Hot Foot!

[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

After about 35-40 miles of road cycling, my feet start burning at the
second and third toe and below them where the SPD pedal goes.

I tried moving the clip back as far as it will go, which alleviated the
pain for a few miles.

Someone suggested that my shoe was too tight and is cutting off my
circulation. My feet do go numb in the winter.

Someone else suggested that the sole was too soft: the reason being
that a hard sole will disperse the pressure to the entire foot, instead
of just where the clip attaches.

I wear a Shimano that looks sort of like a mountain bike shoe, and has
a rubber sole that is thick enough to embed the clip so you can walk
normally in them.

Before I go buy a pair of sandals to give me more room, can someone
tell me if I should be looking for a harder sole instead?

You could start by ditching the MTB style pedals, cleats and shoes.
Road style pedals/shoes have a much larger cleat attachment area so all
the pressure isn't in one spot. A harder sole may also be a good idea,
but a very hard sole combined with a thin insert and thin socks can also
give some minor hot foot problems.

Barnard Frederick said:

[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

After about 35-40 miles of road cycling, my feet start burning at the
second and third toe and below them where the SPD pedal goes.

I tried moving the clip back as far as it will go, which alleviated the
pain for a few miles.

Someone suggested that my shoe was too tight and is cutting off my
circulation. My feet do go numb in the winter.

Someone else suggested that the sole was too soft: the reason being
that a hard sole will disperse the pressure to the entire foot, instead
of just where the clip attaches.

I wear a Shimano that looks sort of like a mountain bike shoe, and has
a rubber sole that is thick enough to embed the clip so you can walk
normally in them.

Before I go buy a pair of sandals to give me more room, can someone
tell me if I should be looking for a harder sole instead?

You could start by ditching the MTB style pedals, cleats and shoes.
Road style pedals/shoes have a much larger cleat attachment area so all
the pressure isn't in one spot. A harder sole may also be a good idea,
but a very hard sole combined with a thin insert and thin socks can also
give some minor hot foot problems.

While we're on the subject, I get sore feet but it doesn't seem to be
the "burning" sensation. With stiff shoes (Sidi Genius) and wide pedals
(Look), the balls of my feet feel *bruised* rather than hot on long
rides (e.g. over about 120 miles/200km). I've tried Dr. Scholl's gel
insoles and gotten some relief, but not enough. Any suggestions?

Mark

Barnard Frederick said:

[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

After about 35-40 miles of road cycling, my feet start burning at the
second and third toe and below them where the SPD pedal goes.

I tried moving the clip back as far as it will go, which alleviated the
pain for a few miles.

Someone suggested that my shoe was too tight and is cutting off my
circulation. My feet do go numb in the winter.

Someone else suggested that the sole was too soft: the reason being
that a hard sole will disperse the pressure to the entire foot, instead
of just where the clip attaches.

I wear a Shimano that looks sort of like a mountain bike shoe, and has
a rubber sole that is thick enough to embed the clip so you can walk
normally in them.

Before I go buy a pair of sandals to give me more room, can someone
tell me if I should be looking for a harder sole instead?

You could start by ditching the MTB style pedals, cleats and shoes.

Why?

Quoted message said:

Road style pedals/shoes have a much larger cleat attachment area so all
the pressure isn't in one spot.

Some but not all "road pedals" have a larger cleat/sole interface.

IMO/E the answer lies almost completely in the issue of sole stiffness.
I've been riding SPDs exclusively for 15 years and have never had "hot
spots".

Quoted message said:

A harder sole may also be a good idea,
but a very hard sole combined with a thin insert and thin socks can also
give some minor hot foot problems.

Stiffer shoes. Road pedals and shoes will help, but you can get
incredibly stiff MTB shoes these days. Don't go by what you "think" is
stiff when you hold the shoe and try to bend it. I thought Sidi Genius
shoes were stiff until I chatted woth some knowledgable people. While
not soft, the Sidis are not nearly as stiff as some North Waves or DMTs
out there. Find a few people who race a lot and ask them what they
ride-start there.

Barnard Frederick wrote:
:: [email hidden] says...
::
::: After about 35-40 miles of road cycling, my feet start burning at
::: the second and third toe and below them where the SPD pedal goes.
:::
::: I tried moving the clip back as far as it will go, which alleviated
::: the pain for a few miles.
:::
::: Someone suggested that my shoe was too tight and is cutting off my
::: circulation. My feet do go numb in the winter.
:::
::: Someone else suggested that the sole was too soft: the reason being
::: that a hard sole will disperse the pressure to the entire foot,
::: instead of just where the clip attaches.
:::
::: I wear a Shimano that looks sort of like a mountain bike shoe, and
::: has a rubber sole that is thick enough to embed the clip so you can
::: walk normally in them.
:::
::: Before I go buy a pair of sandals to give me more room, can someone
::: tell me if I should be looking for a harder sole instead?
::
:: You could start by ditching the MTB style pedals, cleats and shoes.
:: Road style pedals/shoes have a much larger cleat attachment area so
:: all the pressure isn't in one spot.

What? Not all road style pedals/shoes have larger cleat area than SPDs.
Many are SPDs.

A harder sole may also be a
:: good idea, but a very hard sole combined with a thin insert and thin
:: socks can also give some minor hot foot problems.

Quoted message said:

After about 35-40 miles of road cycling, my feet start burning at the
second and third toe and below them where the SPD pedal goes.

.....

I agree with others that the soles of your shoes are too soft. A road
shoe should have a very rigid sole.

I disagree with the person who said to ditch the SPDs. I have used
SPDs on road bikes for years for rides well in excess of 40 miles in
the hot summer. No hot foot.

A couple of more points is that I prefer a large "toe box", room to
wiggle your toes. I want my shoe to grip my instep and heel. I also
prefer velcro straps instead of laces or ratcheting mechanisms.

Just my experience,
Tom

Mark says...

Quoted message said:

While we're on the subject, I get sore feet but it doesn't seem to be
the "burning" sensation. With stiff shoes (Sidi Genius) and wide pedals
(Look), the balls of my feet feel *bruised* rather than hot on long
rides (e.g. over about 120 miles/200km). I've tried Dr. Scholl's gel
insoles and gotten some relief, but not enough. Any suggestions?

That's a good explanation. If you ever figure it out, let me know.

[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

After about 35-40 miles of road cycling, my feet start burning at the
second and third toe and below them where the SPD pedal goes.

I tried moving the clip back as far as it will go, which alleviated the
pain for a few miles.

Someone suggested that my shoe was too tight and is cutting off my
circulation. My feet do go numb in the winter.

Someone else suggested that the sole was too soft: the reason being
that a hard sole will disperse the pressure to the entire foot, instead
of just where the clip attaches.

I wear a Shimano that looks sort of like a mountain bike shoe, and has
a rubber sole that is thick enough to embed the clip so you can walk
normally in them.

Before I go buy a pair of sandals to give me more room, can someone
tell me if I should be looking for a harder sole instead?

Ya gotta love Usenet. No matter how obvious and self-evident a
statement you make, four guys will argue about it. The vast majority of
road pedals, Time, Look, Shimano and knock-offs, use a three point cleat
attachment that is much larger than the SPD style attachment. Some
people don't seem to get hot foot, but if you do, the three point road
cleat/shoe would certainly be something worth looking at. What's more,
the larger platform area feels more stable and positive. Can't wait to
see how many people argue about that.

Quoted message said:

After about 35-40 miles of road cycling, my feet start burning at the
second and third toe and below them where the SPD pedal goes.

I tried moving the clip back as far as it will go, which alleviated the
pain for a few miles.

Someone suggested that my shoe was too tight and is cutting off my
circulation. My feet do go numb in the winter.

Someone else suggested that the sole was too soft: the reason being
that a hard sole will disperse the pressure to the entire foot, instead
of just where the clip attaches.

I wear a Shimano that looks sort of like a mountain bike shoe, and has
a rubber sole that is thick enough to embed the clip so you can walk
normally in them.

Before I go buy a pair of sandals to give me more room, can someone
tell me if I should be looking for a harder sole instead?

All good points about the shoes and pedals. I have had this same
problem on my right foot and a bit of re-alignment of my cleat and some
different socks did the trick.

Try a thinner sock with the thinnest (non-existent is better) toe-seam
that you can find. DeFeet has some really good socks and I wear them
almost exclusively, except in the winter. Also, when you put your
shoes on (assuming it's a two or three strap design), keep the one
strap nearest your toes just a 'touch' looser than normal.

HTH.

Greg Wood

Greg said:

Quoted message said:

After about 35-40 miles of road cycling, my feet start burning at the
second and third toe and below them where the SPD pedal goes.

Cycling shoes are notoriously narrow and easily aggravate tender nerves
running between you toes. Once these nerves are squeezed too often they
form scar tissue, a condition known as Morton's Neuroma. It is the foot
equivalent of Carpal Tunnel Syndrome. Morton's presents as a burning
sensation inside your foot between your toes and it's pain can be
reproduced by squeezing your foot at the widest part and then
scrunching the bones together by moving your hand and foot. You'll hear
a "click" sound if you do it properly, but you may not hear it above
the yelp of pain.

Have a podiatrist test you for Morton's. Morton's and cycling are not
compatible (due to the shoes that are so narrow and rigid) and is best
cut out by a surgeon. Conservative treatment, such as the use of
special orthotics is useless in my opinion. As it is, you have no space
in your shoes, nevermind space for bulky orthotics. I've spent many
thousands on orthotics and in the end, surgery was cheaper and
incredibly successful.

The only drawback of the surgery is a numb area, due to the fact that
the entire scarred nerve is removed. It does make coalwalking less
painful though.

Johan Bornman

Quoted message said:

After about 35-40 miles of road cycling, my feet start burning at the
second and third toe and below them where the SPD pedal goes.

I tried moving the clip back as far as it will go, which alleviated the
pain for a few miles.

Someone suggested that my shoe was too tight and is cutting off my
circulation. My feet do go numb in the winter.

Someone else suggested that the sole was too soft: the reason being
that a hard sole will disperse the pressure to the entire foot, instead
of just where the clip attaches.

I wear a Shimano that looks sort of like a mountain bike shoe, and has
a rubber sole that is thick enough to embed the clip so you can walk
normally in them.

Before I go buy a pair of sandals to give me more room, can someone
tell me if I should be looking for a harder sole instead?

Its your pedals. Sandals will not help. They will actually be worse
since the sole on sadals is very flexible. Having too tight of shoes
will cause your toes to go numb. Just like in the olden days of toe
clips. Cinch the straps up and your toes would go numb.

This concept of hot foot only began with the advent of SPD pedals. And
similar small contact pedals such as ATAC, BeBop, Speedplay Frog and
their lollipop models, Egg Beaters, etc. No one ever complained about
hot foot from using Look pedals or Time Equipe pedals. Quite a
conincidence. I would love for the internet bicyclists to explain that
away.

Now there are some internet bicyclists who will claim to have never had
hot foot and use SPD pedals and therefore state it cannot possible have
anything to do with the pedals. Nonsense.

Your possible solutions are to go to road shoes and pedals such as Look
or that Shimano copy or Time RXS. This is guaranteed to work. A stiff
mountain bike shoe may postpone the onset of hot foot with SPD, maybe.
Or stop every 20 miles for a break and walk around. 20 miles is a good
distance for a break for most people using mountain bike shoes and
pedals on road bikes.

Johan Bornman said:

Greg said:

Quoted message said:

After about 35-40 miles of road cycling, my feet start burning at the
second and third toe and below them where the SPD pedal goes.

Cycling shoes are notoriously narrow and easily aggravate tender nerves
running between you toes. Once these nerves are squeezed too often they
form scar tissue, a condition known as Morton's Neuroma. It is the foot
equivalent of Carpal Tunnel Syndrome. Morton's presents as a burning
sensation inside your foot between your toes and it's pain can be
reproduced by squeezing your foot at the widest part and then
scrunching the bones together by moving your hand and foot. You'll hear
a "click" sound if you do it properly, but you may not hear it above
the yelp of pain.

Have a podiatrist test you for Morton's. Morton's and cycling are not
compatible (due to the shoes that are so narrow and rigid) and is best
cut out by a surgeon. Conservative treatment, such as the use of
special orthotics is useless in my opinion. As it is, you have no space
in your shoes, nevermind space for bulky orthotics. I've spent many
thousands on orthotics and in the end, surgery was cheaper and
incredibly successful.

The only drawback of the surgery is a numb area, due to the fact that
the entire scarred nerve is removed. It does make coalwalking less
painful though.

Johan Bornman

Cycling shoes are notoriously narrow? I haven't found that to be so.

I wear a US size 10 1/2 A or AA in dress shoes, which generally means I
have only a very few choices, such as Allen-Edmonds, Johnston Murphy,
and other expensive brands.

Cycling shoes are generally made to fit about a D width foot. So
cycling shoes are notoriously wide and therefore loose in my experience.

By the way, I get the "hot foot" problem from time to time, also.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

After about 35-40 miles of road cycling, my feet start burning at the
second and third toe and below them where the SPD pedal goes.

I tried moving the clip back as far as it will go, which alleviated the
pain for a few miles.

Someone suggested that my shoe was too tight and is cutting off my
circulation. My feet do go numb in the winter.

Someone else suggested that the sole was too soft: the reason being
that a hard sole will disperse the pressure to the entire foot, instead
of just where the clip attaches.

I wear a Shimano that looks sort of like a mountain bike shoe, and has
a rubber sole that is thick enough to embed the clip so you can walk
normally in them.

Before I go buy a pair of sandals to give me more room, can someone
tell me if I should be looking for a harder sole instead?

Its your pedals. Sandals will not help. They will actually be worse
since the sole on sadals is very flexible. Having too tight of shoes
will cause your toes to go numb. Just like in the olden days of toe
clips. Cinch the straps up and your toes would go numb.

This concept of hot foot only began with the advent of SPD pedals.

Ahem, hardly true. It may not have been dubbed "hotfoot" back in the
day, but there was plenty of discussion about sole stiffness, etc.,
back in the quill pedal, clip and toestrap days. "Touring" platform
pedals(e.g., Sakae SP-11, Shimano Triathalon), with their greater
contact area were an alleged inprovement in this regard

Quoted message said:

And
similar small contact pedals such as ATAC, BeBop, Speedplay Frog and
their lollipop models, Egg Beaters, etc. No one ever complained about
hot foot from using Look pedals or Time Equipe pedals.

NO one, not EVER??? Or just not that you are aware of?

Quoted message said:

Quite a
conincidence. I would love for the internet bicyclists to explain that
away.

Now there are some internet bicyclists who will claim to have never had
hot foot and use SPD pedals and therefore state it cannot possible have
anything to do with the pedals. Nonsense.

Your possible solutions are to go to road shoes and pedals such as Look
or that Shimano copy or Time RXS. This is guaranteed to work. A stiff
mountain bike shoe may postpone the onset of hot foot with SPD, maybe.
Or stop every 20 miles for a break and walk around. 20 miles is a good
distance for a break for most people using mountain bike shoes and
pedals on road bikes.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Johan Bornman said:

Greg said:

Quoted message said:

After about 35-40 miles of road cycling, my feet start burning at the
second and third toe and below them where the SPD pedal goes.

Cycling shoes are notoriously narrow and easily aggravate tender nerves
running between you toes. Once these nerves are squeezed too often they
form scar tissue, a condition known as Morton's Neuroma. It is the foot
equivalent of Carpal Tunnel Syndrome. Morton's presents as a burning
sensation inside your foot between your toes and it's pain can be
reproduced by squeezing your foot at the widest part and then
scrunching the bones together by moving your hand and foot. You'll hear
a "click" sound if you do it properly, but you may not hear it above
the yelp of pain.

Have a podiatrist test you for Morton's. Morton's and cycling are not
compatible (due to the shoes that are so narrow and rigid) and is best
cut out by a surgeon. Conservative treatment, such as the use of
special orthotics is useless in my opinion. As it is, you have no space
in your shoes, nevermind space for bulky orthotics. I've spent many
thousands on orthotics and in the end, surgery was cheaper and
incredibly successful.

The only drawback of the surgery is a numb area, due to the fact that
the entire scarred nerve is removed. It does make coalwalking less
painful though.

Johan Bornman

Johan,

I have Morton's Neuroma in both feet but have never had a problem on the
bike, only running.

I take it you did go the surgery route with success.

The medical advice I received some years ago is not to have surgery. The
complaint only flares up every now and then (especially long runs of
marathon length or longer) and it is not life threatening. It gives me
something to think about while I run and takes my mind off other
imaginary pain.

I have several pairs of Nike road shoes that are wide enough for my wide
feet.

cheers,
Darryl

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

After about 35-40 miles of road cycling, my feet start burning at the
second and third toe and below them where the SPD pedal goes.

I tried moving the clip back as far as it will go, which alleviated the
pain for a few miles.

Someone suggested that my shoe was too tight and is cutting off my
circulation. My feet do go numb in the winter.

Someone else suggested that the sole was too soft: the reason being
that a hard sole will disperse the pressure to the entire foot, instead
of just where the clip attaches.

I wear a Shimano that looks sort of like a mountain bike shoe, and has
a rubber sole that is thick enough to embed the clip so you can walk
normally in them.

Before I go buy a pair of sandals to give me more room, can someone
tell me if I should be looking for a harder sole instead?

Its your pedals. Sandals will not help. They will actually be worse
since the sole on sadals is very flexible. Having too tight of shoes
will cause your toes to go numb. Just like in the olden days of toe
clips. Cinch the straps up and your toes would go numb.

This concept of hot foot only began with the advent of SPD pedals. And
similar small contact pedals such as ATAC, BeBop, Speedplay Frog and
their lollipop models, Egg Beaters, etc. No one ever complained about
hot foot from using Look pedals or Time Equipe pedals. Quite a
conincidence. I would love for the internet bicyclists to explain that
away.

Now there are some internet bicyclists who will claim to have never had
hot foot and use SPD pedals and therefore state it cannot possible have
anything to do with the pedals. Nonsense.

Your possible solutions are to go to road shoes and pedals such as Look
or that Shimano copy or Time RXS. This is guaranteed to work. A stiff
mountain bike shoe may postpone the onset of hot foot with SPD, maybe.
Or stop every 20 miles for a break and walk around. 20 miles is a good
distance for a break for most people using mountain bike shoes and
pedals on road bikes.

My hotfoot issue occurred and I WAS riding Look Pedals and using Sidi
Genius 3 shoes.

So there goes your assertion that "No one ever complained about hot
foot from Look Pedals or Time Equipe pedals." You might consider
removing the "Look Pedals" portion or even better, the "No one"
portion.

Greg Wood

I also have this problem. I complained about it to a doctor and he had me
get an Orthotist glue a metatarsal pad into the shoe. I haven't had a chance
to try it out yet, but he said that the pad would keep the arch under the
metatarsals from flattening during riding and thus keep the bones from
squeezing the nerves. Total cost= $8, so I hope it works.

One interesting thing, though: I noticed (prior to getting the pad) that
when I spin, I don't have the hotfoot pain. It comes when I am mashing the
pedal a lot.

Pat in TX said:

I also have this problem. I complained about it to a doctor and he had me
get an Orthotist glue a metatarsal pad into the shoe. I haven't had a chance
to try it out yet, but he said that the pad would keep the arch under the
metatarsals from flattening during riding and thus keep the bones from
squeezing the nerves. Total cost= $8, so I hope it works.

One interesting thing, though: I noticed (prior to getting the pad) that
when I spin, I don't have the hotfoot pain. It comes when I am mashing the
pedal a lot.

I've never understood the claimed connection between small cleats and
metatarsal (ball of foot) pain. From what I've seen, the suggested
remedy for this is a pad which makes a bulge under the metatarsals, just
as a small cleat might with too flexible soles.

Peter Cole <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

I've never understood the claimed connection between small cleats
and metatarsal (ball of foot) pain. From what I've seen, the suggested
remedy for this is a pad which makes a bulge under the metatarsals,
just as a small cleat might with too flexible soles.

What you wrote may address the shoe laterally, but not longitudinally. In
that regard, you want a stiff sole and good arch support to distribute the
load over the length of the foot. Those inserts you can buy (e.g.,
Peterson)that mold to your feet work for me.

--
Mike DeMicco <[email hidden]>

Mike DeMicco said:

Quoted message said:

I've never understood the claimed connection between small cleats
and metatarsal (ball of foot) pain. From what I've seen, the
suggested remedy for this is a pad which makes a bulge under the
metatarsals, just as a small cleat might with too flexible soles.

Quoted message said:

What you wrote may address the shoe laterally, but not
longitudinally. In that regard, you want a stiff sole and good arch
support to distribute the load over the length of the foot. Those
inserts you can buy (e.g., Peterson) that mold to your feet work for
me.

Maybe the shoes I use don't raise that problem but SPD:

http://tinyurl.com/d8l3d

have a rigid sole from toe to heel that isolate the foot from the
recessed cleat and pedal to such a degree that you cannot feel where
it is. I chose these shoes because I use them to ride to work, walk
around the office, and can enter inns with hardwood floors on my trip
in the Alps without scratching floors. The shoes have no waffle-tread
to pick up cow [censored] and bring it in the house either, a big problem in
wet areas.

So where is the problem?

Jobst Brandt