How does Suntour Spirt Front Derailleur compare to newer Tiagra Front Derailleur?

[ddog]

How does Suntour Spirt Front Derailleur compare to newer Tiagra Front
Derailleur?

Spirt seems like a superior design concept, given one has the extra
cable stop/housing. And front derailleurs seem primitive any way, so
is there significantly different better materials that would make the
newer Tiagra a superior choice over the Spirt? It doesn not look like
many older cast materials, so its hard to visually note material
differences from pictures, like with the rear derailleur differences.


Thanks!!

 

[ddog]

And working with a 53-39t dual DA crank may present constraints size
wise.

Thanks Again

 

[Hank Wirtz]

On Feb 19, 8:30 am, "ddog" <[email protected]> wrote:
> How does Suntour Spirt Front Derailleur compare to newer Tiagra Front
> Derailleur?
>
> Spirt seems like a superior design concept, given one has the extra
> cable stop/housing. And front derailleurs seem primitive any way, so
> is there significantly different better materials that would make the
> newer Tiagra a superior choice over the Spirt? It doesn not look like
> many older cast materials, so its hard to visually note material
> differences from pictures, like with the rear derailleur differences.
>

I'd call the extra housing a weakness - more housing means more
friction. Especially down in that area, where water off the front
wheel showers the Bottom Bracket and one end of the housing, and the
other end of the housing is pointing straight up, so it's prone to
collecting water and rusting.

Nonetheless, the biggest difference you'd notice is that the Spirt is
reverse-action; i.e. Big ring normal. The Tiagra also has a wider cage
to accommodate front indexing. That means more lever throw to make
your shift, but also less trimming

Otherwise, on a double crank, FDs are about as simple as things get.
If you were running a triple, I'd say modern is definitely better,
with ramps on the cage matched to a range of ring sizes to push the
chain off with less overshifting needed.

I had a Spirt on my first 10-speed and I really liked the reverse
action. Pull either lever towards you, get an easier gear. It seems to
make more sense to have it on the front than on the rear (Rapid-rise)
so that it's cable, rather than spring, giving you you lower gears.

 

[ddog]

On Feb 19, 11:55 am, "Hank Wirtz" <[email protected]> wrote:
> I'd call the extra housing a weakness - more housing means more
> friction. Especially down in that area, where water off the front
> wheel showers the Bottom Bracket and one end of the housing, and the
> other end of the housing is pointing straight up, so it's prone to
> collecting water and rusting.
>
> Nonetheless, the biggest difference you'd notice is that the Spirt is
> reverse-action; i.e. Big ring normal. The Tiagra also has a wider cage
> to accommodate front indexing. That means more lever throw to make
> your shift, but also less trimming
>
> Otherwise, on a double crank, FDs are about as simple as things get.
> If you were running a triple, I'd say modern is definitely better,
> with ramps on the cage matched to a range of ring sizes to push the
> chain off with less overshifting needed.
>
> I had a Spirt on my first 10-speed and I really liked the reverse
> action. Pull either lever towards you, get an easier gear. It seems to
> make more sense to have it on the front than on the rear (Rapid-rise)
> so that it's cable, rather than spring, giving you you lower gears.

Hank,

Thanks! I appreciate that valuable information. Just 2 more questions
please.

1. Is there any 53t constraints like I've noticed on later front
derauilleurs to 50t max?
2. Is this the only or latest model of Suntour with cable vs. spring
action from big sprocket?

Since I rarely if ever (now in flatlands) use my granny gear, it also
seems better to have it aligned
to larger sprocket vs the one I never or rarely use.

And I think there are sealed cable ferrules so that may be a solution
for the rain entry in housing - ?


Thanks,
Phil Bailey

 

[Hank Wirtz]

On Feb 19, 9:11 am, "ddog" <[email protected]> wrote:


> 1. Is there any 53t constraints like I've noticed on later front
> derauilleurs to 50t max?

I used mine with a 52/42 double. I can't imagine that 53 would be a
problem.

> 2. Is this the only or latest model of Suntour with cable vs. spring
> action from big sprocket?

There was a Suntour XC (not XC Pro, not XC Comp, not XC9000, just XC)
that was reverse-action, too, designed for triples with a 48-ish big
ring, and it didn't require the housing. Very popular among the
touring crowd.

> Since I rarely if ever (now in flatlands) use my granny gear, it also
> seems better to have it aligned
> to larger sprocket vs the one I never or rarely use.

Braggart.

And the small ring on the double isn't called a Granny. A Granny is
the smallest ring on a triple. On a double, it's just a small ring.

>
> And I think there are sealed cable ferrules so that may be a solution
> for the rain entry in housing - ?

There are now, but there weren't when the derailleur was made thirty
years ago. Nor was there plastic housing liner back then.

 

[ddog]

On Feb 19, 1:27 pm, "Hank Wirtz" <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Feb 19, 9:11 am, "ddog" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > 1. Is there any 53t constraints like I've noticed on later front
> > derauilleurs to 50t max?
>
> I used mine with a 52/42 double. I can't imagine that 53 would be a
> problem.
>
> > 2. Is this the only or latest model of Suntour with cable vs. spring
> > action from big sprocket?
>
> There was a Suntour XC (not XC Pro, not XC Comp, not XC9000, just XC)
> that was reverse-action, too, designed for triples with a 48-ish big
> ring, and it didn't require the housing. Very popular among the
> touring crowd.
>
> > Since I rarely if ever (now in flatlands) use my granny gear, it also
> > seems better to have it aligned
> > to larger sprocket vs the one I never or rarely use.
>
> Braggart.
>
> And the small ring on the double isn't called a Granny. A Granny is
> the smallest ring on a triple. On a double, it's just a small ring.
>
>
>
> > And I think there are sealed cable ferrules so that may be a solution
> > for the rain entry in housing - ?
>
> There are now, but there weren't when the derailleur was made thirty
> years ago. Nor was there plastic housing liner back then.

Fantastic information Hank. And I'm getting full fenders in mail now.
After reading Sheldon's site several times, it helped give me
guidlines to achieve
and fenders was one he stressed to prevent rain damage to drive
components.
So that will help lower housing corrosion problem as well.

And when LBS did change out my front der cable when my plastic Simplex
rotted, the
cable was rusty after 35 years. So now I know why!


Thank You Sir,
Phil Bailey

 

[Matt O'Toole]

On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 14:47:05 -0800, Sheldon Brown wrote:

> That's true on the front, but low-normal rears are actually superior
> in downshift reliability/performance.
>
> The thing with having both shifters operate in the same direction
> (high/low) is a mixed blessing.
>
> Back in the day, with down-tube shifters, the traditional
> configuration made for easier double shifting, since you would move
> both levers in the same direction to do a double shift.

Do you think this is the reason for it? I'm curious -- after all, either
direction works well enough at either end, so the founding fathers of
bikedom could have chosen any configuration. I've ridden old Suntour
bikes and Rapid Rise Shimano gear -- it all works.

Matt O.

 

[Sheldon Brown]

Phil Bailey wrote:

> It looks like you are indicating features should average out about the
> same, giving benefit of the doubt to newer designs.

Back in the day, the Spirt was something of a pain because of its
narrow cage, which required a fair amount of trimming as you shift the
rear.

My good friend John Allen even made a special gadget that connected
the front and rear cables under the down tube, so that his Spirt would
trim automatically as the rear cable moved up and down. I recall
noticing this the first time I met him, when he came into the old
Bicycle Repair Collective in Cambridge, sometime in the early '70s.

The narrow cage was a liability back in the 5-speed era, with wide
chains that had protruding pins. However this becomes a virtue with
modern narrow chains, so it will probably work just fine for you as
long as you keep that bight of cable housing clean and free running.

Sheldon "Spirtualist" Brown
+--------------------------------+
| Atheists do not believe in |
| "I before E except after C." |
+--------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

 

[ddog]

On Feb 21, 11:38 am, "Sheldon Brown" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Phil Bailey wrote:
> > It looks like you are indicating features should average out about the
> > same, giving benefit of the doubt to newer designs.
>
> Back in the day, the Spirt was something of a pain because of its
> narrow cage, which required a fair amount of trimming as you shift the
> rear.
>
> My good friend John Allen even made a special gadget that connected
> the front and rear cables under the down tube, so that his Spirt would
> trim automatically as the rear cable moved up and down. I recall
> noticing this the first time I met him, when he came into the old
> Bicycle Repair Collective in Cambridge, sometime in the early '70s.
>
> The narrow cage was a liability back in the 5-speed era, with wide
> chains that had protruding pins. However this becomes a virtue with
> modern narrow chains, so it will probably work just fine for you as
> long as you keep that bight of cable housing clean and free running.
>
> Sheldon "Spirtualist" Brown
> +--------------------------------+
> | Atheists do not believe in |
> | "I before E except after C." |
> +--------------------------------+
> Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
> Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
> http://harriscyclery.com
> Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwidehttp://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com


Thanks Sheldon. Yeah, I have a SRAM 991 chain, IRD 13-24 5sp
freewheel, and a 2006 Centaur short rd with new 9 speed pulley wheels
in case I ever want to go ergo 8, but looking doubtful. With Suntour
Power shifter on top of aerobar, don't think I'll need ergo8 for a
long time. Its just tough getting housing holders to line up with
shifter cables on a 29mm seat shim fastened on top of Profile Swift
Shift bracket, but think I've got it figured out. Just purchased
standard Suntour dual housing holder bracket, and will put spacer
shims inside housing bracket on each side to match shifter cable
alignment directly behind Power shifter bracket on same 29mm shim. Now
I know why no one else does it. Its my 3rd or 4th alternative for
housing holders directly behind the shifters. Pretty sure its an
important interface that has to be exact and sturdy to work properly.
I was even scouting for a Syntace Aeroshift for parts on ebay, but I'm
not spending $70 new for parts I may not need or may not work as well.
But it looks interesting. However, ALL shifter products do not work
with Suntour Power ratchet shifters since 1mm x 2 steps larger
spindles so nothing lines up: If machine shifter fixture spindle down,
cables will not line up, etc...

I was told I'm getting sealed cable with Spirt, and just got my full
fenders yesterday. I'll probably need fender hardware from Harris to
make them 'good', and may try plastic gallon water container mud flaps
on front if long enough (watching weight with all the doo-dads now).
Waiting to see what other odds and ends will need first though.


I appreciate the information,
Phil Bailey

 

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <[email protected]>,
"Sheldon Brown" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Phil Bailey wrote:
>
> > It looks like you are indicating features should average out about the
> > same, giving benefit of the doubt to newer designs.
>
> Back in the day, the Spirt was something of a pain because of its
> narrow cage, which required a fair amount of trimming as you shift the
> rear.
>
> My good friend John Allen even made a special gadget that connected
> the front and rear cables under the down tube, so that his Spirt would
> trim automatically as the rear cable moved up and down. I recall
> noticing this the first time I met him, when he came into the old
> Bicycle Repair Collective in Cambridge, sometime in the early '70s.

Interesting. A home-brewed version of the Suntour Symmetric!

> The narrow cage was a liability back in the 5-speed era, with wide
> chains that had protruding pins. However this becomes a virtue with
> modern narrow chains

--
Ryan Cousineau [email protected] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

 

[ddog]

On Feb 22, 1:37 am, Ryan Cousineau <[email protected]> wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> "Sheldon Brown" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > My good friend John Allen even made a special gadget that connected
> > the front and rear cables under the down tube, so that his Spirt would
> > trim automatically as the rear cable moved up and down. I recall
> > noticing this the first time I met him, when he came into the old
> > Bicycle Repair Collective in Cambridge, sometime in the early '70s.
>
> Interesting. A home-brewed version of the Suntour Symmetric!
>
> > The narrow cage was a liability back in the 5-speed era, with wide
> > chains that had protruding pins. However this becomes a virtue with
> > modern narrow chains

Ryan,

Sheldon has started a Suntour history on his site, and says the
Symetric only shifted one way down, so eventually got out of tune.
Maybe he will be so kind as to give hints of what was done to
accomplish this, and may have started with a Symetric to begin with.

I really like my Suntour Power ratchets though, and took me parts
from two to get one nice one, with extra parts except for thin shims
and left side casting. But if the Symetric ratcheted and trimmed in
both directions, wow, that would simplify my life greatly. I could
just bolt it on my aerobar and it would be done. But nothing is that
easy unfortunately.

Maybe Sheldon will dedicate a paragraph on that modified shifter
design in his evolving Suntour page Even though it may not be a
problem with a 9 speed chain, the quest for the optimum crank shifter
package is never ending, and Suntour seems to be the best ones to
address many factors not used by others.