Hazards of night cycling

[Greens]

At the risk of sounding obsessed with safety, I will describe an incident
this evening while riding downhill on a road I've only been on once before.
Please note; I'd rather this didn't turn into a discussion about me or my
obsessions, rather I'd prefer it if other night riders shared their tales of
near disaster and disaster not averted. This would be in the interest of
educating the night riding public in avoiding problems.

It was dark, clear night and I was using my Cateye EL 300 headlight with new
batteries. I was going downhill on the shoulder of a well maintened road.
Cars were few. All of a sudden I noticed something just ahead. It looked
like white rocks. I thought about ten rocks, each a half inch to an inch in
diameter. It was too late to do anything else. I ran right into them and to
my surprise I found my front wheel on my mountain bike sliding sideways
about six inches. Just as I was about to go down, I cleared the rocks. A
little shaken, I made note of a house with lights on either side of the
garage door lit so that I might drive back and look the thing over in better
light. The rider passing before me hadn't noticed anything. I noticed a
colorful barrel marking some recent work in the middle of the shoulder not
too much further along. There I swerved around the barrel into the traffic
lanes rather than hit the barrel.

I drove back and found the garage and it's lights. Drove along slowly and
found.... a graveled entrance to... who knows and who cares? The gravel
covered the whole shoulder for about the width of a driveway.

How is it that I didn't spot this sooner? Why didn't the previous rider have
trouble with this? My guess is a car had been coming and I kept my head down
to avoid being blinded. This cuts down my visibility to about 25 feet. Going
downhill at maybe 18 or 20mph that doesn't leave a lot of time to do evasive
manuvers, but also if the oncoming car was timed just right, he might have
gone by just before I got to the gravel when I was adjusting to my low light
LED.

Conclusion: I'm going to blame my crappy headlight. It's only good for roads
on which there are no cars and no gravel patches or surprises like pot holes
and large dead animals. Shoulders have a lot of **** on them. Much easier to
see in the day. I may have to get a much brighter light or face the effects
of crash at 20 mph which can break bones or get your run over.

The industry, if it had any scruples, shouldn't even sell a weak light. It
gives false confidence. It has surprising weaknesses that can lead to
disaster.

Have you had a near disaster while riding at night? Post your experience and
conclusion.

 

[Crescentius Vespasianus]

Buy the equipment you need for safe
night bike riding. The one time I had
to do some hospital time from a day time
bike crash cost me $1000, and the
insurance company $5000 more. So that's
the benchmark I use. So if you compare
it to that, batteries and lights and
some reflector gear is really quite
cheap. Buy a good handlebar light, a
helmet mounted light and you are
business. The el-300 doesn't cut it,
the el-500 is the best of the cheap
cateye lights. The helmet mounted
princeton tec EOS is pretty good for
road, and you point the beam right in
front, when blinded by car high beams.
Put a couple good rear lights on the
back, and put some ankle reflectors on,
and you'll be seen by cars. Most rear
lights, I've seen do a pretty good job,
even the cheap ones. But I use
rechargeable batteries in them, to make
them as bright as possible. The best
rear light you can buy is naturally
useless, with dead or dying batteries.
I prefer night riding to day riding, but
you have to have the right stuff.

 

[[email protected]]

On Sep 25, 8:05 am, "Greens" <[email protected]> wrote:
> At the risk of sounding obsessed with safety, I will describe an incident
> this evening while riding downhill on a road I've only been on once before.
> Please note; I'd rather this didn't turn into a discussion about me or my
> obsessions, rather I'd prefer it if other night riders shared their tales of
> near disaster and disaster not averted. This would be in the interest of
> educating the night riding public in avoiding problems.
>
> It was dark, clear night and I was using my Cateye EL 300 headlight with new
> batteries. I was going downhill on the shoulder of a well maintened road.
> Cars were few. All of a sudden I noticed something just ahead. It looked
> like white rocks. I thought about ten rocks, each a half inch to an inch in
> diameter. It was too late to do anything else. I ran right into them and to
> my surprise I found my front wheel on my mountain bike sliding sideways
> about six inches. Just as I was about to go down, I cleared the rocks. A
> little shaken, I made note of a house with lights on either side of the
> garage door lit so that I might drive back and look the thing over in better
> light. The rider passing before me hadn't noticed anything. I noticed a
> colorful barrel marking some recent work in the middle of the shoulder not
> too much further along. There I swerved around the barrel into the traffic
> lanes rather than hit the barrel.
>
> I drove back and found the garage and it's lights. Drove along slowly and
> found.... a graveled entrance to... who knows and who cares? The gravel
> covered the whole shoulder for about the width of a driveway.
>
> How is it that I didn't spot this sooner? Why didn't the previous rider have
> trouble with this? My guess is a car had been coming and I kept my head down
> to avoid being blinded. This cuts down my visibility to about 25 feet. Going
> downhill at maybe 18 or 20mph that doesn't leave a lot of time to do evasive
> manuvers, but also if the oncoming car was timed just right, he might have
> gone by just before I got to the gravel when I was adjusting to my low light
> LED.
>
> Conclusion: I'm going to blame my crappy headlight. It's only good for roads
> on which there are no cars and no gravel patches or surprises like pot holes
> and large dead animals. Shoulders have a lot of **** on them. Much easier to
> see in the day. I may have to get a much brighter light or face the effects
> of crash at 20 mph which can break bones or get your run over.
>
> The industry, if it had any scruples, shouldn't even sell a weak light. It
> gives false confidence. It has surprising weaknesses that can lead to
> disaster.
>
> Have you had a near disaster while riding at night? Post your experience and
> conclusion.

When I ride at night it is usually on my MTB with a helmet mounted
Silva halogen made for skiing. I like helmet mounted because I can see
what I'm looking at. I can also use it to blind oncoming cars should I
be on a stretch of road so I KNOW they saw me. But it does give some
tunnel vision, and I nearly punctured my varicose veins in my calf on
a sharp branch I didn't see as it fell outside the tunnel. That would
have been bad. Moral of the story: take it easy when you can't see!

Joseph

 

[tiborg]

On Sep 25, 3:05 pm, "Greens" <[email protected]> wrote:
> At the risk of sounding obsessed with safety, I will describe an incident
> this evening while riding downhill on a road I've only been on once before.
> Please note; I'd rather this didn't turn into a discussion about me or my
> obsessions, rather I'd prefer it if other night riders shared their tales of
> near disaster and disaster not averted. This would be in the interest of
> educating the night riding public in avoiding problems.
>
> It was dark, clear night and I was using my Cateye EL 300 headlight with new
> batteries. I was going downhill on the shoulder of a well maintened road.
> Cars were few. All of a sudden I noticed something just ahead. It looked
> like white rocks. I thought about ten rocks, each a half inch to an inch in
> diameter. It was too late to do anything else. I ran right into them and to
> my surprise I found my front wheel on my mountain bike sliding sideways
> about six inches. Just as I was about to go down, I cleared the rocks. A
> little shaken, I made note of a house with lights on either side of the
> garage door lit so that I might drive back and look the thing over in better
> light. The rider passing before me hadn't noticed anything. I noticed a
> colorful barrel marking some recent work in the middle of the shoulder not
> too much further along. There I swerved around the barrel into the traffic
> lanes rather than hit the barrel.
>
> I drove back and found the garage and it's lights. Drove along slowly and
> found.... a graveled entrance to... who knows and who cares? The gravel
> covered the whole shoulder for about the width of a driveway.
>
> How is it that I didn't spot this sooner? Why didn't the previous rider have
> trouble with this? My guess is a car had been coming and I kept my head down
> to avoid being blinded. This cuts down my visibility to about 25 feet. Going
> downhill at maybe 18 or 20mph that doesn't leave a lot of time to do evasive
> manuvers, but also if the oncoming car was timed just right, he might have
> gone by just before I got to the gravel when I was adjusting to my low light
> LED.
>
> Conclusion: I'm going to blame my crappy headlight. It's only good for roads
> on which there are no cars and no gravel patches or surprises like pot holes
> and large dead animals. Shoulders have a lot of **** on them. Much easier to
> see in the day. I may have to get a much brighter light or face the effects
> of crash at 20 mph which can break bones or get your run over.
>
> The industry, if it had any scruples, shouldn't even sell a weak light. It
> gives false confidence. It has surprising weaknesses that can lead to
> disaster.
>
> Have you had a near disaster while riding at night? Post your experience and
> conclusion.

After buying an EL300, I bought another one the next day. Two mounted
on the bar let you focus one close and another just beyond, which
helps considerably. I've seen a dynamo powered version of the EL300
which might be better since it's mounted close to the ground. That
would reduce the distance the light needs to travel to illuminate road
debris.

Cateye's 1W LEDs are about as bright as 2 EL300s, so a couple 1Ws make
a good upgrade if you don't want to spend much money. Other people
have mentioned on this group non-cycling alternatives that are much
brighter than what Cateye makes (whatever happened to the Stadium3
HID?).

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com]

Greens wrote:
> At the risk of sounding obsessed with safety, I will describe an incident
> this evening while riding downhill on a road I've only been on once before.
> Please note; I'd rather this didn't turn into a discussion about me or my
> obsessions, rather I'd prefer it if other night riders shared their tales of
> near disaster and disaster not averted. This would be in the interest of
> educating the night riding public in avoiding problems.
>
> It was dark, clear night and I was using my Cateye EL 300 headlight with new
> batteries. I was going downhill on the shoulder of a well maintened road.
> Cars were few. All of a sudden I noticed something just ahead. It looked
> like white rocks. I thought about ten rocks, each a half inch to an inch in
> diameter. It was too late to do anything else. I ran right into them and to
> my surprise I found my front wheel on my mountain bike sliding sideways
> about six inches. Just as I was about to go down, I cleared the rocks. A
> little shaken, I made note of a house with lights on either side of the
> garage door lit so that I might drive back and look the thing over in better
> light. The rider passing before me hadn't noticed anything. I noticed a
> colorful barrel marking some recent work in the middle of the shoulder not
> too much further along. There I swerved around the barrel into the traffic
> lanes rather than hit the barrel.
>
> I drove back and found the garage and it's lights. Drove along slowly and
> found.... a graveled entrance to... who knows and who cares? The gravel
> covered the whole shoulder for about the width of a driveway.
>
> How is it that I didn't spot this sooner? Why didn't the previous rider have
> trouble with this? My guess is a car had been coming and I kept my head down
> to avoid being blinded. This cuts down my visibility to about 25 feet. Going
> downhill at maybe 18 or 20mph that doesn't leave a lot of time to do evasive
> manuvers, but also if the oncoming car was timed just right, he might have
> gone by just before I got to the gravel when I was adjusting to my low light
> LED.
>
> Conclusion: I'm going to blame my crappy headlight. It's only good for roads
> on which there are no cars and no gravel patches or surprises like pot holes
> and large dead animals. Shoulders have a lot of **** on them. Much easier to
> see in the day. I may have to get a much brighter light or face the effects
> of crash at 20 mph which can break bones or get your run over.
>
> The industry, if it had any scruples, shouldn't even sell a weak light. It
> gives false confidence. It has surprising weaknesses that can lead to
> disaster.

Absolutely..take NO responsibility for yourself, blame Cateye-Huh???

Look at how bright the light is and ride accordingly...If you take a
road bike with 20mm tires onto a MTB trail and then crash, are ya
gonna blame the tire maker?

If you want a brighter light, buy a brighter light and be prepared to
pay more for it. No such thing as a free lunch.


>
> Have you had a near disaster while riding at night? Post your experience and
> conclusion.

 

[Peter Cole]

Greens wrote:

> Conclusion: I'm going to blame my crappy headlight. It's only good for roads
> on which there are no cars and no gravel patches or surprises like pot holes
> and large dead animals. Shoulders have a lot of **** on them. Much easier to
> see in the day. I may have to get a much brighter light or face the effects
> of crash at 20 mph which can break bones or get your run over.
>
> The industry, if it had any scruples, shouldn't even sell a weak light. It
> gives false confidence. It has surprising weaknesses that can lead to
> disaster.
>

There are "seeing" lights and "be seen" lights. The best rule of thumb
is "never outride your lights". Sounds like you either had a "be seen"
light where you needed a "seeing" light, or you were riding 20mph with a
10mph light.

 

[Greens]

"Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com" <[email protected]> wrote in
message news:[email protected]...
>
> Greens wrote:
>> At the risk of sounding obsessed with safety, I will describe an incident
>> this evening while riding downhill on a road I've only been on once
>> before.
>> Please note; I'd rather this didn't turn into a discussion about me or
>> my
>> obsessions, rather I'd prefer it if other night riders shared their tales
>> of
>> near disaster and disaster not averted. This would be in the interest of
>> educating the night riding public in avoiding problems.
>>
>> It was dark, clear night and I was using my Cateye EL 300 headlight with
>> new
>> batteries. I was going downhill on the shoulder of a well maintened road.
>> Cars were few. All of a sudden I noticed something just ahead. It looked
>> like white rocks. I thought about ten rocks, each a half inch to an inch
>> in
>> diameter. It was too late to do anything else. I ran right into them and
>> to
>> my surprise I found my front wheel on my mountain bike sliding sideways
>> about six inches. Just as I was about to go down, I cleared the rocks. A
>> little shaken, I made note of a house with lights on either side of the
>> garage door lit so that I might drive back and look the thing over in
>> better
>> light. The rider passing before me hadn't noticed anything. I noticed a
>> colorful barrel marking some recent work in the middle of the shoulder
>> not
>> too much further along. There I swerved around the barrel into the
>> traffic
>> lanes rather than hit the barrel.
>>
>> I drove back and found the garage and it's lights. Drove along slowly and
>> found.... a graveled entrance to... who knows and who cares? The gravel
>> covered the whole shoulder for about the width of a driveway.
>>
>> How is it that I didn't spot this sooner? Why didn't the previous rider
>> have
>> trouble with this? My guess is a car had been coming and I kept my head
>> down
>> to avoid being blinded. This cuts down my visibility to about 25 feet.
>> Going
>> downhill at maybe 18 or 20mph that doesn't leave a lot of time to do
>> evasive
>> manuvers, but also if the oncoming car was timed just right, he might
>> have
>> gone by just before I got to the gravel when I was adjusting to my low
>> light
>> LED.
>>
>> Conclusion: I'm going to blame my crappy headlight. It's only good for
>> roads
>> on which there are no cars and no gravel patches or surprises like pot
>> holes
>> and large dead animals. Shoulders have a lot of **** on them. Much easier
>> to
>> see in the day. I may have to get a much brighter light or face the
>> effects
>> of crash at 20 mph which can break bones or get your run over.
>>
>> The industry, if it had any scruples, shouldn't even sell a weak light.
>> It
>> gives false confidence. It has surprising weaknesses that can lead to
>> disaster.
>
> Absolutely..take NO responsibility for yourself, blame Cateye-Huh???
>
> Look at how bright the light is and ride accordingly...If you take a
> road bike with 20mm tires onto a MTB trail and then crash, are ya
> gonna blame the tire maker?
>
> If you want a brighter light, buy a brighter light and be prepared to
> pay more for it. No such thing as a free lunch.
>
>
>>
>> Have you had a near disaster while riding at night? Post your experience
>> and
>> conclusion.
>

Riding downhill at the speed I was going was a reasonable speed. The cars
were few and 99.999% of the road was smooth. Am I supposed to ride at 10mph
the whole 7 miles just in case there is a patch of gravel? Seems unlikely
anyone would be that cautious. That's why I blame the light and Cateye for
not testing the light extensively in actual use. A little night use of the
light by responsible evaluators would quickly turn up it's weaknesses and
dangers but cateye and the people selling them are only interested in
capturing the cheapskate market who wants to ride at night. They know that
most people won't buy a $400 light for a few nights of riding and they know
that those same people will spend $40 towards the same purpose if they're
adequately assured (bullshitted) that it is safe so they put the light on
the market even though they know the light is an inadequate piece of ****.
If someone gets hurt and actually has the ballls to go to court, they know
that cyclists have a reputation for being odd and that bicycles aren't seen
as legitimate road vehicles in court. The light won't be held to the same
standards of safety that a light on a licensed motor vehicle.

 

[Greens]

"Peter Cole" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Greens wrote:
>
>> Conclusion: I'm going to blame my crappy headlight. It's only good for
>> roads on which there are no cars and no gravel patches or surprises like
>> pot holes and large dead animals. Shoulders have a lot of **** on them.
>> Much easier to see in the day. I may have to get a much brighter light or
>> face the effects of crash at 20 mph which can break bones or get your run
>> over.
>>
>> The industry, if it had any scruples, shouldn't even sell a weak light.
>> It gives false confidence. It has surprising weaknesses that can lead to
>> disaster.
>>
>
> There are "seeing" lights and "be seen" lights. The best rule of thumb is
> "never outride your lights". Sounds like you either had a "be seen" light
> where you needed a "seeing" light, or you were riding 20mph with a 10mph
> light.

Again, should it be left up to the individual cyclist to think of when a "be
seen" light or "seeing" light is necessary? Individuals don't have time to
test things extensively. They have to trust merchants and manufacturers.
Those parties are only interested in making profits. The solution is
regulation. Whether you ride or not, you're using a public road. Certain
safety requirements need to be met because everyone faces the same oncoming
vehicles and road hazards. It doesn't matter how cheap their vehicle is. Do
you think that pedestrians and cyclists should be exempt from safety
requirements? That's how it is now. You can walk, children can walk on the
side of high speed traffic without any lights or reflectors. Is that how you
want things to be?

 

[[email protected]]

On Sep 25, 6:11 pm, "Greens" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Riding downhill at the speed I was going was a reasonable speed. The cars
> were few and 99.999% of the road was smooth. Am I supposed to ride at 10mph
> the whole 7 miles just in case there is a patch of gravel?

Yes. If the light only lights up far enough to see stuff in time to
react at 10mph, that what you have to do.


Seems unlikely
> anyone would be that cautious. That's why I blame the light and Cateye for
> not testing the light extensively in actual use. A little night use of the
> light by responsible evaluators would quickly turn up it's weaknesses and
> dangers but cateye and the people selling them are only interested in
> capturing the cheapskate market who wants to ride at night. They know that
> most people won't buy a $400 light for a few nights of riding and they know
> that those same people will spend $40 towards the same purpose if they're
> adequately assured (bullshitted) that it is safe so they put the light on
> the market even though they know the light is an inadequate piece of ****.
> If someone gets hurt and actually has the ballls to go to court, they know
> that cyclists have a reputation for being odd and that bicycles aren't seen
> as legitimate road vehicles in court. The light won't be held to the same
> standards of safety that a light on a licensed motor vehicle.

I think yuo a reading WAY more into this than there is. Products of
all sorts come in a variety of quality and utlity levels. You can buy
cheap-o screwdrivers that barely work one time, or you can get top-
notch stuff. Sometimes the cheap one is all you need, sometimes it's
not. Same with everything else.

Joseph

 

[Wayne]

On Sep 25, 11:19 am, "Greens" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Peter Cole" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>
> > Greens wrote:
>
> >> Conclusion: I'm going to blame my crappy headlight. It's only good for
> >> roads on which there are no cars and no gravel patches or surprises like
> >> pot holes and large dead animals. Shoulders have a lot of **** on them.
> >> Much easier to see in the day. I may have to get a much brighter light or
> >> face the effects of crash at 20 mph which can break bones or get your run
> >> over.
>
> >> The industry, if it had any scruples, shouldn't even sell a weak light.
> >> It gives false confidence. It has surprising weaknesses that can lead to
> >> disaster.
>
> > There are "seeing" lights and "be seen" lights. The best rule of thumb is
> > "never outride your lights". Sounds like you either had a "be seen" light
> > where you needed a "seeing" light, or you were riding 20mph with a 10mph
> > light.
>
> Again, should it be left up to the individual cyclist to think of when a "be
> seen" light or "seeing" light is necessary? Individuals don't have time to
> test things extensively. They have to trust merchants and manufacturers.
> Those parties are only interested in making profits. The solution is
> regulation. Whether you ride or not, you're using a public road. Certain
> safety requirements need to be met because everyone faces the same oncoming
> vehicles and road hazards. It doesn't matter how cheap their vehicle is. Do
> you think that pedestrians and cyclists should be exempt from safety
> requirements? That's how it is now. You can walk, children can walk on the
> side of high speed traffic without any lights or reflectors. Is that how you
> want things to be?


I pass a commuter on his bike to a fast food place each morning. He
travels slowly down a well lit road and he rides an inexpensive old
cruiser. He uses one of those cheap battery lights and it serves the
vital purpose of making him highly visible. If your proposed
regulation permitted only the sale of powerful lights that would cost
him about a weeks pay, this guy just would probably just ride without
one. Cheap lights are better than no lights.

Wayne

 

[Peter Cole]

Greens wrote:
> "Peter Cole" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Greens wrote:
>>
>>> Conclusion: I'm going to blame my crappy headlight. It's only good for
>>> roads on which there are no cars and no gravel patches or surprises like
>>> pot holes and large dead animals. Shoulders have a lot of **** on them.
>>> Much easier to see in the day. I may have to get a much brighter light or
>>> face the effects of crash at 20 mph which can break bones or get your run
>>> over.
>>>
>>> The industry, if it had any scruples, shouldn't even sell a weak light.
>>> It gives false confidence. It has surprising weaknesses that can lead to
>>> disaster.
>>>
>> There are "seeing" lights and "be seen" lights. The best rule of thumb is
>> "never outride your lights". Sounds like you either had a "be seen" light
>> where you needed a "seeing" light, or you were riding 20mph with a 10mph
>> light.
>
> Again, should it be left up to the individual cyclist to think of when a "be
> seen" light or "seeing" light is necessary? Individuals don't have time to
> test things extensively. They have to trust merchants and manufacturers.
> Those parties are only interested in making profits. The solution is
> regulation.

Perhaps. But I think what you mean is *more* regulation. Currently,
bicycle lighting seems covered on a state-by-state basis. My state (MA)
requires a headlight visible from 500', a taillight (or reflector)
visible from 600', and pedal or ankle reflectors visible from 600'
(where the 600' implies lit from normal low beams). That's it. There's
no requirement for the amount of road illumination.


> Whether you ride or not, you're using a public road. Certain
> safety requirements need to be met because everyone faces the same oncoming
> vehicles and road hazards. It doesn't matter how cheap their vehicle is. Do
> you think that pedestrians and cyclists should be exempt from safety
> requirements? That's how it is now. You can walk, children can walk on the
> side of high speed traffic without any lights or reflectors. Is that how you
> want things to be?

I'd rather not broaden the question to include walkers. It's not how I'd
send my kids out, and I'll leave it at that.

As for lights, the law seems to be aimed at protecting cyclists from
being hit by motorists, not for protecting cyclists from road hazards.
I'm no expert, but I believe some countries do have more demanding
requirements for lights. I guess that would be a good thing, or at least
to have a minimum spec for manufacturers to certify to, whether it was
required or not.

This is the sort of issue a bike shop is there to help with. Most shops
stock a variety of lights and have the expertise to help you select. If
you buy mail-order or discount house, you're on your own, which is true
for a lot of other things besides lights. Of course there are resources
like this group, there are usually several threads on lights around this
time of the year (don't forget the archives).

As I said before, the cardinal rule is: never outride your lights.
People's night vision varies, weather varies, ambient light varies, etc.
Sometimes you just don't have enough light for the conditions and you
have to adjust your speed accordingly.

I might also add that shoulders are a pretty bad place to ride,
particularly at night. I usually try to observe the "debris line", which
marks the edge of the area swept by car tires. I ride just to the left
of it (US). If there's a paved shoulder and a fog line painted to mark
the lane edge, I may use it if it's clean, but that's a tough call,
especially at night -- it's not guaranteed to be clean -- **** in the
travel lane usually gets flattened or swept aside, not true on the shoulder.

 

[[email protected]]

On Sep 25, 11:11 am, "Greens" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com" <[email protected]> wrote in
> messagenews:[email protected]...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Greens wrote:
> >> At the risk of sounding obsessed with safety, I will describe an incident
> >> this evening while riding downhill on a road I've only been on once
> >> before.
> >> Please note; I'd rather this didn't turn into a discussion about me or
> >> my
> >> obsessions, rather I'd prefer it if other night riders shared their tales
> >> of
> >> near disaster and disaster not averted. This would be in the interest of
> >> educating the night riding public in avoiding problems.
>
> >> It was dark, clear night and I was using my Cateye EL 300 headlight with
> >> new
> >> batteries. I was going downhill on the shoulder of a well maintened road.
> >> Cars were few. All of a sudden I noticed something just ahead. It looked
> >> like white rocks. I thought about ten rocks, each a half inch to an inch
> >> in
> >> diameter. It was too late to do anything else. I ran right into them and
> >> to
> >> my surprise I found my front wheel on my mountain bike sliding sideways
> >> about six inches. Just as I was about to go down, I cleared the rocks. A
> >> little shaken, I made note of a house with lights on either side of the
> >> garage door lit so that I might drive back and look the thing over in
> >> better
> >> light. The rider passing before me hadn't noticed anything. I noticed a
> >> colorful barrel marking some recent work in the middle of the shoulder
> >> not
> >> too much further along. There I swerved around the barrel into the
> >> traffic
> >> lanes rather than hit the barrel.
>
> >> I drove back and found the garage and it's lights. Drove along slowly and
> >> found.... a graveled entrance to... who knows and who cares? The gravel
> >> covered the whole shoulder for about the width of a driveway.
>
> >> How is it that I didn't spot this sooner? Why didn't the previous rider
> >> have
> >> trouble with this? My guess is a car had been coming and I kept my head
> >> down
> >> to avoid being blinded. This cuts down my visibility to about 25 feet.
> >> Going
> >> downhill at maybe 18 or 20mph that doesn't leave a lot of time to do
> >> evasive
> >> manuvers, but also if the oncoming car was timed just right, he might
> >> have
> >> gone by just before I got to the gravel when I was adjusting to my low
> >> light
> >> LED.
>
> >> Conclusion: I'm going to blame my crappy headlight. It's only good for
> >> roads
> >> on which there are no cars and no gravel patches or surprises like pot
> >> holes
> >> and large dead animals. Shoulders have a lot of **** on them. Much easier
> >> to
> >> see in the day. I may have to get a much brighter light or face the
> >> effects
> >> of crash at 20 mph which can break bones or get your run over.
>
> >> The industry, if it had any scruples, shouldn't even sell a weak light.
> >> It
> >> gives false confidence. It has surprising weaknesses that can lead to
> >> disaster.
>
> > Absolutely..take NO responsibility for yourself, blame Cateye-Huh???
>
> > Look at how bright the light is and ride accordingly...If you take a
> > road bike with 20mm tires onto a MTB trail and then crash, are ya
> > gonna blame the tire maker?
>
> > If you want a brighter light, buy a brighter light and be prepared to
> > pay more for it. No such thing as a free lunch.
>
> >> Have you had a near disaster while riding at night? Post your experience
> >> and
> >> conclusion.
>
> Riding downhill at the speed I was going was a reasonable speed. The cars
> were few and 99.999% of the road was smooth. Am I supposed to ride at 10mph
> the whole 7 miles just in case there is a patch of gravel? Seems unlikely
> anyone would be that cautious. That's why I blame the light and Cateye for
> not testing the light extensively in actual use. A little night use of the
> light by responsible evaluators would quickly turn up it's weaknesses and
> dangers but cateye and the people selling them are only interested in
> capturing the cheapskate market who wants to ride at night. They know that
> most people won't buy a $400 light for a few nights of riding and they know
> that those same people will spend $40 towards the same purpose if they're
> adequately assured (bullshitted) that it is safe so they put the light on
> the market even though they know the light is an inadequate piece of ****.
> If someone gets hurt and actually has the ballls to go to court, they know
> that cyclists have a reputation for being odd and that bicycles aren't seen
> as legitimate road vehicles in court. The light won't be held to the same
> standards of safety that a light on a licensed motor vehicle.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

"capturing the cheapskate market who wants to ride at night."

You wouldn't happen to be part of this cheapskate market, would you
Greens? At some point, the individual has to take some responsibility.
If the light is good for 10mph, that's what you ride at. In town with
well-lit streets, that light is probably fine for doing the primary
job of a light in that situation, namely making other traffic aware of
the cyclist.

Smokey

 

[Greens]

"Wayne" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sep 25, 11:19 am, "Greens" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> "Peter Cole" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>
>>
>> > Greens wrote:
>>
>> >> Conclusion: I'm going to blame my crappy headlight. It's only good for
>> >> roads on which there are no cars and no gravel patches or surprises
>> >> like
>> >> pot holes and large dead animals. Shoulders have a lot of **** on
>> >> them.
>> >> Much easier to see in the day. I may have to get a much brighter light
>> >> or
>> >> face the effects of crash at 20 mph which can break bones or get your
>> >> run
>> >> over.
>>
>> >> The industry, if it had any scruples, shouldn't even sell a weak
>> >> light.
>> >> It gives false confidence. It has surprising weaknesses that can lead
>> >> to
>> >> disaster.
>>
>> > There are "seeing" lights and "be seen" lights. The best rule of thumb
>> > is
>> > "never outride your lights". Sounds like you either had a "be seen"
>> > light
>> > where you needed a "seeing" light, or you were riding 20mph with a
>> > 10mph
>> > light.
>>
>> Again, should it be left up to the individual cyclist to think of when a
>> "be
>> seen" light or "seeing" light is necessary? Individuals don't have time
>> to
>> test things extensively. They have to trust merchants and manufacturers.
>> Those parties are only interested in making profits. The solution is
>> regulation. Whether you ride or not, you're using a public road. Certain
>> safety requirements need to be met because everyone faces the same
>> oncoming
>> vehicles and road hazards. It doesn't matter how cheap their vehicle is.
>> Do
>> you think that pedestrians and cyclists should be exempt from safety
>> requirements? That's how it is now. You can walk, children can walk on
>> the
>> side of high speed traffic without any lights or reflectors. Is that how
>> you
>> want things to be?
>
>
> I pass a commuter on his bike to a fast food place each morning. He
> travels slowly down a well lit road and he rides an inexpensive old
> cruiser. He uses one of those cheap battery lights and it serves the
> vital purpose of making him highly visible. If your proposed
> regulation permitted only the sale of powerful lights that would cost
> him about a weeks pay, this guy just would probably just ride without
> one. Cheap lights are better than no lights.
>
> Wayne
>

Not if they cops told him he couldn't ride on the road at night without a
light. In New York it's the law. I don't know if it's enforced. I saw kids
riding around at night last night with no reflectors or lights of any kind
just like kids always have. They made some sarcastic comments as we went by
too. "Nice lights". Yea? How do you like my mace, you fricken delinquents,
lol?

 

[Greens]

"Peter Cole" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Greens wrote:
>> "Peter Cole" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> Greens wrote:
>>>
>>>> Conclusion: I'm going to blame my crappy headlight. It's only good for
>>>> roads on which there are no cars and no gravel patches or surprises
>>>> like pot holes and large dead animals. Shoulders have a lot of **** on
>>>> them. Much easier to see in the day. I may have to get a much brighter
>>>> light or face the effects of crash at 20 mph which can break bones or
>>>> get your run over.
>>>>
>>>> The industry, if it had any scruples, shouldn't even sell a weak light.
>>>> It gives false confidence. It has surprising weaknesses that can lead
>>>> to disaster.
>>>>
>>> There are "seeing" lights and "be seen" lights. The best rule of thumb
>>> is "never outride your lights". Sounds like you either had a "be seen"
>>> light where you needed a "seeing" light, or you were riding 20mph with a
>>> 10mph light.
>>
>> Again, should it be left up to the individual cyclist to think of when a
>> "be seen" light or "seeing" light is necessary? Individuals don't have
>> time to test things extensively. They have to trust merchants and
>> manufacturers. Those parties are only interested in making profits. The
>> solution is regulation.
>
> Perhaps. But I think what you mean is *more* regulation. Currently,
> bicycle lighting seems covered on a state-by-state basis. My state (MA)
> requires a headlight visible from 500', a taillight (or reflector) visible
> from 600', and pedal or ankle reflectors visible from 600' (where the 600'
> implies lit from normal low beams). That's it. There's no requirement for
> the amount of road illumination.
>
>
>> Whether you ride or not, you're using a public road. Certain safety
>> requirements need to be met because everyone faces the same oncoming
>> vehicles and road hazards. It doesn't matter how cheap their vehicle is.
>> Do you think that pedestrians and cyclists should be exempt from safety
>> requirements? That's how it is now. You can walk, children can walk on
>> the side of high speed traffic without any lights or reflectors. Is that
>> how you want things to be?
>
> I'd rather not broaden the question to include walkers. It's not how I'd
> send my kids out, and I'll leave it at that.
>
> As for lights, the law seems to be aimed at protecting cyclists from being
> hit by motorists, not for protecting cyclists from road hazards. I'm no
> expert, but I believe some countries do have more demanding requirements
> for lights. I guess that would be a good thing, or at least to have a
> minimum spec for manufacturers to certify to, whether it was required or
> not.
>
> This is the sort of issue a bike shop is there to help with. Most shops
> stock a variety of lights and have the expertise to help you select. If
> you buy mail-order or discount house, you're on your own, which is true
> for a lot of other things besides lights. Of course there are resources
> like this group, there are usually several threads on lights around this
> time of the year (don't forget the archives).
>
> As I said before, the cardinal rule is: never outride your lights.
> People's night vision varies, weather varies, ambient light varies, etc.
> Sometimes you just don't have enough light for the conditions and you have
> to adjust your speed accordingly.
>
> I might also add that shoulders are a pretty bad place to ride,
> particularly at night. I usually try to observe the "debris line", which
> marks the edge of the area swept by car tires. I ride just to the left of
> it (US). If there's a paved shoulder and a fog line painted to mark the
> lane edge, I may use it if it's clean, but that's a tough call, especially
> at night -- it's not guaranteed to be clean -- **** in the travel lane
> usually gets flattened or swept aside, not true on the shoulder.

I agree with most of what you said. I don't agree that discount houses
should be allowed to sell any old junk when it comes to safety. Regulation
can see to it that they don't.

Lots of cyclists are very pro freedom and anti regulation. What could be
cooler than to be against stupid regulations? The thing is there are reasons
for rules and uniformity. You can't drive as fast as you want with a car.
You can't just duct tape flashlights on your car. Why should that sort of
thing be allowed with bicycles? You're using public roads with all kinds of
vehicles. An unconscious cyclist laying in the middle of the road because of
unseen road debris is a hazard to all the cars and bikes on the road as well
as to himself (or at least he was a hazard to himself). It's just false to
say they can't control what people put on their bicycles for lighting. What
they really mean is they're too lazy to bother with them. The attitude is
"go kill yourself if you want. We don't care. We can't be bothered to set
up standards."

 

[Greens]

"Crescentius Vespasianus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Buy the equipment you need for safe night bike riding. The one time I had
> to do some hospital time from a day time bike crash cost me $1000, and the
> insurance company $5000 more. So that's the benchmark I use. So if you
> compare it to that, batteries and lights and some reflector gear is really
> quite cheap. Buy a good handlebar light, a helmet mounted light and you
> are business. The el-300 doesn't cut it, the el-500 is the best of the
> cheap cateye lights. The helmet mounted princeton tec EOS is pretty good
> for road, and you point the beam right in front, when blinded by car high
> beams. Put a couple good rear lights on the back, and put some ankle
> reflectors on, and you'll be seen by cars. Most rear lights, I've seen do
> a pretty good job, even the cheap ones. But I use rechargeable batteries
> in them, to make them as bright as possible. The best rear light you can
> buy is naturally useless, with dead or dying batteries. I prefer night
> riding to day riding, but you have to have the right stuff.

I'm agree with you completely. I use two tail lights so they're redundant.
If one goes out, I might not know it, but at least I've got the second
light. I've rigged one tail light to the back of my helmet so that it's up
higher and can be seen further away and through higher SUV windows.

 

[vey]

[email protected] wrote:
At some point, the individual has to take some responsibility.
> If the light is good for 10mph, that's what you ride at.

You call $40 for what is essentially a flashight "cheap"?

I bought a Vista Light Road Toad/Blinky taillight combo for about $30
from an LBS. I found out is wasn't even good for 1 MPH the first night I
had it out. Optics were all screwed up. I liked the Blinky, so I kept it.

A $1 flashlight from the Dollar Store works better. I just strap it on
there somewhere and I get enough light. Works okay for about six months,
then water or shock finally gets to it.

AFAIC, a "be seen" light, unless its a blinky front light, equals a
piece of **** so bad it shouldn't be sold as a safety device.

 

[A Muzi]

Greens wrote:
>>>>> Conclusion: I'm going to blame my crappy headlight
-snip-
>>>>> The industry, if it had any scruples, shouldn't even sell a weak light
-snip-
> I don't agree that discount houses
> should be allowed to sell any old junk when it comes to safety. Regulation
> can see to it that they don't.
-snip-
> The attitude is
> "go kill yourself if you want. We don't care. We can't be bothered to set
> up standards."

Sounds good to me. Is there a problem?
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

 

[SMS]

Greens wrote:

> The industry, if it had any scruples, shouldn't even sell a weak light. It
> gives false confidence. It has surprising weaknesses that can lead to
> disaster.

The issue of crappy lights being legal lights for bicycles is indeed a
problem. It gives people a false sense of security when they mount a toy
light to their handlebars. Those lights are good for "being seen" and
being legal, but they are not for very dark areas, or riding at a
relatively quick pace.

If you want to ride 15-20 mph at night in very dark places, get some
good lights. There are a lot of new lighting products on the market and
you can get started for well under $100 with a powerful battery powered
headlight with a proper beam that illuminates not only sufficiently far
ahead, but off to the sides as well.

For around town, you can get some dynamo lights, but they aren't
powerful enough for the type of cycling where you had your little
incident, except for perhaps the new Solidlight 1203D.

Look into some of the new Cree LED flashlights as well. This is a
relatively inexpensive alternative to lights like the DiNotte (still not
as cheap as a CatEye EL300).

Simply type "Bicycle Lighting" into the Google Search box, then click
"I'm Feeling Lucky." You'll be taken to the pre-eminent web site for
bicycle lighting in the world. This site will show you how to set up
lighting that enables you to ride more safely at night.

Steve
"http://bicyclelighting.com"

 

[Clive George]

"SMS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> For around town, you can get some dynamo lights, but they aren't powerful
> enough for the type of cycling where you had your little incident, except
> for perhaps the new Solidlight 1203D.

(cough) bollocks.

But we all know that.

> Simply type "Bicycle Lighting" into the Google Search box, then click "I'm
> Feeling Lucky." You'll be taken to

SMS's website, which although it contains some useful info is severely
tainted by his refusal to admit that what others use successfully can
possibly work.

clive

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com]

On Sep 25, 9:11 am, "Greens" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com" <[email protected]> wrote in
> messagenews:[email protected]...
>
>
>
>
>
> > Greens wrote:
> >> At the risk of sounding obsessed with safety, I will describe an incident
> >> this evening while riding downhill on a road I've only been on once
> >> before.
> >> Please note; I'd rather this didn't turn into a discussion about me or
> >> my
> >> obsessions, rather I'd prefer it if other night riders shared their tales
> >> of
> >> near disaster and disaster not averted. This would be in the interest of
> >> educating the night riding public in avoiding problems.
>
> >> It was dark, clear night and I was using my Cateye EL 300 headlight with
> >> new
> >> batteries. I was going downhill on the shoulder of a well maintened road.
> >> Cars were few. All of a sudden I noticed something just ahead. It looked
> >> like white rocks. I thought about ten rocks, each a half inch to an inch
> >> in
> >> diameter. It was too late to do anything else. I ran right into them and
> >> to
> >> my surprise I found my front wheel on my mountain bike sliding sideways
> >> about six inches. Just as I was about to go down, I cleared the rocks. A
> >> little shaken, I made note of a house with lights on either side of the
> >> garage door lit so that I might drive back and look the thing over in
> >> better
> >> light. The rider passing before me hadn't noticed anything. I noticed a
> >> colorful barrel marking some recent work in the middle of the shoulder
> >> not
> >> too much further along. There I swerved around the barrel into the
> >> traffic
> >> lanes rather than hit the barrel.
>
> >> I drove back and found the garage and it's lights. Drove along slowly and
> >> found.... a graveled entrance to... who knows and who cares? The gravel
> >> covered the whole shoulder for about the width of a driveway.
>
> >> How is it that I didn't spot this sooner? Why didn't the previous rider
> >> have
> >> trouble with this? My guess is a car had been coming and I kept my head
> >> down
> >> to avoid being blinded. This cuts down my visibility to about 25 feet.
> >> Going
> >> downhill at maybe 18 or 20mph that doesn't leave a lot of time to do
> >> evasive
> >> manuvers, but also if the oncoming car was timed just right, he might
> >> have
> >> gone by just before I got to the gravel when I was adjusting to my low
> >> light
> >> LED.
>
> >> Conclusion: I'm going to blame my crappy headlight. It's only good for
> >> roads
> >> on which there are no cars and no gravel patches or surprises like pot
> >> holes
> >> and large dead animals. Shoulders have a lot of **** on them. Much easier
> >> to
> >> see in the day. I may have to get a much brighter light or face the
> >> effects
> >> of crash at 20 mph which can break bones or get your run over.
>
> >> The industry, if it had any scruples, shouldn't even sell a weak light.
> >> It
> >> gives false confidence. It has surprising weaknesses that can lead to
> >> disaster.
>
> > Absolutely..take NO responsibility for yourself, blame Cateye-Huh???
>
> > Look at how bright the light is and ride accordingly...If you take a
> > road bike with 20mm tires onto a MTB trail and then crash, are ya
> > gonna blame the tire maker?
>
> > If you want a brighter light, buy a brighter light and be prepared to
> > pay more for it. No such thing as a free lunch.
>
> >> Have you had a near disaster while riding at night? Post your experience
> >> and
> >> conclusion.
>
> Riding downhill at the speed I was going was a reasonable speed. The cars
> were few and 99.999% of the road was smooth. Am I supposed to ride at 10mph
> the whole 7 miles just in case there is a patch of gravel?

If the light doesn't allow you to see hazards at the speed you were
riding, slow down.

Seems unlikely
> anyone would be that cautious. That's why I blame the light and Cateye for
> not testing the light extensively in actual use. A little night use of the
> light by responsible evaluators would quickly turn up it's weaknesses and
> dangers but cateye and the people selling them are only interested in
> capturing the cheapskate market who wants to ride at night.

Really. We sell many and tell the people of it's limitations. It isn't
the brightest thing, but I use it and it is fine for my 2.5 mile ride
home. It is what it is, don't expect it to be as bright as something
that has 100 timnes the battery power.



They know that
> most people won't buy a $400 light for a few nights of riding and they know
> that those same people will spend $40 towards the same purpose if they're
> adequately assured (bullshitted) that it is safe so they put the light on
> the market even though they know the light is an inadequate piece of ****.
> If someone gets hurt and actually has the ballls to go to court, they know
> that cyclists have a reputation for being odd and that bicycles aren't seen
> as legitimate road vehicles in court. The light won't be held to the same
> standards of safety that a light on a licensed motor vehicle.

Like the weather, it is YOUR responsibility to ride within your own
limitations and those of your equipment. Don't blame Cateye because
you werte going to fast for conditions.