GPS track log Fan y Big ??

Jim Hutton said:

I was up there today testing out my footpath map, which
was perfect until we got onto the ridge to Fan y Big, when
we appeared to stray off track.

The gps track looks fine, no missing points or oddities,
except that when overlaid on an aerial photo it isn't in
the right place !

OS maps and grids aren't perfect. The aerial photo may not
be perfectly aligned. What software were you using? Which
footpath map were you using? Was it the top of the ridge
that was the problem? ROW or footpath?

Paul
--
wilderness-wales.co.ukwilderness-wales.co.ukOpen ↗
wildwales.fsnet.co.ukwildwales.fsnet.co.ukOpen ↗
photosig.comuserphotosOpen ↗

Paul Saunders said:

Jim Hutton said:

I was up there today testing out my footpath map, which
was perfect until we got onto the ridge to Fan y Big,
when we appeared to stray off track.

The gps track looks fine, no missing points or oddities,
except that when overlaid on an aerial photo it isn't in
the right place !

OS maps and grids aren't perfect. The aerial photo may not
be perfectly aligned. What software were you using? Which
footpath map were you using? Was it the top of the ridge
that was the problem? ROW or footpath?

Paul

Thanks for reply Paul.

The aerial photo was the 1:25k Memory Map one, using their
software. I cross checked against other maps set up in
OZIExplorer, which of course might not have been aligned
correctly EXCEPT that all except this one bit of an entire
days walking fitted exactly onto the maps/photos.

The footpath map is one I am developing for Garmin mapping
GPS, using a program called GPSMapper which allows me to
create uploadable footpath maps. Because of OS copyright I
can't just use their maps directly, so I am basing the maps
on old (pre-1948) maps and logging the footpaths on foot.

When I overlaid this particular tracklog onto my various
maps, it all fitted perfectly except for a section along the
ridge leading to Fan y Big, and the descent.

So I am a bit concerned if I have a gps tracklog which
matches all the other info except in one (rather vital)
place. Rather shakes my faith in the little magic machine.
Hence my request for anyone who has a tracklog covering
Fan y Big.

Jim

Jim Hutton said:

On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 01:53:20 +0100, "Paul Saunders"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Jim Hutton wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I was up there today testing out my footpath map, which
was perfect until we got onto the ridge to Fan y Big,
when we appeared to stray off track.

The gps track looks fine, no missing points or oddities,
except that when overlaid on an aerial photo it isn't in
the right place !

OS maps and grids aren't perfect. The aerial photo may not
be perfectly aligned. What software were you using? Which
footpath map were you using? Was it the top of the ridge
that was the problem? ROW or footpath?

Paul

Quoted message said:

Thanks for reply Paul.

Quoted message said:

The aerial photo was the 1:25k Memory Map one, using their
software. I cross checked against other maps set up in
OZIExplorer, which of course might not have been aligned
correctly EXCEPT that all except this one bit of an entire
days walking fitted exactly onto the maps/photos.

Quoted message said:

The footpath map is one I am developing for Garmin mapping
GPS, using a program called GPSMapper which allows me to
create uploadable footpath maps. Because of OS copyright I
can't just use their maps directly, so I am basing the maps
on old (pre-1948) maps and logging the footpaths on foot.

Quoted message said:

When I overlaid this particular tracklog onto my various
maps, it all fitted perfectly except for a section along
the ridge leading to Fan y Big, and the descent.

Quoted message said:

So I am a bit concerned if I have a gps tracklog which
matches all the other info except in one (rather vital)
place. Rather shakes my faith in the little magic machine.
Hence my request for anyone who has a tracklog covering
Fan y Big.

Is the shape of the track correct, but it has a
consistent offset?

How does it get offset? Does it gradually deviate from a
good track into the offset track? Does it suddenly jump? Did
it lose sat lock and recover, or get switched off and on,
between good tracking and offset tracking?

Similar questions apply to how the offset stopped? Did it
gradually correct itself? Suddenly? When it lost sat lock
and recovered? Got switched off?

Is the place where the offset tracking started an isolated
high place, or is it near something higher which would
significantly affect skyview?

--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
["]http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

How far out was the track? don't forget that accuracy of a
handheld can be as much as 15m out or more under some
conditions.

--
Best Regards David Harrison-Wood www.gps4less.co.uk

"Jim Hutton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Paul Saunders said:

Jim Hutton said:

I was up there today testing out my footpath map, which
was perfect until we got onto the ridge to Fan y Big,
when we appeared to stray off track.

The gps track looks fine, no missing points or
oddities, except that when overlaid on an aerial photo
it isn't in the right place !

OS maps and grids aren't perfect. The aerial photo may
not be perfectly aligned. What software were you using?
Which footpath map were you using? Was it the top of the
ridge that was the problem? ROW or footpath?

Paul

Thanks for reply Paul.

The aerial photo was the 1:25k Memory Map one, using their
software. I cross checked against other maps set up in
OZIExplorer, which of course might not have been aligned
correctly EXCEPT that all except this one bit of an entire
days walking fitted exactly onto the maps/photos.

The footpath map is one I am developing for Garmin
mapping GPS, using a program called GPSMapper which
allows me to create uploadable footpath maps. Because of
OS copyright I can't just use their maps directly, so I
am basing the maps on old (pre-1948) maps and logging the
footpaths on foot.

When I overlaid this particular tracklog onto my various
maps, it all fitted perfectly except for a section along
the ridge leading to Fan y Big, and the descent.

So I am a bit concerned if I have a gps tracklog which
matches all the other info except in one (rather vital)
place. Rather shakes my faith in the little magic machine.
Hence my request for anyone who has a tracklog covering
Fan y Big.

Jim

On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 14:04:21 +0000 (UTC), [email hidden] (Chris

Malcolm) said:

Jim Hutton said:

On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 01:53:20 +0100, "Paul Saunders"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Jim Hutton wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> I was up there today testing out my footpath map, which
> was perfect until we got onto the ridge to Fan y Big,
> when we appeared to stray off track.
>
> The gps track looks fine, no missing points or
> oddities, except that when overlaid on an aerial photo
> it isn't in the right place !

OS maps and grids aren't perfect. The aerial photo may
not be perfectly aligned. What software were you using?
Which footpath map were you using? Was it the top of the
ridge that was the problem? ROW or footpath?

Paul

Quoted message said:

Thanks for reply Paul.

Quoted message said:

The aerial photo was the 1:25k Memory Map one, using their
software. I cross checked against other maps set up in
OZIExplorer, which of course might not have been aligned
correctly EXCEPT that all except this one bit of an entire
days walking fitted exactly onto the maps/photos.

Quoted message said:

The footpath map is one I am developing for Garmin
mapping GPS, using a program called GPSMapper which
allows me to create uploadable footpath maps. Because of
OS copyright I can't just use their maps directly, so I
am basing the maps on old (pre-1948) maps and logging the
footpaths on foot.

Quoted message said:

When I overlaid this particular tracklog onto my various
maps, it all fitted perfectly except for a section along
the ridge leading to Fan y Big, and the descent.

Quoted message said:

So I am a bit concerned if I have a gps tracklog which
matches all the other info except in one (rather vital)
place. Rather shakes my faith in the little magic machine.
Hence my request for anyone who has a tracklog covering
Fan y Big.

Is the shape of the track correct, but it has a
consistent offset?

How does it get offset? Does it gradually deviate from a
good track into the offset track? Does it suddenly jump?
Did it lose sat lock and recover, or get switched off and
on, between good tracking and offset tracking?

Similar questions apply to how the offset stopped? Did it
gradually correct itself? Suddenly? When it lost sat lock
and recovered? Got switched off?

Is the place where the offset tracking started an isolated
high place, or is it near something higher which would
significantly affect skyview?

Yes, all questions I ask myself. If it had been just loss of
lock I wouldn't have expected what I got. I have seen enough
tracks with lost lock to recognise it. Incidentally, the
wiggly bits are due to the zig-zags of the beautifully
restored descent path faithfully followed.

I have very bravely attached a .gif of the offending bit
which shows what happened. Apologies for a binary in a NB
group, but it's only a little one ... Anyone who wants the
whole track (OZI *.plt) is very welcome to email me.

To answer the (very reasonable) questions

Gradual offset, and gradual return. Not lost lock I don't
think. Continuous track points so not accidentally off. On a
reasonably isolated ridge, but of course about 300m from the
east face of Crybin, which might be regarded as a very large
satellite dish ?

So perhaps it's a multi-track issue. It seemed of interest
because of the insidious way it went wrong - such an error
might cause real problems in poor visibility. Fortunately
it was clear sunny weather so I could actually see the
cliffs ahead !

Jim Hutton

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Jim Hutton said:

Has anyone got a good tracklog of the top of Fan y Big, in
the Brecon Beacons ?

I was up there today testing out my footpath map, which was
perfect until we got onto the ridge to Fan y Big, when we
appeared to stray off track.

The gps track looks fine, no missing points or oddities,
except that when overlaid on an aerial photo it isn't in
the right place ! Every other part of the tracklog is
exactly correct within a few feet, so what on earth (or
above it ?) has happened to mess things up at just this
one place ?

By an unlikely coincidence I was wondering the very same
thing on Wednesday evening while reviewing an Easter
excursion to the Beacons!

My track fits the 1:50,000 MM map fairly accurately. I don't
have the aerial photos, but Multimap do and they have a
clever overlay trick that allows you to compare with the OS
1:50,000 mapping.

There looks to be a discrepancy around the Fan Y Big summit.

tinyurl.com32fc9Open ↗

Have a look and see what you think. I can send you the track
if you still want it (mmo or plt).

--
Andrew Luyten

Reply to news0404 at my surname dot org dot uk

Andrew Luyten said:

My track fits the 1:50,000 MM map fairly accurately. I
don't have the aerial photos, but Multimap do and they
have a clever overlay trick that allows you to compare
with the OS 1:50,000 mapping.

There looks to be a discrepancy around the Fan Y Big
summit.

There certainly does. If the aerial photo is correctly
calibrated (and most of it seems to be) then the shape of
Fan y Big the map is quite wrong (and the 25k too). The
aerial photo couldn't be distorted in some way could it? It
wouldn't have been taken at an angle surely?

Paul
--
wilderness-wales.co.ukwilderness-wales.co.ukOpen ↗
wildwales.fsnet.co.ukwildwales.fsnet.co.ukOpen ↗
photosig.comuserphotosOpen ↗

Jim Hutton said:

When I overlaid this particular tracklog onto my various
maps, it all fitted perfectly except for a section along
the ridge leading to Fan y Big, and the descent.

So I am a bit concerned if I have a gps tracklog which
matches all the other info except in one (rather vital)
place. Rather shakes my faith in the little magic machine.
Hence my request for anyone who has a tracklog covering
Fan y Big.

So is the map wrong or the aerial photo, or both? The link
that Andrew gave shows Fan y Big to be a different shape
to the map.

I don't have a tracklog of that area, which indicates that I
haven't walked there for quite some time. I shall rectify
that in the near future and record my results.

Is it just the track along the top of the ridge that
concerns you? I think I'll follow the "Roman road" and take
the steep route to the top along the edge of the cliff,
then countour around Craig Cwm Oergwm and come back via
Craig y Fan Ddu.

Paul
--
wilderness-wales.co.ukwilderness-wales.co.ukOpen ↗
wildwales.fsnet.co.ukwildwales.fsnet.co.ukOpen ↗
photosig.comuserphotosOpen ↗

Jim Hutton said:

I have very bravely attached a .gif of the offending bit
which shows what happened. Apologies for a binary in a NB
group, but it's only a little one ...

You can be as brave as you like but that won't help me to
see the gif, it's been automatically filtered out.

Quoted message said:

Anyone who wants the whole track (OZI *.plt) is very
welcome to email me.

Yes, I'd like to see the whole track, and the gif, could you
email them to me?

Paul
--
wilderness-wales.co.ukwilderness-wales.co.ukOpen ↗
wildwales.fsnet.co.ukwildwales.fsnet.co.ukOpen ↗
photosig.comuserphotosOpen ↗

Paul Saunders said:

Andrew Luyten said:

My track fits the 1:50,000 MM map fairly accurately. I
don't have the aerial photos, but Multimap do and they
have a clever overlay trick that allows you to compare
with the OS 1:50,000 mapping.

There looks to be a discrepancy around the Fan Y Big
summit.

There certainly does. If the aerial photo is correctly
calibrated (and most of it seems to be) then the shape of
Fan y Big the map is quite wrong (and the 25k too). The
aerial photo couldn't be distorted in some way could it? It
wouldn't have been taken at an angle surely?

The aerial photos are intentionally distorted -
orthorectification - but this is intended to make them
better align with the corresponding cartography!

One thing I have noticed in the MM elevation data is that
there are artefacts just east of the Fan Y Big summit. They
are easily visible in either the 3D view or when printing a
shaded relief map.

I believe MM use OS elevation data rather than SRTM. If
GetMapping used data with the same artefacts during
orthorectification this may introduce errors. But whether
this would account for the observed discrepancy I
couldn't say.

Anyone with Anquet see anything amiss on the escarpment just
east of Fan Y Big?

--
Andrew Luyten

Reply to news0404 at my surname dot org dot uk

Andrew Luyten said:

One thing I have noticed in the MM elevation data is that
there are artefacts just east of the Fan Y Big summit.
They are easily visible in either the 3D view or when
printing a shaded relief map.

Quoted message said:

Anyone with Anquet see anything amiss on the escarpment
just east of Fan Y Big?

Yep, a very strange formation in the cwm. This is the only
screwed up bit of elevation data I've noticed so far.

Paul
--
wilderness-wales.co.ukwilderness-wales.co.ukOpen ↗
wildwales.fsnet.co.ukwildwales.fsnet.co.ukOpen ↗
photosig.comuserphotosOpen ↗

Andrew Luyten said:

Paul Saunders said:

Andrew Luyten said:

My track fits the 1:50,000 MM map fairly accurately. I
don't have the aerial photos, but Multimap do and they
have a clever overlay trick that allows you to compare
with the OS 1:50,000 mapping.

There looks to be a discrepancy around the Fan Y Big
summit.

There certainly does. If the aerial photo is correctly
calibrated (and most of it seems to be) then the shape of
Fan y Big the map is quite wrong (and the 25k too). The
aerial photo couldn't be distorted in some way could it?
It wouldn't have been taken at an angle surely?

The aerial photos are intentionally distorted -
orthorectification - but this is intended to make them
better align with the corresponding cartography!

Yes they involve an element of oblique view. How does it
look in www.gpsvisualizer.com/ with Landsat images which are
taken from far enough away to negate that problem?

Quoted message said:

I believe MM use OS elevation data rather than SRTM. If
GetMapping used data with the same artefacts during
orthorectification this may introduce errors. But whether
this would account for the observed discrepancy I
couldn't say.

Anyone with Anquet see anything amiss on the escarpment
just east of Fan Y Big?

Looking at Ozi-3D + SRTM the ridge follows the contours.
--
Phil Cook looking north over the park to the
"Westminster Gasworks"

Phil Cook said:

Quoted message said:

Anyone with Anquet see anything amiss on the escarpment
just east of Fan Y Big?

Looking at Ozi-3D + SRTM the ridge follows the contours.

The height data problem is not on the ridge, it's in the cwm
just north of the ridge.

Paul
--
wilderness-wales.co.ukwilderness-wales.co.ukOpen ↗
wildwales.fsnet.co.ukwildwales.fsnet.co.ukOpen ↗
photosig.comuserphotosOpen ↗

Paul Saunders said:

Phil Cook said:

Quoted message said:

Anyone with Anquet see anything amiss on the escarpment
just east of Fan Y Big?

Looking at Ozi-3D + SRTM the ridge follows the contours.

The height data problem is not on the ridge, it's in the
cwm just north of the ridge.

I was looking at the photo overlay in
tinyurl.com32fc9Open ↗ which puts the ridgelines in the
wrong place compared with the 1:50k map. The visualisation I
looked at in Ozi-3D seemed to put the ridge where the map
said they should be. Looking at it again the ridge seems to
be very slightly to the east of where the contours put it,
However the SRTM data I used is only 3 arc seconds so only
90m at best so what I see is within tollerance. The photo
overlay on Multimap is way out to the north and west around
the summit area of Fan y Big.

I just tried to look at a trace of the ridge-lines off the
OS 1:50k as an Ozi plt file in GPS Visualizer but there
seems to be a problem with the Landsat 30m pictures in that
they aren't loading as a background to the track.

I suspect that the problem Jim is seeing is caused by
distortions in the aerial photography. How does his track
plot against the OS map?
--
Phil Cook looking north over the park to the
"Westminster Gasworks"

In article <[email hidden]>, Paul Saunders
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Is it just the track along the top of the ridge that
concerns you? I think I'll follow the "Roman road" and take
the steep route to the top along the edge of the cliff,
then countour around Craig Cwm Oergwm and come back via
Craig y Fan Ddu.

A nice route Paul, but with your knee, I suggest you
continue to Bwlch-y-Ddwyallt at SO 0575 2060 then descend
following Blaen-y-Glyn. This will do away with the steep
descent pf Craig-y-Fan Ddu. You could alternatively follow
the ridge round Craig Fan Las to somewhere near SO 0500 1900
then head roughly due south to meet the road/path and return
on the path to Neuadd to the car. This should give you a
walk of roughly 8 miles.
--
Bill Grey billboy.co.ukbillboy.co.ukOpen ↗

Phil Cook said:

I was looking at the photo overlay in
tinyurl.com32fc9Open ↗ which puts the ridgelines in the
wrong place compared with the 1:50k map.

Quoted message said:

I just tried to look at a trace of the ridge-lines off the
OS 1:50k as an Ozi plt file in GPS Visualizer but there
seems to be a problem with the Landsat 30m pictures in that
they aren't loading as a background to the track.

I have just tried GPS Visualizer
gpsvisualizer.commapOpen ↗ again and the Landsat image
matches the OS map.
--
Phil Cook looking north over the park to the
"Westminster Gasworks"

Phil Cook said:

I suspect that the problem Jim is seeing is caused by
distortions in the aerial photography. How does his track
plot against the OS map?

I've put a couple of MM 3D screengrabs of my track
plotted on the
1:50K OS mapping here:

luyten.org.ukFanYBig1.jpgOpen ↗
luyten.org.ukFanYBig2.jpgOpen ↗

They show that the track closely follows the map (or is
that the other way around?). You can also see the anomaly
in the elevation data at the head of the cwm, just east of
Fan y Big.

I agree that it must be the photography that is distorted.
Hopefully a rare occurence as I was planning on buying some
to improve route planning accuracy over using the 1:50K
maps alone!

--
Andrew Luyten

Reply to news0404 at my surname dot org dot uk

Phil Cook said:

Paul Saunders said:

Phil Cook said:

> Anyone with Anquet see anything amiss on the escarpment
> just east of Fan Y Big?

Looking at Ozi-3D + SRTM the ridge follows the contours.

The height data problem is not on the ridge, it's in the
cwm just north of the ridge.

I was looking at the photo overlay in
tinyurl.com32fc9Open ↗ which puts the ridgelines in the
wrong place compared with the 1:50k map. The visualisation
I looked at in Ozi-3D seemed to put the ridge where the map
said they should be. Looking at it again the ridge seems to
be very slightly to the east of where the contours put it,
However the SRTM data I used is only 3 arc seconds so only
90m at best so what I see is within tollerance. The photo
overlay on Multimap is way out to the north and west around
the summit area of Fan y Big.

I just tried to look at a trace of the ridge-lines off the
OS 1:50k as an Ozi plt file in GPS Visualizer but there
seems to be a problem with the Landsat 30m pictures in that
they aren't loading as a background to the track.

I suspect that the problem Jim is seeing is caused by
distortions in the aerial photography. How does his track
plot against the OS map?

It plots perfectly. I think your answer is correct, but it
now poses the worrying question, WHY ?

I will send you my track and .gifs of both the OS and photo
overlay as promised.

I've just had a look at the Multimap URL mentioned above.
The nifty floating map overlay is exactly the same as my
1:25k OS, and shows clearly that in the Fan y Big summit
area the photo is way out - my track exactly follows the
map version. So how did the photo get distorted in such a
subtle way ??

Jim hutton