Indurain and Doping

B. Lafferty said:

"Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Don't underestimate the performance enhancing powers of a good marmalade
sandwich. Obree and Paddington Bear cannot be wrong!

Can you please explain what Marmite is?

Marmite is the British equivalent of thermite.
Vegemite is the Australian version manufactured under licence.

Quoted message said:

Just so I understand your logic (and I use that term loosely) here:
1) because Padilla's estimates of the power of recent hour record
holders suggest that they generated more power than Merckx, and
...
1) many of the hour record holders since Merckx must have doped, and
...
Andy Coggan (who probably outscored Brian on the LSAT exam)

Ah-ha! Exceeding the Lafferty Line ... proof that you
doped for the LSAT.

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>,

(') said:

More specifically, in the case with
Boardman and Obree; we can generally agree that Obree, given his simple
and relatively poor background certainly did not dope for his 2 Hour
records- yet he did not work out in the pro-peleton,

That's a canard. Obree was sacked from his team because he refused to
dope. He's very much an individualist, but the reason he 'didn't work
out' was because his director sportif wanted to deduct a substantial
chunk of Obree's salary to pay for dope which he (Obree) didn't want and
didn't see why he should pay for.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
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//____\__||___|_// \|: C++ IS an object oriented programming language.
\__/ ~~~~~~~~~ \__/ Citroen 2cv6 IS a four door family saloon.

That's not what I heard. What are your sources ?

Simon Brooke said:

Quoted message said:

The table quoted in the OP shows Obree the lowest powered, by a

substantial margin; but I wouldn't be surprised if his power output were
really still lower. Obree isn't physically exceptional, as a person.
He's mentally exceptional. He will put himself through torture other
people simply wouldn't, and he will contort his body into positions
other people would find too uncomfortable to maintain; and he will drive
himself to his absolute physical limits. But he doesn't give the
impression, the way lots of other cyclists do, of extreme physical
strength.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; First they came for the asylum seekers,
;; and I did not speak out because I was not an asylum seeker.
;; Then they came for the gypsies,
;; and I did not speak out because I was not a gypsy...
;; Pastor Martin Niemöller, translated by Michael Howard.

That's pretty much what I was getting at in my original post, not just
Obree but anyone, you can't say an aberation of power/weight ratio
means doping.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

B. Lafferty said:

are you and your bud
Eddie Coyle working on your press release for down the road when more
continues to come out about Sir Lance and reality bites you both on the
butt? Maybe you can spin it along with that great trainer Chris
Carmichael.
Hopefully none of you will have to become gym teachers.

Just so I understand your logic (and I use that term loosely) here:

1) because Padilla's estimates of the power of recent hour record
holders suggest that they generated more power than Merckx, and

2) because I did my PhD under someone who subsequently tested Armstrong
on various occasions and wrote a scientific article about his findings,

then:

1) many of the hour record holders since Merckx must have doped, and

2) my reputation will suffer when (if) it is ultimately shown that
Armstrong doped.

We've already covered the fallacies underlying your 1 -> 1 and 2 -> 2
links, but there's also the fact that you're guilty of contradicting
yourself. That is, if conclusion #1 and #2 are correct, then postulate
#1 can't be, because Padilla's estimates aren't to be trusted since he
worked with Indurain, who based on your conclusion #1 is a doper. Ergo,
conclusions #1 and #2 can't both be correct.

Andy Coggan (who probably outscored Brian on the LSAT exam)

I posted what was sent to me from another forum and have only expressed one
opinion as to it in this thread. As to your conclusions; (1) most probably;
(2) doubtful, but you will have to eat some Vayer here at rbr.

BTW, as Dr. Dope points out:
Fuentes, who added that his treatments also concerned other sports than
cycling (football, tennis, athletics), said that it was possible to ride the
Tour de France without "medical" help, but not at that speed. "You just
can't ride four of these mountain stages successively at that speed, it's
very harmful," he said, adding that in his opinion it was more dangerous for
a cyclist to start the Tour de France with a hematocrit level of 31 percent,
than one of 51 percent - even though this meant that the rider would be
excluded from competition.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/jul06/jul06news4

in message <[email hidden]>, B.

Lafferty (') said:

"Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Stu Fleming

(') said:

B. Lafferty wrote:

> radical position he was able to set an hour record. One can only
> conclude that Indurain, Rominger and Boardman all employeed some
> type of hematocrit manipulation when setting their records.

Rominger, yes.
Indurain and Boardman, no.
Obree, certainly not.

Don't underestimate the performance enhancing powers of a good
marmalade sandwich. Obree and Paddington Bear cannot be wrong!

Can you please explain what Marmite is?

A strongly flavoured, dark coloured savoury comestible loved by the
British and hated by everyone else: the British equivalent of miso soup,
or gravadlax.

And with no performance enhancing powers at all, unlike marmalade.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

[ This .sig subject to change without notice ]

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>,

(') said:

More specifically, in the case with
Boardman and Obree; we can generally agree that Obree, given his simple
and relatively poor background certainly did not dope for his 2 Hour
records- yet he did not work out in the pro-peleton,

That's a canard. Obree was sacked from his team because he refused to
dope. He's very much an individualist, but the reason he 'didn't work
out' was because his director sportif wanted to deduct a substantial
chunk of Obree's salary to pay for dope which he (Obree) didn't want and
didn't see why he should pay for.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
.::;===r==\
/ /___||___\____
//==\- ||- | /__\( MS Windows IS an operating environment.
//____\__||___|_// \|: C++ IS an object oriented programming language.
\__/ ~~~~~~~~~ \__/ Citroen 2cv6 IS a four door family saloon.

That's not what I heard. What are your sources ?

IIRC, Obree stated that in either his book or an interview subsequent to the
book being published.

"Stu Fleming" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

lose) and that he used a drug to help reduce bone density. While that
sounds ridiculous, Boardman was forced to retire due to a mysterious
osteoporosis-like condition; men are much less likely to develop
osteoporosis, and more or less never before 60 or 70.

Yes, this was in the back of my mind when I posted. But you still have to
consider that, at the time of his retirement, Boardman would have trained
intensively for nearly 20 years on a track regime. The suggestion there
is that increased blood acidity as a result leeched calcium from his
bones.

Nitpicking here, but he was born in 1968, retired in 1999. Even if he
maintained a track regime until his retirement, you're saying he trained
intensively sufficient to cause blood acidity to leech calcium from his
bones before he reached puberty.

Quoted message said:

That's not what I heard. What are your sources ?

Cycle Sport / Cycling Weekly c 1994.
That's precisely the story I heard.

B. Lafferty said:

"Razorback" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

B. Lafferty:
Result is simply distance and time. He uses a number of other factors to
compute watts per kg.

You're trying to change the subject. The subject is not how watts per
kg are computed, it's whether someone doped, and what the evidence is.
You're claiming that doping is responsible for Indurain's wattage.
Maybe Indurain was just a REALLY GOOD CYCLIST and that's why he
produced high wattage.

Be a good boy, and I'll send the tooth fairy to your house tonight.

It's all dope?

Some guys don't train harder than others? Nobody benefits from better genetics?
No rider pushes himself further in a race?

Ron

Stu Fleming said:

Quoted message said:

That's not what I heard. What are your sources ?

Cycle Sport / Cycling Weekly c 1994.
That's precisely the story I heard.

I recall reading the same sources, and as I recall, Obree felt the
teams training regime conflicted with his own training methods; I think
he deliberatly missed 2 training sessions after which he was sacked
from the team. Nothing about doping.

Carl Sundquist said:

">
Nitpicking here, but he was born in 1968, retired in 1999. Even if he
maintained a track regime until his retirement, you're saying he trained
intensively sufficient to cause blood acidity to leech calcium from his
bones before he reached puberty.

Retired at 31 ? Lucky [censored]. Why do I have to work ?

B. Lafferty said:

Quoted message said:

Don't underestimate the performance enhancing powers of a good marmalade
sandwich. Obree and Paddington Bear cannot be wrong!

Can you please explain what Marmite is?

It's the original British WMD, invented during the Great War
(WW I to you) to counter the Boche's mustard gas and phosgene.

The British control of Marmite mines in their dependencies
was partially responsible for the prolongation of their empire
(Ignore all that guff about sea power.) However, Italian
intelligence has recently learned that Kim Jong Il sought
significant quantities of Marmite from Africa.

Stu Fleming said:

Quoted message said:

lose) and that he used a drug to help reduce bone density. While that
sounds ridiculous, Boardman was forced to retire due to a mysterious
osteoporosis-like condition; men are much less likely to develop
osteoporosis, and more or less never before 60 or 70.

Yes, this was in the back of my mind when I posted. But you still have
to consider that, at the time of his retirement, Boardman would have
trained intensively for nearly 20 years on a track regime. The
suggestion there is that increased blood acidity as a result leeched
calcium from his bones.

Absent other evidence, I don't think this is conclusive. From what I've
read, on a hot day, a cyclist can lose as much as 200mg of calcium per
hour from sweat alone. Take a pro, who trains about 6 hours or so per
day, and that's 1200mg. Baseline RDA is 1000mg. How many elite
cyclists do you know who make sure they get 2200mg of calcium every day?

Even if Boardman got the RDA every day, he was suffering a deficit of
1200mg of calcium, day in and day out. That comes from *somewhere*.

--
Chris BeHanna
'03 Specialized Allez Elite 27
'04 Specialized Hardrock Pro Disc

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"Chris BeHanna" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Stu Fleming said:

Quoted message said:

lose) and that he used a drug to help reduce bone density. While that
sounds ridiculous, Boardman was forced to retire due to a mysterious
osteoporosis-like condition; men are much less likely to develop
osteoporosis, and more or less never before 60 or 70.

Yes, this was in the back of my mind when I posted. But you still have
to consider that, at the time of his retirement, Boardman would have
trained intensively for nearly 20 years on a track regime. The
suggestion there is that increased blood acidity as a result leeched
calcium from his bones.

Absent other evidence, I don't think this is conclusive. From what I've
read, on a hot day, a cyclist can lose as much as 200mg of calcium per
hour from sweat alone. Take a pro, who trains about 6 hours or so per
day, and that's 1200mg. Baseline RDA is 1000mg. How many elite
cyclists do you know who make sure they get 2200mg of calcium every day?

Even if Boardman got the RDA every day, he was suffering a deficit of
1200mg of calcium, day in and day out. That comes from *somewhere*.

Do cyclists have a lower than average incidence of kidney stones?

Quoted message said:

Do cyclists have a lower than average incidence of kidney stones?

Although I suppose the opposite effect could happen if you try to compensate
for Ca loss by ingesting more and there being some limitation of
absorption...

Quoted message said:

Carl Sundquist said:

">
Nitpicking here, but he was born in 1968, retired in 1999. Even if he
maintained a track regime until his retirement, you're saying he trained
intensively sufficient to cause blood acidity to leech calcium from his
bones before he reached puberty.

Retired at 31 ? Lucky [censored]. Why do I have to work ?

Your slow.

Ron

B. Lafferty said:

BTW, as Dr. Dope points out:
Fuentes, who added that his treatments also concerned other sports than
cycling (football, tennis, athletics), said that it was possible to ride the
Tour de France without "medical" help, but not at that speed. "You just
can't ride four of these mountain stages successively at that speed, it's
very harmful," he said, adding that in his opinion it was more dangerous for
a cyclist to start the Tour de France with a hematocrit level of 31 percent,
than one of 51 percent - even though this meant that the rider would be
excluded from competition.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/jul06/jul06news4

dumbass,

in that same link fuentes also says :

"[Cyclists] are very special sportsmen because they reduce their heart
rate by half when resting," he continued. "Their hearts are big, and
when they stop cycling their hearts reduce their size to normal within
six months, which results in what we call 'sudden death'."

"he stated that the bags of blood that were found were destined "for
use in the next ten years", and that the quantities of EPO seized "for
a family member who might need it." "

in his desperation he's saying whatever pops into his head, so none of
it is credible.

"RonSonic" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Carl Sundquist wrote:

Retired at 31 ? Lucky [censored]. Why do I have to work ?

Your slow.

Your mama.

--
Snippy

I don't think it can be said that Boardman was forced to retire

Quoted message said:

due to his low bone mineral density, any more than it can be said that
Lemond was forced to retire due to some mysterious mitochondrial
myopathy...

Andy Coggan

....and I was forced to retire due to my apathy to serious training.

Charles