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Helmets

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UK and Europe
Published
19 April 2004
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26 November 2012
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Vivian
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  1. On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 14:20:38 +0100, Jon Senior
    <jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk> wrote (more or less):

    Quoted message said:

    [Not Responding] [email hidden] opined the
    following...

    Quoted message said:

    Cycling is recreational only in as much as driving to
    work or to the shops is recreational. Of course, for some
    people cycling or driving is a leisure activity but for
    most it is all just transport.

    Possibly. I know of few people that cycle-commute who don't
    also enjoy the activity.

    I cycle-commute because I think it's better all around than
    if I commute by car, rather than because of any intrinsic
    joy of the process of cycling.

    I'm sure there must be other utility cyclists who cycle for
    pragmatic reasons rather than the intrinsic joy.

    Cheers, Euan Gawnsoft: gawnsoft.co.srgawnsoft.co.sr
    Symbian/Epoc wiki: html.dnsalias.nethtml.dnsalias.net Smalltalk
    links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk)
    html.dnsalias.netsmalltalk

  2. Gawnsoft [email hidden]
    opined the following...

    Quoted message said:

    I cycle-commute because I think it's better all around
    than if I commute by car, rather than because of any
    intrinsic joy of the process of cycling.

    I'm sorry to hear that. Have you considered getting a more
    enjoyable bike? :-)

    I do accept that there are some people who do. I don't
    enjoy *every* ride to work. Sometimes, simply because I
    don't want to stop!

    Quoted message said:

    I'm sure there must be other utility cyclists who cycle
    for pragmatic reasons rather than the intrinsic joy.

    Those I know who cycle-commute do so as much for enjoyment
    as for pragmatism, so my view is that they represent the
    majority. (About as good a balanced study as many quoted
    recently!)

    Jon

  3. Quoted post said:

    posted by Gonzalez in response to Just Zis Guy

    <snip>
    The issue is about a helmet is being something *special* or
    otherwise. Given the fact that so many people wear helmets
    as part of their everyday life I do not consider it special.

    Do I take it form your diversion tactics that you agree that
    a helmet is nothing special?

    The issue is, according to Gonzo, exactly what he claims it to be - nothing more and nothing less.

    Regarding diversion tactics - I reckon Gonzo is the one who is doing the prevarication here - and his nitpicking and getting bogged down over not-so-important side issues is a diversion into inappropriate analogies.

    Who has need of resort to various analogies? Answer - someone who isn't able to stick to, and debate, the issue at hand - and why is that?

    Roger

  4. Patrick Herring said:


    A MHL would mean that if someone stole your helmet, and
    the traffic was very light, and you decided to cycle home
    anyway because you wanted to go out later and otherwise
    you'd be late, and a car drove into you giving you an
    injury that left you with a permanently lame leg, for
    e.g., you'd have no way of getting any compensation, none
    at all, zip, nada. There's no way you can get insurance
    against the effects of doing something illegal. So the MHL
    wouldn't just compel you to do something you're already
    doing, it would also take away your current choice to do
    anything else, no matter what the circumstances.

    That's not how it works. You might get reduced compensation
    because of contributory negligence but that would only
    happen if they could show your lame leg was a consequence of
    a head injury which might not have occurred if you had been
    wearing a helmet. Otherwise almost no accident would count.
    Most cyclists are probably riding illegally anyway because
    they don't have reflectors on their pedals.

    Tony

  5. Simon Brooke said:


    Can you cite anyone who, in the UK, uses a horse for
    ordinary travel?

    I'm not saying I know for a fact there is no-one, but I'll
    admit I'll be surprised if you can cite one.

    Your friend who uses her horse for herding sheep? Presumably
    she rides too and from work ;-)

    Tony

  6. Gonzalez said:

    On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 21:32:01 +0100, "Tony Raven" <junk@raven-

    family.com said:
    Gonzalez said:


    I have two friends who have run Crib Goch. I still
    wouldn't recommend
    it.

    Why? Its not that difficult

    To run it it is.

    Not really. You can run along the easy bits but the
    scrambly bits are just scrambled a bit faster than a
    leisurely walker might go.

    Tony

  7. "Gonzalez" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    message "]news:[email hidden]...
    snip snip snip snip snip

    Quoted message said:


    That still doesn't imply that promotion of helmets
    is wrong.

    Except that what is the point of promoting something of
    extremely doubful value, whilst implying that it will save
    your life? This would appear to lead inevitably to risk
    compensation.

    Most of the people I know who wear helmets do so because of
    the fear of motorised traffic, the situation in which the
    helmet is almost certainly useless. The helmet manufacturers
    very carefully don't claim that it works in that situation,
    but still BHIT make that very claim on their website.

    The massive promotion and attempts at mandation are nothing
    but an irrelevant sideshow, which is draining resources from
    the real work of promoting cycling, and damaging the
    perception of cycling by the general public.

    If the government know of not a single case where a helmet
    saved a life, but there are cases where they have caused
    death, why should they be promoted?

  8. Tony Raven [email hidden] opined the following...

    Quoted message said:

    That's not how it works. You might get reduced
    compensation because of contributory negligence but that
    would only happen if they could show your lame leg was a
    consequence of a head injury which might not have occurred
    if you had been wearing a helmet. Otherwise almost no
    accident would count. Most cyclists are probably riding
    illegally anyway because they don't have reflectors on
    their pedals.

    I thought that the whole reflectors on bike issue was a
    sales one. i.e. The bike shop has to sell you a bike with
    reflectors on the pedals, but you're not obliged to keep
    them there afterwards.

    Jon

  9. Tony Raven said:
    Gonzalez said:

    On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 21:32:01 +0100, "Tony Raven" <junk@raven-

    family.com said:

    Gonzalez wrote:
    >
    > I have two friends who have run Crib Goch. I still
    > wouldn't recommend
    > it.

    Why? Its not that difficult

    To run it it is.

    Not really. You can run along the easy bits but the
    scrambly bits are just scrambled a bit faster than a
    leisurely walker might go.

    Have you tried running it?

  10. On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 00:22:20 +0100, Gonzalez

    Quoted message said:

    I'm not questioning your figures. It's the misleading
    presentation which I raise objection to.

    IN what way is it misleading? I don't think anyone here
    is misled.

    Quoted message said:

    *Five times more child pedestrians are killed than child
    cyclists* implies that being a child pedestrian at any
    given moment is five times more dangerous than being a
    child cyclist.

    No it doesn't, it implies that focusing on bicycle helmets
    is a distraction from the overall problem.

    Right now the state of knowledge is road traffic accounts
    for 10% of child injury admissions but 50% of fatalities. We
    know that cyclists are about 15% of the child road traffic
    fatality figure (and remember pedestrians are in potential
    conflict mainly when crossing roads). We know that around
    10% of that number suffer serious injuries to parts of the
    head covered by a helmet, and assuming the Government's
    figures to be correct (despite lack of real-world evidence
    to back them) we know that at most we can expect around 10%
    of these injuries to be prevented if all child cyclists wear
    helmets. This equates to roughly one life per year, out of
    the hundred or so children killed on the roads, and a few
    tens of serious injuries prevented. And remember that this
    assumes that (a) no injuries will be made worse by helmets,
    which is controversial; (b) no cyclist will ride more
    carelessly as a result of being helmeted, which is
    controversial; (c) helmets are properly worn, which studies
    show is the case in under 5% of cases.

    £400,000 of public money has been given to BeHIT, who have
    come up with claims for a child healt law like "100,000
    child cycling injuries per year", "20,000 tragedies per
    year", "2bn saved annually" and so on. Every one of these
    has been debunked. Meanwhile the cyclist saety agenda is
    continually dominated by the single issue of plastic hats.

    Back in the real world, it is blindingly obvious that more
    serious child injuries will be saved by measures which
    reduce danger at source. It is also obvious that, given that
    a majority of children who die cycling have suffered at
    least one life-threatening non-head injury, helmets have
    limited potential to effect improvement. And the fiction
    that helmets prevent death in crashes with motor cars is
    alive and well and living in Reading, thanks to this
    generously public funded single-issue pressure group.

    As far as I'm concerned, having started from a pro-
    compulsion standpoint for children at least, I am now
    firmly convinced that helmets are a long way down the
    list of things we should be doing to make cycling safer.
    A long way down.

    The BHF has a blanket ban on unhelmetd riders on its charity
    rides. Does it have a blanket ban on riders with defective
    brakes? They will see if you are wearing a plastic hat; will
    they see if your bike is roadworthy? What makes more sense,
    riding a roadworthy bike, or wearing a plastic hat in the
    pious hope that it wil protect you fromt he consequences of
    failure to do so? The emphasis on helmets is completely
    irrational.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    common sense, backed by the best available evidence, tells
    me that the source of danger has four wheels, not two.

    Quoted message said:

    We'll just have to disagree here. I firmly believe that a
    child wearing a helmet is less likely to suffer head injury
    than a child without a helmet.

    Figures from the real world show the opposite. I would like
    to know why. I have asked the Gubmint, but they seem
    curiously uninterested. They would rather pay BeHIT some
    more of my money to produce another paper quoting Thompson,
    Rivara asnd Thompson.

    Quoted message said:

    Children in the Scottish Islands wear life jackets to get
    to school.

    They cross choppy water in a boat. How many children can
    swim in the sea, fully clothed, for long enough to be
    rescued if their boat capsizes?

    Quoted message said:

    Children taken to school on the back of dad's motorcycle
    wear helmets.

    A very small subset of children, obv., since riding pillion
    is illegal below the age of 14. Now look at the fatality
    rate per mile of motorcyclists. I put it to you that it is
    the highest of any road user type, by a country mile.

    Quoted message said:

    Children walking to school wear high visibility jackets.

    To prevent being hit. Children on bikes wear hi-viz jackets,
    too. How many crashes does a helmet prevenet? Er, none. Oh.
    How many crashes would be rpevented by slowing the cars
    down? Ah. Why force questionable protective measures on a
    small subset of victims?

    Quoted message said:

    Many believed there was no proven link between smoking
    and cancer.

    And it was whole-population studies (of the type whih show
    no benefit from increased helemt use) which proved that the
    link existed, against the evidence of small-scale industry
    funded studies which said it didn't. Guess who funded
    Thompson, Rivara and Thompson?

    Quoted message said:

    I suggest you have no credible evidence to support a claim
    that more injuries are caused by poor maintenance than by
    the absence of a helmet.

    I don't need any. All I need to do is show, as I have done,
    that no serious attempt has been made to assess the
    relative merits.

    Quoted message said:

    Besides, I hadn't prioritised the risks.

    Apart from by placing helmets alone with an exclamation mark
    and lumping all the other things together at the end in a
    by-the-way stylee.

    Quoted message said:

    What about the relative possible consequences? Absence of a
    puncture repair kit on a trip to the shops is unlikely to
    have impact on the severity of any injury sustained.

    And international evidence shows that neither is absence
    of a helmet.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Right now on the BBC children's website the brother of a
    boy who died riding off the pavement into the path of a
    car on a bike with defective brakes, is pushing helmets. I
    want to know what heartless [censored] told this grieving
    family that if only "they" (the omnipresent "they" who
    should do something about congestion and heart disease)
    had forced their child to wear a helmet, he would be alive
    today. It is a harsh reality, but one which they need to
    face: if the bike had been properly maintained and the boy
    riding legally, that crash would not have happened.
    Instead of campaigning for magic hats which are admitted
    by their makers to ineffective in crashes involviong motor
    vehicles, they should be promoting maintenance and
    roadcraft. They are not. They are admiring the Emperor's
    New Helmet.

    Quoted message said:

    That still doesn't imply that promotion of helmets is
    wrong.

    Here's what happened.

    Some people who had already made up their minds compared two
    entirely different groups of cyclists and concluded that the
    difference in injury rates was solely due to helmet use.
    Their figure of 88% (+12/-28) has since been used by a
    number of campaigners to push for helmet use and compulsion.

    Some countries have approached 100% helmet use. Their
    cyclist injury rates per mile remain the same.

    One country has reached 50% helemt use. Their cyclist injury
    rates have gone up 40%.

    One country has introduced a law just like the one proposed
    here. Their child cyclist injury rate has doubled.

    Each of these countries experienced a reduction in
    cycling while helmets were being aggressively promoted
    and/or mandated.

    Some other countries have virtually no helmet use. They have
    the best cyclist safety records in the world.

    The UK has seen steadily improving cyclist safety as
    cycling levels increase. Helmet use is more or less static.
    The period when cyclist safety dropped most sharply in
    recent times, the late 1980s, coincided with a sharp rise
    in helmet use.

    In London the congestion chanrge has increased cycling and
    massively reduced injury rates. Helmet use has if anything
    dropped slightly.

    TRL state that helemt promotion appears to conicide with a
    reduction in cycling levels. This is hardly surprising since
    all the helmet promotion in the UK is based on scare
    tactics. In order to propose a solution, first they must
    invent a problem. And all the time the overall picture -
    that most fatalities and serious injuries are caused by
    motor traffic, which kills many more pedestrians than
    cyclists - is studiously ignored.

    When helmet compulsionists are asked to account for the
    failure of whole population figures to show benefit from
    increased helemt wearing rates their response is "we think
    people aren't wearing them properly". There is a Dilbert
    cartoon in which the punchline is "does that work?" "We
    think people are doing it wrong."

    I think, based on the above evidence, that in the case of
    serious injuries, helmets are essentially irrelevant (or
    they cause or exacerbate as many injuries as they prevent,
    which amounts to the same thing). I can see absolutely no
    justification for promoting helmets in the figures from
    Australia, New Zealand, USA, Canada, the UK, Netherlands,
    Denmark, Germany or anywhere else. There is simply no robust
    evidence showing any significant effect on serious injuries.

    So helmets are in the same bag as gloves, or knee pads for
    tinies on their first two-wheeler. Nice to have if you
    should happen to fall off, might prevent a nasty bruise or a
    headache, no more than that.

    --
    Guy
    ===
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after
    posting. chapmancentral.co.ukchapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at
    Washington University

  11. On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 22:35:04 GMT, Simon Brooke <[email hidden]>

    wrote in message : said:

    A bicycle never deliberately tries to unseat a rider.

    Except a recumbent, obv. They scare the [censored] out of hosses.
    Oh, you mean the rider of the /bike/? As you were, then.

    --
    Guy
    ===
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after
    posting. chapmancentral.co.ukchapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at
    Washington University

  12. On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 00:47:18 +0100, Gonzalez
    <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    <[email hidden]>:

    Quoted message said:

    Would you treat recreational pedestrians differently from
    commuting pedestrians?

    The Government does. But that is an aside.

    Now give us your reasons why two groups of people engaged in
    human-powered transportation, whose injury severity ratios
    and head injury proportions are comparable, and who are both
    most likely to die or be seriously injured when encountering
    a motor vehicle, should be treated completely differently?

    --
    Guy
    ===
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after
    posting. chapmancentral.co.ukchapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at
    Washington University

  13. On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 00:35:55 +0100, Gonzalez
    <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    <[email hidden]>:

    Quoted message said:

    Would you apply the same logic to the use of a life jacket
    when dingy sailing?

    If you fall off your bike and are rendered unconscious
    (which helmets have little power to prevent) you are
    unlikely to drown. If the boom hits your head and knocks you
    overboard, the same is not true. I also try not to sail on
    the public roads.

    You are clutching at straws. The most valid
    comparison, in as much as there is one, is between
    pedestrians and cyclists.

    --
    Guy
    ===
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after
    posting. chapmancentral.co.ukchapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at
    Washington University

  14. On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 14:18:02 +0100, Gonzalez
    <[email hidden]> wrote:

    snip

    Quoted message said:


    What I have taken issue with are those people, who like me
    are anti compulsion, but:
    a) manipulate statistics

    Who and where? You're the one who's weak on citations.

    Quoted message said:

    b) claim helmets are dangerous

    on this group, I've seen it demonstrated (both anecdotally
    and statistically) rather than claimed.

    Quoted message said:

    c) ask "what about pedestrians?"

    If the aim is reduce injury, why on earth should this
    not be asked?

    Quoted message said:

    d) call helmets special

    If they weren't special but were as commonplace sa socks,
    legislation wouldn't be sought would it?

    snip
    --

    Transport & Urban Planning Blog

    now at notonmywatch.blogs.comnotonmywatch.blogs.com

  15. Reply to Gawnsoft

    Quoted message said:

    I'm sure there must be other utility cyclists who cycle
    for pragmatic reasons rather than the intrinsic joy.

    I *started* commuting by bike for pragmatic reasons: I was
    sick of driving around town looking for a parking space at
    the start of every shift (I tend to go home for lunch/tea),
    and of walking back to the car at shift's end. The intrinsic
    joy was a surprise and a bonus!

    --
    Mark, UK. We hope to hear him swear, we love to hear him
    squeak, We like to see him biting fingers in his horny beak.

  16. Jon Senior said:


    I thought that the whole reflectors on bike issue was a
    sales one. i.e. The bike shop has to sell you a bike with
    reflectors on the pedals, but you're not obliged to keep
    them there afterwards.

    By law (Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations) you are required
    at night to have:

    Front Lamp One is required, showing a white light, marked
    BS6102/3 (or equivalent), positioned centrally or
    offside, up to 1500mm from the ground, aligned towards
    and visible from the front. (Any white lamp acceptable on
    pre Oct 1990 bikes)

    Rear Lamp One is required, to show a red light, marked
    BS3648 or BS6102/3 (or equivalent), positioned centrally or
    offside, between 350mm and 1500mm from the ground, at or
    near the rear, aligned towards and visible from behind.

    Rear Reflector One is required, coloured red, marked
    BS6102/2 (or equivalent), positioned centrally or offside,
    between 350mm and 900mm from the ground, at or near the
    rear, aligned towards and visible from behind.

    Pedal Reflectors Four are required, coloured amber and
    marked BS6102/2 (or equivalent), positioned so that one is
    plainly visible to the front and another to the rear of each
    pedal. (exempt on pre Oct 1985 bikes) . At the point of sale
    other reflectors e.g. wheel reflectors - are required but
    the owner is free to remove those.

    How many of you with clipless pedals are complying
    with the law?

    Tony

  17. Gonzalez said:


    Have you tried running it?

    I've walked it in summer, winter, sunshine and ice. Running
    it does not mean you are running on every single step of the
    way. You run where you can and don't where you can't. That's
    why its a lot more energetic but not a lot more difficult to
    run as to walk.

    Tony

  18. On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 18:12:13 +0100,

    Gonzalez said:
    Andy Leighton said:
    Quoted message said:

    >Riders heads are 8ft off the ground Cyclists
    >....er...aren't

    6 feet.

    How do you work that out?

    I'm 6' 1" tall. When cycling, sitting upright, my head is
    about 6' off the ground.

    Sorry - I thought you were contesting the riders' heads bit.
    A bit of poor comprehension from me. When on a bike my head
    is about 5' 6" from the road - on a horse about 8'.
    Furthermore the ways of falling from a horse (namely
    backwards if it rears) are more likely to result in me
    hitting my head IMO.

    --
    Andy Leighton => [email hidden] "The Lord is my
    shepherd, but we still lost the sheep dog trials"
    - Robert Rankin, _They Came And Ate Us_

  19. in message <[email hidden]>, Gonzalez

    (') said:

    On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 21:25:46 +0100, "Just zis Guy, you

    know? said:

    Common sense tells me to believe the evidence. The
    evidence tells me that there is no known case where
    cyclist safety has improved with increasing helmet use.
    The evidence also tells me that although only 10% of child
    injury admissions are due to motor traffic, these account
    for half of all fatalities. So common sense, backed by the
    best available evidence, tells me that the source of
    danger has four wheels, not two.

    We'll just have to disagree here. I firmly believe that a
    child wearing a helmet is less likely to suffer head
    injury than a child without a helmet.

    Why do you believe that, when the statistical evidence shows
    the opposite? Is it just superstition, or do you have access
    to some data the rest of us don't have?

    Quoted message said:

    Many believed there was no proven link between smoking
    and cancer.

    But their belief was contrary to the available evidence, as
    your belief that helmets save lives is. So that's an
    argument for us and against you.

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke)
    jasmine.org.uk~simon

    ;; All in all you're just another nick in the ball
    -- Think Droid

  20. in message <[email hidden]>, Tony Raven

    (') said:
    Simon Brooke said:


    Can you cite anyone who, in the UK, uses a horse for
    ordinary travel?

    I'm not saying I know for a fact there is no-one, but
    I'll admit I'll be surprised if you can cite one.

    Your friend who uses her horse for herding sheep?
    Presumably she rides too and from work ;-)

    Possibly. She's still an exception.

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke)
    jasmine.org.uk~simon

    ;; 'I think we should trust our president in every
    decision ;; that he makes and we should just
    support that' ;; Britney Spears of George W Bush,
    CNN 04:09:03

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