HOP Progression

Bill Black said:

I neglected to mention in the thread started by (Ade Merckx) that I have found it best to run the HOP workouts as a progression -- in other words, the PE stays about the same but the watt level increases each month as FTP improves -- for instance, did my first serious HOP workout yesterday since my tendon surgery July, 2008 and January I am genrally looking to do 310W+, Feb. 320W+, and March 330W+.

The HOP serves to pull together a lot of good FTP training but also serves as a very useful barometer as to just where one's fitness is. I learned yesterday that having the fuller use of my right leg (due to tendon repair) is a very good thing but my aerobic power has some catching up to do still.

Best,
Bill Black

Beg your pardon, but what's an HOP workout? 😕

Simone@Italy said:

Beg your pardon, but what's an HOP workout? 😕

Acronym for "Hour of Power" see Coggan/Allen book pp. 85-86 -- (maintain 80% - 95% of Functional Threshold Power and surge every 90sec. or so).
Best,
Bill Black

Bill Black said:

The HOP serves to pull together a lot of good FTP training but also serves as a very useful barometer as to just where one's fitness is.

Thanks for posting this Bill.

Are you saying that you use the HOP to "tune" the FTP training that you've been doing?

Quoted post said:

maintain 80% - 95% of Functional Threshold Power and surge every 90sec. or so

This is SST isn't it? I was under the impression that the HOP was done closer to FTP. In looking at your file posted on the wattage list I see that I'm mistaken. It looks like you're targeting ~90+%.

Dave

dkrenik said:

Thanks for posting this Bill.

Are you saying that you use the HOP to "tune" the FTP training that you've been doing?

This is SST isn't it? I was under the impression that the HOP was done closer to FTP. In looking at your file posted on the wattage list I see that I'm mistaken. It looks like you're targeting ~90+%.

Dave

The HOP I posted to the Wattage archive was 341 avg. and my FTP has been between 360 and 370 (although I am hoping to raise it this year with my leg repaired), so the PE is much higher than simply computing the % of FTP.

In answer to your question about "tuning" FTP -- not really. The HOP is great work for raising FTP but it combines quiate a number of aspects of different types of riding and more closely simulates road racing vs. TT events (due to the surging) -- it requires one to ride steady at a pretty high level and then surge and then return to that same high level and hold things there while trying to recover right on the edge of not being able to do so and then just as one has started to feel a bit collected the next surge is made, etc.

Best,
Bill Black

Bill Black said:

I neglected to mention in the thread started by (Ade Merckx) that I have found it best to run the HOP workouts as a progression -- in other words, the PE stays about the same but the watt level increases each month as FTP improves -- for instance, did my first serious HOP workout yesterday since my tendon surgery July, 2008 and January I am genrally looking to do 310W+, Feb. 320W+, and March 330W+.

The HOP serves to pull together a lot of good FTP training but also serves as a very useful barometer as to just where one's fitness is. I learned yesterday that having the fuller use of my right leg (due to tendon repair) is a very good thing but my aerobic power has some catching up to do still.

Best,
Bill Black

Nice work Bill. Good to see a comeback happening.

What's the NP:AP ratio typically for these workouts?

Alex Simmons said:

Nice work Bill. Good to see a comeback happening.

What's the NP:AP ratio typically for these workouts?

Alex, my comeback is nothing compared to your own. I am in awe of your positive mental outlook -- you truly inspire me.

As to your question, that is a good one and it caused me to look at the WKO+ log from yesterday and NP was 315W same as avg. power for the HOP. I also checked the HOP I posted to the Wattage archives from March 6, 2007 and NP was 341 same as average power.

I supposed the reason NP ends up equalling AP is because I never stopped pedaling and NP adjusts mostly (wholly?) for gaps in pedaling.

However, due to the surging, the PE is much higher than the average power or the NP form a regular steady type of effort.

Stay well Alex and I sincerely meant what I said (above) and I wish you every success.

Best,
Bill Black

Me again Bill 🙂. Do you ever go longer than an hour on the turbo? What other L4 stuff do you do? L5 focus - one or two sessions a week? Thanks

Bill Black said:

I supposed the reason NP ends up equalling AP is because I never stopped pedaling and NP adjusts mostly (wholly?) for gaps in pedaling.

The short surges are leveled by the 30-second averaging in the NP algorithm.

Ade Merckx said:

Me again Bill 🙂. Do you ever go longer than an hour on the turbo? What other L4 stuff do you do? L5 focus - one or two sessions a week? Thanks

A few times I have done 2 x HOP but at a reduced wattage. I did that as part of some block training to prepare for a stage race.

I laid out my general program in the recent HOP thread that you initiated. I am happy to share workouts with you but I need for you to be specific about what you are looking for. I have a very large variety of L4/5 workouts -- I live in Maine and riding the indoor trainer requires creativity to maintain continuity.

Best,
Bill Black

Bill Black said:

A few times I have done 2 x HOP but at a reduced wattage. I did that as part of some block training to prepare for a stage race.

I laid out my general program in the recent HOP thread that you initiated. I am happy to share workouts with you but I need for you to be specific about what you are looking for. I have a very large variety of L4/5 workouts -- I live in Maine and riding the indoor trainer requires creativity to maintain continuity.

Best,
Bill Black

That would be good Bill, always looking for new/more ideas on variety in trainer work for my northern hemisphere clients (and time poor southern cousins).

Alex Simmons said:

That would be good Bill, always looking for new/more ideas on variety in trainer work for my northern hemisphere clients (and time poor southern cousins).

Here are three of L4/5 workouts that I like and find diverting as well as effective:

DRIVE FOR THE LINE
- 10min. warm-up;
- 20min. @85% of FTP;
- 5min. @70% of FTP;
- 5min. @100% of FTP with last 30sec. thereof @140%+ of FTP;
- 5min. @70% of FTP;
- 5min. @100% of FTP with last 30sec. thereof @140%+ of FTP;
- 10min. cool-down.

4.5 THEN DRIVE
- 10min. warm-up;
- 70% of FTP then every 4.5min. go @140% of FTP for 90sec. (so total of 6min.) and that is one rep and you continue that for 10 reps (total of 60min) never letting things go below the 70% of FTP base level;
- 10min. cool-down.

DRIVE FOR 5
- 10min. warm-up;
- 5min. @110% of FTP then 2min. @60% of FTP and that is one rep; do 3 reps per set and 2 sets with 10min. @ L2 between the sets.
- 10min. cool-down.

TERRIBLE 20's
- 10min. warm-up;
- 20min. @90% of FTP with last 2min. thereof being @110% of FTP and that is one rep; do 3 reps with 5min. @ L2 between the reps;
- 10min. cool-down.

I have plenty of others if you are interested -- a number involve motor-pacing on the Computrainer (drafting on and sitting in then...)

Best,
Bill Black

Bill Black said:

Here are three of L4/5 workouts that I like and find diverting as well as effective:

DRIVE FOR THE LINE
- 10min. warm-up;
- 20min. @85% of FTP;
- 5min. @70% of FTP;
- 5min. @100% of FTP with last 30sec. thereof @140%+ of FTP;
- 5min. @70% of FTP;
- 5min. @100% of FTP with last 30sec. thereof @140%+ of FTP;
- 10min. cool-down.

4.5 THEN DRIVE
- 10min. warm-up;
- 70% of FTP then every 4.5min. go @140% of FTP for 90sec. (so total of 6min.) and that is one rep and you continue that for 10 reps (total of 60min) never letting things go below the 70% of FTP base level;
- 10min. cool-down.

DRIVE FOR 5
- 10min. warm-up;
- 5min. @110% of FTP then 2min. @60% of FTP and that is one rep; do 3 reps per set and 2 sets with 10min. @ L2 between the sets.
- 10min. cool-down.

TERRIBLE 20's
- 10min. warm-up;
- 20min. @90% of FTP with last 2min. thereof being @110% of FTP and that is one rep; do 3 reps with 5min. @ L2 between the reps;
- 10min. cool-down.

I have plenty of others if you are interested -- a number involve motor-pacing on the Computrainer (drafting on and sitting in then...)

Best,
Bill Black

Thank you sir.

May I have another?

jsocia said:

Thank you sir.

May I have another?

Here it is:

- 10min warm-up;
- 57min. @75% of FTP and spaced out fairly evenly during that 57min. do 4 x 2min. @110% of FTP;
- 18min. @80% of FTP and spaced out fairly evenly during that 18min. do 4 x 1min. @120% of FTP;
-10min. cool-down.

Best,
Bill Black

jsocia said:

May I have another?

I often do sets of 6-7 minutes at 95-105% with ~1 minute recovery between for 40 minutes, in lieu of the standard 2x20. I'll do them as 7 minutes/7/7/7/6/6 (straight through) or as 7/7/6 - 5 minutes L1/L2 - 7/7/6 to meet "the quota". That's a John Verheul workout, more or less. Even with the recoveries in there, the NP works out to be still in L4. You have to keep the recovery short though.

The "Drive for 5" looks like a standard L5 with limited recovery formula.

Bill Black said:

DRIVE FOR THE LINE
- 10min. warm-up;
- 20min. @85% of FTP;
- 5min. @70% of FTP;
- 5min. @100% of FTP with last 30sec. thereof @140%+ of FTP;
- 5min. @70% of FTP;
- 5min. @100% of FTP with last 30sec. thereof @140%+ of FTP;
- 10min. cool-down.

Bill, What is the IF you get from this?

Bill Black said:

I have plenty of others if you are interested -- a number involve motor-pacing on the Computrainer (drafting on and sitting in then...)

Best,
Bill Black

Those sound cool. I've done a few rides where I just manually adjust the pacer to keep it interesting and in Zone 4 (it'd be great in real life if after I got dropped I could just hold down the - key for 5 seconds to catch up), but I never came up with a specific workout protocol.

One thing I do periodically is draft behind the pacer on a flat .8km course (15 or more laps), and sprint every few laps. Then I save my performance, and do the course again drafting behind myself and doing the same thing. I've never saved a third or fourth time, but eventually you'd have trouble passing your own leadout!

Anyway, that's my attempt at trying to provide an idea or two in the hopes that you'll share your motorpacing workouts 🙂

Steve_B said:

Bill, What is the IF you get from this?

I don't pay all that much attention to intensity factor -- rather I look at improvements in wattage over the longer term (month to month and season to season) -- but I would say that I generally am .92+ or so for an IF.
Best,
Bill Black

These are very cool ideas...I have never tried it this way.

I always do it as a full hour at one wattage...I had never thought of changing it up this way. I like the Drive for the Lone one...will try this weekend.

Bill Black said:

Here are three of L4/5 workouts that I like and find diverting as well as effective:

DRIVE FOR THE LINE
- 10min. warm-up;
- 20min. @85% of FTP;
- 5min. @70% of FTP;
- 5min. @100% of FTP with last 30sec. thereof @140%+ of FTP;
- 5min. @70% of FTP;
- 5min. @100% of FTP with last 30sec. thereof @140%+ of FTP;
- 10min. cool-down.

4.5 THEN DRIVE
- 10min. warm-up;
- 70% of FTP then every 4.5min. go @140% of FTP for 90sec. (so total of 6min.) and that is one rep and you continue that for 10 reps (total of 60min) never letting things go below the 70% of FTP base level;
- 10min. cool-down.

DRIVE FOR 5
- 10min. warm-up;
- 5min. @110% of FTP then 2min. @60% of FTP and that is one rep; do 3 reps per set and 2 sets with 10min. @ L2 between the sets.
- 10min. cool-down.

TERRIBLE 20's
- 10min. warm-up;
- 20min. @90% of FTP with last 2min. thereof being @110% of FTP and that is one rep; do 3 reps with 5min. @ L2 between the reps;
- 10min. cool-down.

I have plenty of others if you are interested -- a number involve motor-pacing on the Computrainer (drafting on and sitting in then...)

Best,
Bill Black

ctgt said:

Those sound cool. I've done a few rides where I just manually adjust the pacer to keep it interesting and in Zone 4 (it'd be great in real life if after I got dropped I could just hold down the - key for 5 seconds to catch up), but I never came up with a specific workout protocol.

One thing I do periodically is draft behind the pacer on a flat .8km course (15 or more laps), and sprint every few laps. Then I save my performance, and do the course again drafting behind myself and doing the same thing. I've never saved a third or fourth time, but eventually you'd have trouble passing your own leadout!

Anyway, that's my attempt at trying to provide an idea or two in the hopes that you'll share your motorpacing workouts 🙂

The motor-pacing workout I do most often is to sit-in on the pacer at a wattage level (for the pacer) where I can just hang on by solid mid-L4 for me and then every 5min. I will surge and pass the pacer and then look to get back on -- a solid 60min+ is a good hard workout and keeps one engaged. Quite a few variations but this one is simple and easily comparable to prior similar sessions (i.e. log the watts of the pacer).

Best,
Bill Black