Help: Needs lighter wheels!

Dave Mayer said:

Please help a concerned cyclist:

"I'm thinking about investing in some lighter wheels if you think I can do
it cost-effectively. I don't want to spend hundreds of dollars for a few
grams of weight savings. I put new tires on both wheels last week and when
the old tires were off the wheels I was not happy with how heavy they both
seemed.

At the moment I'm running a Wolber Super Champion Aspin tubular rim on the
front and a Montreal tubular on the back. Both wheels are 36 spoke and the
spokes on both wheels are ordinary straight gauge variety. I looked into
getting them re-laced with double butted stainless spokes but I can't
justify the cost of having it done."

How much does renting a tank of helium cost? 😉

--
Tom Sherman - Earth (Downstate Illinois, North of Forgottonia)

Dave Mayer said:

Please help a concerned cyclist:

"I'm thinking about investing in some lighter wheels if you think I can do
it cost-effectively. I don't want to spend hundreds of dollars for a few
grams of weight savings. I put new tires on both wheels last week and when
the old tires were off the wheels I was not happy with how heavy they both
seemed.

At the moment I'm running a Wolber Super Champion Aspin tubular rim on the
front and a Montreal tubular on the back. Both wheels are 36 spoke and the
spokes on both wheels are ordinary straight gauge variety. I looked into
getting them re-laced with double butted stainless spokes but I can't
justify the cost of having it done."

How much do they weigh?
How much do you weigh?
What hubs are you using?
What tires are you using?
What are your objectives for saving weight?
How much are you planning on saving?
How much are you planning on spending?

Quoted message said:

daveornee asks:

How much do they weigh?

What weight? The old wheels? Probably about as much as any standard-issue
old-school 36-spoke tubular wheels. Because they are tubulars, they are
already lighter than any clincher wheels ever made or ever will be made.

The rims are 350 grams for the front and 425 for the back. One plan is to
go for 300 gram rims and DT Revolution spokes with alloy nipples.

Correction: The new Campagnolo Hyperion all-carbon clinchers are lighter
than his current wheels, at a cost of around $3000 for the set.

Quoted message said:

How much do you weigh?

This is for a pal. He weights about 160.

Quoted message said:

What hubs are you using?

Campy Record hi-flange. He could save about 50 grams by going to low-flange
hubs.

Quoted message said:

What tires are you using?

Clement Strada tubulars. Probably 300 grams each. Including tubes
obviously. No rim strip required obviously. He could go down to 200-250
gram tubulars, but this gets into big bucks for fragile tires.

Quoted message said:

What are your objectives for saving weight?

Don't know. Didn't ask him. All things being equal, lighter is better.
Faster and easier than working out.

Quoted message said:

How much are you planning on saving?

100-250 grams per wheel.

Quoted message said:

How much are you planning on spending?

Less than $150.

On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 23:41:21 GMT, "Dave Mayer" <[email hidden]>

may have said:

Please help a concerned cyclist:

"I'm thinking about investing in some lighter wheels if you think I can do
it cost-effectively. ... I looked into
getting them re-laced with double butted stainless spokes but I can't
justify the cost of having it done."

If the cost of relacing the wheels is prohibitive, then the cost of
replacing them (other than with used units) will be even worse.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Dave Mayer said:

Please help a concerned cyclist:

"I'm thinking about investing in some lighter wheels if you think I can do
it cost-effectively. I don't want to spend hundreds of dollars for a few
grams of weight savings. I put new tires on both wheels last week and when
the old tires were off the wheels I was not happy with how heavy they both
seemed.

At the moment I'm running a Wolber Super Champion Aspin tubular rim on the
front and a Montreal tubular on the back. Both wheels are 36 spoke and the
spokes on both wheels are ordinary straight gauge variety. I looked into
getting them re-laced with double butted stainless spokes but I can't
justify the cost of having it done."

Those are not overly heavy, given new bike equipment today,
for example.
I'd leave them as they are until you can spring for a second
set of wheels.

New rims and spokes gets close to the cost of complete
wheels, the difference being that for a few dollars more you
can have two useful sets of wheels instead of leaving your
residual value as rims in the garage.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Dave Mayer said:

Please help a concerned cyclist:

"I'm thinking about investing in some lighter wheels if you think I can do
it cost-effectively. I don't want to spend hundreds of dollars for a few
grams of weight savings. I put new tires on both wheels last week and when
the old tires were off the wheels I was not happy with how heavy they both
seemed.

At the moment I'm running a Wolber Super Champion Aspin tubular rim on the
front and a Montreal tubular on the back. Both wheels are 36 spoke and the
spokes on both wheels are ordinary straight gauge variety. I looked into
getting them re-laced with double butted stainless spokes but I can't
justify the cost of having it done."

Even by getting MUCH lighter wheels, in the 1150-1200 gram variety,
which will cost $2200 PLUS, the 450 grams or so you will save, about a
pound in the typical bike and rider 'package' of say 180-200 pounds is a
teeny percentage. It will not make for a substantial difference in your
riding performance.

So by saving a few grams..it will mean even less.

AND before somebody starts talking about 'rotational effect', where the
weight is on the wheel. For accelerations to such low speeds, the
difference is almost not measurable.

4 things make you a better cyclist,
-fit-proper bike fit
-fat-lack thereof on you
-fitness-being cycling fit
-finesse-riding and racing smart

Qui Si Parla Campagnolo said:

Dave Mayer said:

Please help a concerned cyclist:

"I'm thinking about investing in some lighter wheels if you think I

can do

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it cost-effectively. I don't want to spend hundreds of dollars for

a few

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

grams of weight savings. I put new tires on both wheels last week

and when

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the old tires were off the wheels I was not happy with how heavy

they both

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

seemed.

At the moment I'm running a Wolber Super Champion Aspin tubular rim

on the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

front and a Montreal tubular on the back. Both wheels are 36 spoke

and the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

spokes on both wheels are ordinary straight gauge variety. I

looked into

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

getting them re-laced with double butted stainless spokes but I

can't

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

justify the cost of having it done."

Even by getting MUCH lighter wheels, in the 1150-1200 gram variety,
which will cost $2200 PLUS, the 450 grams or so you will save, about

a

Quoted message said:

pound in the typical bike and rider 'package' of say 180-200 pounds

is a

Quoted message said:

teeny percentage. It will not make for a substantial difference in

your

Quoted message said:

riding performance.

So by saving a few grams..it will mean even less.

AND before somebody starts talking about 'rotational effect', where

the

Quoted message said:

weight is on the wheel. For accelerations to such low speeds, the
difference is almost not measurable.

4 things make you a better cyclist,
-fit-proper bike fit
-fat-lack thereof on you
-fitness-being cycling fit
-finesse-riding and racing smart

AMEN!

I'm no Tour de France guy... but, look, unless the price of bike gear
has changed drastically -- reducing the weight of your bike costs about
$1000 per pound of weight lost.

My buddies and I refer to our physical shape in terms of the "value" of
our guts. After an injury, I was about 20 lbs above optimum weight.
I'm down to 10 lbs heavy now. The way I see it, I just shaved 10 lbs
off my bike+rider weight. In other words, I earned $10,000. Which
justified buying a $400 set of wheels - which I bought for strength,
not weight savings.

There are a lot of great reasons to shell out big bucks on bike gear.
One of them is NOT shaving off a pound of bike weight. The only time
bike weight matters for 99.9% of the cycling population is when a
non-cyclist picks up your bike and says "wow, that sure is a light
bike." Of course, half the time they do that, it is with two full
water bottles in the cages -- so WTF do they know anyhow?

I think that we should, instead of discussing "bike weight," discuss
"loaded weight" Bike PLUS rider = "loaded weight." Then, lets start
talking about how to reduce the loaded weight. Once you have washboard
abs, and you need new Bibs because the old ones are too loose, then you
start looking at reducing your bike's weight.

I'm just going to continue ranting here. I'm on a 75 mile ride this
weekend... and the guy next to me has a gut on him (not much bigger
than my own). He's got a nice, 8-speed bike. He starts talking about
how he wants to upgrade his drivetrain to get 9 or 10 -- "I think it
will be a lot better." He asks "what drivetrain are you running." I
tell him to take a look at it... (punch line here) it is a fixed gear.
"Holy [censored]! how do you do that!???" he asks.... I tell him its not
really that hard (we're in Florida) - and I suggest that his 8 speed
setup looks pretty nice to me.

Quoted message said:

There are a lot of great reasons to shell out big bucks on bike gear.
One of them is NOT shaving off a pound of bike weight. The only time
bike weight matters for 99.9% of the cycling population is when a
non-cyclist picks up your bike and says "wow, that sure is a light
bike." Of course, half the time they do that, it is with two full
water bottles in the cages -- so WTF do they know anyhow?

If you climb up hills, either road or mountain, reducing weight makes a
measureable difference. Increasing static weight for downhills would be a
good goal, too.

Quoted message said:

I think that we should, instead of discussing "bike weight," discuss
"loaded weight" Bike PLUS rider = "loaded weight." Then, lets start
talking about how to reduce the loaded weight. Once you have
washboard abs, and you need new Bibs because the old ones are too
loose, then you start looking at reducing your bike's weight.

Kay I'm there!

Quoted message said:

I'm just going to continue ranting here. I'm on a 75 mile ride this
weekend... and the guy next to me has a gut on him (not much bigger
than my own). He's got a nice, 8-speed bike. He starts talking about
how he wants to upgrade his drivetrain to get 9 or 10 -- "I think it
will be a lot better." He asks "what drivetrain are you running." I
tell him to take a look at it... (punch line here) it is a fixed gear.
"Holy [censored]! how do you do that!???" he asks.... I tell him its not
really that hard (we're in Florida) - and I suggest that his 8 speed
setup looks pretty nice to me.

Was this on a GCC ride?

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Marc said:

Qui Si Parla Campagnolo said:

Dave Mayer said:

Please help a concerned cyclist:

"I'm thinking about investing in some lighter wheels if you think I

can do

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it cost-effectively. I don't want to spend hundreds of dollars for

a few

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

grams of weight savings. I put new tires on both wheels last week

and when

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the old tires were off the wheels I was not happy with how heavy

they both

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

seemed.

At the moment I'm running a Wolber Super Champion Aspin tubular rim

on the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

front and a Montreal tubular on the back. Both wheels are 36 spoke

and the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

spokes on both wheels are ordinary straight gauge variety. I

looked into

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

getting them re-laced with double butted stainless spokes but I

can't

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

justify the cost of having it done."

Even by getting MUCH lighter wheels, in the 1150-1200 gram variety,
which will cost $2200 PLUS, the 450 grams or so you will save, about

a

Quoted message said:

pound in the typical bike and rider 'package' of say 180-200 pounds

is a

Quoted message said:

teeny percentage. It will not make for a substantial difference in

your

Quoted message said:

riding performance.

So by saving a few grams..it will mean even less.

AND before somebody starts talking about 'rotational effect', where

the

Quoted message said:

weight is on the wheel. For accelerations to such low speeds, the
difference is almost not measurable.

4 things make you a better cyclist,
-fit-proper bike fit
-fat-lack thereof on you
-fitness-being cycling fit
-finesse-riding and racing smart

AMEN!

My buddies and I refer to our physical shape in terms of the "value" of
our guts. After an injury, I was about 20 lbs above optimum weight.
I'm down to 10 lbs heavy now. The way I see it, I just shaved 10 lbs
off my bike+rider weight. In other words, I earned $10,000. Which
justified buying a $400 set of wheels - which I bought for strength,
not weight savings.

There are a lot of great reasons to shell out big bucks on bike gear.
One of them is NOT shaving off a pound of bike weight. The only time
bike weight matters for 99.9% of the cycling population is when a
non-cyclist picks up your bike and says "wow, that sure is a light
bike." Of course, half the time they do that, it is with two full
water bottles in the cages -- so WTF do they know anyhow?

I think that we should, instead of discussing "bike weight," discuss
"loaded weight" Bike PLUS rider = "loaded weight." Then, lets start
talking about how to reduce the loaded weight. Once you have washboard
abs, and you need new Bibs because the old ones are too loose, then you
start looking at reducing your bike's weight.

I'm just going to continue ranting here. I'm on a 75 mile ride this
weekend... and the guy next to me has a gut on him (not much bigger
than my own). He's got a nice, 8-speed bike. He starts talking about
how he wants to upgrade his drivetrain to get 9 or 10 -- "I think it
will be a lot better." He asks "what drivetrain are you running." I
tell him to take a look at it... (punch line here) it is a fixed gear.
"Holy [censored]! how do you do that!???" he asks.... I tell him its not
really that hard (we're in Florida) - and I suggest that his 8 speed
setup looks pretty nice to me.

Reality, what a concept. But the 'bike biz', those that design and try
to sell all this 'stuff', won't be happy with your slice of reality.

I just reinstalled Jobst's favorite brakes, Deltas, they are pretty. And
I thought to myself, how much do you really use brakes, when riding
alone anyway? Well, on my 4 hr ride, I used them 5 times...worked pretty
well. I think a pair of Mirage brake calipers would too.

Peter-'can still lose a 'BW' himself'

key-BW=one bike weight, 20 pounds.

Qui Si Parla Campagnolo said:

Marc said:

Qui Si Parla Campagnolo said:

Dave Mayer wrote:

>Please help a concerned cyclist:
>
>"I'm thinking about investing in some lighter wheels if you think

I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

can do

Quoted message said:

>it cost-effectively. I don't want to spend hundreds of dollars

for

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a few

Quoted message said:

>grams of weight savings. I put new tires on both wheels last week

and when

Quoted message said:

>the old tires were off the wheels I was not happy with how heavy

they both

Quoted message said:

>seemed.
>
>At the moment I'm running a Wolber Super Champion Aspin tubular

rim

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

on the

Quoted message said:

>front and a Montreal tubular on the back. Both wheels are 36

spoke

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and the

Quoted message said:

>spokes on both wheels are ordinary straight gauge variety. I

looked into

Quoted message said:

>getting them re-laced with double butted stainless spokes but I

can't

Quoted message said:

>justify the cost of having it done."
>
>
>

Even by getting MUCH lighter wheels, in the 1150-1200 gram variety,
which will cost $2200 PLUS, the 450 grams or so you will save,

about

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a

Quoted message said:

pound in the typical bike and rider 'package' of say 180-200 pounds

is a

Quoted message said:

teeny percentage. It will not make for a substantial difference in

your

Quoted message said:

riding performance.

So by saving a few grams..it will mean even less.

AND before somebody starts talking about 'rotational effect', where

the

Quoted message said:

weight is on the wheel. For accelerations to such low speeds, the
difference is almost not measurable.

4 things make you a better cyclist,
-fit-proper bike fit
-fat-lack thereof on you
-fitness-being cycling fit
-finesse-riding and racing smart

AMEN!

My buddies and I refer to our physical shape in terms of the

"value" of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

our guts. After an injury, I was about 20 lbs above optimum

weight.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm down to 10 lbs heavy now. The way I see it, I just shaved 10

lbs

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

off my bike+rider weight. In other words, I earned $10,000. Which
justified buying a $400 set of wheels - which I bought for

strength,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

not weight savings.

There are a lot of great reasons to shell out big bucks on bike

gear.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

One of them is NOT shaving off a pound of bike weight. The only

time

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

bike weight matters for 99.9% of the cycling population is when a
non-cyclist picks up your bike and says "wow, that sure is a light
bike." Of course, half the time they do that, it is with two full
water bottles in the cages -- so WTF do they know anyhow?

I think that we should, instead of discussing "bike weight,"

discuss

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"loaded weight" Bike PLUS rider = "loaded weight." Then, lets

start

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

talking about how to reduce the loaded weight. Once you have

washboard

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

abs, and you need new Bibs because the old ones are too loose, then

you

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

start looking at reducing your bike's weight.

I'm just going to continue ranting here. I'm on a 75 mile ride

this

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

weekend... and the guy next to me has a gut on him (not much bigger
than my own). He's got a nice, 8-speed bike. He starts talking

about

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

how he wants to upgrade his drivetrain to get 9 or 10 -- "I think

it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

will be a lot better." He asks "what drivetrain are you running."

I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

tell him to take a look at it... (punch line here) it is a fixed

gear.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Holy [censored]! how do you do that!???" he asks.... I tell him its not
really that hard (we're in Florida) - and I suggest that his 8

speed

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

setup looks pretty nice to me.

Reality, what a concept. But the 'bike biz', those that design and

try

Quoted message said:

to sell all this 'stuff', won't be happy with your slice of reality.

I just reinstalled Jobst's favorite brakes, Deltas, they are pretty.

And

Quoted message said:

I thought to myself, how much do you really use brakes, when riding
alone anyway? Well, on my 4 hr ride, I used them 5 times...worked

pretty

Quoted message said:

well. I think a pair of Mirage brake calipers would too.

Peter-'can still lose a 'BW' himself'

key-BW=one bike weight, 20 pounds.

Peter, don't you think the glass is half-full though? I don't own a
Surly, but doesn't the existence (and success) of that company show
that maybe, just maybe, money can be made with the "I don't need that
stuff" crowd? I dunno... just wondering out loud. And... the Bianchi
Pista - stores cant keep them in stock around here! By the way, I
think the coolest bike I've seen in years is your moots fixed-gear.

Quoted message said:

Peter, don't you think the glass is half-full though? I don't own a
Surly, but doesn't the existence (and success) of that company show
that maybe, just maybe, money can be made with the "I don't need that
stuff" crowd? I dunno... just wondering out loud. And... the Bianchi
Pista - stores cant keep them in stock around here! By the way, I
think the coolest bike I've seen in years is your moots fixed-gear.

We do quite well fixing, upgrading, making serviceable, older bicycles.
We sell lots of Mirage, Veloce stuff, We build many wheels using $30
Velocity Aero rims. We try to tell the 'truth' about some of this stuff,
unlike more than a few of our bike shop brethren here in the republic.

We will not look at anybody and say a piece of gear will make a huge
difference. We don't sell it 'just cuz we can'. I think if others would
stop the BS marketing stuff, people would be happier on their bicycles.
As it is, some of these guys 3-4 blocks away make some sort of promise,
the bicycle doesn't deliver, and they get [censored], hang the bike up.

Phil said:

If you climb up hills, either road or mountain, reducing weight makes

a

Quoted message said:

measureable difference.

Measurable, sure -- question is: is it significant?

Marc said:

I'm just going to continue ranting here. I'm on a 75 mile ride this
weekend... and the guy next to me has a gut on him (not much bigger
than my own). He's got a nice, 8-speed bike. He starts talking

about

Quoted message said:

how he wants to upgrade his drivetrain to get 9 or 10 -- "I think it
will be a lot better." He asks "what drivetrain are you running." I
tell him to take a look at it... (punch line here) it is a fixed

gear.

Quoted message said:

"Holy [censored]! how do you do that!???" he asks.... I tell him its not
really that hard (we're in Florida) - and I suggest that his 8 speed
setup looks pretty nice to me.

Yeah, if you do any fixed gear (or single speed) riding, you realize
how little difference having all those gears make. People think it's
heroic, it's not. It really (like so many things) only matters in
racing situations where small differences in efficiency can be
significant. I know a guy who does brevets (200-600km--125/375mi) rides
on a fixer. If your fixer is set up right, then you're riding in the
"right" gear a lot of the time anyway, in which case you're more
efficient than the derailer equipped bike, not to mention lighter. The
real penalty of a fixer comes when descending.

Peter Cole said:

Marc said:

I'm just going to continue ranting here. I'm on a 75 mile ride

this

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

weekend... and the guy next to me has a gut on him (not much bigger
than my own). He's got a nice, 8-speed bike. He starts talking

about

Quoted message said:

how he wants to upgrade his drivetrain to get 9 or 10 -- "I think

it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

will be a lot better." He asks "what drivetrain are you running."

I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

tell him to take a look at it... (punch line here) it is a fixed

gear.

Quoted message said:

"Holy [censored]! how do you do that!???" he asks.... I tell him its not
really that hard (we're in Florida) - and I suggest that his 8

speed

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

setup looks pretty nice to me.

Yeah, if you do any fixed gear (or single speed) riding, you realize
how little difference having all those gears make. People think it's
heroic, it's not. It really (like so many things) only matters in
racing situations where small differences in efficiency can be
significant. I know a guy who does brevets (200-600km--125/375mi)

rides

Quoted message said:

on a fixer. If your fixer is set up right, then you're riding in the
"right" gear a lot of the time anyway, in which case you're more
efficient than the derailer equipped bike, not to mention lighter.

The

Quoted message said:

real penalty of a fixer comes when descending.

Wow! Brevets on a fixed gear... but I think you're SO correct. Small
differences in efficiency are all gears give you. Well, there is
something to be said for coasting down a long grade at the end of a
day, but still, then you need to warm your legs up again. I find long
distances starting to be easier on my fixed gear than on my regular
bike.