headset

David Griffith said:

1. Could hanging the bike cause the 'groove'?

I doubt it.

Quoted message said:

2. How might this condition be remedied?

New headset.

Quoted message said:

3. Will my LBS take the entire headset off the frame to make a repair?
If so, I'd like to paint the frame.

Yes.

Quoted message said:

4. I notice a difficulty riding the bike without my hands on the bars.
The bike didn't seem to want to go straight, but would veer to the left
or right. Could that be caused by the 'groove'?

Indexed headsets are impossible to properly adjust, and make hands free
riding challenging or impossible.

David Griffith said:

I hung my 80's Guerciotti road bike from the ceiling of my garage. The
front wheel hung on a hook. My Pinarello took its place as the daily ride.

I took the Guerciotti down after hanging for about a year, pumped up the
tires, put on new stem & moustache handlebars, adjusted brakes and went
for a ride.

I noticed right away a problem apparently with the headset (Campagnolo
Record): there is a 'groove' in the straight-ahead position. The
headset seems to favor this groove quite a bit. The bars 'lock'
straight ahead and it takes a bit of an effort to move them from this
position.

Some questions:

1. Could hanging the bike cause the 'groove'?

2. How might this condition be remedied?

3. Will my LBS take the entire headset off the frame to make a repair?
If so, I'd like to paint the frame.

4. I notice a difficulty riding the bike without my hands on the bars.
The bike didn't seem to want to go straight, but would veer to the left
or right. Could that be caused by the 'groove'?

Thanks in advance for any help this group might offer.

Quoted message said:

David Griffith

Dear David,

It sounds as if your old bike had developed what's called an indexed
headset that you didn't notice.

When you tried it after getting used to a bike whose headset wasn't
damaged, you noticed it right away.

What happens is that the bearing races develop faint dimples that trap
the balls.

The dimples almost always develop in the straight-ahead position. The
problem is called indexing because the handlebars resist turning in
either direction until you force them over one dimple--and then they
sit trapped at that slight angle and stubbornly resist any change. The
result is a notchy, clicky, indexed feeling instead of a smoothly
turning front end.

Tempests in teacups rage occasionally here about all the possible
causes, but none of the combatants has ever been willing to blame
hanging the bike from the ceiling by the front wheel.

(Think about which way the force is applied to the headset when the
bike hangs from the ceiling by its front wheel--that won't cause
dimples in the bottom or top of the races.)

One school believes that the sole cause is riding along straight for
long distances. The vibration and pressure squish the grease out from
between the balls and the race, metal touches metal under considerable
pressure, and the ball and race repeatedly micro-weld together and
tear apart, eroding the race and forming the dimple.

Another school believes that this isn't helped by impacts, such as
crashes or buzzing over rumble strips.

There are claims that just vibrating while clamped to car carriers for
long periods can cause the problem.

But it doesn't really matter, since there's no practical cure for
ordinary ball-bearing headsets. When the indexing bothers you, replace
the headset.

It's worth mentioning that indexing won't suddenly make turning
impossible. The bearings are wearing and getting looser, not tighter.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Pretty good reasoning here, IMHO, but could the long term idleness of
the bike have allowed the old grease to congeal and harden, and now
the index dimple might be balls rolling over dried grease? Especially
if the garage has gone through a wide range of temperatures?

If this is the answer, a good headset cleaning with new balls just for
good measure might set things right. If this was my bike, I'd do a
rebuild and see if I could properly adjust the cleaned bearing set.
If so, it's ready to ride. If not, get a new headset. Either way,
you're tearing down the front end, and it might just be frame painting
time!

Ken Freeman

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

David Griffith said:

I hung my 80's Guerciotti road bike from the ceiling of my garage.
The
front wheel hung on a hook. My Pinarello took its place as the
daily ride.

I took the Guerciotti down after hanging for about a year, pumped up
the
tires, put on new stem & moustache handlebars, adjusted brakes and
went
for a ride.

I noticed right away a problem apparently with the headset
(Campagnolo
Record): there is a 'groove' in the straight-ahead position. The
headset seems to favor this groove quite a bit. The bars 'lock'
straight ahead and it takes a bit of an effort to move them from
this
position.

Some questions:

1. Could hanging the bike cause the 'groove'?

2. How might this condition be remedied?

3. Will my LBS take the entire headset off the frame to make a
repair?
If so, I'd like to paint the frame.

4. I notice a difficulty riding the bike without my hands on the
bars.
The bike didn't seem to want to go straight, but would veer to the
left
or right. Could that be caused by the 'groove'?

Thanks in advance for any help this group might offer.

Quoted message said:

David Griffith

Dear David,

It sounds as if your old bike had developed what's called an indexed
headset that you didn't notice.

When you tried it after getting used to a bike whose headset wasn't
damaged, you noticed it right away.

What happens is that the bearing races develop faint dimples that
trap
the balls.

The dimples almost always develop in the straight-ahead position.
The
problem is called indexing because the handlebars resist turning in
either direction until you force them over one dimple--and then they
sit trapped at that slight angle and stubbornly resist any change.
The
result is a notchy, clicky, indexed feeling instead of a smoothly
turning front end.

Tempests in teacups rage occasionally here about all the possible
causes, but none of the combatants has ever been willing to blame
hanging the bike from the ceiling by the front wheel.

(Think about which way the force is applied to the headset when the
bike hangs from the ceiling by its front wheel--that won't cause
dimples in the bottom or top of the races.)

One school believes that the sole cause is riding along straight for
long distances. The vibration and pressure squish the grease out
from
between the balls and the race, metal touches metal under
considerable
pressure, and the ball and race repeatedly micro-weld together and
tear apart, eroding the race and forming the dimple.

Another school believes that this isn't helped by impacts, such as
crashes or buzzing over rumble strips.

There are claims that just vibrating while clamped to car carriers
for
long periods can cause the problem.

But it doesn't really matter, since there's no practical cure for
ordinary ball-bearing headsets. When the indexing bothers you,
replace
the headset.

It's worth mentioning that indexing won't suddenly make turning
impossible. The bearings are wearing and getting looser, not
tighter.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

David Griffith said:

I hung my 80's Guerciotti road bike from the ceiling of my garage. The
front wheel hung on a hook. My Pinarello took its place as the daily ride.

I took the Guerciotti down after hanging for about a year, pumped up the
tires, put on new stem & moustache handlebars, adjusted brakes and went
for a ride.

I noticed right away a problem apparently with the headset (Campagnolo
Record): there is a 'groove' in the straight-ahead position. The
headset seems to favor this groove quite a bit. The bars 'lock'
straight ahead and it takes a bit of an effort to move them from this
position.

Some questions:

1. Could hanging the bike cause the 'groove'?

2. How might this condition be remedied?

3. Will my LBS take the entire headset off the frame to make a repair?
If so, I'd like to paint the frame.

4. I notice a difficulty riding the bike without my hands on the bars.
The bike didn't seem to want to go straight, but would veer to the left
or right. Could that be caused by the 'groove'?

Thanks in advance for any help this group might offer.

David Griffith

I'd clean and repack the headset with new grease. You might also try
replacing the bearings in their cages with loose bearings. This should
get rid of the 'indexing' feeling.

Peter

Road Man said:

Pretty good reasoning here, IMHO, but could the long term idleness of
the bike have allowed the old grease to congeal and harden, and now
the index dimple might be balls rolling over dried grease? Especially
if the garage has gone through a wide range of temperatures?

If this is the answer, a good headset cleaning with new balls just for
good measure might set things right. If this was my bike, I'd do a
rebuild and see if I could properly adjust the cleaned bearing set.
If so, it's ready to ride. If not, get a new headset. Either way,
you're tearing down the front end, and it might just be frame painting
time!

Ken Freeman

Dear Ken,

Thanks, but reasoning isn't mine--it's just what numerous posts have
pointed out and argued over for years.

Dimpled headsets that cause indexing are a well-known phenomenon. (I
have a nice example of a badly indexed headset functioning as a heavy
wheel vise on my workbench right now for spoke testing.)

I'm too cautious to say that the dried grease theory is absolutely
impossible (others will probably take care of that for me), but it
strikes me as extremely improbable.

I think that I'm supposed to snarl at you for--well, for something,
but I'm not sure what. Besides, this savage picture indicates my
reaction better:

http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/wsb/media/286143/graphic_pub.jpg

Grease is an oil-saturated soap, and the faint resistance of dried
soap against small bearings isn't likely to be noticeable after you
twist the handlebars back and forth a single time. I expect that the
foot-long-leverage of each handlebar would immediately scour the balls
right through anything less than dried epoxy. (Think of the kind of
pressure on the balls with the rider sitting on the bike.)

As for the rebuild, it's unlikely that there's any need for adjustment
and testing. The dimples in the metal are obvious as soon as you wipe
the grease out of the races. (After all, you can easily feel the metal
parts that are supposed to move smoothly jerking from one preferred
position to the next!)

You can reassemble things to try to mismatch the dimplings in the
races, but it's not worth the trouble and isn't the same thing as
adjusting a normal, undamaged headset.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

David Griffith said:

I noticed right away a problem apparently with the headset (Campagnolo
Record): there is a 'groove' in the straight-ahead position. The
headset seems to favor this groove quite a bit. The bars 'lock'
straight ahead and it takes a bit of an effort to move them from this
position.

Some questions:

1. Could hanging the bike cause the 'groove'?

No.

Quoted message said:

2. How might this condition be remedied?

Re-pack the headset, and see if you can add one more bearing (remove the
standard bearing retainer). There are actually little pits in the race
at each bearing position, adding another bearing means they can't line up
in the same positions.

Quoted message said:

3. Will my LBS take the entire headset off the frame to make a repair?
If so, I'd like to paint the frame.

Well, a new headset will fix this as well, of course.

Quoted message said:

4. I notice a difficulty riding the bike without my hands on the bars.
The bike didn't seem to want to go straight, but would veer to the left
or right. Could that be caused by the 'groove'?

Yes, in that it makes it harder to correct the direction of the bike with
the usual small movements of your body.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | "It doesn't get any easier, you just go faster." --Greg LeMond
_`\(,_ |
(_)/ (_) |

The "indexing" of you headset was not caused by hanging it (here we go
again, folks! lol). It's caused by the bearings in (usually) the bottom
cup being repeatedly pounded while riding until small dents form on the
race surface.

If you have traditional cup and cone bearings, replace the caged balls
in (at least) the bottom bearing with loose ones (get 1 or two more than
were in the cage to make up for the spaces that are no longer there).
This usually solves the problem

- -
Comments and opinions compliments of,
"Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman"

My web Site:
http://geocities.com/czcorner

To E-mail me:
ChrisZCorner "at" webtv "dot" net

Quoted message said:

Dimpled headsets that cause indexing are a well-known phenomenon. (I
have a nice example of a badly indexed headset functioning as a heavy
wheel vise on my workbench right now for spoke testing.)

I'm too cautious to say that the dried grease theory is absolutely
impossible (others will probably take care of that for me), but it
strikes me as extremely improbable.

I think that I'm supposed to snarl at you for--well, for something,
but I'm not sure what. Besides, this savage picture indicates my
reaction better:

http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/wsb/media/286143/graphic_pub.jpg

You MONSTER!

:-P

It ain't the grease, that's for sure. I've tried the ole' "turn the
cups a bit" routine on an appallingly indexed Levin headset before, and
it was still sloppy feeling as I couldn't get it dialed in right. I
installed a cheapo Shimano RSX headset (all I could source on a Sunday)
and that particular bike's feel went from "OMG, the frame must be
misaligned!" in the cornering department to a simple "ahhhh". Speaking
of which, a good ole Tange Levin is a great (and dirt cheap) and
authentic looking headset for any old threaded getup.

On 13 Jul 2006 21:44:47 -0700, "landotter" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Dimpled headsets that cause indexing are a well-known phenomenon. (I
have a nice example of a badly indexed headset functioning as a heavy
wheel vise on my workbench right now for spoke testing.)

I'm too cautious to say that the dried grease theory is absolutely
impossible (others will probably take care of that for me), but it
strikes me as extremely improbable.

I think that I'm supposed to snarl at you for--well, for something,
but I'm not sure what. Besides, this savage picture indicates my
reaction better:

http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/wsb/media/286143/graphic_pub.jpg

You MONSTER!

:-P

It ain't the grease, that's for sure. I've tried the ole' "turn the
cups a bit" routine on an appallingly indexed Levin headset before, and
it was still sloppy feeling as I couldn't get it dialed in right. I
installed a cheapo Shimano RSX headset (all I could source on a Sunday)
and that particular bike's feel went from "OMG, the frame must be
misaligned!" in the cornering department to a simple "ahhhh". Speaking
of which, a good ole Tange Levin is a great (and dirt cheap) and
authentic looking headset for any old threaded getup.

Dear Landotter,

I prefer to think of it as a picture of polite surprise, not a
monster. The dignity of the creature seems well-suited to the gravity
of the topics discussed on the newsgroup.

As for dried-up grease causing indexing, I expect that the theory is
not going to fly, but that's what they said to Wilbur and Orville.

Somewhere, some outraged poster may even now be photographing an
ancient headset so worn and rattly and filled with nameless corroded
glop, baked to a cement-like consistency by the desert sun, that its
action imitates the familiar dimples seen in headset races.

But I doubt it. When metal meets grease, the grease usually moves.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Road Man said:

Pretty good reasoning here, IMHO, but could the long term idleness
of
the bike have allowed the old grease to congeal and harden, and now
the index dimple might be balls rolling over dried grease?
Especially
if the garage has gone through a wide range of temperatures?

If this is the answer, a good headset cleaning with new balls just
for
good measure might set things right. If this was my bike, I'd do a
rebuild and see if I could properly adjust the cleaned bearing set.
If so, it's ready to ride. If not, get a new headset. Either way,
you're tearing down the front end, and it might just be frame
painting
time!

Ken Freeman

Dear Ken,

Thanks, but reasoning isn't mine--it's just what numerous posts have
pointed out and argued over for years.

Dimpled headsets that cause indexing are a well-known phenomenon. (I
have a nice example of a badly indexed headset functioning as a
heavy
wheel vise on my workbench right now for spoke testing.)

I'm too cautious to say that the dried grease theory is absolutely
impossible (others will probably take care of that for me), but it
strikes me as extremely improbable.

I think that I'm supposed to snarl at you for--well, for something,
but I'm not sure what. Besides, this savage picture indicates my
reaction better:

http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/wsb/media/286143/graphic_pub.jpg

Grease is an oil-saturated soap, and the faint resistance of dried
soap against small bearings isn't likely to be noticeable after you
twist the handlebars back and forth a single time. I expect that the
foot-long-leverage of each handlebar would immediately scour the
balls
right through anything less than dried epoxy. (Think of the kind of
pressure on the balls with the rider sitting on the bike.)

As for the rebuild, it's unlikely that there's any need for
adjustment
and testing. The dimples in the metal are obvious as soon as you
wipe
the grease out of the races. (After all, you can easily feel the
metal
parts that are supposed to move smoothly jerking from one preferred
position to the next!)

You can reassemble things to try to mismatch the dimplings in the
races, but it's not worth the trouble and isn't the same thing as
adjusting a normal, undamaged headset.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

I don't think even the dachsund's surprise is warranted, but I'm glad
you're not snarling.

I've found in my bikes that the indexed feeling is not always
accompanied by fatal wear. I've also found that in re-installing used
headsets, that if the cups and crown race are in square, and its clean
internally, AND on reassembly I can't adjust the bearing properly,
it's a dead part and I need either to replace the bad race(s) or get a
new headset. Being a cheap retro-grouch, I'm pleased that I've saved
a bit of money by not always replacing (not a lot!), and learned a bit
about using my senses to perform repairs. This is in addition to
understanding the theory and consulting the Written Law.

Your statement, "..it's unlikely there's any need for adjustment and
testing" is too general, and in another of my humble opinions, usually
wrong. Now perhaps I just don't screw things together right, but if I
don't test a repair before depending on it in a nice long ride, I
usually get a nasty surprise. Not good advice to give a newbie. It's
also possible to install new parts wrong, and testing is one way to
detect the problem.

Please notice I did not recommend the dimple mismatch strategy. I
have tried it and not found it to work.

I envy other cyclists who can wrench right the first time.

Ken "still practicing" Freeman

David Griffith said:

I hung my 80's Guerciotti road bike from the ceiling of my garage. The
front wheel hung on a hook. My Pinarello took its place as the daily ride.

I took the Guerciotti down after hanging for about a year, pumped up the
tires, put on new stem & moustache handlebars, adjusted brakes and went
for a ride.

I noticed right away a problem apparently with the headset (Campagnolo
Record): there is a 'groove' in the straight-ahead position. The
headset seems to favor this groove quite a bit. The bars 'lock'
straight ahead and it takes a bit of an effort to move them from this
position.

Some questions:

1. Could hanging the bike cause the 'groove'?

No

Quoted message said:

2. How might this condition be remedied?

Overhaul HS, install loose balls, not in the cages.

Quoted message said:

3. Will my LBS take the entire headset off the frame to make a repair?
If so, I'd like to paint the frame.

No need to take the cups out for an overhaul. I suspect the HS was to
tight, causing the pitts.

Quoted message said:

4. I notice a difficulty riding the bike without my hands on the bars.
The bike didn't seem to want to go straight, but would veer to the left
or right. Could that be caused by the 'groove'?

Yes...

Quoted message said:

Thanks in advance for any help this group might offer.

David Griffith

Ken said:

I don't think even the dachsund's.....

Bassett hound.

D'ohBoy, a picker of nits.