Indexed Shifting Curiosity



J

Jeff Travis

Guest
Greetings --

I've discovered something curious about the indexed shifting on my
bike (Campag 10-speed), and am hoping someone can enlighten me.

In pursuit of cleaner shifting, I tried a new (to me) approach to
adjusting the rear derailleur shift wire tension. Here are the steps
I followed:

1. Remove chain.
2. Disconnect rear derailleur shift wire.
2. Verify proper alignment of derailleur hanger.
3. Verify outer limit screw set so that jockey pulley is directly
underneath smallest sprocket.
4. Verify inner limit screw set so that jockey pulley is very slightly
inboard of largest sprocket when the parallelogram is deformed to the
inner limit by hand.
5. Verify shifter control is set for smallest rear sprocket.
6. Using fourth hand tool, tension shift wire and reattach to
derailleur.
7. Verify jockey pulley is still directly under the smallest sprocket.
8. Using the shifter, shift the derailleur one click; verify jockey
pulley is directly under next-smallest sprocket; adjust shift wire
tension as necessary.
9. Using the shifter, shift the derailleur to the next-largest or
largest sprocket; check position of jockey pulley.

Now for the curious part. At this point the jockey pulley does not
line up directly underneath the selected sprocket, but slightly
outboard. So I've shifted over 8 (or 9) clicks starting from perfect
alignment on the smallest or next-smallest sprocket, and the alignment
is now not perfect.

It seems like if the tension is set to put the pulley directly under
the largest sprocket, you won't be able to shift onto the smaller
ones, and if it's set to put the pulley directly under the smaller
sprockets you won't get a clean shift onto the larger ones.

Can you explain why the shifter works this way? Can you describe how
to judge the correct shift wire tension using this approach?

Thanks much,

Jeff Travis
 
B

Ben C

Guest
On 2007-10-24, Jeff Travis <[email protected]> wrote:
> Greetings --
>
> I've discovered something curious about the indexed shifting on my
> bike (Campag 10-speed), and am hoping someone can enlighten me.
>
> In pursuit of cleaner shifting, I tried a new (to me) approach to
> adjusting the rear derailleur shift wire tension. Here are the steps
> I followed:
>
> 1. Remove chain.
> 2. Disconnect rear derailleur shift wire.
> 2. Verify proper alignment of derailleur hanger.
> 3. Verify outer limit screw set so that jockey pulley is directly
> underneath smallest sprocket.
> 4. Verify inner limit screw set so that jockey pulley is very slightly
> inboard of largest sprocket when the parallelogram is deformed to the
> inner limit by hand.
> 5. Verify shifter control is set for smallest rear sprocket.
> 6. Using fourth hand tool, tension shift wire and reattach to
> derailleur.
> 7. Verify jockey pulley is still directly under the smallest sprocket.
> 8. Using the shifter, shift the derailleur one click; verify jockey
> pulley is directly under next-smallest sprocket; adjust shift wire
> tension as necessary.
> 9. Using the shifter, shift the derailleur to the next-largest or
> largest sprocket; check position of jockey pulley.
>
> Now for the curious part. At this point the jockey pulley does not
> line up directly underneath the selected sprocket, but slightly
> outboard. So I've shifted over 8 (or 9) clicks starting from perfect
> alignment on the smallest or next-smallest sprocket, and the alignment
> is now not perfect.
>
> It seems like if the tension is set to put the pulley directly under
> the largest sprocket, you won't be able to shift onto the smaller
> ones, and if it's set to put the pulley directly under the smaller
> sprockets you won't get a clean shift onto the larger ones.
>
> Can you explain why the shifter works this way?


No, it sounds like an interesting phenomenon. Perhaps some kind of
"cosine error" or something.

> Can you describe how to judge the correct shift wire tension using
> this approach?


I just set the wire tension about right and then ride the bike. If it
seems reluctant to change to smaller or larger sprockets, loosen or
tighten the wire a little bit.

This is particularly easy to do because my bike has barrel-bolt
adjusters generously provided all over the place, so you can fine-tune
it while you're riding.
 
J

Jeff Travis

Guest
On Oct 24, 12:53 pm, Ben C <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 2007-10-24, Jeff Travis <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Greetings --

>
> > I've discovered something curious about the indexed shifting on my
> > bike (Campag 10-speed), and am hoping someone can enlighten me.

>
> > In pursuit of cleaner shifting, I tried a new (to me) approach to
> > adjusting the rear derailleur shift wire tension. Here are the steps
> > I followed:

>
> > 1. Remove chain.
> > 2. Disconnect rear derailleur shift wire.
> > 2. Verify proper alignment of derailleur hanger.
> > 3. Verify outer limit screw set so that jockey pulley is directly
> > underneath smallest sprocket.
> > 4. Verify inner limit screw set so that jockey pulley is very slightly
> > inboard of largest sprocket when the parallelogram is deformed to the
> > inner limit by hand.
> > 5. Verify shifter control is set for smallest rear sprocket.
> > 6. Using fourth hand tool, tension shift wire and reattach to
> > derailleur.
> > 7. Verify jockey pulley is still directly under the smallest sprocket.
> > 8. Using the shifter, shift the derailleur one click; verify jockey
> > pulley is directly under next-smallest sprocket; adjust shift wire
> > tension as necessary.
> > 9. Using the shifter, shift the derailleur to the next-largest or
> > largest sprocket; check position of jockey pulley.

>
> > Now for the curious part. At this point the jockey pulley does not
> > line up directly underneath the selected sprocket, but slightly
> > outboard. So I've shifted over 8 (or 9) clicks starting from perfect
> > alignment on the smallest or next-smallest sprocket, and the alignment
> > is now not perfect.

>
> > It seems like if the tension is set to put the pulley directly under
> > the largest sprocket, you won't be able to shift onto the smaller
> > ones, and if it's set to put the pulley directly under the smaller
> > sprockets you won't get a clean shift onto the larger ones.

>
> > Can you explain why the shifter works this way?

>
> No, it sounds like an interesting phenomenon. Perhaps some kind of
> "cosine error" or something.
>
> > Can you describe how to judge the correct shift wire tension using
> > this approach?

>
> I just set the wire tension about right and then ride the bike. If it
> seems reluctant to change to smaller or larger sprockets, loosen or
> tighten the wire a little bit.
>
> This is particularly easy to do because my bike has barrel-bolt
> adjusters generously provided all over the place, so you can fine-tune
> it while you're riding.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


Right, that's how I've been doing it, too. I was trying to come up
with another way that would be quick and give repeatable results, so I
don't need to futz with the tension while riding and don't need to
worry about disconnecting the shift wire when maintenance needs call
for it.

Jeff
 
L

Lou Holtman

Guest
Jeff Travis wrote:
> Greetings --
>
> I've discovered something curious about the indexed shifting on my
> bike (Campag 10-speed), and am hoping someone can enlighten me.
>
> In pursuit of cleaner shifting, I tried a new (to me) approach to
> adjusting the rear derailleur shift wire tension. Here are the steps
> I followed:
>
> 1. Remove chain.
> 2. Disconnect rear derailleur shift wire.
> 2. Verify proper alignment of derailleur hanger.
> 3. Verify outer limit screw set so that jockey pulley is directly
> underneath smallest sprocket.
> 4. Verify inner limit screw set so that jockey pulley is very slightly
> inboard of largest sprocket when the parallelogram is deformed to the
> inner limit by hand.
> 5. Verify shifter control is set for smallest rear sprocket.
> 6. Using fourth hand tool, tension shift wire and reattach to
> derailleur.
> 7. Verify jockey pulley is still directly under the smallest sprocket.
> 8. Using the shifter, shift the derailleur one click; verify jockey
> pulley is directly under next-smallest sprocket; adjust shift wire
> tension as necessary.
> 9. Using the shifter, shift the derailleur to the next-largest or
> largest sprocket; check position of jockey pulley.
>
> Now for the curious part. At this point the jockey pulley does not
> line up directly underneath the selected sprocket, but slightly
> outboard. So I've shifted over 8 (or 9) clicks starting from perfect
> alignment on the smallest or next-smallest sprocket, and the alignment
> is now not perfect.
>
> It seems like if the tension is set to put the pulley directly under
> the largest sprocket, you won't be able to shift onto the smaller
> ones, and if it's set to put the pulley directly under the smaller
> sprockets you won't get a clean shift onto the larger ones.
>
> Can you explain why the shifter works this way? Can you describe how
> to judge the correct shift wire tension using this approach?
>
> Thanks much,
>
> Jeff Travis
>



If
- derailleur hanger is straight,
- your rear wheel is positioned correct in the frame,
- the outer cable isn't to short,
- the upper pulley has no excessive radial play,
- no excessive play in the RD pivots,
- the inner wire is connected correct to the RD body,
- no mismatching Campy and Shimano
- no sticky inner wire in outer cable or BB cable guide,
- the outer cable is firmly set in the cable stops,

then the only thing you have to do is align the upper pulley under a cog
with the shifter in the corresponding clickposition. That's it.

Lou
--
Posted by news://news.nb.nu (http://www.nb.nu)
 
H

Hank Wirtz

Guest
On Oct 24, 9:32 am, Jeff Travis <[email protected]> wrote:
> Greetings --
>
> I've discovered something curious about the indexed shifting on my
> bike (Campag 10-speed), and am hoping someone can enlighten me.
>
> In pursuit of cleaner shifting, I tried a new (to me) approach to
> adjusting the rear derailleur shift wire tension. Here are the steps
> I followed:
>
> 1. Remove chain.
> 2. Disconnect rear derailleur shift wire.
> 2. Verify proper alignment of derailleur hanger.
> 3. Verify outer limit screw set so that jockey pulley is directly
> underneath smallest sprocket.
> 4. Verify inner limit screw set so that jockey pulley is very slightly
> inboard of largest sprocket when the parallelogram is deformed to the
> inner limit by hand.
> 5. Verify shifter control is set for smallest rear sprocket.
> 6. Using fourth hand tool, tension shift wire and reattach to
> derailleur.
> 7. Verify jockey pulley is still directly under the smallest sprocket.
> 8. Using the shifter, shift the derailleur one click; verify jockey
> pulley is directly under next-smallest sprocket; adjust shift wire
> tension as necessary.
> 9. Using the shifter, shift the derailleur to the next-largest or
> largest sprocket; check position of jockey pulley.
>
> Now for the curious part. At this point the jockey pulley does not
> line up directly underneath the selected sprocket, but slightly
> outboard. So I've shifted over 8 (or 9) clicks starting from perfect
> alignment on the smallest or next-smallest sprocket, and the alignment
> is now not perfect.
>
> It seems like if the tension is set to put the pulley directly under
> the largest sprocket, you won't be able to shift onto the smaller
> ones, and if it's set to put the pulley directly under the smaller
> sprockets you won't get a clean shift onto the larger ones.
>
> Can you explain why the shifter works this way? Can you describe how
> to judge the correct shift wire tension using this approach?
>
> Thanks much,
>
> Jeff Travis


You should only worry about centering it under the centermost cogs.
That way, any disparity is halved by the time you reach either end of
the cassette. On a 10-speed system, that's the 5th or 6th cogs.
 
A

A Muzi

Guest
Jeff Travis wrote:
> I've discovered something curious about the indexed shifting on my
> bike (Campag 10-speed), and am hoping someone can enlighten me.
>
> In pursuit of cleaner shifting, I tried a new (to me) approach to
> adjusting the rear derailleur shift wire tension. Here are the steps
> I followed:
>
> 1. Remove chain.
> 2. Disconnect rear derailleur shift wire.
> 2. Verify proper alignment of derailleur hanger.
> 3. Verify outer limit screw set so that jockey pulley is directly
> underneath smallest sprocket.
> 4. Verify inner limit screw set so that jockey pulley is very slightly
> inboard of largest sprocket when the parallelogram is deformed to the
> inner limit by hand.
> 5. Verify shifter control is set for smallest rear sprocket.
> 6. Using fourth hand tool, tension shift wire and reattach to
> derailleur.
> 7. Verify jockey pulley is still directly under the smallest sprocket.
> 8. Using the shifter, shift the derailleur one click; verify jockey
> pulley is directly under next-smallest sprocket; adjust shift wire
> tension as necessary.
> 9. Using the shifter, shift the derailleur to the next-largest or
> largest sprocket; check position of jockey pulley.
>
> Now for the curious part. At this point the jockey pulley does not
> line up directly underneath the selected sprocket, but slightly
> outboard. So I've shifted over 8 (or 9) clicks starting from perfect
> alignment on the smallest or next-smallest sprocket, and the alignment
> is now not perfect.
>
> It seems like if the tension is set to put the pulley directly under
> the largest sprocket, you won't be able to shift onto the smaller
> ones, and if it's set to put the pulley directly under the smaller
> sprockets you won't get a clean shift onto the larger ones.
>
> Can you explain why the shifter works this way? Can you describe how
> to judge the correct shift wire tension using this approach?


ensure the gear wire is on the inside of the anchor bolt not the
outside. Check against the drawing in your Campagnolo manual.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
 
On Oct 24, 11:21 am, Hank Wirtz <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Oct 24, 9:32 am, Jeff Travis <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > In pursuit of cleaner shifting, I tried a new (to me) approach to
> > adjusting the rear derailleur shift wire tension. Here are the steps
> > I followed:

>
> > 1. Remove chain.
> > 2. Disconnect rear derailleur shift wire.
> > 2. Verify proper alignment of derailleur hanger.
> > 3. Verify outer limit screw set so that jockey pulley is directly
> > underneath smallest sprocket.
> > 4. Verify inner limit screw set so that jockey pulley is very slightly
> > inboard of largest sprocket when the parallelogram is deformed to the
> > inner limit by hand.
> > 5. Verify shifter control is set for smallest rear sprocket.
> > 6. Using fourth hand tool, tension shift wire and reattach to
> > derailleur.
> > 7. Verify jockey pulley is still directly under the smallest sprocket.
> > 8. Using the shifter, shift the derailleur one click; verify jockey
> > pulley is directly under next-smallest sprocket; adjust shift wire
> > tension as necessary.
> > 9. Using the shifter, shift the derailleur to the next-largest or
> > largest sprocket; check position of jockey pulley.

>
> > Now for the curious part. At this point the jockey pulley does not
> > line up directly underneath the selected sprocket, but slightly
> > outboard. So I've shifted over 8 (or 9) clicks starting from perfect
> > alignment on the smallest or next-smallest sprocket, and the alignment
> > is now not perfect.

>
> > It seems like if the tension is set to put the pulley directly under
> > the largest sprocket, you won't be able to shift onto the smaller
> > ones, and if it's set to put the pulley directly under the smaller
> > sprockets you won't get a clean shift onto the larger ones.

>
> > Can you explain why the shifter works this way? Can you describe how
> > to judge the correct shift wire tension using this approach?

>
> You should only worry about centering it under the centermost cogs.
> That way, any disparity is halved by the time you reach either end of
> the cassette. On a 10-speed system, that's the 5th or 6th cogs.- Hide quoted text -


I've found it is quicker and easier to do it the way he describes and
then adjust the cable tension with barrel adjusters.
 
J

Jeff Travis

Guest
On Oct 24, 2:49 pm, A Muzi <[email protected]> wrote:
> Jeff Travis wrote:
> > I've discovered something curious about the indexed shifting on my
> > bike (Campag 10-speed), and am hoping someone can enlighten me.

>
> > In pursuit of cleaner shifting, I tried a new (to me) approach to
> > adjusting the rear derailleur shift wire tension. Here are the steps
> > I followed:

>
> > 1. Remove chain.
> > 2. Disconnect rear derailleur shift wire.
> > 2. Verify proper alignment of derailleur hanger.
> > 3. Verify outer limit screw set so that jockey pulley is directly
> > underneath smallest sprocket.
> > 4. Verify inner limit screw set so that jockey pulley is very slightly
> > inboard of largest sprocket when the parallelogram is deformed to the
> > inner limit by hand.
> > 5. Verify shifter control is set for smallest rear sprocket.
> > 6. Using fourth hand tool, tension shift wire and reattach to
> > derailleur.
> > 7. Verify jockey pulley is still directly under the smallest sprocket.
> > 8. Using the shifter, shift the derailleur one click; verify jockey
> > pulley is directly under next-smallest sprocket; adjust shift wire
> > tension as necessary.
> > 9. Using the shifter, shift the derailleur to the next-largest or
> > largest sprocket; check position of jockey pulley.

>
> > Now for the curious part. At this point the jockey pulley does not
> > line up directly underneath the selected sprocket, but slightly
> > outboard. So I've shifted over 8 (or 9) clicks starting from perfect
> > alignment on the smallest or next-smallest sprocket, and the alignment
> > is now not perfect.

>
> > It seems like if the tension is set to put the pulley directly under
> > the largest sprocket, you won't be able to shift onto the smaller
> > ones, and if it's set to put the pulley directly under the smaller
> > sprockets you won't get a clean shift onto the larger ones.

>
> > Can you explain why the shifter works this way? Can you describe how
> > to judge the correct shift wire tension using this approach?

>
> ensure the gear wire is on the inside of the anchor bolt not the
> outside. Check against the drawing in your Campagnolo manual.
> --
> Andrew Muziwww.yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


Yes it is. In checking the Record rear derailleur instruction sheet:

http://www.campagnolo.com/pdf/7225195_Rear_derailleur.pdf

I notice on p. 11 that it is recommended to align the jockey pulley
perfectly with the fourth-smallest sprocket. There is an accompanying
rear view of the derailleur and the cassette with the chain removed.
This is not quite splitting the difference, as Hank suggested, but
close.

When all else fails, read the directions . . .

I still wonder why the pulley needs to line up perfectly with this one
sprocket only, and why the indexing is not designed to line the pulley
up perfectly with all sprockets.

Thanks all for your input!

Jeff
 
Q

Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com

Guest
On Oct 24, 10:32 am, Jeff Travis <[email protected]> wrote:
> Greetings --
>
> I've discovered something curious about the indexed shifting on my
> bike (Campag 10-speed), and am hoping someone can enlighten me.
>
> In pursuit of cleaner shifting, I tried a new (to me) approach to
> adjusting the rear derailleur shift wire tension. Here are the steps
> I followed:
>
> 1. Remove chain.
> 2. Disconnect rear derailleur shift wire.
> 2. Verify proper alignment of derailleur hanger.
> 3. Verify outer limit screw set so that jockey pulley is directly
> underneath smallest sprocket.
> 4. Verify inner limit screw set so that jockey pulley is very slightly
> inboard of largest sprocket when the parallelogram is deformed to the
> inner limit by hand.
> 5. Verify shifter control is set for smallest rear sprocket.
> 6. Using fourth hand tool, tension shift wire and reattach to
> derailleur.
> 7. Verify jockey pulley is still directly under the smallest sprocket.
> 8. Using the shifter, shift the derailleur one click; verify jockey
> pulley is directly under next-smallest sprocket; adjust shift wire
> tension as necessary.
> 9. Using the shifter, shift the derailleur to the next-largest or
> largest sprocket; check position of jockey pulley.
>
> Now for the curious part. At this point the jockey pulley does not
> line up directly underneath the selected sprocket, but slightly
> outboard. So I've shifted over 8 (or 9) clicks starting from perfect
> alignment on the smallest or next-smallest sprocket, and the alignment
> is now not perfect.


if you push the thumb button w/o it clicking, does the pulley center?
If so, drag in der housing, dirty under BB guide or busted EC-RE-111.
>
> It seems like if the tension is set to put the pulley directly under
> the largest sprocket, you won't be able to shift onto the smaller
> ones, and if it's set to put the pulley directly under the smaller
> sprockets you won't get a clean shift onto the larger ones.
>
> Can you explain why the shifter works this way? Can you describe how
> to judge the correct shift wire tension using this approach?
>
> Thanks much,
>
> Jeff Travis
 
J

Jeff Travis

Guest
On Oct 24, 3:20 pm, "Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> On Oct 24, 10:32 am, Jeff Travis <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Greetings --

>
> > I've discovered something curious about the indexed shifting on my
> > bike (Campag 10-speed), and am hoping someone can enlighten me.

>
> > In pursuit of cleaner shifting, I tried a new (to me) approach to
> > adjusting the rear derailleur shift wire tension. Here are the steps
> > I followed:

>
> > 1. Remove chain.
> > 2. Disconnect rear derailleur shift wire.
> > 2. Verify proper alignment of derailleur hanger.
> > 3. Verify outer limit screw set so that jockey pulley is directly
> > underneath smallest sprocket.
> > 4. Verify inner limit screw set so that jockey pulley is very slightly
> > inboard of largest sprocket when the parallelogram is deformed to the
> > inner limit by hand.
> > 5. Verify shifter control is set for smallest rear sprocket.
> > 6. Using fourth hand tool, tension shift wire and reattach to
> > derailleur.
> > 7. Verify jockey pulley is still directly under the smallest sprocket.
> > 8. Using the shifter, shift the derailleur one click; verify jockey
> > pulley is directly under next-smallest sprocket; adjust shift wire
> > tension as necessary.
> > 9. Using the shifter, shift the derailleur to the next-largest or
> > largest sprocket; check position of jockey pulley.

>
> > Now for the curious part. At this point the jockey pulley does not
> > line up directly underneath the selected sprocket, but slightly
> > outboard. So I've shifted over 8 (or 9) clicks starting from perfect
> > alignment on the smallest or next-smallest sprocket, and the alignment
> > is now not perfect.

>
> if you push the thumb button w/o it clicking, does the pulley center?
> If so, drag in der housing, dirty under BB guide or busted EC-RE-111.


Haven't tried this specific test. I was assuming that a 9 clicks is 9
clicks, IOW the index gear, and hence the wire and the derailleur
should be in a known position.

Jeff

> > It seems like if the tension is set to put the pulley directly under
> > the largest sprocket, you won't be able to shift onto the smaller
> > ones, and if it's set to put the pulley directly under the smaller
> > sprockets you won't get a clean shift onto the larger ones.

>
> > Can you explain why the shifter works this way? Can you describe how
> > to judge the correct shift wire tension using this approach?

>
> > Thanks much,

>
> > Jeff Travis- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
 
On Oct 24, 3:17 pm, Jeff Travis <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Oct 24, 2:49 pm, A Muzi <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Jeff Travis wrote:
> > > I've discovered something curious about the indexed shifting on my
> > > bike (Campag 10-speed), and am hoping someone can enlighten me.

>
> > > In pursuit of cleaner shifting, I tried a new (to me) approach to
> > > adjusting the rear derailleur shift wire tension. Here are the steps
> > > I followed:

>
> > > 1. Remove chain.
> > > 2. Disconnect rear derailleur shift wire.
> > > 2. Verify proper alignment of derailleur hanger.
> > > 3. Verify outer limit screw set so that jockey pulley is directly
> > > underneath smallest sprocket.
> > > 4. Verify inner limit screw set so that jockey pulley is very slightly
> > > inboard of largest sprocket when the parallelogram is deformed to the
> > > inner limit by hand.
> > > 5. Verify shifter control is set for smallest rear sprocket.
> > > 6. Using fourth hand tool, tension shift wire and reattach to
> > > derailleur.
> > > 7. Verify jockey pulley is still directly under the smallest sprocket.
> > > 8. Using the shifter, shift the derailleur one click; verify jockey
> > > pulley is directly under next-smallest sprocket; adjust shift wire
> > > tension as necessary.
> > > 9. Using the shifter, shift the derailleur to the next-largest or
> > > largest sprocket; check position of jockey pulley.

>
> > > Now for the curious part. At this point the jockey pulley does not
> > > line up directly underneath the selected sprocket, but slightly
> > > outboard. So I've shifted over 8 (or 9) clicks starting from perfect
> > > alignment on the smallest or next-smallest sprocket, and the alignment
> > > is now not perfect.

>
> > > It seems like if the tension is set to put the pulley directly under
> > > the largest sprocket, you won't be able to shift onto the smaller
> > > ones, and if it's set to put the pulley directly under the smaller
> > > sprockets you won't get a clean shift onto the larger ones.

>
> > > Can you explain why the shifter works this way? Can you describe how
> > > to judge the correct shift wire tension using this approach?

>
> > ensure the gear wire is on the inside of the anchor bolt not the
> > outside. Check against the drawing in your Campagnolo manual.
> > --
> > Andrew Muziwww.yellowjersey.org
> > Open every day since 1 April, 1971- Hide quoted text -

>
> > - Show quoted text -

>
> Yes it is. In checking the Record rear derailleur instruction sheet:
>
> http://www.campagnolo.com/pdf/7225195_Rear_derailleur.pdf
>
> I notice on p. 11 that it is recommended to align the jockey pulley
> perfectly with the fourth-smallest sprocket. There is an accompanying
> rear view of the derailleur and the cassette with the chain removed.
> This is not quite splitting the difference, as Hank suggested, but
> close.
>
> When all else fails, read the directions . . .
>
> I still wonder why the pulley needs to line up perfectly with this one
> sprocket only, and why the indexing is not designed to line the pulley
> up perfectly with all sprockets.
>
> Thanks all for your input!
>
> Jeff


Lining up with all of the sprockets would require a very rigid
mechanism with zero play in the pivots. In other words heavy,
expensive, hard to adjust, sensitive to wear, and since cable routing
is just a little bit different from bike to bike it would never be
perfect. Instead, the system is designed to tolerate a certain amount
of slop. Lining up the tension with one of the middle sprockets
allows the total position error from this play to be half as much as
it would be working from one end.
 
Q

Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com

Guest
On Oct 24, 1:49 pm, Jeff Travis <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Oct 24, 3:20 pm, "Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com"
>
>
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On Oct 24, 10:32 am, Jeff Travis <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> > > Greetings --

>
> > > I've discovered something curious about the indexed shifting on my
> > > bike (Campag 10-speed), and am hoping someone can enlighten me.

>
> > > In pursuit of cleaner shifting, I tried a new (to me) approach to
> > > adjusting the rear derailleur shift wire tension. Here are the steps
> > > I followed:

>
> > > 1. Remove chain.
> > > 2. Disconnect rear derailleur shift wire.
> > > 2. Verify proper alignment of derailleur hanger.
> > > 3. Verify outer limit screw set so that jockey pulley is directly
> > > underneath smallest sprocket.
> > > 4. Verify inner limit screw set so that jockey pulley is very slightly
> > > inboard of largest sprocket when the parallelogram is deformed to the
> > > inner limit by hand.
> > > 5. Verify shifter control is set for smallest rear sprocket.
> > > 6. Using fourth hand tool, tension shift wire and reattach to
> > > derailleur.
> > > 7. Verify jockey pulley is still directly under the smallest sprocket.
> > > 8. Using the shifter, shift the derailleur one click; verify jockey
> > > pulley is directly under next-smallest sprocket; adjust shift wire
> > > tension as necessary.
> > > 9. Using the shifter, shift the derailleur to the next-largest or
> > > largest sprocket; check position of jockey pulley.

>
> > > Now for the curious part. At this point the jockey pulley does not
> > > line up directly underneath the selected sprocket, but slightly
> > > outboard. So I've shifted over 8 (or 9) clicks starting from perfect
> > > alignment on the smallest or next-smallest sprocket, and the alignment
> > > is now not perfect.

>
> > if you push the thumb button w/o it clicking, does the pulley center?
> > If so, drag in der housing, dirty under BB guide or busted EC-RE-111.

>
> Haven't tried this specific test. I was assuming that a 9 clicks is 9
> clicks, IOW the index gear, and hence the wire and the derailleur
> should be in a known position.
>
> Jeff
>
> > > It seems like if the tension is set to put the pulley directly under
> > > the largest sprocket, you won't be able to shift onto the smaller
> > > ones, and if it's set to put the pulley directly under the smaller
> > > sprockets you won't get a clean shift onto the larger ones.

>
> > > Can you explain why the shifter works this way? Can you describe how
> > > to judge the correct shift wire tension using this approach?

>
> > > Thanks much,

>
> > > Jeff Travis- Hide quoted text -

>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

>
> > - Show quoted text -


What I'm saying is that the shifter overshifts the RD, to get the
chain onto the next cog then centers..why the slots ion the ERGO lever
are longer than the inserts from the spring carrier. If the Rd is not
centering, something is preventing it from doing so..like cable/
housing/below BB guide or the spring carrier itself.
 
J

Jasper Janssen

Guest
On Wed, 24 Oct 2007 12:17:49 -0700, Jeff Travis <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Yes it is. In checking the Record rear derailleur instruction sheet:
>
>http://www.campagnolo.com/pdf/7225195_Rear_derailleur.pdf
>
>I notice on p. 11 that it is recommended to align the jockey pulley
>perfectly with the fourth-smallest sprocket. There is an accompanying
>rear view of the derailleur and the cassette with the chain removed.
>This is not quite splitting the difference, as Hank suggested, but
>close.
>
>When all else fails, read the directions . . .
>
>I still wonder why the pulley needs to line up perfectly with this one
>sprocket only, and why the indexing is not designed to line the pulley
>up perfectly with all sprockets.
>
>Thanks all for your input!


Keep in mind that the jockey wheel, and thus the chain, floats 1 or 2 mm
side-to-side, to acommodate indexing properly. Make sure that you're
seeing the position that's central in the float, or two one side or other,
at all cogs, otherwise that will introduce a change as on the outer cogs,
the chain pulls the jockey wheel inward.

Jasper
 
P

Paul Kopit

Guest
On Mon, 29 Oct 2007 00:40:00 GMT, Jasper Janssen <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Keep in mind that the jockey wheel, and thus the chain, floats 1 or 2 mm
>side-to-side, to acommodate indexing properly.


Although it might help indexing properly, I believe the jockey pulley
floats so that you can shift the derailleur w/o pedaling.
 
J

JG

Guest
Your first assumption is that perfect alignment is desirable. Is it?
Perhaps the chainwheels pull the chain towards the center of the
cassette, and the pulleys should be slightly outboard to compensate...

JG
 
B

Bill Sornson

Guest
Paul Kopit wrote:
> On Mon, 29 Oct 2007 00:40:00 GMT, Jasper Janssen <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> Keep in mind that the jockey wheel, and thus the chain, floats 1 or
>> 2 mm side-to-side, to acommodate indexing properly.

>
> Although it might help indexing properly, I believe the jockey pulley
> floats so that you can shift the derailleur w/o pedaling.


??? No way. ???
 
J

Jeff Travis

Guest
On Oct 24, 2:20 pm, "Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> On Oct 24, 10:32 am, Jeff Travis <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Greetings --

>
> > I've discovered something curious about the indexed shifting on my
> > bike (Campag 10-speed), and am hoping someone can enlighten me.

>
> > In pursuit of cleaner shifting, I tried a new (to me) approach to
> > adjusting the rear derailleur shift wire tension. Here are the steps
> > I followed:

>
> > 1. Remove chain.
> > 2. Disconnect rear derailleur shift wire.
> > 2. Verify proper alignment of derailleur hanger.
> > 3. Verify outer limit screw set so that jockey pulley is directly
> > underneath smallest sprocket.
> > 4. Verify inner limit screw set so that jockey pulley is very slightly
> > inboard of largest sprocket when the parallelogram is deformed to the
> > inner limit by hand.
> > 5. Verify shifter control is set for smallest rear sprocket.
> > 6. Using fourth hand tool, tension shift wire and reattach to
> > derailleur.
> > 7. Verify jockey pulley is still directly under the smallest sprocket.
> > 8. Using the shifter, shift the derailleur one click; verify jockey
> > pulley is directly under next-smallest sprocket; adjust shift wire
> > tension as necessary.
> > 9. Using the shifter, shift the derailleur to the next-largest or
> > largest sprocket; check position of jockey pulley.

>
> > Now for the curious part. At this point the jockey pulley does not
> > line up directly underneath the selected sprocket, but slightly
> > outboard. So I've shifted over 8 (or 9) clicks starting from perfect
> > alignment on the smallest or next-smallest sprocket, and the alignment
> > is now not perfect.

>
> if you push the thumb button w/o it clicking, does the pulley center?
> If so, drag in der housing, dirty under BB guide or busted EC-RE-111.
>
> - Show quoted text -


I finally tried the test you suggested, and when I lightly touched the
thumb lever after a downshift the pulleys centered under the selected
cog. This was after replacing all the housing, ferrules, and inner
wires (which I was going to do anyway), so I guess that leaves the g-
spring carrier as the prime suspect.

So the bottom line is that I now know how to correctly set the tension
before the chain is installed and not have to futz with it any
further. My shifter needs overhaul, but I've done that before.

Thanks for your help, Peter!

Jeff
 
P

Pete Biggs

Guest
Jeff Travis wrote:
> On Oct 24, 2:20 pm, "Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Oct 24, 10:32 am, Jeff Travis <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Greetings --

>>
>>> I've discovered something curious about the indexed shifting on my
>>> bike (Campag 10-speed), and am hoping someone can enlighten me.

>>
>>> In pursuit of cleaner shifting, I tried a new (to me) approach to
>>> adjusting the rear derailleur shift wire tension. Here are the
>>> steps I followed:

>>
>>> 1. Remove chain.
>>> 2. Disconnect rear derailleur shift wire.
>>> 2. Verify proper alignment of derailleur hanger.
>>> 3. Verify outer limit screw set so that jockey pulley is directly
>>> underneath smallest sprocket.
>>> 4. Verify inner limit screw set so that jockey pulley is very
>>> slightly inboard of largest sprocket when the parallelogram is
>>> deformed to the inner limit by hand.
>>> 5. Verify shifter control is set for smallest rear sprocket.
>>> 6. Using fourth hand tool, tension shift wire and reattach to
>>> derailleur.
>>> 7. Verify jockey pulley is still directly under the smallest
>>> sprocket.
>>> 8. Using the shifter, shift the derailleur one click; verify jockey
>>> pulley is directly under next-smallest sprocket; adjust shift wire
>>> tension as necessary.
>>> 9. Using the shifter, shift the derailleur to the next-largest or
>>> largest sprocket; check position of jockey pulley.

>>
>>> Now for the curious part. At this point the jockey pulley does not
>>> line up directly underneath the selected sprocket, but slightly
>>> outboard. So I've shifted over 8 (or 9) clicks starting from
>>> perfect alignment on the smallest or next-smallest sprocket, and
>>> the alignment is now not perfect.

>>
>> if you push the thumb button w/o it clicking, does the pulley center?
>> If so, drag in der housing, dirty under BB guide or busted EC-RE-111.


> I finally tried the test you suggested, and when I lightly touched the
> thumb lever after a downshift the pulleys centered under the selected
> cog.


That happens with all Ergos of this type, in my experience, from new.
Servicing doesn't fix it.

~PB
 

Similar threads