Hydration / Energy Intake

Colin Campbell said:

Is there a good Internet or printed source for information about how to
eat and drink properly while riding?

I'm riding more and more, and going somewhat faster, mainly because the
folks I ride with are faster than I. I seem to have problems /
limitations with riding fast on consecutive days, and with long rides
(for me, this is over 120 km or 75 miles).

I'm just getting started trying gels, bars, and energy drinks. It seems
hard to tell whether they're helping. And I'm not sure when to eat or
drink them, other than the old saw "If you wait to drink until you're
thirsty, it's too late."

I've found some useful information here:

http://www.ultracycling.com/nutrition/nutrition.html

And here:

http://www.hammernutrition.com/za/HNT?PAGE=ENDURANCE_LIBRARY

From my own experience, any hard ride longer than about 1.5 hours will
require more than just water. I try to get in 400 calories per hour,
even though this is more than what can be absorbed apparently. Since I
don't ride in hot conditions, I don't need to drink that much, so for
me the calories come from things other than sports drinks. If I tried
to get enough calories from just liquids, I'd bloat. I think it is
important to try to distinguish calorie needs from fluid needs. You'll
end up mixing the two obvioulsy, but it may help to think about how an
what proportion, etc.

For me, a high protein diet is imperative for good day to day
recovery. If I don't eat enough protein, I get sore the next day. If I
eat enough, I don't get sore no matter how hard or long I rode.

I personally can't stand gels. I'm also always irritated by the
littering they seem to cause. I like maltodextrin based sports drinks,
and honey sandiwiches for long rides. Sometimes with some dried or
fresh fruit. If it is a real long ride I try to have some salami or
somthing like that too.

Have fun!

Joseph

Colin Campbell said:

Is there a good Internet or printed source for information about how to
eat and drink properly while riding?

I'm riding more and more, and going somewhat faster, mainly because the
folks I ride with are faster than I. I seem to have problems /
limitations with riding fast on consecutive days, and with long rides
(for me, this is over 120 km or 75 miles).

I'm just getting started trying gels, bars, and energy drinks. It seems
hard to tell whether they're helping. And I'm not sure when to eat or
drink them, other than the old saw "If you wait to drink until you're
thirsty, it's too late."

Recommendations are all over the map. I'm convinced a lot of this is
personal preference.
I haven't done heavy miles in years. When I did, I found the
maltodextrin drinks worked better than bars, because I was trained to
drink regularly and it was easy. They definitely did slow down the
decline in my energy level on long rides. Without them I would
eventually blow up if (as was usually the case) the pace was set by
stronger riders. It also seemed to ease my recovery somewhat (but not
dramatically) from day to day.
There are more supplements around now, but I doubt much has changed.
You don't need a lot of protein or fat--you need carbohydrate to spare
the glycogen in your muscles. After a few hours you're not going to
have any glycogen anyhow, regardless of what you eat, so you're going to
be burning more fat. The only way to make that easier is to do long
miles. What you don't want to do is fall off from burning mostly
carbohydrate to burning mostly fat--that's when you feel like [censored]. And
if you're continually taking in carbohydrate, you'll always be burning
SOME carbohydrate, so you won't feel as crappy.

JMO,
Steve

"Steven Bornfeld" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Recommendations are all over the map. I'm convinced a lot of this is
personal preference.

I'll agree with Steve.

Quoted message said:

I haven't done heavy miles in years. When I did, I found the maltodextrin
drinks worked better than bars, because I was trained to drink regularly
and it was easy.

I've also found that they upset the stomach a whole lot less than other
stuff though I prefer the gels and Hammer best of all.

You shouldn't expect to feel anything - if you do there's something in that
stuff you don't want to be taking (read SUCROSE) - normally you should only
notice that you don't seem to tire as quickly and seem to recover a little
more rapidly.

Tom Kunich said:

"Steven Bornfeld" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Recommendations are all over the map. I'm convinced a lot of this is
personal preference.

I'll agree with Steve.

Quoted message said:

I haven't done heavy miles in years. When I did, I found the
maltodextrin drinks worked better than bars, because I was trained to
drink regularly and it was easy.

I've also found that they upset the stomach a whole lot less than other
stuff though I prefer the gels and Hammer best of all.

I'm really out of touch here--what do the gels generally contain?

Steve

Quoted message said:

You shouldn't expect to feel anything - if you do there's something in
that stuff you don't want to be taking (read SUCROSE) - normally you
should only notice that you don't seem to tire as quickly and seem to
recover a little more rapidly.

Quoted message said:

Is there a good Internet or printed source for information about how to
eat and drink properly while riding?

No one has mentioned electrolytes? I'm finding a fairly dramatic
difference between how my muscles feel when I'm careful about taking an
electrolyte supplement like endurolytes and when I don't: muscle stiffness
and cramping greatly decrease.

rms

On Nov 24, 6:05 am, Steven Bornfeld <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Tom Kunich said:

"Steven Bornfeld" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Recommendations are all over the map. I'm convinced a lot of this is
personal preference.

Quoted message said:

I'll agree with Steve.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I haven't done heavy miles in years. When I did, I found the
maltodextrin drinks worked better than bars, because I was trained to
drink regularly and it was easy.

Quoted message said:

I've also found that they upset the stomach a whole lot less than other
stuff though I prefer the gels and Hammer best of all.

I'm really out of touch here--what do the gels generally contain?

I think most gels are more or less like a bottle of sports drink with
85% of the water removed so it has a honey-like consistency. To get
proper osmality you need to drink anyway, so it has to be washed down
with water.

Joseph

Quoted message said:

I think most gels are more or less like a bottle of sports drink with
85% of the water removed so it has a honey-like consistency. To get
proper osmality you need to drink anyway, so it has to be washed down
with water.

Joseph

So the biggest advantage would be portability of more calories. Still
sounds like personal preference.

Thanks,
Steve

On Nov 24, 10:20 pm, Steven Bornfeld <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I think most gels are more or less like a bottle of sports drink with
85% of the water removed so it has a honey-like consistency. To get
proper osmality you need to drink anyway, so it has to be washed down
with water.

Quoted message said:

Joseph

So the biggest advantage would be portability of more calories. Still
sounds like personal preference.

Yes. And I think some people who have problems with solid foods find
them easier to digest. It's also easier to squeeze down a gel once per
hour than to try to pace yorself with the appropriate amount of sports
drink evenly over an hour. ut as you say, it's a persoal preference
thing.

Joseph

"Steven Bornfeld" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tom Kunich said:

I've also found that they upset the stomach a whole lot less than other
stuff though I prefer the gels and Hammer best of all.

I'm really out of touch here--what do the gels generally contain?

They normally contain some maltodextrin though some put in a dose of sucrose
or fructose along with some caffeine in order to give you a kick so that you
think that the stuff is working. The maltodextrin works best all by itself
with sufficient water.

rms said:

Quoted message said:

Is there a good Internet or printed source for information about how to
eat and drink properly while riding?

No one has mentioned electrolytes? I'm finding a fairly dramatic
difference between how my muscles feel when I'm careful about taking an
electrolyte supplement like endurolytes and when I don't: muscle stiffness
and cramping greatly decrease.

Gels typically are, as Joseph wrote, a sports drink with 85% of the
water gone, thus it is implied that gels provide electrolytes, as well,
but it's worth saying explicitly :-). Gels are appealing to me because
they're light and easy to pack instead of sports drink. It's usually
to find sources of water to refill on a ride, but it's not as easy to
find sport drink. So I carry gels and refill with water as needed,
I find this scales well for rides longer than 1-2 hours.

On rides shorter than 1-2 hours, especially when I don't want to stop
en-route, I will take sport drink instead of water, but that's the
only time I use sport drinks en-route.

For background, I ride in the 16-20MPH average pace, and am comfortably
doing 65 mile rides.

I've been using Powerbar Gels, no caffeine (of course), and usually
pack enough for 2 per hour and an extra or two in case another rider
needs one. Before starting a ride, I eat about 250-350 kcal in carbs
with a relatively low glycemic index - my favorite pre-ride fuel
has been Cream of Wheat (with a little maple syrup, of course), which
also contains some salt.

I usually don't start hitting the Powergels until an hour or so
into the ride; after that, I'll eat 1 gel every 50-60 minutes if this
is the first ride after a couple of days recovery, otherwise I try to
eat 1 gel every 35-45 minutes or so if I've had less than 24 hours of
recovery. Mid-way in a ride, I try to eat something solid in the range
of 250-350 kcals (Clif Bars if nothing else).

Last weekend, I did 62 miles/2800ft on Friday, 44 miles on Saturday,
and 62 miles/2400ft on Sunday. I ate reasonable recovery meals after
each ride, nothing excessive (be sure to get some fat in your recovery
meals; it's the one time I feel good eating pizza ;-)).

Hydration-wise, I try to drink at least 1L/hour when temperatures
are moderate, more when it's hot and sometimes less when it's cooler.

Enjoy -
Dana

On Nov 24, 2:20 pm, Steven Bornfeld <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I think most gels are more or less like a bottle of sports drink with
85% of the water removed so it has a honey-like consistency. To get
proper osmality you need to drink anyway, so it has to be washed down
with water.

So the biggest advantage would be portability of more calories. Still
sounds like personal preference.

A gel is basically carb syrup, sometimes medium/high glycemic
index (gets absorbed more quickly). To put some numbers on this,
a Clif Bar is about 250 calories (Kcal in Europe) and contains
some fraction of protein, fat, and stuff that has the texture of
food. A Clif Shot (gel) is about 100 calories and is brown rice
syrup with flavoring.

Gatorade is 50 calories per 8 ounces, basically sugars and water.
So a gel is calorically about a full bottle of sport drink, but you
can
consume it much more quickly. Many people also find them
easier to digest/hold down during hard efforts; you might take
one along in a two hour race and eat it halfway. Some cut them
with water and dispense from a little squirt bottle.

A useful trick is to tuck a gel packet under the hem of your shorts.
This makes it easy to retrieve without fishing around in your jersey
pocket, and is especially useful in MTB races when you don't get
to ride hands-free very much. Put the wrapper back in your jersey
or shorts rather than littering it - I hate when people do that, on
century rides even!

We had a funny gel experience scoring an MTB race once. A woman
rode by the scorer's table with what looked like a big blood stain
dripping down her leg. People will keep riding in races even when
seriously injured, so we were kind of concerned, but on the next lap
it turned out to be a strawberry gel in her shorts hem that had either
burst or she had put back half eaten.

Ben

On Nov 27, 3:31 pm, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Nov 24, 2:20 pm, Steven Bornfeld <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I think most gels are more or less like a bottle of sports drink with
85% of the water removed so it has a honey-like consistency. To get
proper osmality you need to drink anyway, so it has to be washed down
with water.

Quoted message said:

So the biggest advantage would be portability of more calories. Still
sounds like personal preference.

A gel is basically carb syrup, sometimes medium/high glycemic
index (gets absorbed more quickly). To put some numbers on this,
a Clif Bar is about 250 calories (Kcal in Europe) and contains
some fraction of protein, fat, and stuff that has the texture of
food. A Clif Shot (gel) is about 100 calories and is brown rice
syrup with flavoring.

Gatorade is 50 calories per 8 ounces, basically sugars and water.
So a gel is calorically about a full bottle of sport drink, but you
can
consume it much more quickly. Many people also find them
easier to digest/hold down during hard efforts; you might take
one along in a two hour race and eat it halfway. Some cut them
with water and dispense from a little squirt bottle.

A useful trick is to tuck a gel packet under the hem of your shorts.
This makes it easy to retrieve without fishing around in your jersey
pocket, and is especially useful in MTB races when you don't get
to ride hands-free very much. Put the wrapper back in your jersey
or shorts rather than littering it - I hate when people do that, on
century rides even!

I hate gels. They cause indigestion. Nonetheless, if the race/ride
is long, plain old 5-7% solution won't be enough calories. I found
concentrated drinks to work best without causing stomach upset. Also,
it is good to know the route, so you can intake when high efforts are
not expected. The concentrated fuels are fairly cheap and integrate
into the standard water bottle method. They include the standard
electrolytes. I could pack 500+ calories into a large water bottle on
my non-compact frame with a 150g pump. For a lot of races I would
have one standard solution and one concentrated. This was for 50+
mile races. (I don't know why the quote below says "No added
preservatives or sodium" and then says "Sodium 60mg."

http://thesupplenet.com/ultrafuel33lb.html

..StartQuote
Ultra Fuel by Twinlab is a complete performance drink that can help
extend endurance, speed recovery and enhance performance during
training and competition. Replenishes vital fluids, electrolytes,
vitamins, succinates and lactic acid buffers, as well as provides a
true power lift predominantly in the form of glucose polymers (a
complex carbohydrate) and a small amount of 100% pure crystalline
fructose (no sucrose or high fructose corn syrups are present). One 16-
oz serving of Ultra Fuel supplies 100 grams of high quality
carbohydrates, plus important carbohydrate and energy metabolizers
(including chromium) and 100% of the U.S. RDA of stress B vitamins and
vitamin C. No added preservatives or sodium.

Servings per Container: 14

Each serving contains: Calories 400 Total Carbohydrate 100g Sugars 29g
Vitamin C (from ascorbic acid) 60mg Thiamin (from thiamin mononitrate)
1.5mg Riboflavin 1.7mg Niacin (from niacinamide) 20mg Vitamin B6(from
pyridoxine hydrochloride) 2mg Biotin 300mcg Pantothenic Acid (from d-
calcium pantothenate) 100mg Magnesium (from magnesium succinate) 25mg
Chromium (from chromium chloride) 200mcg Sodium 60mg Potassium 100mg

Ingredients: maltodextrin, fructose, citric acid, silica, beet juice
concentrate, fruit flavor, grape skin extract, cherry extract

..EndQuote

"SLAVE of THE STATE" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I hate gels. They cause indigestion.

Gels are the only thing other than GatorAde Frost that doesn't give me
intense nausea when I'm going hard.

Quoted message said:

On Nov 24, 2:20 pm, Steven Bornfeld <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I think most gels are more or less like a bottle of sports drink with
85% of the water removed so it has a honey-like consistency. To get
proper osmality you need to drink anyway, so it has to be washed down
with water.

So the biggest advantage would be portability of more calories. Still
sounds like personal preference.

A gel is basically carb syrup, sometimes medium/high glycemic
index (gets absorbed more quickly). To put some numbers on this,
a Clif Bar is about 250 calories (Kcal in Europe) and contains
some fraction of protein, fat, and stuff that has the texture of
food. A Clif Shot (gel) is about 100 calories and is brown rice
syrup with flavoring.

Gatorade is 50 calories per 8 ounces, basically sugars and water.
So a gel is calorically about a full bottle of sport drink, but you
can
consume it much more quickly. Many people also find them
easier to digest/hold down during hard efforts; you might take
one along in a two hour race and eat it halfway. Some cut them
with water and dispense from a little squirt bottle.

A useful trick is to tuck a gel packet under the hem of your shorts.
This makes it easy to retrieve without fishing around in your jersey
pocket, and is especially useful in MTB races when you don't get
to ride hands-free very much. Put the wrapper back in your jersey
or shorts rather than littering it - I hate when people do that, on
century rides even!

We had a funny gel experience scoring an MTB race once. A woman
rode by the scorer's table with what looked like a big blood stain
dripping down her leg. People will keep riding in races even when
seriously injured, so we were kind of concerned, but on the next lap
it turned out to be a strawberry gel in her shorts hem that had either
burst or she had put back half eaten.

Ben

Sounds perfect for Halloween.

Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

SLAVE of THE STATE said:

On Nov 27, 3:31 pm, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Nov 24, 2:20 pm, Steven Bornfeld <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] wrote:
> I think most gels are more or less like a bottle of sports drink with
> 85% of the water removed so it has a honey-like consistency. To get
> proper osmality you need to drink anyway, so it has to be washed down
> with water.
So the biggest advantage would be portability of more calories. Still
sounds like personal preference.

A gel is basically carb syrup, sometimes medium/high glycemic
index (gets absorbed more quickly). To put some numbers on this,
a Clif Bar is about 250 calories (Kcal in Europe) and contains
some fraction of protein, fat, and stuff that has the texture of
food. A Clif Shot (gel) is about 100 calories and is brown rice
syrup with flavoring.

Gatorade is 50 calories per 8 ounces, basically sugars and water.
So a gel is calorically about a full bottle of sport drink, but you
can
consume it much more quickly. Many people also find them
easier to digest/hold down during hard efforts; you might take
one along in a two hour race and eat it halfway. Some cut them
with water and dispense from a little squirt bottle.

A useful trick is to tuck a gel packet under the hem of your shorts.
This makes it easy to retrieve without fishing around in your jersey
pocket, and is especially useful in MTB races when you don't get
to ride hands-free very much. Put the wrapper back in your jersey
or shorts rather than littering it - I hate when people do that, on
century rides even!

I hate gels. They cause indigestion. Nonetheless, if the race/ride
is long, plain old 5-7% solution won't be enough calories. I found
concentrated drinks to work best without causing stomach upset. Also,
it is good to know the route, so you can intake when high efforts are
not expected. The concentrated fuels are fairly cheap and integrate
into the standard water bottle method. They include the standard
electrolytes. I could pack 500+ calories into a large water bottle on
my non-compact frame with a 150g pump. For a lot of races I would
have one standard solution and one concentrated. This was for 50+
mile races. (I don't know why the quote below says "No added
preservatives or sodium" and then says "Sodium 60mg."

I think the key word is "added". Sodium occurs naturally in lots of
substances, so they are reporting how much naturally occurring sodium is
in what you are putting down your throat.

Quoted message said:

http://thesupplenet.com/ultrafuel33lb.html

.StartQuote
Ultra Fuel by Twinlab is a complete performance drink that can help
extend endurance, speed recovery and enhance performance during
training and competition. Replenishes vital fluids, electrolytes,
vitamins, succinates and lactic acid buffers, as well as provides a
true power lift predominantly in the form of glucose polymers (a
complex carbohydrate) and a small amount of 100% pure crystalline
fructose (no sucrose or high fructose corn syrups are present). One 16-
oz serving of Ultra Fuel supplies 100 grams of high quality
carbohydrates, plus important carbohydrate and energy metabolizers
(including chromium) and 100% of the U.S. RDA of stress B vitamins and
vitamin C. No added preservatives or sodium.

Servings per Container: 14

Each serving contains: Calories 400 Total Carbohydrate 100g Sugars 29g
Vitamin C (from ascorbic acid) 60mg Thiamin (from thiamin mononitrate)
1.5mg Riboflavin 1.7mg Niacin (from niacinamide) 20mg Vitamin B6(from
pyridoxine hydrochloride) 2mg Biotin 300mcg Pantothenic Acid (from d-
calcium pantothenate) 100mg Magnesium (from magnesium succinate) 25mg
Chromium (from chromium chloride) 200mcg Sodium 60mg Potassium 100mg

Ingredients: maltodextrin, fructose, citric acid, silica, beet juice
concentrate, fruit flavor, grape skin extract, cherry extract

.EndQuote

Quoted message said:

Colin Campbell said:

Is there a good Internet or printed source for information about how to
eat and drink properly while riding?

I'm riding more and more, and going somewhat faster, mainly because the
folks I ride with are faster than I. I seem to have problems /
limitations with riding fast on consecutive days, and with long rides
(for me, this is over 120 km or 75 miles).

I'm just getting started trying gels, bars, and energy drinks. It seems
hard to tell whether they're helping. And I'm not sure when to eat or
drink them, other than the old saw "If you wait to drink until you're
thirsty, it's too late."

I've found some useful information here:

http://www.ultracycling.com/nutrition/nutrition.html

And here:

http://www.hammernutrition.com/za/HNT?PAGE=ENDURANCE_LIBRARY

(snip)

Quoted message said:

Have fun!

Joseph

Joseph,
Thanks for the references. I've been to Ultracycling and printed three
or four articles (and I read them today). They are useful, even though
I don't usually ride all day long, just three or four hours.

I'll check the Hammer site, too.
Colin