How important is the flipturn?

"Matt Fifer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

He, on the other hand, a runner, would like to know why it's so important for him to learn proper
flipturn technique if the majority of tri races

take

Quoted message said:

place in open water. "Why should I learn how to do a flipturn if I can

just

Quoted message said:

do an open turn? I don't have to do a flipturn in a lake, or the

ocean..."

Quoted message said:

Someone please help me win this argument...

Why? Your friend is quite right. There is absolutely no reason for him to learn flip turns for open
water Triathlon. The only benefit I can think of is that there is less of a "rest" at the wall which
might improve your endurance some.

James

"James Goddard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Matt Fifer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

He, on the other hand, a runner, would like to know why it's so

important

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

for him to learn proper flipturn technique if the majority of tri races

take

Quoted message said:

place in open water. "Why should I learn how to do a flipturn if I can

just

Quoted message said:

do an open turn? I don't have to do a flipturn in a lake, or the

ocean..."

Quoted message said:

Someone please help me win this argument...

Why? Your friend is quite right. There is absolutely no reason for him

to

Quoted message said:

learn flip turns for open water Triathlon. The only benefit I can think

of

Quoted message said:

is that there is less of a "rest" at the wall which might improve your endurance some.

James

I think he's right too. In a 400mtr pool based swim you might save 15 to 20 seconds doing flip turns
and although that might be desirable to a competitive athlete it's hardly make or break over a whole
triathlon to the average age grouper.

Having said this flip turns are a good habit to get into and it doies improve your breath control.

--
DrClean www.DrClean.co.uk The Best Fabric Cleaning Resource on the Web

I would say a flip turn is really important and it teaches you so much about proper swimming
technique.

First you keep your speed up and you do not get a rest each length. You also get a hypoxic effect
from not getting a breath during the whole turn.

When I did my first open water swim I had extra oxygen in my system as I did not have that deficit
from the flip turn every 25 m. If you stop and do an open turn each length you will need more O2 in
an open water swim as you do not get the rest and the extra breaths each length.

Second you learn all about streamlining when you come off the wall under water. Stretch your arms
out in front of you and kick then start your pull. Pushing off the wall head out of the water is a
joke, and slows you down tons as well.

Third you keep your rhythm and fast long distance swimming is all about rhythm.

And finally I have never met a fast swimmer who could not do a great flip turn. :o) "James Goddard"
<[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Matt Fifer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

He, on the other hand, a runner, would like to know why it's so

important

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

for him to learn proper flipturn technique if the majority of tri races

take

Quoted message said:

place in open water. "Why should I learn how to do a flipturn if I can

just

Quoted message said:

do an open turn? I don't have to do a flipturn in a lake, or the

ocean..."

Quoted message said:

Someone please help me win this argument...

Why? Your friend is quite right. There is absolutely no reason for him

to

Quoted message said:

learn flip turns for open water Triathlon. The only benefit I can think

of

Quoted message said:

is that there is less of a "rest" at the wall which might improve your endurance some.

James

I agree with Jimmy. I can flip turn but don't because I can't stop pushing off the wall when I do
and I would rather work my arms and not get the added benefit of the leg push every 25m's

BW

"James Goddard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Matt Fifer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

He, on the other hand, a runner, would like to know why it's so important for him to learn
proper flipturn technique if the majority of tri races

take

Quoted message said:

place in open water. "Why should I learn how to do a flipturn if I can

just

Quoted message said:

do an open turn? I don't have to do a flipturn in a lake, or the

ocean..."

Quoted message said:

Someone please help me win this argument...

Why? Your friend is quite right. There is absolutely no reason for him to learn flip turns for
open water Triathlon. The only benefit I can think of is that there is less of a "rest" at the
wall which might improve your endurance some.

James

Triathlon Swimmer said:

I would say a flip turn is really important and it teaches you so much about proper swimming
technique.

First you keep your speed up and you do not get a rest each length. You also get a hypoxic effect
from not getting a breath during the whole turn.

Can you point me to a group of accepted studies that prove hypoxic training has any positive
benefits? Although I agree with your "no rest" theory the lack of oxygen IMO is not a
benefit, possibly a drawback due to an ever increasing CO2 level in the blood. Every try
running and holding your breath? Why any different in the pool?

~Matt

Quoted message said:

When I did my first open water swim I had extra oxygen in my system as I did not have that deficit
from the flip turn every 25 m. If you stop and do an open turn each length you will need more O2 in
an open water swim as you do not get the rest and the extra breaths each length.

Second you learn all about streamlining when you come off the wall under water. Stretch your arms
out in front of you and kick then start your pull. Pushing off the wall head out of the water is a
joke, and slows you down tons as well.

Third you keep your rhythm and fast long distance swimming is all about rhythm.

And finally I have never met a fast swimmer who could not do a great flip turn. :o) "James Goddard"
<[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Matt Fifer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

He, on the other hand, a runner, would like to know why it's so

important

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

for him to learn proper flipturn technique if the majority of tri races

take

Quoted message said:

place in open water. "Why should I learn how to do a flipturn if I can

just

Quoted message said:

do an open turn? I don't have to do a flipturn in a lake, or the

ocean..."

Quoted message said:

Someone please help me win this argument...

Why? Your friend is quite right. There is absolutely no reason for him

to

Quoted message said:

learn flip turns for open water Triathlon. The only benefit I can think

of

Quoted message said:

is that there is less of a "rest" at the wall which might improve your endurance some.

James

"Triathlon Swimmer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I would say a flip turn is really important and it teaches you so much

about

Quoted message said:

proper swimming technique.

In what way does a flip turn teach you proper swimming technique?

Quoted message said:

First you keep your speed up and you do not get a rest each length. You

also

Quoted message said:

get a hypoxic effect from not getting a breath during the whole turn.

In what way does holding your breath help you train? And if it does why not just breath on every 4th
or 5th sequence insead of 2nd or 3rd?

Quoted message said:

Second you learn all about streamlining when you come off the wall under water. Stretch your arms
out in front of you and kick then start your

pull.

Quoted message said:

Pushing off the wall head out of the water is a joke, and slows you down tons as well.

How much of a triathlon do you spend under water?

Quoted message said:

Third you keep your rhythm and fast long distance swimming is all about rhythm.

Not really. As you already said you spend a great deal of time gliding under water with a flip turn.
With a push off, as you mention you come off on top of the water ready to swim. How does the former
give you more rhythm than the latter?

--------------060203020501040203090000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I don't agree. I swim with several guys who can go 60 minutes straight up in Ironman and can't flip
turn to save their lives.

TriRod

Triathlon Swimmer said:

I would say a flip turn is really important and it teaches you so much about proper swimming
technique.

First you keep your speed up and you do not get a rest each length. You also get a hypoxic effect
from not getting a breath during the whole turn.

When I did my first open water swim I had extra oxygen in my system as I did not have that deficit
from the flip turn every 25 m. If you stop and do an open turn each length you will need more O2 in
an open water swim as you do not get the rest and the extra breaths each length.

Second you learn all about streamlining when you come off the wall under water. Stretch your arms
out in front of you and kick then start your pull. Pushing off the wall head out of the water is a
joke, and slows you down tons as well.

Third you keep your rhythm and fast long distance swimming is all about rhythm.

And finally I have never met a fast swimmer who could not do a great flip turn. :o) "James Goddard"
<[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Matt Fifer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

He, on the other hand, a runner, would like to know why it's so

important

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

for him to learn proper flipturn technique if the majority of tri races

take

Quoted message said:

place in open water. "Why should I learn how to do a flipturn if I can

just

Quoted message said:

do an open turn? I don't have to do a flipturn in a lake, or the

ocean..."

Quoted message said:

Someone please help me win this argument...

Why? Your friend is quite right. There is absolutely no reason for him

to

Quoted message said:

learn flip turns for open water Triathlon. The only benefit I can think

of

Quoted message said:

is that there is less of a "rest" at the wall which might improve your endurance some.

James

--------------060203020501040203090000 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"> <html> <head> <meta
http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1"> <title></title> </head> <body> I
don't agree. I swim with several guys who can go 60 minutes straight up in Ironman and can't
flip turn to save their lives.<br> <br> TriRod<br> <br> Triathlon Swimmer wrote:<br> <blockquote
type="cite" cite="[email hidden]"> <pre wrap="">I would say a flip
turn is really important and it teaches you so much about proper swimming technique.

First you keep your speed up and you do not get a rest each length. You also get a hypoxic effect
from not getting a breath during the whole turn.

When I did my first open water swim I had extra oxygen in my system as I did not have that deficit
from the flip turn every 25 m. If you stop and do an open turn each length you will need more O2 in
an open water swim as you do not get the rest and the extra breaths each length.

Second you learn all about streamlining when you come off the wall under water. Stretch your arms
out in front of you and kick then start your pull. Pushing off the wall head out of the water is a
joke, and slows you down tons as well.

Third you keep your rhythm and fast long distance swimming is all about rhythm.

And finally I have never met a fast swimmer who could not do a great flip turn. :o) "James Goddard"
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href=""][email hidden]"><[email hidden]></a> wrote in message <a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href=""]news:[email hidden]">news:XAzPa.-
[email hidden]</a>... </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">"Matt
Fifer" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href=""][email hidden]"><[email hidden]></a> wrote in message <a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href=""]news:[email hidden]">news:3f0ec-
[email hidden]</a>... </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">He, on
the other hand, a runner, would like to know why it's so </pre> </blockquote> </blockquote> <pre
wrap=""><!---->important </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">for
him to learn proper flipturn technique if the majority of tri races </pre> </blockquote> <pre
wrap="">take </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">place in open water. "Why should I learn
how to do a flipturn if I can </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap="">just </pre> <blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">do an open turn? I don't have to do a flipturn in a lake, or the </pre> </blockquote>
<pre wrap="">ocean..." </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">Someone please help me win this
argument... </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap="">Why? Your friend is quite right. There is absolutely
no reason for him </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""><!---->to </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre
wrap="">learn flip turns for open water Triathlon. The only benefit I can think </pre> </blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->of </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">is that there is less of a
"rest" at the wall which might improve your endurance some.

James

</pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""><!---->

</pre> </blockquote> <br> </body> </html>

--------------060203020501040203090000--

With out getting specific I would compare it to swinging a golf club. Anyone can swing one but few
can hit a ball straight and 300 yds. When you can do that you have mastered the sport.

When you can flip turn smoothly and effortlessly you have become a master of the sport of
swimming. If you never flip turn you may become fit and you may become fast but not as fast nor as
fit as if you did.

You are not a master, only a hacker.

"James Goddard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Triathlon Swimmer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I would say a flip turn is really important and it teaches you so much

about

Quoted message said:

proper swimming technique.

In what way does a flip turn teach you proper swimming technique?

Quoted message said:

First you keep your speed up and you do not get a rest each length. You

also

Quoted message said:

get a hypoxic effect from not getting a breath during the whole turn.

In what way does holding your breath help you train? And if it does why

not

Quoted message said:

just breath on every 4th or 5th sequence insead of 2nd or 3rd?

Quoted message said:

Second you learn all about streamlining when you come off the wall under water. Stretch your
arms out in front of you and kick then start your

pull.

Quoted message said:

Pushing off the wall head out of the water is a joke, and slows you down tons as well.

How much of a triathlon do you spend under water?

Quoted message said:

Third you keep your rhythm and fast long distance swimming is all about rhythm.

Not really. As you already said you spend a great deal of time gliding under water with a flip
turn. With a push off, as you mention you come

off

Quoted message said:

on top of the water ready to swim. How does the former give you more

rhythm

Quoted message said:

than the latter?

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_002F_01C347B6.E4585500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I know a ton of really really fit guys who I can outswim easily. They do = open turns and I do flip
turns. They have trained for years I just = started 7 months ago.=20

I swam 150 25m lengths in an hour, 4 months into my training. When I = started I could not even do
20 lengths in a row without being totally = exhaused. However I did flip turns and concentrated on
keeping proper = technique even when my lungs were bursting and my heartrate was 160 bpm. = I would
slow down and stretch it out but would keep going and add 2 = lengths a day.

Maybe all this talk about why some people can swim fast and some cannot = comes down to things like
flip turns. A swimmer who can do them well = will train better.

Try them for a month and see. You have nothing to lose and only a great = technique to gain.
<[email hidden]> wrote in message = "]news:[email hidden]... I don't agree. I
swim with several guys who can go 60 minutes = straight up in Ironman and can't flip turn to save
their lives.

TriRod

Triathlon Swimmer wrote:

I would say a flip turn is really important and it teaches you so much = about proper swimming
technique.

First you keep your speed up and you do not get a rest each length. You = also get a hypoxic effect
from not getting a breath during the whole turn.

When I did my first open water swim I had extra oxygen in my system as I = did not have that deficit
from the flip turn every 25 m. If you stop and do = an open turn each length you will need more O2
in an open water swim as you = do not get the rest and the extra breaths each length.

Second you learn all about streamlining when you come off the wall under water. Stretch your arms
out in front of you and kick then start your = pull. Pushing off the wall head out of the water is a
joke, and slows you down tons as well.

Third you keep your rhythm and fast long distance swimming is all about rhythm.

And finally I have never met a fast swimmer who could not do a great = flip turn. :o) "James
Goddard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
=20
"Matt Fifer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
=20
He, on the other hand, a runner, would like to know why it's so
=20
important
=20
for him to learn proper flipturn technique if the majority of tri races
=20
take
=20
place in open water. "Why should I learn how to do a flipturn if I can
=20
just
=20
do an open turn? I don't have to do a flipturn in a lake, or the
=20
ocean..."
=20
Someone please help me win this argument...
=20
Why? Your friend is quite right. There is absolutely no reason for him
=20
to
=20
learn flip turns for open water Triathlon. The only benefit I can think
=20
of
=20
is that there is less of a "rest" at the wall which might improve your endurance some.

James

=20

=20

------=_NextPart_000_002F_01C347B6.E4585500 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD><TITLE></TITLE> <META
http-equiv=3DContent-Type = content=3Dtext/html;charset=3DISO-8859-1> <META content=3D"MSHTML
6.00.2726.2500" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I know a ton of really really fit guys = who I can=20 outswim
easily. They do open turns and I do flip turns. They have = trained for=20 years I just
started 7 months ago. </FONT></DIV>
<DV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DVI><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I swam 150 25m lengths in an = hour, 4 months=20 into my
training. When I started I could not even do 20 lengths in a row = without=20 being totally
exhaused. However I did flip turns and concentrated on = keeping=20 proper technique
even when my lungs were bursting and my heartrate = was 160=20 bpm. I would slow down and
stretch it out but would keep going and add 2 = lengths=20 a day.</FONT></DIV>
<DVII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DVIII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Maybe all this talk about why some = people can swim=20 fast and
some cannot comes down to things like flip turns. = A swimmer who=20 can do them well
will train better.</FONT></DIV>
<DIX><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DX><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Try them for a month and see. You have = nothing to=20 lose and
only a great technique to gain.</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px;
PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DXI><<A = href=3D""][email hidden]">[email hidden]</A>> wrote in=20
message <A=20
=
href=3D""]news:[email hidden]">news:3F0EEF61.1080800@desmodu=
e.com</A>...</DIV>I=20 don't agree. I swim with several guys who can go 60 minutes = straight
up=20 in Ironman and can't flip turn to save their=20 lives.<BR><BR>TriRod<BR><BR>Triathlon
Swimmer wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE [email hidden] =
type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">I would say a flip turn is really important = and it teaches you so
much about proper swimming technique.

First you keep your speed up and you do not get a rest each length. You = also get a hypoxic effect
from not getting a breath during the whole turn.

When I did my first open water swim I had extra oxygen in my system as I = did not have that deficit
from the flip turn every 25 m. If you stop and do = an open turn each length you will need more O2
in an open water swim as you = do not get the rest and the extra breaths each length.

Second you learn all about streamlining when you come off the wall under water. Stretch your arms
out in front of you and kick then start your = pull. Pushing off the wall head out of the water is a
joke, and slows you down tons as well.

Third you keep your rhythm and fast long distance swimming is all about rhythm.

And finally I have never met a fast swimmer who could not do a great = flip turn. :o) "James
Goddard" <A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E =
href=3D""][email hidden]"><[email hidden]&g= t;</A> wrote in message
<A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-freetext =
href=3D""]news:[email hidden]">news:XAzPa.10=
[email hidden]</A>... </PRE> <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">"Matt
Fifer" <A = class=3Dmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E =
href=3D""][email hidden]"><[email hidden]></A> = wrote in message <A
class=3Dmoz-txt-link-freetext =
href=3D""]news:[email hidden]">news:3f0ec36=
[email hidden]</A>... </PRE> <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">He,
on the other hand, a = runner, would like to know why it's so </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE
wrap=3D""><!---->important </PRE> <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"> <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE
wrap=3D"">for him to learn proper = flipturn technique if the majority of tri races
</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D"">take </PRE> <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">place in open
water. = "Why should I learn how to do a flipturn if I can </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D"">just
</PRE> <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">do an open turn? I don't = have to do a flipturn in
a lake, or the </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D"">ocean..." </PRE> <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE
wrap=3D"">Someone please help me = win this argument... </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D"">Why? Your
friend is quite = right. There is absolutely no reason for him </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE
wrap=3D""><!---->to </PRE> <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">learn flip turns for open =
water Triathlon. The only benefit I can think </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->of </PRE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">is that there is less of a = "rest" at the wall which might
improve your endurance some.

James

</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->

</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_002F_01C347B6.E4585500--

I have not seen a study but I can give you some personal experience.

When I trained years ago hypoxic sets were part of the drills. I used to hate them more than
anything else. The burn of your muscles and your raspy breathing after a set were much worse than
what you would get after a sprint set.

We used to swim half way down the pool under water then come up and sprint the last half. Turn
around and repeat. Be careful not to overdo it. Two lengths is enough at a time. Surface if you feel
faint or cannot make it.

I think all that training got my mind and my body used to the burn and the feeling of being pushed
way into the latic acid zone. In a race I would find the same feeling on the last 15m of a 100 when
you are totally going all out. It definetly allowed you to keep going better having done the drill.

As far as physical benifits. I believe that if you body is exposed to a stress it becomes better at
dealing with it. Lift a heavy weight and your muscles get stronger. Run long distances and your
ability to absorb oxygen and get it to the muscles gets better. I am also convinced if you put more
CO2 in your blood your body gets better at getting rid of it.

Who knows for sure but if you are swimming lengths and not getting out of breath what exactly are
you trying to accomplish?

<MJuric> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Triathlon Swimmer said:

I would say a flip turn is really important and it teaches you so much

about

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

proper swimming technique.

First you keep your speed up and you do not get a rest each length. You

also

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

get a hypoxic effect from not getting a breath during the whole turn.

Can you point me to a group of accepted studies that prove hypoxic training has any positive
benefits? Although I agree with your "no rest" theory the lack of oxygen IMO is not a benefit,
possibly a drawback due to an ever increasing CO2 level in the blood. Every try running and
holding your breath? Why any different in the pool?

~Matt

Quoted message said:

When I did my first open water swim I had extra oxygen in my system as I

did

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

not have that deficit from the flip turn every 25 m. If you stop and do

an

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

open turn each length you will need more O2 in an open water swim as you

do

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

not get the rest and the extra breaths each length.

Second you learn all about streamlining when you come off the wall under water. Stretch your arms
out in front of you and kick then start your

pull.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Pushing off the wall head out of the water is a joke, and slows you down tons as well.

Third you keep your rhythm and fast long distance swimming is all about rhythm.

And finally I have never met a fast swimmer who could not do a great flip turn. :o) "James
Goddard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Matt Fifer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
> He, on the other hand, a runner, would like to know why it's so

important

Quoted message said:

> for him to learn proper flipturn technique if the majority of tri

races

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

take
> place in open water. "Why should I learn how to do a flipturn if I

can

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

just
> do an open turn? I don't have to do a flipturn in a lake, or the
ocean..."
>
> Someone please help me win this argument...

Why? Your friend is quite right. There is absolutely no reason for

him

Quoted message said:

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to

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learn flip turns for open water Triathlon. The only benefit I can

think

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of

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is that there is less of a "rest" at the wall which might improve your endurance some.

James

"Triathlon Swimmer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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With out getting specific I would compare it to swinging a golf club.

Anyone

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can swing one but few can hit a ball straight and 300 yds. When you can do that you have mastered
the sport.

Cya Troll.

Triathlon Swimmer said:

I have not seen a study but I can give you some personal experience.

When I trained years ago hypoxic sets were part of the drills. I used to hate them more than
anything else. The burn of your muscles and your raspy breathing after a set were much worse than
what you would get after a sprint set.

We used to swim half way down the pool under water then come up and sprint the last half. Turn
around and repeat. Be careful not to overdo it. Two lengths is enough at a time. Surface if you
feel faint or cannot make it.

I think all that training got my mind and my body used to the burn and the feeling of being pushed
way into the latic acid zone.

My limited knowledge of physiolgy states that lactic acid is produced not by lack of O2 but by the
body burning a differnt fuel and using a different process to get energy. If it was triggered by
lack of oxygen then holding your breath should produce lactic acid. Not positive but I don't believe
this to be true.

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In a race I would find the same feeling on the last 15m of a 100 when you are totally going all
out. It definetly allowed you to keep going better having done the drill.

I don't doubt the effectiveness of the phsychology of such drills just the physiology.

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As far as physical benifits. I believe that if you body is exposed to a stress it becomes better at
dealing with it. Lift a heavy weight and your muscles get stronger. Run long distances and your
ability to absorb oxygen and get it to the muscles gets better. I am also convinced if you put more
CO2 in your blood your body gets better at getting rid of it.

I really don't believe that removal of CO2 is a limiting factor in most endurance sports. In
most cases the limiting factor is the ability of the muscles to uptake oxygen and or convert
fuel to energy.

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Who knows for sure but if you are swimming lengths and not getting out of breath what exactly are
you trying to accomplish?

Getting out of breath via exertion and holding ones breath are two completely different
functions. In the first case the brain is sending signals to the body to "send more O2"
because of build up of various components in teh muscles groups being used. In the second
you are denying those muscles a component that is normally plentifull.

As I said all of the above is based on my "laymens" knowledge of physiology. Hopefully someone here
has more knowledge and specifics than I. And or tell me I full of S@#!

~Matt

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<MJuric> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Triathlon Swimmer said:

I would say a flip turn is really important and it teaches you so much

about

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proper swimming technique.

First you keep your speed up and you do not get a rest each length. You

also

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get a hypoxic effect from not getting a breath during the whole turn.

Can you point me to a group of accepted studies that prove hypoxic training has any positive
benefits? Although I agree with your "no rest" theory the lack of oxygen IMO is not a benefit,
possibly a drawback due to an ever increasing CO2 level in the blood. Every try running and
holding your breath? Why any different in the pool?

~Matt

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When I did my first open water swim I had extra oxygen in my system as I

did

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not have that deficit from the flip turn every 25 m. If you stop and do

an

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open turn each length you will need more O2 in an open water swim as you

do

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not get the rest and the extra breaths each length.

Second you learn all about streamlining when you come off the wall under water. Stretch your
arms out in front of you and kick then start your

pull.

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Pushing off the wall head out of the water is a joke, and slows you down tons as well.

Third you keep your rhythm and fast long distance swimming is all about rhythm.

And finally I have never met a fast swimmer who could not do a great flip turn. :o) "James
Goddard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
> "Matt Fifer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> "]news:[email hidden]...
> > He, on the other hand, a runner, would like to know why it's so
important
> > for him to learn proper flipturn technique if the majority of tri

races

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> take
> > place in open water. "Why should I learn how to do a flipturn if I

can

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> just
> > do an open turn? I don't have to do a flipturn in a lake, or the
> ocean..."
> >
> > Someone please help me win this argument...
>
> Why? Your friend is quite right. There is absolutely no reason for

him

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to
> learn flip turns for open water Triathlon. The only benefit I can

think

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of
> is that there is less of a "rest" at the wall which might improve your endurance some.
>
> James
>
>

Actually when you said this

"Not really. As you already said you spend a great deal of time gliding under water with a flip
turn. With a push off, as you mention you come off on top of the water ready to swim. How does the
former give you more rhythm than the latter?"

I decided not to argue with you. Are you really serious with the above statement? I took you for
the troll.

"James Goddard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Triathlon Swimmer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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With out getting specific I would compare it to swinging a golf club.

Anyone

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can swing one but few can hit a ball straight and 300 yds. When you can

do

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that you have mastered the sport.

Cya Troll.

"Matt Fifer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>... "Why should I learn how to do a flipturn if
I can just

Quoted message said:

do an open turn? I don't have to do a flipturn in a lake, or the ocean..."

Someone please help me win this argument...

Matt Kagoshima, Japan

Instead, let me muddy the water:

1. You get a pause/rest in an open turn that you don't get when you flip. Does that periodic pause
affect your stamina when you switch to open water?

2. A flip turn is deeper than an open turn, so you slipstream further/faster.

3. Someone who open turns actually swims MORE of the length than the flipper. How does that affect
your stamina in open water?

I think the real answer is in your interest in IMPROVING. Triathletes will workout in a paceline
with roadies, even though we do not generally get to legally draft in competition.

However, it is generally accepted that we will improve by keeping company with "specialists". If you
don't hold a tight line with roadies, you won't be welcome very long...

Likewise, if you want to jump into a masters swim workout, you need to learn to flip. Otherwise, you
end up in the "slowpoke lane"; the hard-core swimmers would swallow you on every turn - - especially
if you have more than four in the lane.

If you pool-swim by yourself, nevermind... : )

rsquared

Regarding open turns pushing off with head above water, I do open turns, and I push off about 2 feet
below the surface in a streamlined position. I travel further on my pushoff than a lot of swimmers
doing a flipturn.

Jim

"Triathlon Swimmer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I would say a flip turn is really important and it teaches you so much

about

Quoted message said:

proper swimming technique.

First you keep your speed up and you do not get a rest each length. You

also

Quoted message said:

get a hypoxic effect from not getting a breath during the whole turn.

When I did my first open water swim I had extra oxygen in my system as I

did

Quoted message said:

not have that deficit from the flip turn every 25 m. If you stop and do an open turn each length
you will need more O2 in an open water swim as you

do

Quoted message said:

not get the rest and the extra breaths each length.

Second you learn all about streamlining when you come off the wall under water. Stretch your arms
out in front of you and kick then start your

pull.

Quoted message said:

Pushing off the wall head out of the water is a joke, and slows you down tons as well.

Third you keep your rhythm and fast long distance swimming is all about rhythm.

And finally I have never met a fast swimmer who could not do a great flip turn. :o) "James
Goddard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Matt Fifer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

He, on the other hand, a runner, would like to know why it's so

important

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

for him to learn proper flipturn technique if the majority of tri

races

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

take

Quoted message said:

place in open water. "Why should I learn how to do a flipturn if I

can

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

just

Quoted message said:

do an open turn? I don't have to do a flipturn in a lake, or the

ocean..."

Quoted message said:

Someone please help me win this argument...

Why? Your friend is quite right. There is absolutely no reason for him

to

Quoted message said:

learn flip turns for open water Triathlon. The only benefit I can think

of

Quoted message said:

is that there is less of a "rest" at the wall which might improve your endurance some.

James

To a degree it's like riding a rotating paceline in cycling--something not really used in triathlon
(ITU excepted), but fun and technically challenging to do proficiently. It's just one more tool in
your kit. Now if I only could figure out the butterfly....

"Triathlon Swimmer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

With out getting specific I would compare it to swinging a golf club. Anyone can swing one but few
can hit a ball straight and 300 yds. When you can do that you have mastered the sport.

When you can flip turn smoothly and effortlessly you have become a master of the sport of
swimming. If you never flip turn you may become fit and you may become fast but not as fast nor as
fit as if you did.

You are not a master, only a hacker.

Triathlon Swimmer said:

With out getting specific I would compare it to swinging a golf club. Anyone can swing one but few
can hit a ball straight and 300 yds. When you can do that you have mastered the sport.

When you can flip turn smoothly and effortlessly you have become a master of the sport of
swimming. If you never flip turn you may become fit and you may become fast but not as fast nor as
fit as if you did.

You are not a master, only a hacker.

I'm confused as how a flip turn makes you a better swimmer. I would agree that a flip turn
has the potential to make you faster in the pool. But this is not from any factor that has
to do with swimming, simply teh mechanics of a quicker turnaround and push. Few few if any
of the mechanics of the flip turn are used at any time during an actual swimming stroke. To
me saying a flip turn makes you a better swimmer is like saying a golf cart makes you a
better golfer. Just because you can make a quicker turn around doesn't mean you're a better
swimmer. Put you in a pool that is a mile long and what advantage does that flip turn have?

~Matt

Quoted message said:

"James Goddard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Triathlon Swimmer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I would say a flip turn is really important and it teaches you so much

about

Quoted message said:

proper swimming technique.

In what way does a flip turn teach you proper swimming technique?

Quoted message said:

First you keep your speed up and you do not get a rest each length. You

also

Quoted message said:

get a hypoxic effect from not getting a breath during the whole turn.

In what way does holding your breath help you train? And if it does why

not

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just breath on every 4th or 5th sequence insead of 2nd or 3rd?

Quoted message said:

Second you learn all about streamlining when you come off the wall under water. Stretch your
arms out in front of you and kick then start your

pull.

Quoted message said:

Pushing off the wall head out of the water is a joke, and slows you down tons as well.

How much of a triathlon do you spend under water?

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Third you keep your rhythm and fast long distance swimming is all about rhythm.

Not really. As you already said you spend a great deal of time gliding under water with a flip
turn. With a push off, as you mention you come

off

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on top of the water ready to swim. How does the former give you more

rhythm

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than the latter?

"Roger Wrolstad" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

To a degree it's like riding a rotating paceline in cycling--something not really used in
triathlon (ITU excepted), but fun and technically challenging to do proficiently. It's just one
more tool in your kit. Now if I only could figure out the butterfly....

There should be a 30 minute time bonus in any no sprint tri to people who do fly for the
entire swim 🙂.

"Triathlon Swimmer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

When you can flip turn smoothly and effortlessly you have become a master

of

Quoted message said:

the sport of swimming. If you never flip turn you may become fit and you

may

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become fast but not as fast nor as fit as if you did.

You are not a master, only a hacker.

Can you do a trackstand on your geared bike, "hacker"?

Andy Coggan