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Helmet Survey

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UK and Europe
Published
28 March 2003
Last activity
12 April 2003
Original author
Steve McGinty
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  1. "Robert Goodman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "David Damerell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Motorcycle-style helmets would be unfeasibly hot on bicycles - even a


    face

    Quoted message said:

    shield would result in gallons of sweat running into the eyes.
    --


    Then how about the type of helmet used in American football, with one or more bars in front of the
    face, and otherwise open?

    Why? you're assuming that there would be a benefit, which is not proven. Given that all the claims
    for cycle helmets have been shown to be wishful thinking and counterproductive (fewer people riding
    bikes, more heart disease etc etc) why try to make out that cycling is dangerous?

    Rich

  2. "Daniel Auger" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Robert Goodman said:

    Which makes me wonder why they don't have face shields like motorcylce helmets, or are those
    useless in impact situations too?

    I have come off a bike three times in my life. On each occasion, I have received non-serious but
    painful knee injuries. I sometimes wonder whether I ought to be wearing protective knee pads? :-)

    Not only should you have been wearing knee pads, but you should now be advocating that they be
    compuslory!

    Rich

    Quoted message said:


    --
    Daniel Auger - [email hidden] (Please remove Granta to get a valid address.)

  3. "j-p.s" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Fri, 04 Apr 2003 11:27:49 GMT, drifter scrawled: There seems to be lots of *anecdotal* evidence
    about how helmets *do* help to reduce the severity of crashes. Both a friend and I have had
    crashes where there's no doubt that the presence of a helmet resulted in minor injuries to me, and
    only a grazed cheek to my friend.

    Anecdotal is just that - one person's experience. I well remember a helmet-extremist at a local
    cycle forum: he categorically stated that all cyclists should wear a helmet, as a result of his
    experience when he fell off at 35+mph. Of course, his position was somewhat undermined when he
    admitted that he wasn't actually wearing a helmet at the time.

    I've fallen off dozens of times, I am 51, but I think I still retain most of my marbles: I can still
    solve the Times chess problem, but I don't wear a helmet. Why not? because I believe the evidence,
    not anecdotes.

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    With that in mind, I'd be interested in (reasonable, un-Damerell i.e.


    open to discussion) theories as to why this anecdotal evidence somehow doesn't affect the
    statistics.

    Quite obvious when you think about it: the people whose lives weren't saved by the helmet they were
    wearing don't respond with anecdotes.

    I wonder why helmets don't seem to change

    Quoted message said:

    the overall severity of accidents, even when in individual accidents that I hear about, there's
    often no doubt that a helmet has done some real good.

    As already shown on this thread, risk compensation is a significant effect, but there are also the
    injuries caused by helmets: several children were "hanged" by their helmet straps in Scandinavia
    (with the result that legislation ensures that helmets fly off at the first contact, so that the
    second impact will be fatal) and that helmets increase and cause rotational injuries. The latest
    research from Australia postulates that rotational injuries are far more important that straight
    impact injuries, so that helmets are actually increasing your risk of an injury.

    Quoted message said:


    Personally I swear by helmets: from very personal experience. But I want to understand why the
    stats seem to prove me wrong for "the average cyclist." Who is having the near-death experiences
    that make up for my narrow squeaks? And isn't he or she getting sick of it? Do helmets encourage
    more reckless behaviour in some cyclists, or even in some motorists?

    To be my own worst enemy, yes there is anecdotal evidence that drivers behave more dangerously
    towards unhelmeted cyclists. It would certainly be interesting to investigate this further.

    Rich

  4. "[Not Responding]" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    j-p.s said:

    On Fri, 04 Apr 2003 14:21:09 +0100, Peter Clinch scrawled: ) Liability is a non-issue in the UK,
    helmets aren't compulsory here.

    Neither are parts of the Highway Code; yet they still translate into liability. Is it really
    different for helmets, given the HC recommends wearing them?

    J-P

    Faced with a massive bill of costs, an insurance company's lawyers will worry away at anything
    that might prove to be 'contributory negligence'. It's no different with helmets and there have
    been several 'reduced' out of court settlements on that premis.

    It is well known that the CTC have fought several such cases, and there has been no reduction in
    damages in those cases. Do you know of others where there has been a reduction? BTW I think you
    mean premise.

    None have

    Quoted message said:

    yet taken it to the wire and had a judgement on the issue (AIUI). I do wonder if the negative
    publicity they get might have something to do with it.

  5. "Robert Goodman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Mike Sales" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Since 1991 the number of head injuries to cyclists in the USA has
    increased by 10% whilst cycle helmet use has risen sharply from less


    than

    Quoted message said:

    18% to around 50%. Furthermore, ridership over the period has declined


    by

    Quoted message said:

    21%.

    I'm interested in that last stat. Aging population? Does "ridership" mean persons, person-hours,
    person-miles? If persons, is it persons who self-describe as cyclists, or persons who say they've
    ridden at least once during some previous period of time?

    What I'm guessing is that the increase in helmet use might reflect the remaining riders
    considering themselves more "serious" because they ride more frequently, longer distances, and
    especially faster. Either that or as older riders age out, younger ones are more predisposed to
    wear helmets because they don't remember the time before people wore them, or because they were
    made to wear them (in some cases by statute) as children.

    More likely that 21% of the population was disuaded from cycling because it was dangerous: it must
    be dangerous, you had to wear safety equipment to do
    it. No stats available about any possible increase in CHD due to lack of exercise.

    Rich

  6. On Fri, 4 Apr 2003 20:44:40 +0100 someone who may be "Mr R@t \(2.3 zulu-alpha\) [comms room 2]"
    <[email hidden]> wrote this:-

    Quoted message said:

    At least one Department of the Civil Service has published a risk assesment for "Driving at Work"
    (the Department has a lot of field officers who travel in an official capacity).

    Does it recommend car helmets though? In the road "safety" lobby's terms these would "save more
    lives" than cycle helmets, whether one measures this in absolute or relative terms.

    --
    David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E I will always explain revoked
    keys, unless the UK government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.

  7. In "]news:[email hidden], Mike Sales <[email hidden]> typed:

    Quoted message said:

    possible that wearing a helmet changes behaviour towards risk. A recent informal study in the
    January issue of "Bike" (a motorcycle magazine) found that riders slowed considerably when they
    wore underwear rather than full leathers.

    Understandable - if you are riding a motorbike in December/January wearing only your pants, the wind
    chill factor is *bound* to make you go a bit slower 🙂

    Alex

  8. "Mr R@t (2.3 zulu-alpha) [comms room 2]" wrote in message

    Mike Sales <[email hidden]> typed:

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    possible that wearing a helmet changes behaviour towards risk. A recent informal study in the
    January issue of "Bike" (a motorcycle magazine) found that riders slowed considerably when they
    wore underwear rather than full leathers.

    Understandable - if you are riding a motorbike in December/January wearing only your pants, the
    wind chill factor is *bound* to make you go a bit slower 🙂

    Alex


    Top speeds, in mph, reached with different levels of protection B-road town leathers pants leathers
    pants Steve 126 92 36 28 Hugo 115 84 38 27 Luke 124 105 35 29 Maria* 120 65 31 25
    * Maria wore pyjamas instead of underpants As I hope you can see from this table, the riders were
    first on a quiet B road, where they slowed somewhat when in underpants, and then in a town, where
    they still felt it necessary to slow even further (typically 30s to
    20s) even though they had previously been comfortable at two or three times the speed on the open
    road, whilst dressed in chilly underpants. It would surely have been quite obvious to the
    experimenters if the reason for slowing was cold. I don't have the mag with me, but it is not
    necessarily the case that the experiment was done just before publication. Are you trying to
    maintain that a motorcyclist in leathers would not ride any faster than one in underpants?
    Mike Sales

  9. On Fri, 4 Apr 2003 19:25:08 +0100, Mike Sales scrawled: ) I think you have put your finger on it.
    The answer is Risk Compensation, or ) Risk Homeostasis. I believe that we do change our behaviour
    according to our ) circumstances. To deny this is to deny our nature.

    Yeah, I can see that. I think this may be true for the sum total of cyclists.

    But to play the statistics game and assume that a helmet can do a *u.r.c* denizen (on average) no
    good because it does the average cyclist no good: surely that denies the fact that we are /not/
    average cyclists here? I hope nobody here is insulted if I suggest that we're nowhere near the
    centre of the bell curve. Although I don't have the stats to back it up, then I think we here would
    be the more considerate subset of cyclists. As such, we are unlikely to buy helmets, with the
    intention of increasing safety, and then to start cycling less safe because of them.

    But maybe as you say this is a largely unconscious, or at least unconscienced, thing, though. Like
    the push-pull effect that means that in some cities cyclists will just "get away with" less legal
    manoeuvres than in others because one develops a feel for the mean traffic flow around you. Once you
    know the environment then you simply adapt. Hum. I don't know how well that adaptation occurs.

    (Perhaps, then - if you'll permit gross rationalization after the fact - the advantage of helmets is
    that, without decreasing safety, they allow a cyclist to cycle in a more convenient way, in a busy,
    aggressive environment! They permit cyclists to conscience less safe actions while keeping the mean
    safety level constant...!)

    ) Unless you believe that you cannot possibly cycle any more safely, ) because your riding is
    perfect. I think that our behaviour in the ) rapidly changing circumstances we meet with on the road
    is only partly ) under our concious control.

    That's true, but I'd also say that I find it hard to consider something as far removed from
    intellect as a cycling helmet altering my intuitive behaviour: I feel that as a safety gadget it's
    too intellectualized and would only alter my considered, willed behaviour. Example: if I were a car
    driver, I don't think that the fact that I was insured for first-party damages would make me more
    intuitively reckless. It might affect my deliberate behaviour, but I find it hard to see my
    "subconscious" (bleah) making the connection. An insurance policy is more abstracted than a helmet,
    but maybe that's a point against intuitive risk homeostasis..

    Did the wearing of helmets by miners, or builders, produce the same homeostatic effect? Or are
    such professions so highly regulated already that they don't have enough leeway to shift the risk
    bubble around?

    ) If you want to discuss it here I would be happy to oblige. Though you ) may, since you seem to
    dislike David Damerel's posts, find the you consider ) mine too as unreasonable.

    Not at all. You at least admit other points of view without belittling them. Many thanks 🙂

    J-P
    --
    We were doomed from the start Reading too much Dostoevsky has made me flip

  10. On Sat, 5 Apr 2003 22:27:01 +0100, Richard Burton scrawled: ) Anecdotal is just that - one person's
    experience.

    I appreciate that, which is why I was interested in how the sum total of the anecdotes I have heard
    can be (a) reconciled with the statistics and
    (b) permit there to be exceptions far from the mean for whom helmets are very detrimental or very
    useful. I don't like extrapolating from only my own experience, if the statistics state
    something entirely different.

    One possible resolution might be a breakdown of such statistics by cyclist demographic. It may be
    that e.g. very fast cyclists experience more rotation-based injuries because of their speed.
    Similarly I would hope to see that e.g. beginner cyclists fare much better with helmets, because
    most of their accidents are simply falling off the bike, with their head tending to hit the ground
    straight on, with very little rotation.

    ) I've fallen off dozens of times, I am 51, but I think I still retain most of ) my marbles: I can
    still solve the Times chess problem, but I don't wear a ) helmet. Why not? because I believe the
    evidence, not anecdotes.

    There's believing the evidence, and believing the predigested statistics. For me the sum total of
    the evidence is strong statistical affirmation of the null hypothesis, accompanied by equally
    strong anecdotal affirmation of the helmetty hypothesis. I must therefore convince myself that the
    statistics don't hide some sinister demon by the very nature of their smearing-out of the
    underlying data.

    I'm not saying I'm not convinceable by stats, by the way; I'd hope not to be so bull-headed,
    especially as I'm a scientist by profession! I just want to be certain of the explanation of
    the stats.

    J-P
    --
    Then it will conveniently Urinate in the Palm of your hand!!! Believe me my friend!!! Hand Held
    Technology just got a whole lot WARMER!!!

  11. In article <Pine.LNX.4.44.0304051414350.4969-100000 @mulgara.eng.cam.ac.uk>,
    [email hidden] says...

    Quoted message said:
    Robert Goodman said:

    Which makes me wonder why they don't have face shields like motorcylce helmets, or are those
    useless in impact situations too?

    I have come off a bike three times in my life. On each occasion, I have received non-serious but
    painful knee injuries. I sometimes wonder whether I ought to be wearing protective knee pads? :-)

    On the two times I have come off and really hurt myself I have suffered badly scuffed knuckles. On
    neither occasion was I wearing gloves or mitts. I now always wear them in the hope of a vague
    control experiment never occurring someday.

    I also broke my ribs once, maybe we should all wear those armoured body suits :-S

    Colin

  12. "Colin Blackburn" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:MPG.18fb4176ce4bb5559898c9@localhost...

    Quoted message said:

    I also broke my ribs once, maybe we should all wear those armoured body suits :-S

    I fell off on Saturday and managed to bruise my ribs quite badly as I came down on the end of handle
    bar using my breast-bone to stop.

    No serious damage but a precautionary trip to casualty (as I was finding it difficult to breath
    properly about 3 hours after the fall).

    I present to Casualty with badly bruised ribs and a minor graze to the knee.

    Q1. How did it happen?
    Q2. I fell off my bike.

    Q3. Were you wearing a helmet?
    Q4. No.

    Lecture -- you should. Response -- there are statistics that show there is little or no benefit in
    wearing a helmet. Body armour might have helped here. Reponses -- blank look.

    So I am now enter the hospital statistics as an irresponsible, non helmet wearing, injured cyclist.

    Another victory for woolly intuition over reality 🙁

  13. Richard Burton said:

    "Robert Goodman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:

    "David Damerell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:

    Motorcycle-style helmets would be unfeasibly hot on bicycles - even a face shield would result in
    gallons of sweat running into the eyes.


    Then how about the type of helmet used in American football, with one or more bars in front of the
    face, and otherwise open?


    Why? you're assuming that there would be a benefit, which is not proven.

    For reference, I am not. I'm merely commenting on the characteristics of motorcycle helmets.
    --
    David Damerell <[email hidden]> flcl?

  14. Colin Blackburn said:

    On the two times I have come off and really hurt myself I have suffered badly scuffed knuckles. On
    neither occasion was I wearing gloves or mitts.

    Those of us who type a lot can probably see benefit from padded gloves even if we never
    have a spill.
    --
    David Damerell <[email hidden]> flcl?

  15. Robert Goodman said:

    In 1991 went to Calif. to visit my sister, and was amused to see my little niece & nephew put on
    helmets to bicycle ride or roller skate -- neither of which caused them to move faster than I
    walk, and both of which they did on the sidewalk -- and then took them off to climb on monkey bars
    & other structures in a playground! Apparently they were following some arbitrary rules that
    wheels required helmets, and absence of wheels required they not be worn, regardless of the actual
    danger of the situation.

    There are non-arbitrary reasons not to wear a helmet on playground climbing frames - see
    bhsi.orgplaygrou.htm

    (Roller skating or cycling they may not have moved faster than you walking, but were probably more
    likely to fall over.)

  16. Steve McGinty stephenmcginty@ntlworld_DOT_.com said:

    I don't want to start another thread on the rights and wrongs of helmets, .....

    67 (and counting) posts later...

    Stephen

  17. "Alan Braggins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    In 1991 went to Calif. to visit my sister, and was amused to see my little niece & nephew put on
    helmets to bicycle ride or roller


    skate --

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    neither of which caused them to move faster than I walk, and both of which they did on the
    sidewalk -- and then took them off to climb on monkey bars & other structures in a playground!
    Apparently they


    were

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    following some arbitrary rules that wheels required helmets, and


    absence

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    of wheels required they not be worn, regardless of the actual danger


    of

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    the situation.

    Quoted message said:

    There are non-arbitrary reasons not to wear a helmet on playground climbing frames - see
    bhsi.orgplaygrou.htm

    Never thought of that! But do we know there haven't been a corresponding # of fatal head injuries
    prevented by helmets in playgrounds?

    Quoted message said:

    (Roller skating or cycling they may not have moved faster than you walking, but were probably more
    likely to fall over.)

    So let's say the average child falls down 100 times a year, and of those, 10 of those times are from
    wheels. The average # of falls in a given period of time are elevated by wheels over those from
    walking, and maybe slightly over those from running. If (and of course it's a big
    if) helmets are of use in such cases, does it really make sense to wear them only when on wheels?
    How about at other times of elevated fall danger, as when on stairs or in a bathtub? And if
    such times only increase the chance of falling by, say 2- or 3-fold, does it matter? How
    about 5-fold?

    And only the skates presented a greater chance of falling. With training wheels, the kids probably
    were more stable sitting on the bikes than walking.

    My own impression was that the increased "head size" and "head mass" produced by those styrofoam
    helmets on those little heads increased danger to the neck to a degree probably exceeding the degree
    of protection to the skull.

    Robert

  18. In message <[email hidden]>, Robert Goodman <[email hidden]> writes

    Quoted message said:

    "Alan Braggins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    In 1991 went to Calif. to visit my sister, and was amused to see my little niece & nephew put
    on helmets to bicycle ride or roller


    skate --

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    neither of which caused them to move faster than I walk, and both of which they did on the
    sidewalk -- and then took them off to climb on monkey bars & other structures in a playground!
    Apparently they


    were

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    following some arbitrary rules that wheels required helmets, and


    absence

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    of wheels required they not be worn, regardless of the actual danger


    of

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    the situation.

    Quoted message said:

    There are non-arbitrary reasons not to wear a helmet on playground climbing frames - see
    bhsi.orgplaygrou.htm

    Never thought of that! But do we know there haven't been a corresponding # of fatal head injuries
    prevented by helmets in playgrounds?

    Quoted message said:

    (Roller skating or cycling they may not have moved faster than you walking, but were probably
    more likely to fall over.)

    So let's say the average child falls down 100 times a year, and of those, 10 of those times are
    from wheels. The average # of falls in a given period of time are elevated by wheels over those
    from walking, and maybe slightly over those from running. If (and of course it's a big
    if) helmets are of use in such cases, does it really make sense to wear them only when on wheels?
    How about at other times of elevated fall danger, as when on stairs or in a bathtub? And if
    such times only increase the chance of falling by, say 2- or 3-fold, does it matter? How about
    5-fold?

    And only the skates presented a greater chance of falling. With training wheels, the kids probably
    were more stable sitting on the bikes than walking.

    My own impression was that the increased "head size" and "head mass" produced by those styrofoam
    helmets on those little heads increased danger to the neck to a degree probably exceeding the
    degree of protection to the skull.

    Quite. Some things really reinforce my faith in human idiocy. The Thudguard is actually a real
    helmet being marketed to save real urclings from, er, possibly terrible things. Like falling over
    and bonking their bonces. Or exploring their little worlds. Look at thudguard.comthudguard.com and
    laugh. Or weep.

    Complete with endorsements from the usual suspects. "Will make a valuable contribution in a similar
    way to cycle helmets......." Indeed.

    I asked for further information, but haven't heard much since. Possibly my endorsement wasn't quite
    so heartfelt as the wa^H^Hpromoter would have liked. Or perhaps this may have run out of steam. The
    site doesn't seem to have been updated since last autumn.

    Quoted message said:


    Robert

    --
    Richard Keatinge

    keatinge.netkeatinge.net

  19. Quoted message said:

    Quite. Some things really reinforce my faith in human idiocy. The Thudguard is actually a real
    helmet being marketed to save real urclings from, er, possibly terrible things. Like falling over
    and bonking their bonces. Or exploring their little worlds. Look at thudguard.comthudguard.com and
    laugh. Or weep.

    Complete with endorsements from the usual suspects. "Will make a valuable contribution in a
    similar way to cycle helmets......." Indeed.

    I went to the RoSPA site that the idiot quoted "Will make a valuable etc etc " concerned claimed to
    be representing. Couldn't find the actual quote, but the b*****t about cycle helmets has to be seen
    to be believed. All of the quoted "facts" on the Effectiveness of Cycle Helmets (A synopsis of
    selected research papers and medical articles, with "selected" being the operative word) section are
    out of date and very suspect (me being polite) while the advice is just laughable: "RoSPA recommends
    that all cyclists wear a cycle helmet that meets a recognised safety standard. Cycle helmets, when
    correctly worn, are effective in reducing the risk of receiving major head or brain injuries in an
    accident."

    OK Mr RoSPA, how come none of the whole population, robust, demonstrable, supported research shows
    what you say? Is RoSPA interested in reducing accidents and their effects or are you just a bunch of
    poseurs? Oh, and how come you won't quote the research which shows that helmets are a waste of time,
    only the out-dated stuff that supports your entrenched position?

    Answers on a postcard to: RoSPA Head Office: Edgbaston Park, 353 Bristol Road, Edgbaston, Birmingham
    B5 7ST, UK

    Cheers

    Rich

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