In defense of Mr. Vandeman (was: Re: The TRUTH about Mountain Biking)



R

R. Lander

Guest
Mike Vandeman wrote:

> The Impacts of Mountain Biking on Wildlife and People --
> A Review of the Literature
> Michael J. Vandeman, Ph.D.
> July 3, 2004...


At first glance, based on reactions to Mr. Vandeman's posts and the
fact that mountain bikes do less damage than motorcycles, I was
inclined to think he was a zealot. But many of his arguments are
fundamentally sound when you look at the growing volume of riders, and
the growing number of people in the wild, period. Those who go outdoors
just to "tear it up" are becoming more of a nuisance as their total
numbers climb. More on that below.

The Sierra Club acknowledges that mountain biking isn't so
nature-friendly and gives tips to minimize impact. Observations show me
that these tips are ignored by extreme riders (they can't help but do
so).

http://www.rmc.sierraclub.org/pandp/1998-06/mi-bike.htm

Clearly this isn't just lone wolf Vandeman howling at the moon.
Bicycles in a straight line are fairly benign but braking/skidding
definitely carves up more soil than walking ever could, unless hikers
kept "sliding into base." And it IS annoying to share the trail with
people at radically different speeds. The faster ones disrupt the
slower ones by default. It's like meeting freeway traffic in a
residential neighborhood; also similar to cross country skiers vs.
snowmobilers. There needs to be humility on the part of "aggressors" in
all of those situations.

Having said that, I think the real problem with ALL wilderness
recreation is the never-ending growth of our population. How many of
you are aware that there are three million more Americans every year
via immigration and native births? Those people inevitably take up more
space and many travel to remote areas to escape crowds of their own
making! We live in a shallow NIMBY society. Everyone wants a piece of
the action but there's only a finite amount to go around. Some see
what's really happening but others remain defiant about their "rights."


The average working person seems unaware of physical limits. The more
motorized they are, the less they tend to care about nature, but
everyone plays a role because of the numbers glut. People make
arguments for the inclusion of their sport-of-the-month without
studying _cumulative_ pressure on land. Mountain biking is just one
symptom of too many people jockeying for finite space.

I personally prefer hiking to riding because it's harder to get
injured, and it IS more about enjoying nature. There's not enough real
wilderness left to keep sacrificing it for extreme sports (the need for
extreme-everything is also a symptom of overcrowding; people feel
trapped and bored in cities). I agree with the assessment that people
who thrive on speed and "challenge" often have a weaker land ethic.
Many mountain climbers fall into that category, too. They seem more
interested in "the rush" than their increasingly battered surroundings.

The only solution I can offer is something like this:
http://www.npg.org/pop_policy.html

R. Lander
 
R. Lander wrote:
> Mike Vandeman wrote:
>
>
>>The Impacts of Mountain Biking on Wildlife and People --
>>A Review of the Literature
>>Michael J. Vandeman, Ph.D.
>>July 3, 2004...

>
>
> At first glance, based on reactions to Mr. Vandeman's posts and the
> fact that mountain bikes do less damage than motorcycles, I was
> inclined to think he was a zealot.


Here's where you made your
fatal mistake. Any human being
of sound mind who has read >2
of MVs posts has no choice but
to conclude that he is a
zealot incapable of rational
thought. Anyone who does not
see this is clearly also a
zealot or mentally retarded.
Which is it?

>
> The Sierra Club acknowledges that mountain biking isn't so
> nature-friendly and gives tips to minimize impact. Observations show me
> that these tips are ignored by extreme riders (they can't help but do
> so).


Yes, but the science does not.
Why don't you do the research,
and maybe when you come back
I'll give a **** about what
you have to say. Until then go
troll somewhere else, dickweed.

>
> The only solution I can offer is something like this:
> http://www.npg.org/pop_policy.html
>


Again, who cares what you have
to offer?
 
On 13 Jun 2006 00:11:54 -0700, "R. Lander" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Mike Vandeman wrote:
>
>> The Impacts of Mountain Biking on Wildlife and People --
>> A Review of the Literature
>> Michael J. Vandeman, Ph.D.
>> July 3, 2004...

>
>At first glance, based on reactions to Mr. Vandeman's posts and the
>fact that mountain bikes do less damage than motorcycles, I was
>inclined to think he was a zealot. But many of his arguments are
>fundamentally sound when you look at the growing volume of riders, and
>the growing number of people in the wild, period. Those who go outdoors
>just to "tear it up" are becoming more of a nuisance as their total
>numbers climb. More on that below.
>
>The Sierra Club acknowledges that mountain biking isn't so
>nature-friendly and gives tips to minimize impact. Observations show me
>that these tips are ignored by extreme riders (they can't help but do
>so).
>
>http://www.rmc.sierraclub.org/pandp/1998-06/mi-bike.htm
>
>Clearly this isn't just lone wolf Vandeman howling at the moon.
>Bicycles in a straight line are fairly benign


Except that they create V-shaped ruts that make walking (and even
biking) difficult and dangerous. They also kill small animals and
plants and drive other trail users and wildlife out of the parks.

but braking/skidding
>definitely carves up more soil than walking ever could, unless hikers
>kept "sliding into base." And it IS annoying to share the trail with
>people at radically different speeds. The faster ones disrupt the
>slower ones by default. It's like meeting freeway traffic in a
>residential neighborhood; also similar to cross country skiers vs.
>snowmobilers. There needs to be humility on the part of "aggressors" in
>all of those situations.
>
>Having said that, I think the real problem with ALL wilderness
>recreation is the never-ending growth of our population. How many of
>you are aware that there are three million more Americans every year
>via immigration and native births? Those people inevitably take up more
>space and many travel to remote areas to escape crowds of their own
>making! We live in a shallow NIMBY society. Everyone wants a piece of
>the action but there's only a finite amount to go around. Some see
>what's really happening but others remain defiant about their "rights."
>
>
>The average working person seems unaware of physical limits. The more
>motorized they are, the less they tend to care about nature, but
>everyone plays a role because of the numbers glut. People make
>arguments for the inclusion of their sport-of-the-month without
>studying _cumulative_ pressure on land. Mountain biking is just one
>symptom of too many people jockeying for finite space.
>
>I personally prefer hiking to riding because it's harder to get
>injured, and it IS more about enjoying nature. There's not enough real
>wilderness left to keep sacrificing it for extreme sports (the need for
>extreme-everything is also a symptom of overcrowding; people feel
>trapped and bored in cities). I agree with the assessment that people
>who thrive on speed and "challenge" often have a weaker land ethic.
>Many mountain climbers fall into that category, too. They seem more
>interested in "the rush" than their increasingly battered surroundings.


All you have to do to verify that is look at a mountain biking video.
Just Google "mountain biking video".

>The only solution I can offer is something like this:
>http://www.npg.org/pop_policy.html
>
>R. Lander

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
On Tue, 13 Jun 2006 01:06:47 -0700, cc <[email protected]> wrote:

>R. Lander wrote:
>> Mike Vandeman wrote:
>>
>>
>>>The Impacts of Mountain Biking on Wildlife and People --
>>>A Review of the Literature
>>>Michael J. Vandeman, Ph.D.
>>>July 3, 2004...

>>
>>
>> At first glance, based on reactions to Mr. Vandeman's posts and the
>> fact that mountain bikes do less damage than motorcycles, I was
>> inclined to think he was a zealot.

>
>Here's where you made your
>fatal mistake. Any human being
>of sound mind who has read >2
>of MVs posts has no choice but
>to conclude that he is a
>zealot incapable of rational
>thought. Anyone who does not
>see this is clearly also a
>zealot or mentally retarded.
>Which is it?
>
>>
>> The Sierra Club acknowledges that mountain biking isn't so
>> nature-friendly and gives tips to minimize impact. Observations show me
>> that these tips are ignored by extreme riders (they can't help but do
>> so).

>
>Yes, but the science does not.
>Why don't you do the research,
>and maybe when you come back
>I'll give a **** about what
>you have to say. Until then go
>troll somewhere else, dickweed.
>
>>
>> The only solution I can offer is something like this:
>> http://www.npg.org/pop_policy.html
>>

>
>Again, who cares what you have
>to offer?


As you can see, mountain bikers attack ANYONE rash enough to tell the
truth about mountain biking in "their" newsgroup.
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
"R. Lander" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Mike Vandeman wrote:
>
>> The Impacts of Mountain Biking on Wildlife and People --
>> A Review of the Literature
>> Michael J. Vandeman, Ph.D.
>> July 3, 2004...

>
> At first glance, based on reactions to Mr. Vandeman's posts and the
> fact that mountain bikes do less damage than motorcycles, I was
> inclined to think he was a zealot. But many of his arguments are
> fundamentally sound when you look at the growing volume of riders, and
> the growing number of people in the wild, period. Those who go outdoors
> just to "tear it up" are becoming more of a nuisance as their total
> numbers climb. More on that below.
>
> The Sierra Club acknowledges that mountain biking isn't so
> nature-friendly and gives tips to minimize impact. Observations show me
> that these tips are ignored by extreme riders (they can't help but do
> so).
>
> http://www.rmc.sierraclub.org/pandp/1998-06/mi-bike.htm
>
> Clearly this isn't just lone wolf Vandeman howling at the moon.
> Bicycles in a straight line are fairly benign but braking/skidding
> definitely carves up more soil than walking ever could, unless hikers
> kept "sliding into base." And it IS annoying to share the trail with
> people at radically different speeds. The faster ones disrupt the
> slower ones by default. It's like meeting freeway traffic in a
> residential neighborhood; also similar to cross country skiers vs.
> snowmobilers. There needs to be humility on the part of "aggressors" in
> all of those situations.
>
> Having said that, I think the real problem with ALL wilderness
> recreation is the never-ending growth of our population. How many of
> you are aware that there are three million more Americans every year
> via immigration and native births? Those people inevitably take up more
> space and many travel to remote areas to escape crowds of their own
> making! We live in a shallow NIMBY society. Everyone wants a piece of
> the action but there's only a finite amount to go around. Some see
> what's really happening but others remain defiant about their "rights."
>
>
> The average working person seems unaware of physical limits. The more
> motorized they are, the less they tend to care about nature, but
> everyone plays a role because of the numbers glut. People make
> arguments for the inclusion of their sport-of-the-month without
> studying _cumulative_ pressure on land. Mountain biking is just one
> symptom of too many people jockeying for finite space.
>
> I personally prefer hiking to riding because it's harder to get
> injured, and it IS more about enjoying nature. There's not enough real
> wilderness left to keep sacrificing it for extreme sports (the need for
> extreme-everything is also a symptom of overcrowding; people feel
> trapped and bored in cities). I agree with the assessment that people
> who thrive on speed and "challenge" often have a weaker land ethic.
> Many mountain climbers fall into that category, too. They seem more
> interested in "the rush" than their increasingly battered surroundings.
>
> The only solution I can offer is something like this:
> http://www.npg.org/pop_policy.html
>
> R. Lander


Many thanks Lander for the extremely intelligent post. You have said it
better than Vandeman or I could have said it. You leave me with the hope
that there are some intelligent and sensitive souls left on this earth who
know how to prize that which is precious.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota
 
"Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 13 Jun 2006 00:11:54 -0700, "R. Lander" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>Mike Vandeman wrote:
>>
>>> The Impacts of Mountain Biking on Wildlife and People --
>>> A Review of the Literature
>>> Michael J. Vandeman, Ph.D.
>>> July 3, 2004...

>>
>>At first glance, based on reactions to Mr. Vandeman's posts and the
>>fact that mountain bikes do less damage than motorcycles, I was
>>inclined to think he was a zealot. But many of his arguments are
>>fundamentally sound when you look at the growing volume of riders, and
>>the growing number of people in the wild, period. Those who go outdoors
>>just to "tear it up" are becoming more of a nuisance as their total
>>numbers climb. More on that below.
>>
>>The Sierra Club acknowledges that mountain biking isn't so
>>nature-friendly and gives tips to minimize impact. Observations show me
>>that these tips are ignored by extreme riders (they can't help but do
>>so).
>>
>>http://www.rmc.sierraclub.org/pandp/1998-06/mi-bike.htm
>>
>>Clearly this isn't just lone wolf Vandeman howling at the moon.
>>Bicycles in a straight line are fairly benign

>
> Except that they create V-shaped ruts that make walking (and even
> biking) difficult and dangerous. They also kill small animals and
> plants and drive other trail users and wildlife out of the parks.

Amazing - You can't even give props to a fellow who, for the most part, is
playing on your side of the game.
It really is the "all or nothing" that makes you look like nuts to even
other environmentalists!
>
> but braking/skidding
>>definitely carves up more soil than walking ever could, unless hikers
>>kept "sliding into base." And it IS annoying to share the trail with
>>people at radically different speeds. The faster ones disrupt the
>>slower ones by default. It's like meeting freeway traffic in a
>>residential neighborhood; also similar to cross country skiers vs.
>>snowmobilers. There needs to be humility on the part of "aggressors" in
>>all of those situations.
>>
>>Having said that, I think the real problem with ALL wilderness
>>recreation is the never-ending growth of our population. How many of
>>you are aware that there are three million more Americans every year
>>via immigration and native births? Those people inevitably take up more
>>space and many travel to remote areas to escape crowds of their own
>>making! We live in a shallow NIMBY society. Everyone wants a piece of
>>the action but there's only a finite amount to go around. Some see
>>what's really happening but others remain defiant about their "rights."
>>
>>
>>The average working person seems unaware of physical limits. The more
>>motorized they are, the less they tend to care about nature, but
>>everyone plays a role because of the numbers glut. People make
>>arguments for the inclusion of their sport-of-the-month without
>>studying _cumulative_ pressure on land. Mountain biking is just one
>>symptom of too many people jockeying for finite space.
>>
>>I personally prefer hiking to riding because it's harder to get
>>injured, and it IS more about enjoying nature. There's not enough real
>>wilderness left to keep sacrificing it for extreme sports (the need for
>>extreme-everything is also a symptom of overcrowding; people feel
>>trapped and bored in cities). I agree with the assessment that people
>>who thrive on speed and "challenge" often have a weaker land ethic.
>>Many mountain climbers fall into that category, too. They seem more
>>interested in "the rush" than their increasingly battered surroundings.

>
> All you have to do to verify that is look at a mountain biking video.
> Just Google "mountain biking video".

...and find, for the most part, videos posted for entertainment purposes.
There is hardly any real reflection of simply riding a bike through the
woods. By sheer nature of the "entertainment" factor, these are probably the
most extreme examples available.
>
>>The only solution I can offer is something like this:
>>http://www.npg.org/pop_policy.html


Hmm... A little balance. A little common sense.
>>
>>R. Lander

> ===
 
On Wed, 14 Jun 2006 14:26:47 -0400, "S Curtiss" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>"Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On 13 Jun 2006 00:11:54 -0700, "R. Lander" <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Mike Vandeman wrote:
>>>
>>>> The Impacts of Mountain Biking on Wildlife and People --
>>>> A Review of the Literature
>>>> Michael J. Vandeman, Ph.D.
>>>> July 3, 2004...
>>>
>>>At first glance, based on reactions to Mr. Vandeman's posts and the
>>>fact that mountain bikes do less damage than motorcycles, I was
>>>inclined to think he was a zealot. But many of his arguments are
>>>fundamentally sound when you look at the growing volume of riders, and
>>>the growing number of people in the wild, period. Those who go outdoors
>>>just to "tear it up" are becoming more of a nuisance as their total
>>>numbers climb. More on that below.
>>>
>>>The Sierra Club acknowledges that mountain biking isn't so
>>>nature-friendly and gives tips to minimize impact. Observations show me
>>>that these tips are ignored by extreme riders (they can't help but do
>>>so).
>>>
>>>http://www.rmc.sierraclub.org/pandp/1998-06/mi-bike.htm
>>>
>>>Clearly this isn't just lone wolf Vandeman howling at the moon.
>>>Bicycles in a straight line are fairly benign

>>
>> Except that they create V-shaped ruts that make walking (and even
>> biking) difficult and dangerous. They also kill small animals and
>> plants and drive other trail users and wildlife out of the parks.

>Amazing - You can't even give props to a fellow who, for the most part, is
>playing on your side of the game.
>It really is the "all or nothing" that makes you look like nuts to even
>other environmentalists!
>>
>> but braking/skidding
>>>definitely carves up more soil than walking ever could, unless hikers
>>>kept "sliding into base." And it IS annoying to share the trail with
>>>people at radically different speeds. The faster ones disrupt the
>>>slower ones by default. It's like meeting freeway traffic in a
>>>residential neighborhood; also similar to cross country skiers vs.
>>>snowmobilers. There needs to be humility on the part of "aggressors" in
>>>all of those situations.
>>>
>>>Having said that, I think the real problem with ALL wilderness
>>>recreation is the never-ending growth of our population. How many of
>>>you are aware that there are three million more Americans every year
>>>via immigration and native births? Those people inevitably take up more
>>>space and many travel to remote areas to escape crowds of their own
>>>making! We live in a shallow NIMBY society. Everyone wants a piece of
>>>the action but there's only a finite amount to go around. Some see
>>>what's really happening but others remain defiant about their "rights."
>>>
>>>
>>>The average working person seems unaware of physical limits. The more
>>>motorized they are, the less they tend to care about nature, but
>>>everyone plays a role because of the numbers glut. People make
>>>arguments for the inclusion of their sport-of-the-month without
>>>studying _cumulative_ pressure on land. Mountain biking is just one
>>>symptom of too many people jockeying for finite space.
>>>
>>>I personally prefer hiking to riding because it's harder to get
>>>injured, and it IS more about enjoying nature. There's not enough real
>>>wilderness left to keep sacrificing it for extreme sports (the need for
>>>extreme-everything is also a symptom of overcrowding; people feel
>>>trapped and bored in cities). I agree with the assessment that people
>>>who thrive on speed and "challenge" often have a weaker land ethic.
>>>Many mountain climbers fall into that category, too. They seem more
>>>interested in "the rush" than their increasingly battered surroundings.

>>
>> All you have to do to verify that is look at a mountain biking video.
>> Just Google "mountain biking video".

>..and find, for the most part, videos posted for entertainment purposes.
>There is hardly any real reflection of simply riding a bike through the
>woods. By sheer nature of the "entertainment" factor, these are probably the
>most extreme examples available.


Nope, just normal mountain bikers on a normal ride, going too fast to
notice anything but a blur. It's obvious.
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
> Nope, just normal mountain bikers on a normal ride, going too fast to
> notice anything but a blur. It's obvious.

Isn't it obvious by these "too fast" and "too wild" accusations that
Mike Vandeman is nothing more than an angry old man?
His web page indicates his main hobbies are eating and a drug cult
called synanon which, happily, indicate he can't be much longer for this
life.
Shall we start the Vandeman death clock now?
What are the odds he doesn't keel over into his prune juice in the next
5 years?
 
"TheGist" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

[Mike Vandeman wrote:]

>> Nope, just normal mountain bikers on a normal ride, going too fast to
>> notice anything but a blur. It's obvious.

>
> Isn't it obvious by these "too fast" and "too wild" accusations that Mike
> Vandeman is nothing more than an angry old man?
> His web page indicates his main hobbies are eating and a drug cult called
> synanon which, happily, indicate he can't be much longer for this life.
> Shall we start the Vandeman death clock now?
> What are the odds he doesn't keel over into his prune juice in the next 5
> years?


TheGist (who is nowhere) is getting into my territory with his death wishes.
Saint Edward the Great has a whole collection of truly fearsome curses. Even
Ed Dolan the Great fears Saint Edward the Great because He has a direct line
to the Underworld.

Vandeman always states nothing but the most obvious when it comes to how
mountain bikers MUST ride their bikes on trails. The thing that amazes me
about him is his conciseness. I think that is the main thing that cause
numskulls like TheGist to go crazy. The fact is that in order to be that
concise it is required that you have some brains. I have never yet noticed
this quality from any of the mountain bikers. But still they like to get in
their two cents worth, even if it is only to wish someone dead.

Keep up the good work Mike! You are really getting to these idiots, morons
and imbeciles who infest AMB like the plague.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota
 
cc wrote:

> R. Lander wrote:
> > Mike Vandeman wrote:
> >
> >
> >>The Impacts of Mountain Biking on Wildlife and People --
> >>A Review of the Literature
> >>Michael J. Vandeman, Ph.D.
> >>July 3, 2004...

> >
> >
> > At first glance, based on reactions to Mr. Vandeman's posts and the
> > fact that mountain bikes do less damage than motorcycles, I was
> > inclined to think he was a zealot.

>
> Here's where you made your
> fatal mistake. Any human being
> of sound mind who has read >2
> of MVs posts has no choice but
> to conclude that he is a
> zealot incapable of rational
> thought. Anyone who does not
> see this is clearly also a
> zealot or mentally retarded.
> Which is it?


I don't buy into your all or nothing view of the universe; like Bush's
"you're either with us or against us" pre-Iraq war position. Time
proved that there was no single truth about that situation. Vandeman
may annoy people but that doesn't mean everything he says is false.
You're no better than him with your reactionary angle.

> > The Sierra Club acknowledges that mountain biking isn't so
> > nature-friendly and gives tips to minimize impact. Observations show me
> > that these tips are ignored by extreme riders (they can't help but do
> > so).

>
> Yes, but the science does not.
> Why don't you do the research,
> and maybe when you come back
> I'll give a **** about what
> you have to say. Until then go
> troll somewhere else, dickweed.


It obviously depends who's doing the science. I don't debate with 15
year-old punks, "dickweed."

> Again, who cares what you have to offer?


Hopefully more people than would care about your one-sided attitude;
that is, people capable of remaining open-minded no matter what. You
missed the point of my post, which is that ALL outdoor recreation is
infringing on wilderness as the population grows. Mechanized recreation
does more damage because the landscape didn't evolve in its presence.

R. Lander
 
Edward Dolan wrote:

> Many thanks Lander for the extremely intelligent post. You have said it
> better than Vandeman or I could have said it. You leave me with the hope
> that there are some intelligent and sensitive souls left on this earth who
> know how to prize that which is precious.


Thanks for the good words. I think maybe 20% of people truly "get it"
with regard to Man and nature. The rest are generally superficial, or
chasing dollars their whole lives.

R. Lander
 
On Thu, 15 Jun 2006 18:01:57 -0500, "Edward Dolan" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>"TheGist" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>
>[Mike Vandeman wrote:]
>
>>> Nope, just normal mountain bikers on a normal ride, going too fast to
>>> notice anything but a blur. It's obvious.

>>
>> Isn't it obvious by these "too fast" and "too wild" accusations that Mike
>> Vandeman is nothing more than an angry old man?
>> His web page indicates his main hobbies are eating and a drug cult called
>> synanon which, happily, indicate he can't be much longer for this life.
>> Shall we start the Vandeman death clock now?
>> What are the odds he doesn't keel over into his prune juice in the next 5
>> years?

>
>TheGist (who is nowhere) is getting into my territory with his death wishes.
>Saint Edward the Great has a whole collection of truly fearsome curses. Even
>Ed Dolan the Great fears Saint Edward the Great because He has a direct line
>to the Underworld.
>
>Vandeman always states nothing but the most obvious when it comes to how
>mountain bikers MUST ride their bikes on trails. The thing that amazes me
>about him is his conciseness. I think that is the main thing that cause
>numskulls like TheGist to go crazy. The fact is that in order to be that
>concise it is required that you have some brains. I have never yet noticed
>this quality from any of the mountain bikers. But still they like to get in
>their two cents worth, even if it is only to wish someone dead.
>
>Keep up the good work Mike! You are really getting to these idiots, morons
>and imbeciles who infest AMB like the plague.


All the mountain bikers with IQs over 10 have already given up and
filtered my posts out, so they don't have to be confused by facts.
What we have left is just the dregs in the bottom of the barrel. As
anyone can easily see....

>Regards,
>
>Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
>aka
>Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota
>

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
R. Lander wrote:
> cc wrote:
>
>
>>R. Lander wrote:
>>
>>>Mike Vandeman wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>The Impacts of Mountain Biking on Wildlife and People --
>>>>A Review of the Literature
>>>>Michael J. Vandeman, Ph.D.
>>>>July 3, 2004...
>>>
>>>
>>>At first glance, based on reactions to Mr. Vandeman's posts and the
>>>fact that mountain bikes do less damage than motorcycles, I was
>>>inclined to think he was a zealot.

>>
>>Here's where you made your
>>fatal mistake. Any human being
>>of sound mind who has read >2
>>of MVs posts has no choice but
>>to conclude that he is a
>>zealot incapable of rational
>>thought. Anyone who does not
>>see this is clearly also a
>>zealot or mentally retarded.
>>Which is it?

>
>
> I don't buy into your all or nothing view of the universe; like Bush's
> "you're either with us or against us" pre-Iraq war position. Time
> proved that there was no single truth about that situation. Vandeman
> may annoy people but that doesn't mean everything he says is false.
> You're no better than him with your reactionary angle.
>


Yes, but Vandeman's opinion IS
one-sided. If you care to
enter into a rational
conversation, don't do so by
defending Vandeman. Period. If
you are really aiming to have
a debate involving compromise
and speaking about so-called
"facts," then MV could not be
any further from that concept.

>
>>>The Sierra Club acknowledges that mountain biking isn't so
>>>nature-friendly and gives tips to minimize impact. Observations show me
>>>that these tips are ignored by extreme riders (they can't help but do
>>>so).

>>
>>Yes, but the science does not.
>>Why don't you do the research,
>>and maybe when you come back
>>I'll give a **** about what
>>you have to say. Until then go
>>troll somewhere else, dickweed.

>
>


Again, try this: google this
newsgroup, read the threads.
Read the research. Then come
back once you have a clue.
Otherwise you're just trolling.

HAND.
 
R. Lander wrote:
> Edward Dolan wrote:
>
>
>>Many thanks Lander for the extremely intelligent post. You have said it
>>better than Vandeman or I could have said it. You leave me with the hope
>>that there are some intelligent and sensitive souls left on this earth who
>>know how to prize that which is precious.

>
>
> Thanks for the good words. I think maybe 20% of people truly "get it"
> with regard to Man and nature. The rest are generally superficial, or
> chasing dollars their whole lives.
>


Christ it's a troll orgy.
 
On 15 Jun 2006 20:17:02 -0700, "R. Lander" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>cc wrote:
>
>> R. Lander wrote:
>> > Mike Vandeman wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >>The Impacts of Mountain Biking on Wildlife and People --
>> >>A Review of the Literature
>> >>Michael J. Vandeman, Ph.D.
>> >>July 3, 2004...
>> >
>> >
>> > At first glance, based on reactions to Mr. Vandeman's posts and the
>> > fact that mountain bikes do less damage than motorcycles, I was
>> > inclined to think he was a zealot.

>>
>> Here's where you made your
>> fatal mistake. Any human being
>> of sound mind who has read >2
>> of MVs posts has no choice but
>> to conclude that he is a
>> zealot incapable of rational
>> thought. Anyone who does not
>> see this is clearly also a
>> zealot or mentally retarded.
>> Which is it?

>
>I don't buy into your all or nothing view of the universe; like Bush's
>"you're either with us or against us" pre-Iraq war position. Time
>proved that there was no single truth about that situation. Vandeman
>may annoy people but that doesn't mean everything he says is false.
>You're no better than him with your reactionary angle.
>
>> > The Sierra Club acknowledges that mountain biking isn't so
>> > nature-friendly and gives tips to minimize impact. Observations show me
>> > that these tips are ignored by extreme riders (they can't help but do
>> > so).

>>
>> Yes, but the science does not.
>> Why don't you do the research,
>> and maybe when you come back
>> I'll give a **** about what
>> you have to say. Until then go
>> troll somewhere else, dickweed.


cc (hiding behind an anonymous name) obviously (1) hasn't done any
research and (2) hasn't READ the research that exists. He is just
practicing ******'s dictum: he thinks that if he repeats that lie
often enough, it will become true. In fact, I dare say that I am the
ONLY person in these newsgroups who has actually read all of that
research.

>It obviously depends who's doing the science. I don't debate with 15
>year-old punks, "dickweed."
>
>> Again, who cares what you have to offer?

>
>Hopefully more people than would care about your one-sided attitude;
>that is, people capable of remaining open-minded no matter what. You
>missed the point of my post, which is that ALL outdoor recreation is
>infringing on wilderness as the population grows. Mechanized recreation
>does more damage because the landscape didn't evolve in its presence.
>
>R. Lander

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
On Thu, 15 Jun 2006 21:42:38 -0700, cc <[email protected]> wrote:

>R. Lander wrote:
>> cc wrote:
>>
>>
>>>R. Lander wrote:
>>>
>>>>Mike Vandeman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>The Impacts of Mountain Biking on Wildlife and People --
>>>>>A Review of the Literature
>>>>>Michael J. Vandeman, Ph.D.
>>>>>July 3, 2004...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>At first glance, based on reactions to Mr. Vandeman's posts and the
>>>>fact that mountain bikes do less damage than motorcycles, I was
>>>>inclined to think he was a zealot.
>>>
>>>Here's where you made your
>>>fatal mistake. Any human being
>>>of sound mind who has read >2
>>>of MVs posts has no choice but
>>>to conclude that he is a
>>>zealot incapable of rational
>>>thought. Anyone who does not
>>>see this is clearly also a
>>>zealot or mentally retarded.
>>>Which is it?

>>
>>
>> I don't buy into your all or nothing view of the universe; like Bush's
>> "you're either with us or against us" pre-Iraq war position. Time
>> proved that there was no single truth about that situation. Vandeman
>> may annoy people but that doesn't mean everything he says is false.
>> You're no better than him with your reactionary angle.
>>

>
>Yes, but Vandeman's opinion IS
>one-sided. If you care to
>enter into a rational
>conversation, don't do so by
>defending Vandeman. Period. If
>you are really aiming to have
>a debate involving compromise
>and speaking about so-called
>"facts," then MV could not be
>any further from that concept.
>
>>
>>>>The Sierra Club acknowledges that mountain biking isn't so
>>>>nature-friendly and gives tips to minimize impact. Observations show me
>>>>that these tips are ignored by extreme riders (they can't help but do
>>>>so).
>>>
>>>Yes, but the science does not.
>>>Why don't you do the research,
>>>and maybe when you come back
>>>I'll give a **** about what
>>>you have to say. Until then go
>>>troll somewhere else, dickweed.

>>
>>

>
>Again, try this: google this
>newsgroup, read the threads.
>Read the research.


I doubt that you have actually read the original research articles,
only IMBA's whitewash of them. Tell us what you have read, or shut up.

Then come
>back once you have a clue.
>Otherwise you're just trolling.
>
>HAND.

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
On 15 Jun 2006 20:22:17 -0700, "R. Lander" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Edward Dolan wrote:
>
>> Many thanks Lander for the extremely intelligent post. You have said it
>> better than Vandeman or I could have said it. You leave me with the hope
>> that there are some intelligent and sensitive souls left on this earth who
>> know how to prize that which is precious.

>
>Thanks for the good words. I think maybe 20% of people truly "get it"
>with regard to Man and nature. The rest are generally superficial, or
>chasing dollars their whole lives.


What's truly amazing is that it is so EASY to understand, and yet
humans are so selfish that they refuse to consider our obvious 100%
dependency on wildlife and its incompatibility with human development,
including recreation.

>R. Lander

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
Mike Vandeman wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Jun 2006 21:42:38 -0700, cc <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>R. Lander wrote:
>>
>>>cc wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>R. Lander wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Mike Vandeman wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>The Impacts of Mountain Biking on Wildlife and People --
>>>>>>A Review of the Literature
>>>>>>Michael J. Vandeman, Ph.D.
>>>>>>July 3, 2004...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>At first glance, based on reactions to Mr. Vandeman's posts and the
>>>>>fact that mountain bikes do less damage than motorcycles, I was
>>>>>inclined to think he was a zealot.
>>>>
>>>>Here's where you made your
>>>>fatal mistake. Any human being
>>>>of sound mind who has read >2
>>>>of MVs posts has no choice but
>>>>to conclude that he is a
>>>>zealot incapable of rational
>>>>thought. Anyone who does not
>>>>see this is clearly also a
>>>>zealot or mentally retarded.
>>>>Which is it?
>>>
>>>
>>>I don't buy into your all or nothing view of the universe; like Bush's
>>>"you're either with us or against us" pre-Iraq war position. Time
>>>proved that there was no single truth about that situation. Vandeman
>>>may annoy people but that doesn't mean everything he says is false.
>>>You're no better than him with your reactionary angle.
>>>

>>
>>Yes, but Vandeman's opinion IS
>>one-sided. If you care to
>>enter into a rational
>>conversation, don't do so by
>>defending Vandeman. Period. If
>>you are really aiming to have
>>a debate involving compromise
>>and speaking about so-called
>>"facts," then MV could not be
>>any further from that concept.
>>
>>
>>>>>The Sierra Club acknowledges that mountain biking isn't so
>>>>>nature-friendly and gives tips to minimize impact. Observations show me
>>>>>that these tips are ignored by extreme riders (they can't help but do
>>>>>so).
>>>>
>>>>Yes, but the science does not.
>>>>Why don't you do the research,
>>>>and maybe when you come back
>>>>I'll give a **** about what
>>>>you have to say. Until then go
>>>>troll somewhere else, dickweed.
>>>
>>>

>>Again, try this: google this
>>newsgroup, read the threads.
>>Read the research.

>
>
> I doubt that you have actually read the original research articles,
> only IMBA's whitewash of them. Tell us what you have read, or shut up.
>


The burden is not on me, MV.
It's on you. I've read all
your explanations, and am not
convinced. Your turn to shut up.
 
"cc" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...

[ARBR newsgroup restored]

> R. Lander wrote:
>> Edward Dolan wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Many thanks Lander for the extremely intelligent post. You have said it
>>>better than Vandeman or I could have said it. You leave me with the hope
>>>that there are some intelligent and sensitive souls left on this earth
>>>who
>>>know how to prize that which is precious.

>>
>>
>> Thanks for the good words. I think maybe 20% of people truly "get it"
>> with regard to Man and nature. The rest are generally superficial, or
>> chasing dollars their whole lives.
>>

>
> Christ it's a troll orgy.


CC (no real name like all those who resort to obscenities), you are now
coming across as the true idiot that you are. It is no good trying to refer
us to what might have been said on these forums years ago. We are only
interested in what is presently being said. Usenet is not a college
symposium where you have to do your homework. Everything here is off the top
of our heads. Vandeman, Lander and I have made you look like a fool and all
you are doing is referring us to ancient history. Either get with the
program or get lost!

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota
 
On Fri, 16 Jun 2006 09:33:05 -0700, cc <[email protected]> wrote:

>Mike Vandeman wrote:
>> On Thu, 15 Jun 2006 21:42:38 -0700, cc <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>R. Lander wrote:
>>>
>>>>cc wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>R. Lander wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Mike Vandeman wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The Impacts of Mountain Biking on Wildlife and People --
>>>>>>>A Review of the Literature
>>>>>>>Michael J. Vandeman, Ph.D.
>>>>>>>July 3, 2004...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>At first glance, based on reactions to Mr. Vandeman's posts and the
>>>>>>fact that mountain bikes do less damage than motorcycles, I was
>>>>>>inclined to think he was a zealot.
>>>>>
>>>>>Here's where you made your
>>>>>fatal mistake. Any human being
>>>>>of sound mind who has read >2
>>>>>of MVs posts has no choice but
>>>>>to conclude that he is a
>>>>>zealot incapable of rational
>>>>>thought. Anyone who does not
>>>>>see this is clearly also a
>>>>>zealot or mentally retarded.
>>>>>Which is it?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I don't buy into your all or nothing view of the universe; like Bush's
>>>>"you're either with us or against us" pre-Iraq war position. Time
>>>>proved that there was no single truth about that situation. Vandeman
>>>>may annoy people but that doesn't mean everything he says is false.
>>>>You're no better than him with your reactionary angle.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Yes, but Vandeman's opinion IS
>>>one-sided. If you care to
>>>enter into a rational
>>>conversation, don't do so by
>>>defending Vandeman. Period. If
>>>you are really aiming to have
>>>a debate involving compromise
>>>and speaking about so-called
>>>"facts," then MV could not be
>>>any further from that concept.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>The Sierra Club acknowledges that mountain biking isn't so
>>>>>>nature-friendly and gives tips to minimize impact. Observations show me
>>>>>>that these tips are ignored by extreme riders (they can't help but do
>>>>>>so).
>>>>>
>>>>>Yes, but the science does not.
>>>>>Why don't you do the research,
>>>>>and maybe when you come back
>>>>>I'll give a **** about what
>>>>>you have to say. Until then go
>>>>>troll somewhere else, dickweed.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Again, try this: google this
>>>newsgroup, read the threads.
>>>Read the research.

>>
>>
>> I doubt that you have actually read the original research articles,
>> only IMBA's whitewash of them. Tell us what you have read, or shut up.
>>

>
>The burden is not on me, MV.
>It's on you. I've read all
>your explanations, and am not
>convinced. Your turn to shut up.


EXACTLY what I expected: You are touting research that you haven't
even READ! Exactly what I would expect from a mountain biker. If you
had actually READ it, you would have to agree with me (or lie --
something that mountain bikers also know a lot about).
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande