Incorporating plyometrics

Ranieri' nah said:

victim: 16 yo competive male swimmer,

I pumped his little [censored] dry...

Quoted message said:

Thinking of adding a plyo day

people who believe in the nonsense of plyometrics get what they
deserve: injured.

"Ranieri" <nah> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

victim: 16 yo competive male swimmer, 1.5 years exp weight training -
bench, squat, pullups, hang cleans, rows plus lighter weight RC injury
preventative cable stuff. Finishing up 6 week max strength phase.
Wants to begin more power focused training prior to start of summer
season.

Thinking of adding a plyo day - medicine ball drop/throws, reactive
box jumps (low/mid) and trying to think of a good pulling plyo
exercise. The cleans are good - but wondering if there's a good
variant of a pullup that can be performed plyometrically.

Also - since the comp season is approaching (2-3 weeks) and the plyos
have been added, thinking of ramping up the volume a bit on the 2
remaining lifting days and cutting back intensity (65-80%) to allow
for more neural recovery. However, this seems to be more of a
hypertrophy scheme, and hypertrophy isn't really our friend when it
comes to slicing through water. Decisions, decisions.

Are you planning on him lifting in-season?

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

"Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Ranieri" <nah> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

victim: 16 yo competive male swimmer, 1.5 years exp weight training -
bench, squat, pullups, hang cleans, rows plus lighter weight RC injury
preventative cable stuff. Finishing up 6 week max strength phase. Wants
to begin more power focused training prior to start of summer season.

Thinking of adding a plyo day - medicine ball drop/throws, reactive box
jumps (low/mid) and trying to think of a good pulling plyo exercise. The
cleans are good - but wondering if there's a good variant of a pullup
that can be performed plyometrically.

Also - since the comp season is approaching (2-3 weeks) and the plyos
have been added, thinking of ramping up the volume a bit on the 2
remaining lifting days and cutting back intensity (65-80%) to allow for
more neural recovery. However, this seems to be more of a hypertrophy
scheme, and hypertrophy isn't really our friend when it comes to slicing
through water. Decisions, decisions.

Are you planning on him lifting in-season?

Once season starts, the coach puts them on a program which is basically
maint. They do a huge volume of swimming early in the season and then go
into taper (reduced volume and intensity) mode shortly before the
championship meets. They also stop weights during taper.

In article said:

victim: 16 yo competive male swimmer, 1.5 years exp weight training -
bench, squat, pullups, hang cleans, rows plus lighter weight RC injury
preventative cable stuff. Finishing up 6 week max strength phase. Wants to
begin more power focused training prior to start of summer season.

Thinking of adding a plyo day - medicine ball drop/throws, reactive box
jumps (low/mid) and trying to think of a good pulling plyo exercise. The
cleans are good - but wondering if there's a good variant of a pullup that
can be performed plyometrically.

Also - since the comp season is approaching (2-3 weeks) and the plyos have
been added, thinking of ramping up the volume a bit on the 2 remaining
lifting days and cutting back intensity (65-80%) to allow for more neural
recovery. However, this seems to be more of a hypertrophy scheme, and
hypertrophy isn't really our friend when it comes to slicing through water.
Decisions, decisions.

To be honest, I don't see the point in lower body plyometrics for
swimmers. The musculature that is used in the lower body in swimming
(primarily hips) isn't worth the loading on the knees and ankles. There
isn't enough carry-over IMO.

For upper body remember you are primarily doing a stretch/shortening
exercise. The guy who basically invented them (Verkhoshansky) doesn't
even use the term 'plyometrics' anymore since the abuse of how they are
used is so blatant. But anyhow - pretty easy to create a
stretch/shortening in the pull movement. You can do a 'drop' chin - have
the person hang from a bar with the elbow slightly bent and then drop
and pull as hard as possible. This can also be done with the legs
elevated on something to decrease bodyweight resistance.

You can also do a variety of overhead medicine ball throws from the
drop. As in the ball is dropped into the persons hands and then they
throw as high over their head as they can. The myotatic stretch reflex
can last up to 2 seconds so this will work and give them some hip
involvement as well.

You could also do a clean from the dead hang, but remember cleans are
primarily a lower body exercise.

Remember to do only a couple of weeks 3-4 times per year with
stretch/shortening. And do exercises which prepare them (the
weightlifting in itself serves in this case.)

--
Keith

"Hobbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article said:

victim: 16 yo competive male swimmer, 1.5 years exp weight training -
bench, squat, pullups, hang cleans, rows plus lighter weight RC injury
preventative cable stuff. Finishing up 6 week max strength phase. Wants
to
begin more power focused training prior to start of summer season.

Thinking of adding a plyo day - medicine ball drop/throws, reactive box
jumps (low/mid) and trying to think of a good pulling plyo exercise. The
cleans are good - but wondering if there's a good variant of a pullup
that
can be performed plyometrically.

Also - since the comp season is approaching (2-3 weeks) and the plyos
have
been added, thinking of ramping up the volume a bit on the 2 remaining
lifting days and cutting back intensity (65-80%) to allow for more neural
recovery. However, this seems to be more of a hypertrophy scheme, and
hypertrophy isn't really our friend when it comes to slicing through
water.
Decisions, decisions.

To be honest, I don't see the point in lower body plyometrics for
swimmers. The musculature that is used in the lower body in swimming
(primarily hips) isn't worth the loading on the knees and ankles. There
isn't enough carry-over IMO.

For upper body remember you are primarily doing a stretch/shortening
exercise. The guy who basically invented them (Verkhoshansky) doesn't
even use the term 'plyometrics' anymore since the abuse of how they are
used is so blatant. But anyhow - pretty easy to create a
stretch/shortening in the pull movement. You can do a 'drop' chin - have
the person hang from a bar with the elbow slightly bent and then drop
and pull as hard as possible. This can also be done with the legs
elevated on something to decrease bodyweight resistance.

You can also do a variety of overhead medicine ball throws from the
drop. As in the ball is dropped into the persons hands and then they
throw as high over their head as they can. The myotatic stretch reflex
can last up to 2 seconds so this will work and give them some hip
involvement as well.

You could also do a clean from the dead hang, but remember cleans are
primarily a lower body exercise.

Remember to do only a couple of weeks 3-4 times per year with
stretch/shortening. And do exercises which prepare them (the
weightlifting in itself serves in this case.)

Thanks. Good advice on the drop chin. Our facility has one of those
Gravitron assited pullup machines that might be a good way to do these.

As for the low body stuff - his main events are sprints so a strong push off
the blocks is pretty important, as well as the push off the wall in a turn.

"Ranieri" <nah> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Ranieri" <nah> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

victim: 16 yo competive male swimmer, 1.5 years exp weight
training - bench, squat, pullups, hang cleans, rows plus lighter
weight RC injury preventative cable stuff. Finishing up 6 week max
strength phase. Wants to begin more power focused training prior to
start of summer season.

Thinking of adding a plyo day - medicine ball drop/throws, reactive
box jumps (low/mid) and trying to think of a good pulling plyo
exercise. The cleans are good - but wondering if there's a good
variant of a pullup that can be performed plyometrically.

Also - since the comp season is approaching (2-3 weeks) and the
plyos have been added, thinking of ramping up the volume a bit on
the 2 remaining lifting days and cutting back intensity (65-80%) to
allow for more neural recovery. However, this seems to be more of a
hypertrophy scheme, and hypertrophy isn't really our friend when it
comes to slicing through water. Decisions, decisions.

Are you planning on him lifting in-season?

Once season starts, the coach puts them on a program which is
basically maint. They do a huge volume of swimming early in the season
and then go into taper (reduced volume and intensity) mode shortly
before the championship meets. They also stop weights during taper.

If they're going to be on another lifting program during the season
which starts in 2-3 weeks, why change anything now?

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

"Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Ranieri" <nah> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Ranieri" <nah> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> victim: 16 yo competive male swimmer, 1.5 years exp weight training -
> bench, squat, pullups, hang cleans, rows plus lighter weight RC injury
> preventative cable stuff. Finishing up 6 week max strength phase. Wants
> to begin more power focused training prior to start of summer season.
>
> Thinking of adding a plyo day - medicine ball drop/throws, reactive box
> jumps (low/mid) and trying to think of a good pulling plyo exercise.
> The cleans are good - but wondering if there's a good variant of a
> pullup that can be performed plyometrically.
>
> Also - since the comp season is approaching (2-3 weeks) and the plyos
> have been added, thinking of ramping up the volume a bit on the 2
> remaining lifting days and cutting back intensity (65-80%) to allow for
> more neural recovery. However, this seems to be more of a hypertrophy
> scheme, and hypertrophy isn't really our friend when it comes to
> slicing through water. Decisions, decisions.

Are you planning on him lifting in-season?

Once season starts, the coach puts them on a program which is basically
maint. They do a huge volume of swimming early in the season and then go
into taper (reduced volume and intensity) mode shortly before the
championship meets. They also stop weights during taper.

If they're going to be on another lifting program during the season which
starts in 2-3 weeks, why change anything now?

I figured 3 weeks would be a nice short window to incorporate some power
development prior to coaches program.

"Ranieri" <nah> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Ranieri" <nah> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> "Ranieri" <nah> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
>> victim: 16 yo competive male swimmer, 1.5 years exp weight
>> training - bench, squat, pullups, hang cleans, rows plus lighter
>> weight RC injury preventative cable stuff. Finishing up 6 week max
>> strength phase. Wants to begin more power focused training prior
>> to start of summer season.
>>
>> Thinking of adding a plyo day - medicine ball drop/throws,
>> reactive box jumps (low/mid) and trying to think of a good pulling
>> plyo exercise. The cleans are good - but wondering if there's a
>> good variant of a pullup that can be performed plyometrically.
>>
>> Also - since the comp season is approaching (2-3 weeks) and the
>> plyos have been added, thinking of ramping up the volume a bit on
>> the 2 remaining lifting days and cutting back intensity (65-80%)
>> to allow for more neural recovery. However, this seems to be more
>> of a hypertrophy scheme, and hypertrophy isn't really our friend
>> when it comes to slicing through water. Decisions, decisions.
>
> Are you planning on him lifting in-season?
>

Once season starts, the coach puts them on a program which is
basically maint. They do a huge volume of swimming early in the
season and then go into taper (reduced volume and intensity) mode
shortly before the championship meets. They also stop weights during
taper.

If they're going to be on another lifting program during the season
which starts in 2-3 weeks, why change anything now?

I figured 3 weeks would be a nice short window to incorporate some
power development prior to coaches program.

They say training effect takes at least a couple of weeks to kick in -
not true for purely neurological changes, of course, but I guess I just
don't see the point of starting something and not being able to spend
enough time on it to make some real progress and gain the satisfaction
of doing that - I think 3 weeks of something new then stopping it would
feel frustrating to me. And, as others have observed, plyometrics can
be a bit risky and should be entered into gradually - another reason I
don't think I'd introduce them at this point.

Given that he's done the work of lifting already, I wouldn't be too
concerned about scaling down the CNS load - you might even let him try
some new 1RM's in the next week or two then take it down to next to
nothing from there. If anything, I'd think that might help keep some of
what you've worked on as he moves into high volume endurance training.

Mention of the RC injury suggests that a simple prehab program of
RC-healthy exercises, even done on his own outside the coaches direct
supervision, might be a good thing, too. Maybe some of them can serve
as his personal warmups before he hits team practice each day.

Just my opinions.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

"Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Ranieri" <nah> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Ranieri" <nah> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
>
> "Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
>> "Ranieri" <nah> wrote in message
>> news:[email hidden]...
>>> victim: 16 yo competive male swimmer, 1.5 years exp weight training -
>>> bench, squat, pullups, hang cleans, rows plus lighter weight RC
>>> injury preventative cable stuff. Finishing up 6 week max strength
>>> phase. Wants to begin more power focused training prior to start of
>>> summer season.
>>>
>>> Thinking of adding a plyo day - medicine ball drop/throws, reactive
>>> box jumps (low/mid) and trying to think of a good pulling plyo
>>> exercise. The cleans are good - but wondering if there's a good
>>> variant of a pullup that can be performed plyometrically.
>>>
>>> Also - since the comp season is approaching (2-3 weeks) and the
>>> plyos have been added, thinking of ramping up the volume a bit on the
>>> 2 remaining lifting days and cutting back intensity (65-80%) to allow
>>> for more neural recovery. However, this seems to be more of a
>>> hypertrophy scheme, and hypertrophy isn't really our friend when it
>>> comes to slicing through water. Decisions, decisions.
>>
>> Are you planning on him lifting in-season?
>>
>
> Once season starts, the coach puts them on a program which is basically
> maint. They do a huge volume of swimming early in the season and then
> go into taper (reduced volume and intensity) mode shortly before the
> championship meets. They also stop weights during taper.

If they're going to be on another lifting program during the season
which starts in 2-3 weeks, why change anything now?

I figured 3 weeks would be a nice short window to incorporate some power
development prior to coaches program.

They say training effect takes at least a couple of weeks to kick in - not
true for purely neurological changes, of course, but I guess I just don't
see the point of starting something and not being able to spend enough
time on it to make some real progress and gain the satisfaction of doing
that - I think 3 weeks of something new then stopping it would feel
frustrating to me. And, as others have observed, plyometrics can be a bit
risky and should be entered into gradually - another reason I don't think
I'd introduce them at this point.

Given that he's done the work of lifting already, I wouldn't be too
concerned about scaling down the CNS load - you might even let him try
some new 1RM's in the next week or two then take it down to next to
nothing from there. If anything, I'd think that might help keep some of
what you've worked on as he moves into high volume endurance training.

Mention of the RC injury suggests that a simple prehab program of
RC-healthy exercises, even done on his own outside the coaches direct
supervision, might be a good thing, too. Maybe some of them can serve as
his personal warmups before he hits team practice each day.

Just my opinions.

Well, I modeled his off season workout on a Bompa periodization program
which calls for a 6-8 week max strength program followed a conversion to
power period lasting only 3 weeks. I think the adaptations with this type of
stetch-reflex workout may occur more quickly. Also, given the high stress -
I understand it's indvisable to do this type of workout for much longer than
that (esp in a young athlete).

As for RC preventative, you're right, it's esp. critical for swimmers. He's
pretty good about keeping up on rotation cable stuff and lateral/posterior
delt work.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Ranieri' nah said:

"Hobbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article said:

victim: 16 yo competive male swimmer, 1.5 years exp weight training -
bench, squat, pullups, hang cleans, rows plus lighter weight RC injury
preventative cable stuff. Finishing up 6 week max strength phase. Wants
to
begin more power focused training prior to start of summer season.

Thinking of adding a plyo day - medicine ball drop/throws, reactive box
jumps (low/mid) and trying to think of a good pulling plyo exercise. The
cleans are good - but wondering if there's a good variant of a pullup
that
can be performed plyometrically.

Also - since the comp season is approaching (2-3 weeks) and the plyos
have
been added, thinking of ramping up the volume a bit on the 2 remaining
lifting days and cutting back intensity (65-80%) to allow for more neural
recovery. However, this seems to be more of a hypertrophy scheme, and
hypertrophy isn't really our friend when it comes to slicing through
water.
Decisions, decisions.

To be honest, I don't see the point in lower body plyometrics for
swimmers. The musculature that is used in the lower body in swimming
(primarily hips) isn't worth the loading on the knees and ankles. There
isn't enough carry-over IMO.

For upper body remember you are primarily doing a stretch/shortening
exercise. The guy who basically invented them (Verkhoshansky) doesn't
even use the term 'plyometrics' anymore since the abuse of how they are
used is so blatant. But anyhow - pretty easy to create a
stretch/shortening in the pull movement. You can do a 'drop' chin - have
the person hang from a bar with the elbow slightly bent and then drop
and pull as hard as possible. This can also be done with the legs
elevated on something to decrease bodyweight resistance.

You can also do a variety of overhead medicine ball throws from the
drop. As in the ball is dropped into the persons hands and then they
throw as high over their head as they can. The myotatic stretch reflex
can last up to 2 seconds so this will work and give them some hip
involvement as well.

You could also do a clean from the dead hang, but remember cleans are
primarily a lower body exercise.

Remember to do only a couple of weeks 3-4 times per year with
stretch/shortening. And do exercises which prepare them (the
weightlifting in itself serves in this case.)

Thanks. Good advice on the drop chin. Our facility has one of those
Gravitron assited pullup machines that might be a good way to do these.

As for the low body stuff - his main events are sprints so a strong push off
the blocks is pretty important, as well as the push off the wall in a turn.

Ahhh! Good thinking that. I wasn't even considering that when I thought.

Obviously I haven't worked with swimmers. Good point. I'll change my
thoughts on lower body plyos for swimmers.

--
Keith

In article <[email hidden]>,

Ranieri' nah said:

"Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Ranieri" <nah> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> "Ranieri" <nah> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
>> victim: 16 yo competive male swimmer, 1.5 years exp weight training -
>> bench, squat, pullups, hang cleans, rows plus lighter weight RC injury
>> preventative cable stuff. Finishing up 6 week max strength phase. Wants
>> to begin more power focused training prior to start of summer season.
>>
>> Thinking of adding a plyo day - medicine ball drop/throws, reactive box
>> jumps (low/mid) and trying to think of a good pulling plyo exercise.
>> The cleans are good - but wondering if there's a good variant of a
>> pullup that can be performed plyometrically.
>>
>> Also - since the comp season is approaching (2-3 weeks) and the plyos
>> have been added, thinking of ramping up the volume a bit on the 2
>> remaining lifting days and cutting back intensity (65-80%) to allow for
>> more neural recovery. However, this seems to be more of a hypertrophy
>> scheme, and hypertrophy isn't really our friend when it comes to
>> slicing through water. Decisions, decisions.
>
> Are you planning on him lifting in-season?
>

Once season starts, the coach puts them on a program which is basically
maint. They do a huge volume of swimming early in the season and then go
into taper (reduced volume and intensity) mode shortly before the
championship meets. They also stop weights during taper.

If they're going to be on another lifting program during the season which
starts in 2-3 weeks, why change anything now?

I figured 3 weeks would be a nice short window to incorporate some power
development prior to coaches program.

I agree. You wouldn't want to do plyos for any longer anyhow and they
should be done infrequently.

--
Keith