Insomnia with Lipitor

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Sharon Hope" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:r6ayc.25660$HG.7786@attbi_s53...

Quoted message said:

Absolutely Lipitor causes severe insomnia in patients -
Pfizer says so in writing, and it definitely did in my
husband.

Pfizer states that INSOMNIA is one of the known adverse
effects.

Sharon that's an outright lie. They say that insomnia was
noted in greater than 2% of the population studied. They
say nothing about about it being a known adverse effect.
They say nothing about Lipitor causing "severe insomnia"
Only that it occurred in greater than 2% of the study
population. My guess is that insomnia occurs in greater
than 2% of the general population. So this proves nothing.

Bill

Didn't you mean "less than"? It's states: "The events in
*italics* occurred in >2% of patients and the events in
plain type occurred in <2% of patients."

Insomnia is in italics.

L

You seem to be misreading the arithmetic operator >. A
statement such as, " X > Y" is read as " X is greater than
Y". If you replace X with "the events in italics occurred
in" and Y with "2%", you get the statement in plain English
"the events in italics occurred in greater than 2%..." Don't
feel bad. Lots of people get confused by this. Just remember
that the wide side is the greater side and the pointy side
is the smaller side. The statement is qualified by the
statement that it is true regardless of causality
assessment. Bill's statement that insomnia occurs in greater
than 2% of the general population MAY be true. Some data
would be nice.

Gotta be careful about this causality stuff. The data
presented about the relationship of ED to heart attack is a
case in point. That data would seem to me to show that heart
attack MAY cause ED. But the data really says nothing at all
about ED causing heart attack.

John

"Sharon Hope" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:nvxyc.14019$eu.4114@attbi_s02...

Quoted message said:

Lipitor caused severe insomnia in 100% of the statin
takers in our household.

As for the lying, read the label - it says "Clinical
Adverse xperiences" - if it is a lie, it is Pfizer's lie.

No. You lied. Your claim was not that your household
experienced this or someone else found it. But that Pfizer
says that "Lipitor causes severe insomina in patients" First
of all where is the word severe used? Second no claim of
cauality was made by Pfizer only that it occured in greater
than 2% of the study population. In fact they say precisely
the opposite of what you claim. (Hence you lied.) Here is
exactly what they said:

"The following adverse events were reported, regardless of
causality assessment in patients treated with atorvastatin
in clinical trials."

Following this they list insomnia.

"regardless of causality" means exactly that. They do not
say Lipitor is a cause. They only note that it happend in
people in the study group.

Bill

Quoted message said:

"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Sharon Hope" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:r6ayc.25660$HG.7786@attbi_s53...

Quoted message said:

Absolutely Lipitor causes severe insomnia in patients
- Pfizer says so

in

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

writing, and it definitely did in my husband.

Pfizer states that INSOMNIA is one of the known
adverse effects.

Sharon that's an outright lie. They say that insomnia
was noted in greater than 2% of the population studied.
They say nothing about about it being a known adverse
effect. They say nothing about Lipitor causing "severe
insomnia" Only that it occurred in greater than 2% of
the study

population.

Quoted message said:

My guess is that insomnia occurs in greater than 2% of
the general

population.

Quoted message said:

So this proves nothing.

Bill

Quoted message said:

See

lipitor.comlipitorDesktoOpen ↗
p?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=prescribingInformation

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This is the Pfizer website, with the FDA-approved
label information.

Note

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that under the

"Clinical Adverse Experiences" section it states: "The
following adverse events were reported, regardless of
causality assessment in patients treated with
atorvastatin in clinical trials. The events in italics
occurred in 2% of patients and the events in plain

type

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

occurred in <2% of patients"

Under "Nervous System" in ITALICS (indicating 2% of
patients) it is

listed:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

INSOMNIA

Full list of neurological problems known to be
associated with Lipitor

use

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in this section (Asthenia (i.e., Weakness; lack of
energy and strength)

is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

listed in the table prior to this section):

"Nervous System: Insomnia, dizziness, paresthesia,
somnolence, amnesia, abnormal dreams, libido
decreased, emotional lability, incoordination,
peripheral neuropathy, torticollis, facial paralysis,
hyperkinesia, depression, hypesthesia, hypertonia"

"Tom R" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:0zIxc.52550$_k3.1315577@bgtnsc05-
news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> I started taking 10 mg of Lipitor in the mornings
> over 3 weeks ago.

Since

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> starting I have had moderate to severe insomnia
> usually getting only

2 - 3

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> hours of sleep. Does the insomnia subside after a
> period of time

(weeks,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> months)? Is insomnia a side effect of Lipitor or is
> it a side effect

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> statins in general? Is there another statin that may
> have less an

effect

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

on
> sleep?
>
> I would appreciate comments from anyone experienced
> with this side

effect.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>
> Tom R.
>
>
>
>
>

This article was from 1993. As you should know, Lipitor was
introduced in 1996. It is also not relevant to the
discussion of what Pfizer's claims were.

Bill

"Sharon Hope" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:UIxyc.72463$3x.48932@attbi_s54...

Quoted message said:

Per this study, the neuropsychiatric side effects of
statins were INSOMNIA at 11% (11% > 2%)

ncbi.nlm.nih.govquery.fcgiOpen ↗
db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=8146847

Quoted message said:

Therapie. 1993 Sep-Oct;48(5):509-12. A one-year
prospective and intensive pharmacovigilance of antilipemic
drugs in an hospital consultation for prevention of risk
factors]

[Article in French]

Jacquet A, Colomes M, Ferrieres J, Denat M, Douste-Blazy
P, Monstastruc JL.

Service de Pharmacologie Medicale et Clinique, Centre
Hospitalier Universitaire, Faculte de Medecine, Toulouse.

From the abstract:

"The most frequently observed side effects were gastralgia
(19.5%) observed with the three classes of drugs and
hepatitis with HMG-CoA reductase inhibitors (8.5%) or
fibrates (3%) whereas myopathy (12%) only occurred with
statines. The other side effects were cutaneous (14%:
eczema, skin rashes) or neuropsychiatric (11%:
insomnia...) ones."

Quoted message said:

"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Sharon Hope" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:r6ayc.25660$HG.7786@attbi_s53...

Quoted message said:

Absolutely Lipitor causes severe insomnia in patients
- Pfizer says so

in

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

writing, and it definitely did in my husband.

Pfizer states that INSOMNIA is one of the known
adverse effects.

Sharon that's an outright lie. They say that insomnia
was noted in greater than 2% of the population studied.
They say nothing about about it being a known adverse
effect. They say nothing about Lipitor causing "severe
insomnia" Only that it occurred in greater than 2% of
the study

population.

Quoted message said:

My guess is that insomnia occurs in greater than 2% of
the general

population.

Quoted message said:

So this proves nothing.

Bill

Quoted message said:

See

lipitor.comlipitorDesktoOpen ↗
p?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=prescribingInformation

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This is the Pfizer website, with the FDA-approved
label information.

Note

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that under the

"Clinical Adverse Experiences" section it states: "The
following adverse events were reported, regardless of
causality assessment in patients treated with
atorvastatin in clinical trials. The events in italics
occurred in 2% of patients and the events in plain

type

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

occurred in <2% of patients"

Under "Nervous System" in ITALICS (indicating 2% of
patients) it is

listed:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

INSOMNIA

Full list of neurological problems known to be
associated with Lipitor

use

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in this section (Asthenia (i.e., Weakness; lack of
energy and strength)

is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

listed in the table prior to this section):

"Nervous System: Insomnia, dizziness, paresthesia,
somnolence, amnesia, abnormal dreams, libido
decreased, emotional lability, incoordination,
peripheral neuropathy, torticollis, facial paralysis,
hyperkinesia, depression, hypesthesia, hypertonia"

"Tom R" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:0zIxc.52550$_k3.1315577@bgtnsc05-
news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> I started taking 10 mg of Lipitor in the mornings
> over 3 weeks ago.

Since

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> starting I have had moderate to severe insomnia
> usually getting only

2 - 3

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> hours of sleep. Does the insomnia subside after a
> period of time

(weeks,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> months)? Is insomnia a side effect of Lipitor or is
> it a side effect

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> statins in general? Is there another statin that may
> have less an

effect

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

on
> sleep?
>
> I would appreciate comments from anyone experienced
> with this side

effect.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>
> Tom R.
>
>
>
>
>

Bill,

It's just a way to get attention. We've seen it before
(remember "STATINS KILL!"...).

Call them on it, but you know she won't admit that she
misconstrued.

L.

Quoted message said:

"Sharon Hope" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:nvxyc.14019$eu.4114@attbi_s02...

Quoted message said:

Lipitor caused severe insomnia in 100% of the statin
takers in our household.

As for the lying, read the label - it says "Clinical
Adverse xperiences" - if it is a lie, it is Pfizer's lie.

No. You lied. Your claim was not that your household
experienced this or someone else found it. But that Pfizer
says that "Lipitor causes severe insomina in patients"
First of all where is the word severe used? Second no claim
of cauality was made by Pfizer only that it occured in
greater than 2% of the study population. In fact they say
precisely the opposite of what you claim. (Hence you lied.)
Here is exactly what they said:

"The following adverse events were reported, regardless of
causality assessment in patients treated with atorvastatin
in clinical trials."

Following this they list insomnia.

"regardless of causality" means exactly that. They do not
say Lipitor is a cause. They only note that it happend in
people in the study group.

Bill

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Sharon Hope" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:r6ayc.25660$HG.7786@attbi_s53...
> Absolutely Lipitor causes severe insomnia in patients
> - Pfizer says so

in

Quoted message said:

> writing, and it definitely did in my husband.
>
> Pfizer states that INSOMNIA is one of the known
> adverse effects.

Sharon that's an outright lie. They say that insomnia
was noted in greater than 2% of the population studied.
They say nothing about about it being a known adverse
effect. They say nothing about Lipitor causing "severe
insomnia" Only that it occurred in greater than 2% of
the study

population.

Quoted message said:

My guess is that insomnia occurs in greater than 2% of
the general

population.

Quoted message said:

So this proves nothing.

Bill

>
> See
>

lipitor.comlipitorDesktOpen ↗
op?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=prescribingInformation

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>
> This is the Pfizer website, with the FDA-approved
> label information.

Note

Quoted message said:

> that under the
>
> "Clinical Adverse Experiences" section it states:
> "The following adverse events were reported,
> regardless of causality assessment in patients
> treated with atorvastatin in clinical trials. The
> events in italics occurred in 2% of patients and the
> events in plain

type

Quoted message said:

> occurred in <2% of patients"
>
> Under "Nervous System" in ITALICS (indicating 2% of
> patients) it is

listed:

Quoted message said:

>
> INSOMNIA
>
> Full list of neurological problems known to be
> associated with Lipitor

use

Quoted message said:

> in this section (Asthenia (i.e., Weakness; lack of
> energy and strength)

is

Quoted message said:

> listed in the table prior to this section):
>
> "Nervous System: Insomnia, dizziness, paresthesia,
> somnolence, amnesia, abnormal dreams, libido
> decreased, emotional lability, incoordination,
> peripheral neuropathy, torticollis, facial paralysis,
> hyperkinesia, depression, hypesthesia, hypertonia"
>
> "Tom R" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:0zIxc.52550$_k3.1315577@bgtnsc05-
> news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> > I started taking 10 mg of Lipitor in the mornings
> > over 3 weeks ago.

Since

Quoted message said:

> > starting I have had moderate to severe insomnia
> > usually getting only

2 - 3

Quoted message said:

> > hours of sleep. Does the insomnia subside after a
> > period of time

(weeks,

Quoted message said:

> > months)? Is insomnia a side effect of Lipitor or is
> > it a side effect

of

Quoted message said:

> > statins in general? Is there another statin that
> > may have less an

effect

Quoted message said:

> on
> > sleep?
> >
> > I would appreciate comments from anyone experienced
> > with this side

effect.

Quoted message said:

> >
> > Tom R.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>

Zee said:

"Tom R" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<0zIxc.52550$_k3.1315577@bgtnsc05-
news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...

Quoted message said:

I started taking 10 mg of Lipitor in the mornings over 3
weeks ago. Since starting I have had moderate to severe
insomnia usually getting only 2 - 3 hours of sleep. Does
the insomnia subside after a period of time (weeks,
months)? Is insomnia a side effect of Lipitor or is it a
side effect of statins in general? Is there another statin
that may have less an effect on sleep?

I would appreciate comments from anyone experienced with
this side effect.

Tom R.

Salut Tom

You may wish to print this out and take it to your doctor.
But because it is replete with charts and graphs make sure
you copy out the url too so he/she will be able to go
online to read them fully. Your doctor will see that
statins are not recommended for "primary prevention".
(You). Also acquaint your physician with Dr. Paul Phillips
of Scripps Mercy San Diego, who is running studies on
mitochondrial myopathy caused by statins, and the work of
Dr. Beatrice Golomb, who has a NIH funded study on non-
cario endpoints of statin use. ZEE

ti.ubc.caletter48.htmOpen ↗

"Do statins have a role in primary prevention?
Conclusions: If cardiovascular serious adverse events are
viewed in isolation, 71 primary prevention patients with
cardiovascular risk factors have to be treated with a
statin for 3 to 5 years to prevent one myocardial
infarction or stroke.

This cardiovascular benefit is not reflected in 2 measures
of overall health impact, total mortality and total
serious adverse events. Therefore, statins have not been
shown to provide an overall health benefit in primary
prevention trials."

The Therapeutics Initiative presents critically appraised
summary evidence primarily from controlled drug trials.
Such evidence applies to patients similar to those
involved in the trails, and may not be generalizable to
every patient. We are committed to evaluate the
effectiveness of our educational activities using the
Pharmacare/PharmaNet databases without identifying
individual physicians, pharmacies or patients. The
Therapeutics Initiative is funded by the BC Ministry of
Health through a 5-year grant to the University of BC. The
Therapeutics Initiative provides evidence based advice
about drug therapy, and is not responsible for formulating
or adjudicating provincial drug policies.

This is a board where people experiencing statin side
effects share information. All statin side effects:
rxlist.comlipitor.plOpen ↗

Some on sleeplessness. There will be more if you search.
rxlist.comlipitor.plOpen ↗

A recent story on statin induced memory loss: w-w-Open ↗
ww.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/05/24/eveningnews/main6193-
51.shtml

There seem to be people who can take statins without side
effects. If you aren't one go over this information
carefully with your doctor. Go over it carefully anyway.

As everyone here can attest, I have more info if you
need it.

Zee

Original poster asked for information from " anyone
experienced with this side effect."

Since you did not experience Lipitor insomnia, it is not
clear why you have joined the conversation. Are you trying
to convince the poster that he is incorrect in seeing an
obvious cause-effect relationship between the start of the
Lipitor and the start of the insomnia? To what end? What do
you gain by telling him he is incorrect?

SEVERE insomnia in my perspective is chronic sleeplessness -
with a maximum of 2 or 3 hours in any one night. That is
exactly what the poster described, starting immediately upon
Lipitor treatment. That is exactly what my husband
experienced for 4 years on Lipitor, starting immediately
upon Lipitor treatment. That is exactly what many others on
Lipitor have shared with us, each starting the SEVERE
INSOMNIA immediately upon Lipitor treatment.

Since you admittedly do NOT have any perspective on the
conversation, perhaps you should read and learn.

For one thing, you could learn that all HMG CoA Reductase
Inhibitors have common adverse effects. A study that links
INSOMNIA with HMG CoA Reductase Inhibitors is of interest to
someone who suffers SEVERE INSOMNIA IMMEDIATELY UPON LIPITOR
TREATMENT.

That you do not think these people should suffer SEVERE
INSOMNIA IMMEDIATELY UPON LIPITOR TREATMENT is of no
consequence, because they DO suffer severe insomnia
immediately upon Lipitor treatment.

Homework assignment: Go to a sleep clinic and interview
the neurologist there. Ask what the percentage is of
new referrals who are taking statins vs those not
taking statins.

But then, you will likely refuse to believe the
neurologist, too.

Meanwhile, the original poster has heard about the first-
hand experiences from those he asked for information. He has
seen the physician's prescribing label that lists INSOMNIA.
He has seen the links to published medical journal studies
showing INSOMNIA linked to statins.

And he has heard that you don't think any of it is related.

I think he can make the decision for himself. He should also
ask his doctor if his adverse effect has been reported to
the FDA (as it is on the Label for prescribing physicians),
and if not, why not?

"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Sharon Hope" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:nvxyc.14019$eu.4114@attbi_s02...

Quoted message said:

Lipitor caused severe insomnia in 100% of the statin
takers in our household.

As for the lying, read the label - it says
"Clinical Adverse xperiences" - if it is a lie, it
is Pfizer's lie.

No. You lied. Your claim was not that your household
experienced this or someone else found it. But that Pfizer
says that "Lipitor causes severe insomina in patients"
First of all where is the word severe used? Second

no

Quoted message said:

claim of cauality was made by Pfizer only that it occured
in greater than

2%

Quoted message said:

of the study population. In fact they say precisely the
opposite of what

you

Quoted message said:

claim. (Hence you lied.) Here is exactly what they said:

"The following adverse events were reported, regardless of
causality assessment in patients treated with atorvastatin
in clinical trials."

Following this they list insomnia.

"regardless of causality" means exactly that. They do not
say Lipitor is a cause. They only note that it happend in
people in the study group.

Bill

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Sharon Hope" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:r6ayc.25660$HG.7786@attbi_s53...
> Absolutely Lipitor causes severe insomnia in
> patients - Pfizer says

so

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in

Quoted message said:

> writing, and it definitely did in my husband.
>
> Pfizer states that INSOMNIA is one of the known
> adverse effects.

Sharon that's an outright lie. They say that insomnia
was noted in

greater

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

than 2% of the population studied. They say nothing
about about it

being a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

known adverse effect. They say nothing about Lipitor
causing "severe insomnia" Only that it occurred in
greater than 2% of the study

population.

Quoted message said:

My guess is that insomnia occurs in greater than 2% of
the general

population.

Quoted message said:

So this proves nothing.

Bill

>
> See
>

lipitor.comlipitorDesktoOpen ↗
p?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=prescribingInformation

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>
> This is the Pfizer website, with the FDA-approved
> label information.

Note

Quoted message said:

> that under the
>
> "Clinical Adverse Experiences" section it states:
> "The following adverse events were reported,
> regardless of causality assessment in patients
> treated with atorvastatin in clinical trials.

The

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> events in italics occurred in 2% of patients and the
> events in plain

type

Quoted message said:

> occurred in <2% of patients"
>
> Under "Nervous System" in ITALICS (indicating 2% of
> patients) it is

listed:

Quoted message said:

>
> INSOMNIA
>
> Full list of neurological problems known to be
> associated with

Lipitor

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

use

Quoted message said:

> in this section (Asthenia (i.e., Weakness; lack of
> energy and

strength)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

is

Quoted message said:

> listed in the table prior to this section):
>
> "Nervous System: Insomnia, dizziness, paresthesia,
> somnolence,

amnesia,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> abnormal dreams, libido decreased, emotional
> lability,

incoordination,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> peripheral neuropathy, torticollis, facial
> paralysis, hyperkinesia, depression, hypesthesia,
> hypertonia"
>
> "Tom R" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:0zIxc.52550$_k3.1315577@bgtnsc05-
> news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> > I started taking 10 mg of Lipitor in the mornings
> > over 3 weeks

ago.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Since

Quoted message said:

> > starting I have had moderate to severe insomnia
> > usually getting

only

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

2 - 3

Quoted message said:

> > hours of sleep. Does the insomnia subside after a
> > period of time

(weeks,

Quoted message said:

> > months)? Is insomnia a side effect of Lipitor or
> > is it a side

effect

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of

Quoted message said:

> > statins in general? Is there another statin that
> > may have less an

effect

Quoted message said:

> on
> > sleep?
> >
> > I would appreciate comments from anyone
> > experienced with this side

effect.

Quoted message said:

> >
> > Tom R.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>

Quoted message said:

"Sharon Hope" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:nvxyc.14019$eu.4114@attbi_s02...

Quoted message said:

Lipitor caused severe insomnia in 100% of the statin
takers in our household.

Quoted message said:

No. You lied. Your claim was not that your household
experienced this or someone else found it. But that Pfizer
says that "Lipitor causes severe insomina in patients"
First of all where is the word severe used? Second no
claim of cauality was made by Pfizer only that it occured
in greater than 2% of the study population. In fact they
say precisely the opposite of what you claim. (Hence you
lied.) Here is exactly what they said:

"The following adverse events were reported, regardless of
causality assessment in patients treated with atorvastatin
in clinical trials."

Following this they list insomnia.

"regardless of causality" means exactly that. They do not
say Lipitor is a cause. They only note that it happend in
people in the study group.

Bill

Bill

Reading this thread I first thought "what is Bill trying to
achieve here." I still don't know. But what you may achieve
disturbs me. You may cause people at the brink of disability
to doubt themselves.

Over and over here, particularly from certain posters, it is
implied I, we, who had statin side effects and damage did
not do what we should have done, what YOU would have done,
it is implied and outright said, to protect ourselves. We
did not inform ourselves of the side effects that "every"
drug has. We did not take ourselves off the drugs at the
first sign of a side effect. Like Stepford patients, we
stayed on them until we were injured beyond repair.

Certainly not what the informed patient does.

We, some of us, doubted ourselves, Bill, when we were
confronted with just such thinking as yours. It has not been
proven, there is not causality, we are wrong.

Have a care what you achieve in being right.

Zee Disabled and destroyed.

Severe insomnia is an understatement in our personal
experience.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Bill,

It's just a way to get attention. We've seen it before
(remember "STATINS KILL!"...).

Call them on it, but you know she won't admit that she
misconstrued.

L.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Sharon Hope" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:nvxyc.14019$eu.4114@attbi_s02...

Quoted message said:

Lipitor caused severe insomnia in 100% of the statin
takers in our household.

As for the lying, read the label - it says
"Clinical Adverse xperiences" - if it is a lie, it
is Pfizer's lie.

No. You lied. Your claim was not that your household
experienced this or someone else found it. But that
Pfizer says that "Lipitor causes severe insomina in
patients" First of all where is the word severe
used? Second

no

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

claim of cauality was made by Pfizer only that it occured
in greater than

2%

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of the study population. In fact they say precisely the
opposite of what

you

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

claim. (Hence you lied.) Here is exactly what they said:

"The following adverse events were reported, regardless
of causality assessment in patients treated with
atorvastatin in clinical trials."

Following this they list insomnia.

"regardless of causality" means exactly that. They do not
say Lipitor is

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

cause. They only note that it happend in people in the
study group.

Bill

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"]news:[email hidden]...
>
> "Sharon Hope" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:r6ayc.25660$HG.7786@attbi_s53...
> > Absolutely Lipitor causes severe insomnia in
> > patients - Pfizer says

so

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in
> > writing, and it definitely did in my husband.
> >
> > Pfizer states that INSOMNIA is one of the known
> > adverse effects.
>
> Sharon that's an outright lie. They say that insomnia
> was noted in

greater

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> than 2% of the population studied. They say nothing
> about about it

being a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> known adverse effect. They say nothing about Lipitor
> causing "severe insomnia" Only that it occurred in
> greater than 2% of the study
population.
> My guess is that insomnia occurs in greater than 2%
> of the general
population.
> So this proves nothing.
>
> Bill
>
> >
> > See
> >
>

lipitor.comlipitorDesktOpen ↗
op?_nfpb=true&_pa

geLabel=prescribingInformation

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >
> > This is the Pfizer website, with the FDA-approved
> > label

information.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Note
> > that under the
> >
> > "Clinical Adverse Experiences" section it states:
> > "The following adverse events were reported,
> > regardless of

causality

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > assessment in patients treated with atorvastatin in
> > clinical

trials. The

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > events in italics occurred in 2% of patients and
> > the events in

plain

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

type
> > occurred in <2% of patients"
> >
> > Under "Nervous System" in ITALICS (indicating 2% of
> > patients) it is
listed:
> >
> > INSOMNIA
> >
> > Full list of neurological problems known to be
> > associated with

Lipitor

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

use
> > in this section (Asthenia (i.e., Weakness; lack of
> > energy and

strength)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

is
> > listed in the table prior to this section):
> >
> > "Nervous System: Insomnia, dizziness, paresthesia,
> > somnolence,

amnesia,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > abnormal dreams, libido decreased, emotional
> > lability,

incoordination,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > peripheral neuropathy, torticollis, facial
> > paralysis, hyperkinesia, depression, hypesthesia,
> > hypertonia"
> >
> > "Tom R" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:0zIxc.52550$_k3.1315577@bgtnsc05-
> > news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> > > I started taking 10 mg of Lipitor in the mornings
> > > over 3 weeks

ago.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Since
> > > starting I have had moderate to severe insomnia
> > > usually getting

only

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

2 - 3
> > > hours of sleep. Does the insomnia subside after a
> > > period of time
(weeks,
> > > months)? Is insomnia a side effect of Lipitor or
> > > is it a side

effect

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of
> > > statins in general? Is there another statin that
> > > may have less an
effect
> > on
> > > sleep?
> > >
> > > I would appreciate comments from anyone
> > > experienced with this

side

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

effect.
> > >
> > > Tom R.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

"Sharon Hope" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:RCOyc.18300$2i5.9340@attbi_s52...

Quoted message said:

Original poster asked for information from " anyone
experienced with this side effect."

Since you did not experience Lipitor insomnia, it is not
clear why you have joined the conversation.

To point out that you are a liar and your information is not
to be trusted.

Bill

Quoted message said:

Are you trying to convince the poster that he is incorrect
in seeing an obvious cause-effect relationship between the
start of the Lipitor and the start of the insomnia? To
what end? What do you gain by telling him he is incorrect?

SEVERE insomnia in my perspective is chronic sleeplessness
- with a maximum of 2 or 3 hours in any one night. That is
exactly what the poster described, starting immediately
upon Lipitor treatment. That is exactly what my husband
experienced for 4 years on Lipitor, starting immediately
upon Lipitor treatment. That is exactly what many others
on Lipitor have shared with us, each starting the SEVERE
INSOMNIA immediately upon Lipitor treatment.

Since you admittedly do NOT have any perspective on the
conversation, perhaps you should read and learn.

For one thing, you could learn that all HMG CoA Reductase
Inhibitors have common adverse effects. A study that links
INSOMNIA with HMG CoA Reductase Inhibitors is of interest
to someone who suffers SEVERE INSOMNIA IMMEDIATELY UPON
LIPITOR TREATMENT.

That you do not think these people should suffer SEVERE
INSOMNIA IMMEDIATELY UPON LIPITOR TREATMENT is of no
consequence, because they DO suffer severe insomnia
immediately upon Lipitor treatment.

Homework assignment: Go to a sleep clinic and interview
the neurologist there. Ask what the percentage is of new
referrals who are taking statins vs those not taking
statins.

But then, you will likely refuse to believe the
neurologist, too.

Meanwhile, the original poster has heard about the first-
hand experiences from those he asked for information. He
has seen the physician's prescribing label that lists
INSOMNIA. He has seen the links to published medical
journal studies showing INSOMNIA linked to statins.

And he has heard that you don't think any of it is
related.

I think he can make the decision for himself. He should
also ask his doctor if his adverse effect has been
reported to the FDA (as it is on the Label for prescribing
physicians), and if not, why not?

Quoted message said:

"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Sharon Hope" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:nvxyc.14019$eu.4114@attbi_s02...

Quoted message said:

Lipitor caused severe insomnia in 100% of the statin
takers in our household.

As for the lying, read the label - it says "Clinical
Adverse xperiences" - if it is a lie, it is Pfizer's
lie.

No. You lied. Your claim was not that your household
experienced this or someone else found it. But that
Pfizer says that "Lipitor causes severe insomina in
patients" First of all where is the word severe used?
Second

no

Quoted message said:

claim of cauality was made by Pfizer only that it
occured in greater than

2%

Quoted message said:

of the study population. In fact they say precisely the
opposite of what

you

Quoted message said:

claim. (Hence you lied.) Here is exactly what they said:

"The following adverse events were reported, regardless
of causality assessment in patients treated with
atorvastatin in clinical trials."

Following this they list insomnia.

"regardless of causality" means exactly that. They do
not say Lipitor is a cause. They only note that it
happend in people in the study group.

Bill

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"]news:[email hidden]...
>
> "Sharon Hope" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:r6ayc.25660$HG.7786@attbi_s53...
> > Absolutely Lipitor causes severe insomnia in
> > patients - Pfizer says

so

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in
> > writing, and it definitely did in my husband.
> >
> > Pfizer states that INSOMNIA is one of the known
> > adverse effects.
>
> Sharon that's an outright lie. They say that
> insomnia was noted in

greater

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> than 2% of the population studied. They say nothing
> about about it

being a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> known adverse effect. They say nothing about Lipitor
> causing "severe insomnia" Only that it occurred in
> greater than 2% of the study
population.
> My guess is that insomnia occurs in greater than 2%
> of the general
population.
> So this proves nothing.
>
> Bill
>
> >
> > See
> >
>

lipitor.comlipitorDesktoOpen ↗
p?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=prescribingInformation

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >
> > This is the Pfizer website, with the FDA-approved
> > label information.
Note
> > that under the
> >
> > "Clinical Adverse Experiences" section it states:
> > "The following adverse events were reported,
> > regardless of causality assessment in patients
> > treated with atorvastatin in clinical trials.

The

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > events in italics occurred in 2% of patients and
> > the events in plain
type
> > occurred in <2% of patients"
> >
> > Under "Nervous System" in ITALICS (indicating 2%
> > of patients) it is
listed:
> >
> > INSOMNIA
> >
> > Full list of neurological problems known to be
> > associated with

Lipitor

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

use
> > in this section (Asthenia (i.e., Weakness; lack of
> > energy and

strength)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

is
> > listed in the table prior to this section):
> >
> > "Nervous System: Insomnia, dizziness, paresthesia,
> > somnolence,

amnesia,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > abnormal dreams, libido decreased, emotional
> > lability,

incoordination,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > peripheral neuropathy, torticollis, facial
> > paralysis, hyperkinesia, depression, hypesthesia,
> > hypertonia"
> >
> > "Tom R" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:0zIxc.52550$_k3.1315577@bgtnsc05-
> > news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> > > I started taking 10 mg of Lipitor in the
> > > mornings over 3 weeks

ago.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Since
> > > starting I have had moderate to severe insomnia
> > > usually getting

only

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

2 - 3
> > > hours of sleep. Does the insomnia subside after
> > > a period of time
(weeks,
> > > months)? Is insomnia a side effect of Lipitor or
> > > is it a side

effect

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of
> > > statins in general? Is there another statin that
> > > may have less an
effect
> > on
> > > sleep?
> > >
> > > I would appreciate comments from anyone
> > > experienced with this side
effect.
> > >
> > > Tom R.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 02:04:33 GMT, "Sharon Hope" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Original poster asked for information from " anyone
experienced with this side effect."

Insomnia. Understood.

But you did make a statement:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> "Sharon Hope" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:r6ayc.25660$HG.7786@attbi_s53...
> > Absolutely Lipitor causes severe insomnia in
> > patients - Pfizer says

so in writing,

Sharon, if you could just point us to exactly where Pfizer
says that Lipitor causes "severe insomnia" in patients, this
whole thing can be quickly and easily resolved.

L.

"Zee" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Have a care what you achieve in being right.

Zee Disabled and destroyed.

If you have evidence to support a position you should
present that. But one should not lie to support that
position, be it right or wrong, and in the end such lies
will only detract from the credibility of the liar.

If I see someone here posting something of medical
consequence that I know to be 100% wrong, I will call that
person on that. It is as simple as that. In this case Sharon
did not claim that insomnia was a side effect of Lipitor.
She claimed Pfizer said that. This was a lie.

Believing that something is bad, does not give you a right
to lie about it to convince others it is bad.

Bill

"Sharon Hope" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:vnOyc.40535$Sw.32481@attbi_s51...

Quoted message said:

Severe insomnia is an understatement in our personal
experience.

Your personal experience was not the issue. You lied when
you said Pfizer claims

"Lipitor causes severe insomnia in patients"

Do you not understand it is relevant who makes a claim. That
it might matter to some people whether Sharon Hope makes a
particular claim or Pfizer does.

As I said, no where is the word "severe" used by Pfizer.
Further, they explicitly say "regardless of causality" which
you claim means causality.

Hence you lied. Or do you have another explanation of what
"regardless of causality" means.

Bill

Quoted message said:

"Zee" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Have a care what you achieve in being right.

Zee Disabled and destroyed.

If you have evidence to support a position you should
present that. But one should not lie to support that
position, be it right or wrong, and in the end such lies
will only detract from the credibility of the liar.

If I see someone here posting something of medical
consequence that I know to be 100% wrong, I will call that
person on that. It is as simple as that. In this case
Sharon did not claim that insomnia was a side effect of
Lipitor. She claimed Pfizer said that. This was a lie.

Believing that something is bad, does not give you a right
to lie about it to convince others it is bad.

Bill

Everyon is entitled to their own opinions, but not their own
facts. (with thanks to Pat Moynihan)

L.

Quoted message said:

"Zee" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Have a care what you achieve in being right.

Zee Disabled and destroyed.

If you have evidence to support a position you should
present that. But one should not lie to support that
position, be it right or wrong, and in the end such lies
will only detract from the credibility of the liar.

If I see someone here posting something of medical
consequence that I know to be 100% wrong, I will call that
person on that. It is as simple as that. In this case
Sharon did not claim that insomnia was a side effect of
Lipitor. She claimed Pfizer said that. This was a lie.

Believing that something is bad, does not give you a right
to lie about it to convince others it is bad.

Bill

Dear Mr. Science Guy

You said Sharon lied. You said Sharon is a liar. You have
not proven either of these statements.

Zee

My post had the full information. The summary introductory
sentence covered both our experience and Pfizer's admission
of INSOMNIA associated with Lipitor.

The full information from the Physician's prescribing
information was in the post.

What exactly do you earn for trying to intimidate people
from posting the truth about statin adverse effects?

"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Sharon Hope" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:vnOyc.40535$Sw.32481@attbi_s51...

Quoted message said:

Severe insomnia is an understatement in our personal
experience.

Your personal experience was not the issue. You lied when
you said Pfizer claims

"Lipitor causes severe insomnia in patients"

Do you not understand it is relevant who makes a claim.
That it might

matter

Quoted message said:

to some people whether Sharon Hope makes a particular
claim or Pfizer

does.

Quoted message said:

As I said, no where is the word "severe" used by Pfizer.
Further, they explicitly say "regardless of causality"
which you claim means causality.

Hence you lied. Or do you have another explanation of what
"regardless of causality" means.

Bill

Is it an hourly rate, or do you get a stipend per attack
with a sliding scale between intimidation and namecalling?

Does 10 Billion$/year pay for ng trolls now?

"Sharon Hope" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:GKOyc.90340$Ly.31919@attbi_s01...

Quoted message said:

My post had the full information. The summary introductory
sentence

covered

Quoted message said:

both our experience and Pfizer's admission of INSOMNIA
associated with Lipitor.

The full information from the Physician's prescribing
information was in

the

Quoted message said:

post.

What exactly do you earn for trying to intimidate people
from posting the truth about statin adverse effects?

Quoted message said:

"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Sharon Hope" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:vnOyc.40535$Sw.32481@attbi_s51...

Quoted message said:

Severe insomnia is an understatement in our personal
experience.

Your personal experience was not the issue. You lied
when you said

Pfizer

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

claims

"Lipitor causes severe insomnia in patients"

Do you not understand it is relevant who makes a claim.
That it might

matter

Quoted message said:

to some people whether Sharon Hope makes a particular
claim or Pfizer

does.

Quoted message said:

As I said, no where is the word "severe" used by Pfizer.
Further, they explicitly say "regardless of causality"
which you claim means

causality.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Hence you lied. Or do you have another explanation of
what "regardless

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

causality" means.

Bill

"Sharon Hope" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:GKOyc.90340$Ly.31919@attbi_s01...

Quoted message said:

My post had the full information. The summary introductory
sentence covered both our experience and Pfizer's
admission of INSOMNIA associated with Lipitor.

The full information from the Physician's prescribing
information was in the post.

What exactly do you earn for trying to intimidate people
from posting the truth about statin adverse effects?

I earn nothing. And I ask you the same question you ask me.
Again you have never addressed the question I raised.

1. Did you or did you not claim that Pfizer said "Lipitor
causes severe insomina in patients."

It is a very simple yes or no question.

2. Do you still think this is true after the evidence I have
presented. And if so. Why?

Bill

Quoted message said:

"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Sharon Hope" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:vnOyc.40535$Sw.32481@attbi_s51...

Quoted message said:

Severe insomnia is an understatement in our personal
experience.

Your personal experience was not the issue. You lied
when you said Pfizer claims

"Lipitor causes severe insomnia in patients"

Do you not understand it is relevant who makes a claim.
That it might

matter

Quoted message said:

to some people whether Sharon Hope makes a particular
claim or Pfizer

does.

Quoted message said:

As I said, no where is the word "severe" used by Pfizer.
Further, they explicitly say "regardless of causality"
which you claim means causality.

Hence you lied. Or do you have another explanation of
what "regardless of causality" means.

Bill