How important is the flipturn?

James Goddard wrote in message <[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

There should be a 30 minute time bonus in any no sprint tri to people who do fly for the
entire swim 🙂.

Last year at the Catfish Open Water Swim (something which attracts triathletes and real swimmers) a
guy did the 1.2 open water swim entirely using butterfly! I'm waiting to see if he moves up to the
2.4 mile swim this year....

Bill

"Bill Reese" <abuse@localhost> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

James Goddard wrote in message

<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

There should be a 30 minute time bonus in any no sprint tri to people who

do

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

fly for the entire swim 🙂.

Last year at the Catfish Open Water Swim (something which attracts triathletes and real swimmers)
a guy did the 1.2 open water swim entirely using butterfly! I'm waiting to see if he moves up to
the 2.4 mile swim

this

Quoted message said:

year....

Ok, that might beat the doing a marathon in (leather Elvis suit...bell helmet...name your
vice here).

James

"Jim Gosse" <[email hidden]> wrote in :"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Regarding open turns pushing off with head above water, I do open turns, and I push off about 2
feet below the surface in a streamlined position. I travel further on my pushoff than a lot of
swimmers doing a flipturn.

Jim

Which means you'd be even better if you did flip turns.

Tom

MJuric wrote in :"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

I'm confused as how a flip turn makes you a better swimmer. I would agree that a flip turn
has the potential to make you faster in the pool. But this is not from any factor that has to
do with swimming, simply teh mechanics of a quicker turnaround and push. Few few if any of
the mechanics of the flip turn are used at any time during an actual swimming stroke. To me
saying a flip turn makes you a better swimmer is like saying a golf cart makes you a better
golfer. Just because you can make a quicker turn around doesn't mean you're a better swimmer.
Put you in a pool that is a mile long and what advantage does that flip turn have?

~Matt

I see your point, and I don't think the flip turn make one a better swimmer. However, all great (or
even really good) swimmers do flip turns. This is because to get that good, they spend lots of time
training with real swimmers, and you just can't do an open turn well enough to keep from screwing up
the lane when you're swimming with 4-5 other folks who do flip turns.

It's not the flip that makes the great swimmer, it's that the swimmer had to learn to flip on the
way to being great.

[email hidden] (Witheld) wrote in :"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

I think the real answer is in your interest in IMPROVING. Triathletes will workout in a paceline
with roadies, even though we do not generally get to legally draft in competition.

I think this is the key. It's not that it's of any use in a tri (except one with a pool swim), it's
that it's a required part of becoming proficient in that sport.

Swimming: flip turns, alternate strokes Biking: pace lines, drafting Running: Don't know, I'm a
lousy runner!

In article said:

Triathlon Swimmer said:

I would say a flip turn is really important and it teaches you so much about proper swimming
technique.

First you keep your speed up and you do not get a rest each length. You also get a hypoxic effect
from not getting a breath during the whole turn.

Can you point me to a group of accepted studies that prove hypoxic training has any positive
benefits? Although I agree with your "no rest" theory the lack of oxygen IMO is not a
benefit, possibly a drawback due to an ever increasing CO2 level in the blood. Every try
running and holding your breath? Why any different in the pool?

In fact, I recall reading about how there were no physiologically measurable benefits, although
there might have been some psychological benefits.

--Harold Buck

"I used to rock and roll all night, and party every day. Then it was every other day. . . ."

- Homer J. Simpson

In article <[email hidden]>, "Triathlon Swimmer"

Quoted message said:

With out getting specific I would compare it to swinging a golf club.

What is it with this groupp and the idiotic golf vs. swimming analogies?

Quoted message said:

Anyone can swing one but few can hit a ball straight and 300 yds. When you can do that you have
mastered the sport.

This reminds me of the story of the guy who made a bet with his buddy over a round of golf with
partners. The buddy shows up with an 800-pound gorilla, who lines up his tee shot and drives it
300-yards to within a foot of the cup. The guy says, "Jesus, I dont know where you found this
gorilla, but I concede. Here's your 200 bucks. But let's play out the round for fun." The gorilla
walks over, lines up the put, and drives it 300 yards.

The point: mastering one skill doesn't make you a master. And lacking one doesn't mean you aren't,
although it increases the chances that you aren't.

If someone did strictly open-water swimming and could beat everyone in the world in open-water
swimming--and they didn't give a rip about pool swimming--to you, they haven't mastered the
sport? Whatever.

Quoted message said:

When you can flip turn smoothly and effortlessly you have become a master of the sport of
swimming. If you never flip turn you may become fit and you may become fast but not as fast nor as
fit as if you did.

You are not a master, only a hacker.

See above example.

--Harold Buck

"I used to rock and roll all night, and party every day. Then it was every other day. . . ."

- Homer J. Simpson

In article <[email hidden]>, Tom Henderson

Quoted message said:

"Jim Gosse" <[email hidden]> wrote in :"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Regarding open turns pushing off with head above water, I do open turns, and I push off about 2
feet below the surface in a streamlined position. I travel further on my pushoff than a lot of
swimmers doing a flipturn.

Jim

Which means you'd be even better if you did flip turns.

Better at what? Would it make him a better triathlete? Doubtful. A better pool swimmer? Probably.

--Harold Buck

"I used to rock and roll all night, and party every day. Then it was every other day. . . ."

- Homer J. Simpson

In article <[email hidden]>, "Triathlon Swimmer"

Quoted message said:

Actually when you said this

"Not really. As you already said you spend a great deal of time gliding under water with a flip
turn. With a push off, as you mention you come off on top of the water ready to swim. How does
the former give you more rhythm than the latter?"

I decided not to argue with you. Are you really serious with the above statement? I took you for
the troll.

Um, his point makes sense. Gliding underwater doesn't do anything for the rhythm of your stroke,
since you aren't stroking at all when you do
it.

--Harold Buck

"I used to rock and roll all night, and party every day. Then it was every other day. . . ."

- Homer J. Simpson

In article said:

James Goddard wrote in message <[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

There should be a 30 minute time bonus in any no sprint tri to people who do fly for the entire
swim 🙂.

Last year at the Catfish Open Water Swim (something which attracts triathletes and real swimmers)
a guy did the 1.2 open water swim entirely using butterfly! I'm waiting to see if he moves up to
the 2.4 mile swim this year....

Fitness Swimmer (now defunct) did a story about a guy who did a 5K in Chicago doing fly.

--Harold Buck

"I used to rock and roll all night, and party every day. Then it was every other day. . . ."

- Homer J. Simpson

In article <[email hidden]>, "Triathlon Swimmer"

Quoted message said:

I have not seen a study but I can give you some personal experience.

Oh, boy! Anecdotal evidence! That'll convince me!

Quoted message said:

When I trained years ago hypoxic sets were part of the drills. I used to hate them more than
anything else. The burn of your muscles and your raspy breathing after a set were much worse than
what you would get after a sprint set.

We used to swim half way down the pool under water then come up and sprint the last half. Turn
around and repeat. Be careful not to overdo it. Two lengths is enough at a time. Surface if you
feel faint or cannot make it.

I think all that training got my mind and my body used to the burn and the feeling of being
pushed way into the latic acid zone. In a race I would find the same feeling on the last 15m of a
100 when you are totally going all out. It definetly allowed you to keep going better having done
the drill.

As far as physical benifits. I believe that if you body is exposed to a stress it becomes better
at dealing with it. Lift a heavy weight and your muscles get stronger. Run long distances and your
ability to absorb oxygen and get it to the muscles gets better. I am also convinced if you put
more CO2 in your blood your body gets better at getting rid of it.

Why don't you work towards 100% CO2 and then report back to us?

Yes, the principle of progression applies to training in SOME INSTANCES. But what about this one:

I'll hit you in the arm with a hammer, and wait for you to heal. Then I'll do it again, and so on
(maybe increasing the reps). This is clearly applying a stress to your body, so you're telling me
your body will become better at dealing with it over time. Let me know when you want to get started.

You're extrapolating in a way that is not legitimate without some further data.

Quoted message said:

Who knows for sure but if you are swimming lengths and not getting out of breath what exactly are
you trying to accomplish?

Gee, I don't know, aerobic fitness (as opposed to anaerobic fitness)? Do you try to get out of
breath on a 100-mile ride, or do you try to keep from going anaerobic--until maybe the end--so you
can finish the ride as fast as possible?

--Harold Buck

"I used to rock and roll all night, and party every day. Then it was every other day. . . ."

- Homer J. Simpson

Harold Buck <[email hidden]> wrote in news:no_one_knows-
[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Better at what? Would it make him a better triathlete? Doubtful. A better pool swimmer? Probably.

--Harold Buck

He'd end up being a better swimmer by virtue of who he'd be able to train with. Realistically,
that's not worth a whole lot in triathlon, but being the best you can be in all three disciplines is
supposed to be the goal, isn't it? That involves training with the big boys in the purer forms of
each disciplines, which requires learning skills you won't need in triathlon (flip turns, pace
lines, etc.)

Tom

Harold Buck <[email hidden]> wrote in news:no_one_knows-
[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Why don't you work towards 100% CO2 and then report back to us?

I'm really gonna freak out if he does....

Harold Buck <[email hidden]> wrote in news:no_one_knows-
[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Fitness Swimmer (now defunct) did a story about a guy who did a 5K in Chicago doing fly.

Supposedly if you get the rythm of the stroke down, it can become very natural and you can swim it
at a relaxed pace for hours on end much like some can swim freestyle.

Can't prove it by me...

Tom

May I but in here a sec?

Wow some pretty stupid people post here I see.

Regarding your hammer analogy. Shaolin monks do similar training as do most top level martial arts
practitioners. For example they hit boards with a clenched fist slowly and methodically and over
time build up the ability to break concrete blocks with punches. And untrained had would shatter
under such a blow. Bones cartilage and ligaments all change to deal with the forces of the blows.

Shows even a stupid jackass like you is right (sometimes).

"Harold Buck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Oh, boy! Anecdotal evidence! That'll convince me!

Who cares what you think?

Quoted message said:

Why don't you work towards 100% CO2 and then report back to us?

You must be successful in your work and personal lives. I bet you are a self made millionaire and
have a successful family life with a loving wife and kids. Right?

Quoted message said:

Yes, the principle of progression applies to training in SOME INSTANCES. But what about this one:

I'll hit you in the arm with a hammer, and wait for you to heal. Then I'll do it again, and so on
(maybe increasing the reps). This is clearly applying a stress to your body, so you're telling me
your body will become better at dealing with it over time. Let me know when you want to get
started.

How bout you get to hit me with one blow then I get to hit you back? I would be up for that.

Quoted message said:

Gee, I don't know, aerobic fitness (as opposed to anaerobic fitness)? Do you try to get out of
breath on a 100-mile ride, or do you try to keep from going anaerobic--until maybe the end--so you
can finish the ride as fast as possible?

Do you think aerobic and anaerobic fitness are totally unrelated?

Quoted message said:

--Harold Buck

"I used to rock and roll all night, and party every day. Then it was every other day. . . ."

- Homer J. Simpson

Tom Henderson said:

MJuric wrote in :"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

I'm confused as how a flip turn makes you a better swimmer. I would agree that a flip turn
has the potential to make you faster in the pool. But this is not from any factor that has
to do with swimming, simply teh mechanics of a quicker turnaround and push. Few few if any
of the mechanics of the flip turn are used at any time during an actual swimming stroke. To
me saying a flip turn makes you a better swimmer is like saying a golf cart makes you a
better golfer. Just because you can make a quicker turn around doesn't mean you're a better
swimmer. Put you in a pool that is a mile long and what advantage does that flip turn have?

~Matt

I see your point, and I don't think the flip turn make one a better swimmer. However, all great (or
even really good) swimmers do flip turns. This is because to get that good, they spend lots of time
training with real swimmers, and you just can't do an open turn well enough to keep from screwing
up the lane when you're swimming with 4-5 other folks who do flip turns.

It's not the flip that makes the great swimmer, it's that the swimmer had to learn to flip on the
way to being great.

This I can agree with as although I'm as fast or faster than the folks in the next lane in
masters class, I can't swim in their lane because they always gain a second o more on me
with each flip. In a straight line I can hang with them though. I guess if I want to
graduate I better start practicing my flip turns.

~Matt

You are 100% right.

"Tom Henderson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Harold Buck <[email hidden]> wrote in news:no_one_knows-
[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Better at what? Would it make him a better triathlete? Doubtful. A better pool swimmer?
Probably.

--Harold Buck

He'd end up being a better swimmer by virtue of who he'd be able to train with. Realistically,
that's not worth a whole lot in triathlon, but being the best you can be in all three disciplines
is supposed to be the goal, isn't it? That involves training with the big boys in the purer forms
of each disciplines, which requires learning skills you won't need in triathlon (flip turns, pace
lines, etc.)

Tom

If you want to see the best swimmers in the world look at the olympic games. The ones that win gold
(like Ian Thorpe) are competent at all strokes and train in all. They do flip turns. They do hypoxic
training. They can swim a whole length underwater doing nothing but dolphin kick. They do not
believe stupid statements like you can train up to be the best in the world in just one part of
swimming and then suck at all others (which is basically what you are claiming).

And no open water swimmer has a hope in hell in beating them in any race anywhere.

But keep believing Harold.

"Harold Buck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, "Triathlon Swimmer"

Quoted message said:

With out getting specific I would compare it to swinging a golf club.

What is it with this groupp and the idiotic golf vs. swimming analogies?

Quoted message said:

Anyone can swing one but few can hit a ball straight and 300 yds. When you can

do

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that you have mastered the sport.

This reminds me of the story of the guy who made a bet with his buddy over a round of golf with
partners. The buddy shows up with an 800-pound gorilla, who lines up his tee shot and drives it
300-yards to within a foot of the cup. The guy says, "Jesus, I dont know where you found this
gorilla, but I concede. Here's your 200 bucks. But let's play out the round for fun." The gorilla
walks over, lines up the put, and drives it 300 yards.

The point: mastering one skill doesn't make you a master. And lacking one doesn't mean you aren't,
although it increases the chances that you aren't.

If someone did strictly open-water swimming and could beat everyone in the world in open-water
swimming--and they didn't give a rip about pool swimming--to you, they haven't mastered the sport?
Whatever.

Quoted message said:

When you can flip turn smoothly and effortlessly you have become a

master of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the sport of swimming. If you never flip turn you may become fit and you

may

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

become fast but not as fast nor as fit as if you did.

You are not a master, only a hacker.

See above example.

--Harold Buck

"I used to rock and roll all night, and party every day. Then it was every other day. . . ."

- Homer J. Simpson

Having read about the hypoxic benefits of flip turns in swimming, I thought "Why not apply the theory to riding".

I have attached an ice cream bucket onto my bars, and submerge my face for three seconds every 50 metres when riding. It has only been two weeks, and I have already taken 1:30 of my 40km time trial time.

My efforts in running have been less successful. I tried carrying the bucket on a rope around my neck, but all the jarring kept spilling the water, and the rope has been chaffing as well. I'll let you know when I solve this problem.

Regards,
Harrow.😄

"Harold Buck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'll hit you in the arm with a hammer, and wait for you to heal. Then I'll do it again, and so on
(maybe increasing the reps). This is clearly applying a stress to your body, so you're telling me
your body will become better at dealing with it over time. Let me know when you want to get
started.

Where do I sign up? Active.com?