Head first over handlebars?

LSMike said:

Going head first over the handlebars of a normal bike seems all too
common, and I've done it a few times myself. I've just read of a
couple separate ones, including poor Pinky.

I think this gives recumbents a serious safety advantage, and together
with the much more powerful braking on my SWB, I feel rather safer on
my 'bent. I suspect I ride a little faster and more aggressively on
the 'bent, which works against this. Thoughts?

risk compensation in action!

pk

LSMike said:

Going head first over the handlebars of a normal bike seems all too
common, and I've done it a few times myself. I've just read of a
couple separate ones, including poor Pinky.

I think this gives recumbents a serious safety advantage, and together
with the much more powerful braking on my SWB, I feel rather safer on
my 'bent. I suspect I ride a little faster and more aggressively on
the 'bent, which works against this. Thoughts?

Depends what caused you to go over the handlebars. If it was hitting
the side of a car, then I suspect I'd prefer to go straight over the
bars and over the bonnet than ending up with my ankles somewhere in the
region of my ears. :-)

R.

p.k. said:

risk compensation in action!

pk

LOL, yup, that's what I was saying. 🙂

LSMike said:

I think this gives recumbents a serious safety advantage, and together
with the much more powerful braking on my SWB, I feel rather safer on
my 'bent. I suspect I ride a little faster and more aggressively on
the 'bent, which works against this. Thoughts?

But you *must* be in more danger, it's so low! ;-/

I don't think you'll get any useful data set to be able to compare, and
in any case accidents are so variable as to render specific instances of
better safety as rather woolly things in an overall picture.

Main point to bear in mind is that a suitable and well maintained cycle
ridden by a clueful and moderately skillful rider is not an accident
waiting to happen, however the rider sits in relation to the pedals.

I'd agree that 'bents do some things better than uprights, but having
said that the shortcomings of uprights are easy enough to deal with in
practice for the most part. And as those of us in comfy chairs know,
the same is true is of 'bents, even though those unfamiliar with them
readily jump to the conclusion that we've signed our death warrants by
venturing out on such machines.

In short, I think the differences in riding position have /far/ less
effect on safety than the rider, to the extent that they'll come down to
being lost in noise if you could gather the data. I do wish more people
would realise that before they write off recumbents as death traps for
the suicidally insane, and that their own mounts are less than optimally
safe in every possible way.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Response to LSMike:

Quoted message said:

I think this gives recumbents a serious safety advantage, and together
with the much more powerful braking on my SWB, I feel rather safer on
my 'bent. I suspect I ride a little faster and more aggressively on
the 'bent, which works against this. Thoughts?

Not much doubt about either proposition, in my mind. The third wheel
helps as well; there's certainly been the odd situation where I've had
to brake such that if I'd been on the upright, I'd probably have been
off it, IYSWIM.

--
Mark, UK
"Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps."

LSMike said:

Going head first over the handlebars of a normal bike seems all too
common, and I've done it a few times myself. I've just read of a
couple separate ones, including poor Pinky.

I think this gives recumbents a serious safety advantage, and together
with the much more powerful braking on my SWB, I feel rather safer on
my 'bent. I suspect I ride a little faster and more aggressively on
the 'bent, which works against this. Thoughts?

There is a view (Jobst or Sheldon?) that going over the handlebars is
not inevitable and results from people failing to brace themselves
sufficently against the handlebars with their arms. I've not been over
the handlebars since reading that advice although I did manage for the
first time to fold the back wheel under the Brommie on Friday with an
emergency stop.

--
Tony

"The best way I know of to win an argument is to start by being in the
right."
- Lord Hailsham

Tony Raven said:

There is a view (Jobst or Sheldon?) that going over the handlebars is
not inevitable and results from people failing to brace themselves
sufficently against the handlebars with their arms. I've not been over
the handlebars since reading that advice although I did manage for the
first time to fold the back wheel under the Brommie on Friday with an
emergency stop.

I would have thought that in a collision that would be a Bad Thing;
wouldn't it lead to broken collar bone(s)?

Tony Raven said:

There is a view (Jobst or Sheldon?) that going over the handlebars is
not inevitable and results from people failing to brace themselves
sufficently against the handlebars with their arms. I've not been over
the handlebars since reading that advice

I've only ever gone over the bars twice, and both as a result of hitting
a fixed object rather than excessive (?!) braking.

R.

Tony Raven said:

There is a view (Jobst or Sheldon?) that going over the handlebars is
not inevitable and results from people failing to brace themselves
sufficently against the handlebars with their arms. I've not been over
the handlebars since reading that advice although I did manage for the
first time to fold the back wheel under the Brommie on Friday with an
emergency stop.

The last time I went over the bars was on the Brom after a back wheel
fold, but since the basic reason was I hit a vicious speed bump by way
of not really paying attention to what I was doing (the underlying cause
of the accident, entirely my fault) the chance to brace myself against
the bars was rather lost.

The above is all very well, but unfortunately that sub-class of
accidents where you don't see it coming is rather ruled out in many
cases. And unfortunately that's a clearly finite percentage of accidents.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

LSMike came up with the following;:

Quoted message said:

Going head first over the handlebars of a normal bike seems all too
common, and I've done it a few times myself. I've just read of a
couple separate ones, including poor Pinky.

I think this gives recumbents a serious safety advantage, and together
with the much more powerful braking on my SWB, I feel rather safer on
my 'bent. I suspect I ride a little faster and more aggressively on
the 'bent, which works against this. Thoughts?

Only times I've gone over the bars has been when trying to 'endo' [1],
landed wrongly from a jump or when I've (mostly inadvertantly) hit solid
objects. In all cases the real reason for going over the bars has been down
to pilot error really ... 😉

In the case of solid objects I'd rather go over the bars than slide along a
boom with my nuts getting closer to a chainwheel ... 😉

[1] ride along with the front brake on and rear wheel rising in the air,
sort of a reverse wheelie, and can be used on very sharp corners to swing
the rear end round even quicker.

--
Paul ...
(8(|) Homer Rules ..... Doh !!!
ebay 4608494471

Tony Raven said:

There is a view (Jobst or Sheldon?)

Jobst.

Quoted message said:

that going over the handlebars is
not inevitable and results from people failing to brace themselves
sufficently against the handlebars with their arms.

It is inevitable when there is not sufficient distance to stop normally,
one's brake and hand is strong, and all alternatives are less desirable.
There's a limit to how quickly an upright bike can be decelerated before
it goes heels over head, no matter how well you brace against the bars.
Looks like Pinky's just been there and done that.

However, I did once go over the bars when, with hindsight, I think I might
have had enough distance to stop if I had braced better and been more
clever with the brake lever instead of just pulling it as hard as possible
in my panic.

Best wihes to Pinky.

~PB

LSMike said:

Going head first over the handlebars of a normal bike seems all too
common, and I've done it a few times myself. I've just read of a
couple separate ones, including poor Pinky.

A wonderful somersault in the World's Cyclo Cross yesterday, and the
rider was straight back on his bike too! Bad luck for NYs who crashed on
his side on the last lap and had to abandon...

Pete Biggs said:

Tony Raven said:

There is a view (Jobst or Sheldon?)

Jobst.

Quoted message said:

that going over the handlebars is
not inevitable and results from people failing to brace themselves
sufficently against the handlebars with their arms.

It is inevitable when there is not sufficient distance to stop normally,
one's brake and hand is strong, and all alternatives are less desirable.
There's a limit to how quickly an upright bike can be decelerated before
it goes heels over head, no matter how well you brace against the bars.
Looks like Pinky's just been there and done that.

I think Jobst's position is not that an endo is always avoidable just by
bracing better, but that a lot of endos (perhaps the vast majority?)
could have been. I think that's probably not unreasonable in a panic
braking situation especially with riders who are not very experienced.
~0.5g on your arms all of a sudden is a large force.

James
--
James Annan
see web pages for email
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/julesandjames/home/
http://julesandjames.blogspot.com/

Chris said:

I would have thought that in a collision that would be a Bad Thing;
wouldn't it lead to broken collar bone(s)?

Given that many people* truly believe that going over the handlebars is
terminal then surely a broken collar bone is better ;-)

--
Tony

* Purveyors of the "Helmet saved my life" myth

"The best way I know of to win an argument is to start by being in the
right."
- Lord Hailsham

James Annan said:

I think Jobst's position is not that an endo is always avoidable just
by bracing better, but that a lot of endos (perhaps the vast
majority?) could have been. I think that's probably not unreasonable
in a panic braking situation especially with riders who are not very
experienced. ~0.5g on your arms all of a sudden is a large force.

That's fair enough, probably right.

It's got to be worthwhile even for experienced riders to practise their
emergency-braking skills, especially after getting a new bike/brake/wheel.
What might have worked at one time won't necessarily be right with
different equipment or a different riding position, or even a different
body and brain if it's been some years since you last tried it :-)

~PB

Pete Biggs said:

That's fair enough, probably right.

It's got to be worthwhile even for experienced riders to practise their
emergency-braking skills, especially after getting a new bike/brake/wheel.
What might have worked at one time won't necessarily be right with
different equipment or a different riding position, or even a different
body and brain if it's been some years since you last tried it :-)

I agree. Too few people, including car drivers, practice those skills
with the result that they often get it wrong when an emergency does
happen.

--
Tony

"The best way I know of to win an argument is to start by being in the
right."
- Lord Hailsham

Peter Clinch said:

But you *must* be in more danger, it's so low! ;-/

Following a fall (ahem) yesterday, due to ice, I was discussing
recumbents with a club colleague and the idea that I'd have been better
off with three wheels. In the course of discussion, she came out with
the above, and you'll be pleased to know that I put her straight - even
though I am not a 'bent rider myself, I have been reading URC long
enough for some of the pro-'bent propaganda to have rubbed off on me ;-)

Quoted message said:

Main point to bear in mind is that a suitable and well maintained cycle
ridden by a clueful and moderately skillful rider is not an accident
waiting to happen, however the rider sits in relation to the pedals.

Well, my fall yesterday was the first for a /long/ time. And I would
call myself a "moderately skillful rider" so that would seem to back up
what you say, if only anecdotally. And incidents like the one Pinky was
involved in have even less to do with the type of vehicle you are riding.

Besides, my fall wasn't even slightly serious - I was approaching a
bend, saw the ice just too late and was already braking. Didn't have a
chance, though I managed to give enough warning for everyone else to
avoid it. It all happened slowly enough that I could dive on to the
verge, which I thought would be soft, but it was actually frozen - came
away with slight grazing to the face and left knee, otherwise completely
unharmed. (My woolly hat saved my life!)

Not a good day to be out on two wheels yesterday, but then I think part
of being a sensible cyclist is knowing when to leave the bike at home.
This thought crossed my mind when I looked out of the window yesterday
morning and saw the frost. It was only cabin fever that persuaded me to
leave the house...

Quoted message said:

In short, I think the differences in riding position have /far/ less
effect on safety than the rider

I think you are very probably right.

d.

Paul - censored said:

[1] ride along with the front brake on and rear wheel rising in the air,
sort of a reverse wheelie, and can be used on very sharp corners to
swing the rear end round even quicker.

It also looks really cool when executed well, or by Angelina Jolie on a
motorbike (Tombraider).

When my eldest son was learning the tricks of the trade as a trials
rider, we became on first name terms with the Triage crowd at Kings Lynn
A&E - but he can Endo pretty well now.

--
Chris

davek said:

Peter Clinch said:

But you *must* be in more danger, it's so low! ;-/

Following a fall (ahem) yesterday, due to ice, I was discussing
recumbents with a club colleague and the idea that I'd have been better
off with three wheels. In the course of discussion, she came out with
the above, and you'll be pleased to know that I put her straight - even
though I am not a 'bent rider myself, I have been reading URC long
enough for some of the pro-'bent propaganda to have rubbed off on me ;-)

But would you ride a Trice S round Aldwych at night?

Quoted message said:

Not a good day to be out on two wheels yesterday, but then I think part
of being a sensible cyclist is knowing when to leave the bike at home.
This thought crossed my mind when I looked out of the window yesterday
morning and saw the frost. It was only cabin fever that persuaded me to
leave the house...

I left it till the sun had got up a bit higher but there was still some
frost on the road. Nothing slippery but a glorious bright cold sunny ride

--
Tony

"The best way I know of to win an argument is to start by being in the
right."
- Lord Hailsham