybe
2500 ??), but all the Meridian models (including the
Platinum, which also has a barometer) can save the current
track to an SD card. This gives an extremely large track
memory (256 Mbyte ..) provided you don't mind saving the
track in segments.

Magellan claim the OS mapping will be available on May 3rd.
The maps have a good deal less content than the printed maps
: in particular, they don't have buildings (because the OS
digital map layer apparently doesn't distinguish isolated
barns from urban sprawl, so the maps would be too cluttered
if they were to be included). I also noticed a tendency for
footpaths to fade away in places : apparently this is also a
failing of the digital mapping supplied by the OS (which is
not the same data from which Memory Map etc. is derived).
They do have a height database though, which can generate
either contours or path profiles.

The OS has insisted that the software can only load a single
64MB map image onto the GPS. I'm not sure how big that is,
but it has to be a rectangular region and looks as though it
might be something around the size of a county.

-adrian

"Andreas van Hooijdonk" <[email hidden] (NOZ)> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I think that none of the Garmin or Magellan mapping GPS
receivers can download OS maps. Garmins accept only maps
from their MapSource CDs and Magellans only maps from
their MapSend CDs.

Yes, but Mapsend maps will shortly be available with OS-
derived data.

Quoted message said:

If you really appreciate the beautiful 1:25k OS maps,

.. unfortunately , they're nowhere near as nice as
1:25k OS maps.

Quoted message said:

the only way to use them is with MemoryMap Navigator for
pocketPC (not Palm) and PC. Both versions come together.
So, you need to connect a GPS receiver (mapping or non-
mapping) to a pocketPC. We used it in SW England and it is
really fantastic.

I thought Memory map only had 1:25k maps for selected
regions ?
1:50k for everywhere, though. There is a company with all
1:25k regions, but they cost 25 UKP per map (equivalent to
1 OS sheet).

Quoted message said:

But carrying two electronic devices when walking is not
ideal. Solution: Choose a GPS receiver with a connector
for an external antenna. With the external antenna ON your
hat, you can leave the GPS receiver IN your pocket and you
only have to carry the pocketPC. There are very good bags
from AquaPac to protect the pocketPC against rain. Instead
of a 'normal' GPS receiver, you can also use a GPS Mouse.
This is a GPS receiver in a small housing, without screen
or buttons. All alone, it can not do much, but connected
to a pocketPC with the right software, it will give you
GPS navigation with beautiful colour maps.

Fo a more convenient arrangement, you could use a pocket PC
with bluetooth and an bluetooth GPS receiver (on your hat,
or rucksack top pocket). This would put the GPS receiver
exactly where you want it, and leave you with only one item
to hold and no wires. However, battery life might be short.
Bluetooth seems to cripple pocket PCs.

-adrian

Andy Howell said:

Magellan ARE using OS map data on their colour models - I
was admiring it yesterday !!!

Well that's really good news. I must admit that I found it
hard to believe at first.

Paul
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JRS said:

doesn't have to be colour. I wanted to see the TOPO s/ware
on a b/w device but they couldn't show me that. maybe it
looks too [censored]!

Bottom of the page.
garmin.comtopo24knp.jspOpen ↗

Paul
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