Heat index and quality training

Interesting information....

http://www.zunis.org/index.html

"Phil M." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I know we've discussed this recently and in the distant past. In fact, I
recall a thread on this newsgroup between Mike Tennent and I back in '98.
Go here for some interesting talk - http://tinyurl.com/6s2ue

One dark day on Usenet, "JR" <[email hidden]> said
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Interesting information....

http://www.zunis.org/index.html

Yep. Been there several times, even back in '98. However, there's nothing
there to answer my original question.

Phil M.

Quoted message said:

"Phil M." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I know we've discussed this recently and in the distant past. In
fact, I recall a thread on this newsgroup between Mike Tennent and I
back in '98. Go here for some interesting talk -
http://tinyurl.com/6s2ue

Phil M. said:

I did a tempo run yesterday while it was 93°F (96° heat index). 21 minute
warmup, 45 minutes at tempo pace, 28 minute cooldown (11 miles total). My
normal tempo pace (based on my HR) was slowed by more than a minute per
mile. During the cooldown my HR never would get into the cooldown zone. I
would have to find some shade and start walking in order to cooldown. So
I finished the run while staying in the low end of LT zone.

So I'm still wondering if running in these conditions is hurting or
helping me to perform at my best in much cooler temps. Some people

I think the important question to ask is, what is the purpose of the workout ?
Does the workout continue to serve that purpose when you perform it at the
lower pace ?

As far as your oxygen transport system is concerned, you are still putting
a lot of load on your system. Your heart is working just as hard.

On the other hand, your muscles are not contracting at the same rate.
According to the training theories advanced in Pfitzinger/Douglas, your
tempo run is specific to "LT". In practice, as Noakes argues, each training
intensity will probably impact a number of variables differentially. For
example, a beginner who undertook a program consisting exclusively of LT
training (or even LSD running) would observe running economy improvements,
simply because running is better for economy than not running.

So the point is that maybe you don't get as much running economy work out
of your tempo run, because the pace is slower. But this "should't" matter a
whole lot, provided that you're already doing specific running economy work
anyway.

Anyway, that's a whole lot of silly pontificating and rambling. In terms of
real data (N=1), I've observed that I run decent times off little more than
base training, even over distances much shorter than the marathon, and even
when the actual pace of speed work has been slowed by heat. Just do the
training. Your speed really is there, you just can't see it because of the
[censored] training conditions. If you have any doubts that your speed is there,
try running a short set of anaerobic reps (800 + 400 + 2x200) and see how you
do on them (these shouldn't be affected by the heat, because of the full
recoveries and relatively short duration). I bet an internet dollar that you've
still got it.

Quoted message said:

believe that it's like altitude training, but I disagree. I think the

Why do you disagree ?

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

One dark day on Usenet, Donovan Rebbechi <[email hidden]> said
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

real data (N=1), I've observed that I run decent times off little more
than base training, even over distances much shorter than the
Your speed really is there, you just
can't see it because of the [censored] training conditions.

That's a good way of putting it. After a month of not seeing it, a person
gets a little worried.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

believe that it's like altitude training, but I disagree. I think the

Why do you disagree ?

There is a lot of direct evidence to prove that training at altitude can
benefit your performance at sea level. But training in 90° heat does not
have an increased benefit to your race performance at 60°. It only has a
benefit if heat is a factor in the race. If you can show me otherwise, I
would be greatful.

Phil M.

--
If you can empty your own boat
Crossing the river of the world,
No one will oppose you,
No one will seek to harm you. -Chuang Tzu

Phil M. said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

believe that it's like altitude training, but I disagree. I think the

Why do you disagree ?

There is a lot of direct evidence to prove that training at altitude can
benefit your performance at sea level. But training in 90° heat does not
have an increased benefit to your race performance at 60°. It only has a

I don't know that it provides the same benefits as altitude training. But I
don't think it's any worse than training at a lower temperature either. At
worst, you won't be able to "see" your speed until you run under better conditions
(unless you try running a distance short enough that heat isn't a major factor)

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

One dark day on Usenet, Donovan Rebbechi <[email hidden]> said
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Why do you disagree ?

There is a lot of direct evidence to prove that training at altitude
can benefit your performance at sea level. But training in 90ø heat
does not have an increased benefit to your race performance at 60ø.
It only has a

I don't know that it provides the same benefits as altitude training.
But I don't think it's any worse than training at a lower temperature
either. At worst, you won't be able to "see" your speed until you run
under better conditions (unless you try running a distance short
enough that heat isn't a major factor)

I understand what you are saying, but I'm not convinced. I know that my
cardiovascular system is being stressed based on what my HRM is telling me.
But I don't buy the notion that running at a slower speed will train me to
run at a faster speed. My muscles are not being used in the same way.

Phil M.

Phil M. said:

I understand what you are saying, but I'm not convinced. I know that my

And we could pontificate all day, but it still wouldn't convince you. But
I have given you a suggestion as to how you could test your speed without
the heat interfering. Try it and see for yourself..

Quoted message said:

cardiovascular system is being stressed based on what my HRM is telling me.
But I don't buy the notion that running at a slower speed will train me to
run at a faster speed.

Sure it will. It trains you by improving your aerobic fitness. Better aerobic
fitness means more speed.

Quoted message said:

My muscles are not being used in the same way.

The purpose of slow running (or for that matter, tempo runs, which are still
quite slow) is *NOT* to train your muscles. To train your muscles (and in
particular, to improve running economy), both Pfitzinger/Douglas and Daniels
advocate anaerobic repetitions. Tempo runs don't train your muscles for racing
now that your pace is reduced, *but they never did that anyway*. (See Pfitzinger
and Douglas's comments on running economy and how to improve it)

That said, maintenance is easier than improvement -- even reduced pace tempo should
be good enough to preserve your speed, especially if you combine it with strides
or 4x200 reps at the end of the workout (Daniels recommends the latter -- it's a
way to get some maintenance running economy work when you're emphasising tempos)

If you're worried that your muscular system is not receiving enough training
because your tempo work is slowed down, you could always add running-economy
specific training (say, two sets of 800+400+2x200 with full recoveries). You
don't need to do that now, and it's of somewhat peripheral relevance to marathon
performance, but if you're really concerned about your speed declining, you could
do it, and it will do what it's supposed to do.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Phil - here's 1 data point for you.

Our club track coach, who is Ethiopian is also 1 of the coaches of the
Israeli olympic marathon runner, Haile Satain.
Satain, an Israeli Ethiopian is currently preparing for Athens with the
Ethiopian olympic marathoners. I asked our
coach about their plans for heat acclimitisation. It is now winter in
Ethiopia and they are training in cool conditions at altitude.

He said they have 2 options. Either arrive 2 weeks before the
marathon and adjust to the heat, or arrive the day before the
race. He said that they have decided to arrive the day before the race.

Anthony.

Phil M. said:

One dark day on Usenet, Donovan Rebbechi <[email hidden]> said
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Why do you disagree ?
>
>
There is a lot of direct evidence to prove that training at altitude
can benefit your performance at sea level. But training in 90ø heat
does not have an increased benefit to your race performance at 60ø.
It only has a

I don't know that it provides the same benefits as altitude training.
But I don't think it's any worse than training at a lower temperature
either. At worst, you won't be able to "see" your speed until you run
under better conditions (unless you try running a distance short
enough that heat isn't a major factor)

I understand what you are saying, but I'm not convinced. I know that my
cardiovascular system is being stressed based on what my HRM is telling me.
But I don't buy the notion that running at a slower speed will train me to
run at a faster speed. My muscles are not being used in the same way.

Phil M.

One dark day on Usenet, Anthony <[email hidden]> said
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Phil - here's 1 data point for you.

Our club track coach, who is Ethiopian is also 1 of the coaches of
the
Israeli olympic marathon runner, Haile Satain.
Satain, an Israeli Ethiopian is currently preparing for Athens with
the Ethiopian olympic marathoners. I asked our
coach about their plans for heat acclimitisation. It is now winter in
Ethiopia and they are training in cool conditions at altitude.

He said they have 2 options. Either arrive 2 weeks before the
marathon and adjust to the heat, or arrive the day before the
race. He said that they have decided to arrive the day before the
race.

Thanks. That makes sense, but I'm doing the opposite of this. Training in
the hot temps and racing in the cool temps.

Phil M.

Quoted message said:

Anthony.

Phil M. said:

One dark day on Usenet, Donovan Rebbechi <[email hidden]> said
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

>>Why do you disagree ?
>>
>>
>There is a lot of direct evidence to prove that training at altitude
>can benefit your performance at sea level. But training in 90ø heat
>does not have an increased benefit to your race performance at 60ø.
>It only has a
>
>
I don't know that it provides the same benefits as altitude training.
But I don't think it's any worse than training at a lower temperature
either. At worst, you won't be able to "see" your speed until you run
under better conditions (unless you try running a distance short
enough that heat isn't a major factor)

I understand what you are saying, but I'm not convinced. I know that
my cardiovascular system is being stressed based on what my HRM is
telling me. But I don't buy the notion that running at a slower speed
will train me to run at a faster speed. My muscles are not being used
in the same way.

Phil M.

Attachment decoded: untitled-2.txt
--------------070907080200020200060208
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
<title></title>
</head>
<body>
Phil - here's 1 data point for you.<br>
<br>
Our club track coach, who is Ethiopian is also 1 of the coaches
of the Israeli olympic marathon runner, Haile Satain.<br>
Satain, an Israeli Ethiopian is currently preparing for Athens with
the Ethiopian olympic marathoners. I asked our <br>
coach about their plans for heat acclimitisation. It is now
winter in Ethiopia and they are training in cool conditions at
altitude.<br> <br>
He said they have 2 options. Either arrive 2 weeks before
the marathon and adjust to the heat, or arrive the day before the <br>
race. He said that they have decided to arrive the day before
the race.<br> <br>
Anthony.<br>
<br>
Phil M. wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="[email hidden]">
<pre wrap="">One dark day on Usenet, Donovan Rebbechi <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="[email hidden]"><[email hidden]></a> said
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="news:[email hidden]:">news:slrncg8o2m.2i1.
[email hidden]:</a>

</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Why do you disagree ?
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">There is a lot of direct evidence to prove that
training at altitude
can benefit your performance at sea level. But training in 90&oslash;
heat does not have an increased benefit to your race performance at
60&oslash;. It only has a
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">I don't know that it provides the same benefits as
altitude training.
But I don't think it's any worse than training at a lower temperature
either. At worst, you won't be able to "see" your speed until you run
under better conditions (unless you try running a distance short
enough that heat isn't a major factor)
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
I understand what you are saying, but I'm not convinced. I know that
my cardiovascular system is being stressed based on what my HRM is
telling me. But I don't buy the notion that running at a slower speed
will train me to run at a faster speed. My muscles are not being used
in the same way.

Phil M.

"Phil M." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Why do you disagree ?

There is a lot of direct evidence to prove that training at altitude

can

Quoted message said:

benefit your performance at sea level.

Recent science (last 5-8 years or so) says sleep high and train low and
thus high elevation training is not the panacea as once thought.

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0323.htm is just one. Hit
http://www.pponline.co.uk and search on altitude training.

-DougF

One dark day on Usenet, "Doug Freese" <[email hidden]> said
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

"Phil M." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Why do you disagree ?

There is a lot of direct evidence to prove that training at altitude

can

Quoted message said:

benefit your performance at sea level.

Recent science (last 5-8 years or so) says sleep high and train low and
thus high elevation training is not the panacea as once thought.

What about recent science concerning training in heat and racing in cooler
temps?

Phil M.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Phil M. said:

I know we've discussed this recently and in the distant past. In fact, I
recall a thread on this newsgroup between Mike Tennent and I back in '98.
Go here for some interesting talk - http://tinyurl.com/6s2ue

My question below still remains unanswered.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What I'm wondering though, is when training in all this heat are
you ever able to really train at a level that would go along with
your predicted race time (if the race is run at cooler temps)?
I would think that ideally (though maybe not possible) you would
want to train in conditions that would be similar to your goal
race.

Certainly that's the ideal. Specificity is advantageous in
most things. But then, recall that we don't train for marathons
by running marathons. Selective specificity?

[snip]

Quoted message said:

I did a tempo run yesterday while it was 93°F (96° heat index). 21 minute
warmup, 45 minutes at tempo pace, 28 minute cooldown (11 miles total). My
normal tempo pace (based on my HR) was slowed by more than a minute per
mile. During the cooldown my HR never would get into the cooldown zone. I
would have to find some shade and start walking in order to cooldown. So
I finished the run while staying in the low end of LT zone.

So I'm still wondering if running in these conditions is hurting or
helping me to perform at my best in much cooler temps. Some people
believe that it's like altitude training, but I disagree. I think the
only possible advantage I may have is that if there is a heat wave in
Chicago on October 10th.

Statistical weather data for Atlanta, GA shows that the warmest days are
from June 1 to August 10, with an average high of 88°. So if I can
survive through mid August, I'll be happy. Soon we'll be discussing
winter running clothing again. ;-)

Heat cranks up pulse rate for a given non-sprint distance and pace.
(I don't know if it does for sprints, but don't worry about it.) That's
just one of the facts of our lives. Consequently a particular pulse
rate in heat does not equate to the same pace. As you say, it's been
discussed before.

My couple of cents, as I'm now in my second or third summer with an
HRM ...

Running at your good weather 'tempo' heart rate in the hot/humid does
not train you very effectively to run at that same heart rate in good
weather. You have to run with the greater stride length to support
the speed you want to be maintaining in good weather, and you don't
practice that in your hot/humid weather running. Tempo runs need to
be sustained for a significant period, and to sustain a significant
duration, you have to deal with dissipating heat.

On the other hand, workouts that don't require me to hold elevated
pace for extended periods, seem to work out more or less equally between
summer and good weather. The 'kenyan' type workout of 40-60 minutes
starting at LSD pace (effort) and finishing up with a couple of quick
(10mile to 10k effort) miles, seems to work well for me regardless of
weather. That's one that ought to be good for your marathon
preparation anyhow.

Others that seem to work well even in hot/humid are: fartlek, hills,
VO2 and faster intervals. The fartlek and hills, or hill routes on
relaxed days, are probably good for your marathon prep. VO2 intervals
are probably not very important, but might be a way for you to remind
your legs of what it feels like to open up the stride.

In terms of the conditions helping or hurting ... you have the
conditions you have. I think the more useful question is what workouts
can you do in the circumstances to get you best to race day. I'd
go with dropping tempo runs and long (mile and up) intervals in the
worst of the heat/humid (but, if you get a break in the weather, jump
on the opportunity to round out the training) and focus on the
base and strength workouts for now. (That's what you'd be planning
on anyhow at this remove from race day.)

--
Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links.
Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much
evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they
would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

Robert Grumbine said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Running at your good weather 'tempo' heart rate in the hot/humid does
not train you very effectively to run at that same heart rate in good
weather. You have to run with the greater stride length to support
the speed you want to be maintaining in good weather, and you don't
practice that in your hot/humid weather running.

I don't quite understand what you mean here -- do you mean that you have
to run with a greater stride length to support the speed you want to
be maintaining *for a tempo run in good weather*, or *for a race in
good weather* ?

I'm guessing you meant the latter, but if so, then why would a 5-10k
specialist bother with tempo runs, which are much slower than their goal
race ?

FWIW, Bob Glover certainly hasn't given us a break from long intervals (1-2.4
miles) and tempos this summer, in fact it seems we seldom do anything else
these days. A lot of our people are training for the NY marathon.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Good idea about doing the speedwork when there are breaks in the weather.
Also, speedwork now for an October marathon is in its early phases and as
September rolls around your training plan will be in the sharpening phase
anyway, so that final work period is what will tune all of your previous
training for the race. Look at it this way, if it's hot you'll be prepared.
Ideal running weather is what 45-50? Anything over that will benefit from
all the heat training you've done.

- Tony

Robert Grumbine wrote in message <[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Phil M. said:

I know we've discussed this recently and in the distant past. In fact, I
recall a thread on this newsgroup between Mike Tennent and I back in '98.
Go here for some interesting talk - http://tinyurl.com/6s2ue

My question below still remains unanswered.

Quoted message said:

> What I'm wondering though, is when training in all this heat are
> you ever able to really train at a level that would go along with
> your predicted race time (if the race is run at cooler temps)?
> I would think that ideally (though maybe not possible) you would
> want to train in conditions that would be similar to your goal
> race.

Certainly that's the ideal. Specificity is advantageous in
most things. But then, recall that we don't train for marathons
by running marathons. Selective specificity?

[snip]

Quoted message said:

I did a tempo run yesterday while it was 93°F (96° heat index). 21 minute
warmup, 45 minutes at tempo pace, 28 minute cooldown (11 miles total). My
normal tempo pace (based on my HR) was slowed by more than a minute per
mile. During the cooldown my HR never would get into the cooldown zone. I
would have to find some shade and start walking in order to cooldown. So
I finished the run while staying in the low end of LT zone.

So I'm still wondering if running in these conditions is hurting or
helping me to perform at my best in much cooler temps. Some people
believe that it's like altitude training, but I disagree. I think the
only possible advantage I may have is that if there is a heat wave in
Chicago on October 10th.

Statistical weather data for Atlanta, GA shows that the warmest days are
from June 1 to August 10, with an average high of 88°. So if I can
survive through mid August, I'll be happy. Soon we'll be discussing
winter running clothing again. ;-)

Heat cranks up pulse rate for a given non-sprint distance and pace.
(I don't know if it does for sprints, but don't worry about it.) That's
just one of the facts of our lives. Consequently a particular pulse
rate in heat does not equate to the same pace. As you say, it's been
discussed before.

My couple of cents, as I'm now in my second or third summer with an
HRM ...

Running at your good weather 'tempo' heart rate in the hot/humid does
not train you very effectively to run at that same heart rate in good
weather. You have to run with the greater stride length to support
the speed you want to be maintaining in good weather, and you don't
practice that in your hot/humid weather running. Tempo runs need to
be sustained for a significant period, and to sustain a significant
duration, you have to deal with dissipating heat.

On the other hand, workouts that don't require me to hold elevated
pace for extended periods, seem to work out more or less equally between
summer and good weather. The 'kenyan' type workout of 40-60 minutes
starting at LSD pace (effort) and finishing up with a couple of quick
(10mile to 10k effort) miles, seems to work well for me regardless of
weather. That's one that ought to be good for your marathon
preparation anyhow.

Others that seem to work well even in hot/humid are: fartlek, hills,
VO2 and faster intervals. The fartlek and hills, or hill routes on
relaxed days, are probably good for your marathon prep. VO2 intervals
are probably not very important, but might be a way for you to remind
your legs of what it feels like to open up the stride.

In terms of the conditions helping or hurting ... you have the
conditions you have. I think the more useful question is what workouts
can you do in the circumstances to get you best to race day. I'd
go with dropping tempo runs and long (mile and up) intervals in the
worst of the heat/humid (but, if you get a break in the weather, jump
on the opportunity to round out the training) and focus on the
base and strength workouts for now. (That's what you'd be planning
on anyhow at this remove from race day.)

--
Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur

activities notes and links.

Quoted message said:

Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too

much

Quoted message said:

evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than

they

Quoted message said:

would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New

Sciences

In article <[email hidden]>,

Donovan Rebbechi said:

FWIW, Bob Glover certainly hasn't given us a break from long intervals (1-2.4
miles) and tempos this summer, in fact it seems we seldom do anything else
these days. A lot of our people are training for the NY marathon.

Are you running in Atlanta, GA, with its weather, or in NY, with
its (cooler, drier) weather?

--
Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links.
Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much
evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they
would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

One dark day on Usenet, [email hidden] (Robert Grumbine) said
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Phil M. said:

I know we've discussed this recently and in the distant past. In fact,
I recall a thread on this newsgroup between Mike Tennent and I back in
'98. Go here for some interesting talk - http://tinyurl.com/6s2ue

My question below still remains unanswered.

Quoted message said:

> What I'm wondering though, is when training in all this heat are
> you ever able to really train at a level that would go along with
> your predicted race time (if the race is run at cooler temps)?
> I would think that ideally (though maybe not possible) you would
> want to train in conditions that would be similar to your goal
> race.

Certainly that's the ideal. Specificity is advantageous in
most things. But then, recall that we don't train for marathons
by running marathons. Selective specificity?

[snip]

Quoted message said:

I did a tempo run yesterday while it was 93°F (96° heat index). 21
minute warmup, 45 minutes at tempo pace, 28 minute cooldown (11 miles
total). My normal tempo pace (based on my HR) was slowed by more than
a minute per mile. During the cooldown my HR never would get into the
cooldown zone. I would have to find some shade and start walking in
order to cooldown. So I finished the run while staying in the low end
of LT zone.

So I'm still wondering if running in these conditions is hurting or
helping me to perform at my best in much cooler temps. Some people
believe that it's like altitude training, but I disagree. I think the
only possible advantage I may have is that if there is a heat wave in
Chicago on October 10th.

Statistical weather data for Atlanta, GA shows that the warmest days
are from June 1 to August 10, with an average high of 88°. So if I can
survive through mid August, I'll be happy. Soon we'll be discussing
winter running clothing again. ;-)

Heat cranks up pulse rate for a given non-sprint distance and pace.
(I don't know if it does for sprints, but don't worry about it.)
That's just one of the facts of our lives. Consequently a particular
pulse rate in heat does not equate to the same pace. As you say, it's
been discussed before.

My couple of cents, as I'm now in my second or third summer with an
HRM ...

Running at your good weather 'tempo' heart rate in the hot/humid
does
not train you very effectively to run at that same heart rate in good
weather. You have to run with the greater stride length to support
the speed you want to be maintaining in good weather, and you don't
practice that in your hot/humid weather running. Tempo runs need to
be sustained for a significant period, and to sustain a significant
duration, you have to deal with dissipating heat.

Yes, that's the problem. But maybe like Donovan says:

Quoted message said:

So the point is that maybe you don't get as much running economy
workout of your tempo run, because the pace is slower. But this
"should't" matter a whole lot, provided that you're already
doing specific running economy work anyway.

and

Quoted message said:

Your speed really is there, you just can't see it because of the
[censored] training conditions

But you seem to think that the hot weather is a deterrent to quality
training for a race to be held in cool weather.

Quoted message said:

On the other hand, workouts that don't require me to hold elevated
pace for extended periods, seem to work out more or less equally
between summer and good weather. The 'kenyan' type workout of 40-60
minutes starting at LSD pace (effort) and finishing up with a couple
of quick (10mile to 10k effort) miles, seems to work well for me
regardless of weather. That's one that ought to be good for your
marathon preparation anyhow.

Others that seem to work well even in hot/humid are: fartlek, hills,
VO2 and faster intervals. The fartlek and hills, or hill routes on
relaxed days, are probably good for your marathon prep. VO2 intervals
are probably not very important, but might be a way for you to remind
your legs of what it feels like to open up the stride.

Unfortunately, I'm in a Lactate Threshold phase right now in my training
which will last until August 15. After that, it's more VO2 and tune-up
races.

Quoted message said:

In terms of the conditions helping or hurting ... you have the
conditions you have.

True, but another option is to just run in the early morning and this whole
question as to quality of training can be dropped. The question will still
be out there, but I won't have to worry about it for now.

Phil M.

--
If you can empty your own boat
Crossing the river of the world,
No one will oppose you,
No one will seek to harm you. -Chuang Tzu

Robert Grumbine said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Donovan Rebbechi said:

FWIW, Bob Glover certainly hasn't given us a break from long intervals (1-2.4
miles) and tempos this summer, in fact it seems we seldom do anything else
these days. A lot of our people are training for the NY marathon.

Are you running in Atlanta, GA, with its weather, or in NY, with
its (cooler, drier) weather?

NY. It's hot enough to slow pace on a tempo run down by 20 seconds per mile on
a bad day, so a tempo run would be somewhat slower than any race I'd run in
cool conditions, but it's nowhere near as severe as what Phil describes.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Donovan,

I'll re-phrase Phil's question slightly. It's an old discussion we've
played around with several times.

Say you have two runners of identical ability. One trains in Bangor,
Maine, the other in Atlanta, GA.

They do virtually identical workouts for 6 months, consisting of
tempo, LSD, etc monitoring their exertion with HRM's, staying within
identical ranges.

However, because of the significant difference in temperature and it's
effect on the body, The Maine runner's average speed for all the
workouts is about 45 seconds per mile faster than his southern
compatriot.

Given the old adage that you "train fast to run fast, train slow to
run slow," it would appear that in a race at a neutral site, the
Maine runner would have the advantage, having trained at a faster
overall rate.

Otherwise, you could create a new adage, train slow in the heat, beat
them Yankees anyway..." <g>

Mike Tennent
"IronPenguin"

In article <[email hidden]>,

Donovan Rebbechi said:

Robert Grumbine said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Donovan Rebbechi said:

FWIW, Bob Glover certainly hasn't given us a break from long intervals (1-2.4
miles) and tempos this summer, in fact it seems we seldom do anything else
these days. A lot of our people are training for the NY marathon.

Are you running in Atlanta, GA, with its weather, or in NY, with
its (cooler, drier) weather?

NY. It's hot enough to slow pace on a tempo run down by 20 seconds per mile on
a bad day, so a tempo run would be somewhat slower than any race I'd run in
cool conditions, but it's nowhere near as severe as what Phil describes.

That's why the different perspectives. I checked the climatology
a bit, especially the dew points, and mine are closer to his than yours,
and are already bad enough to be worth more like 40-60 seconds/mile
(to me) on a tempo-type run. I'm definitely on the end of being more
affected by hot and humid than most people. But, then again, he's
also got worse heat and humidity to deal with. The pace difference is
enough that I feel that such training serves mostly to beat me up, but
not do much towards racing, lactic tolerance, running efficiency, or
anything else one is trying to train either biochemically or biomechanically
in preparation for a race in cooler weather.

Now, if the race were liable to be in hot/humid conditions, absolutely
do the tempo runs in hot/humid conditions. Specificity is required there,
and Dr. Clark showed the merits. But Chicago is just not that
hot and humid in early October. Even if the temperature gets high, by
running standards, the humidity doesn't (well, much less often than the
temperature) get high in October.

--
Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links.
Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much
evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they
would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences