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Internal hub gears or derailleur?

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UK and Europe
Published
17 May 2008
Last activity
21 May 2008
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Steve C
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  1. My wife and I have just had our bikes stolen. I need to get a new one
    for commuting to work and I've been looking at purchasing a hybrid type
    bike as I do like to take the bike over rough ground at weekends, forest
    paths etc (i.e. still quite gentle).

    Some commuting bikes (Giant Escape for example) come with 8 speed
    internal gear hubs whereas others (Giant CRS) have 27 speed derailleur
    systems. Is it practical to use a bike with internal hub gears off road
    or is a derailleur system better?

    Thanks

    Steve C

  2. On Sat, 17 May 2008 10:13:22 +0100

    Steve C said:

    My wife and I have just had our bikes stolen. I need to get a new one
    for commuting to work and I've been looking at purchasing a hybrid
    type bike as I do like to take the bike over rough ground at
    weekends, forest paths etc (i.e. still quite gentle).

    Some commuting bikes (Giant Escape for example) come with 8 speed
    internal gear hubs whereas others (Giant CRS) have 27 speed
    derailleur systems. Is it practical to use a bike with internal hub
    gears off road or is a derailleur system better?


    There's no reason hub gears won't handle moderate off-road use -
    they'll generally cope with stray twigs better than derailleurs do. The
    downside of hub gears is they tend to weigh more than derailleurs,
    they're a little less efficient and don't have as wide a range of
    gears. They can also be very expensive. The upside is that a better
    chain line can be maintained and all the workings are protected within
    the hub.

  3. In article said:

    My wife and I have just had our bikes stolen. I need to get a new one
    for commuting to work and I've been looking at purchasing a hybrid type
    bike as I do like to take the bike over rough ground at weekends, forest
    paths etc (i.e. still quite gentle).

    Some commuting bikes (Giant Escape for example) come with 8 speed
    internal gear hubs whereas others (Giant CRS) have 27 speed derailleur
    systems. Is it practical to use a bike with internal hub gears off road
    or is a derailleur system better?

    A derailleur system will give you a wider range of gears unless your
    internal gear hub is the excellent but expensive Rohloff, but for
    gentle forest paths I would have thought the 8-speed hub would be
    entirely practical. But I haven't actually used one.

  4. Might be worth finding something with a Shimano Alfine 8-spd hub if
    you are going to get the bikes mucky, as they claim 'improved
    sealing'. (Rolhoff is fine off road, AFAIK.)
    Otherwise I can't see the problem with using a hub gear on relatively
    mild off-road paths (smooth-ish, no big gradients etc.).

  5. "Rob Morley" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:20080517125551.567983be@bluemoon...

    Quoted message said:

    On Sat, 17 May 2008 10:13:22 +0100

    Steve C said:

    My wife and I have just had our bikes stolen. I need to get a new one
    for commuting to work and I've been looking at purchasing a hybrid
    type bike as I do like to take the bike over rough ground at
    weekends, forest paths etc (i.e. still quite gentle).

    Some commuting bikes (Giant Escape for example) come with 8 speed
    internal gear hubs whereas others (Giant CRS) have 27 speed
    derailleur systems. Is it practical to use a bike with internal hub
    gears off road or is a derailleur system better?


    There's no reason hub gears won't handle moderate off-road use -
    they'll generally cope with stray twigs better than derailleurs do. The
    downside of hub gears is they tend to weigh more than derailleurs,
    they're a little less efficient and don't have as wide a range of
    gears. They can also be very expensive. The upside is that a better
    chain line can be maintained and all the workings are protected within
    the hub.


    Hub gears are usd in the Thorn expedition range of bikes and I'm sure that
    I've seen some hub gearsed MTBs. Although the bikes that I'm referring to
    are 14 speed hubs from Rohloff, the principles are the same for any hub
    geared ike. There's no mechanisms to damage. Chains tend to last longer
    because there's no lateral flex caused by derailleur gears. The makers of
    the Thorn range of bikes claim that there's no weight disadvantage when the
    gear mechs and levers are compared i.e. derailleur shifters and mechs from
    front and rear vs the hub gear. Efficiency isn't really an issue unless one
    is trying the extract every last ounce of performance from a bike.

    The only downsides that I can think of, and they are minor, is the faff of
    removing the rear wheel to replace inner tubes when suffering from a
    puncture and the need to adjust the rear wheel periodically to maintain
    chain tension. Thorn bikes have neat fixes to attend to these issues i.e.
    eccentric bottom bracket mount and some cleaver connectors to facilitate
    wheel removal. I don't know how other manufacturers approach these two
    problems.

  6. Alan Braggins said:

    A derailleur system will give you a wider range of gears unless your
    internal gear hub is the excellent but expensive Rohloff, but for
    gentle forest paths I would have thought the 8-speed hub would be
    entirely practical. But I haven't actually used one.

    I have, I did an off road thing in Derbyshire two years ago on my wife's
    Nexus8 bike. It's fine, first is really low, top is fine for road
    work... the efficiency thing I would debate: the hub gear is always
    running in clean grease rather than road crud, so in actual use I would
    imagine they are on a par unless you are a meticulous bike cleaner :-)
    and as for range of gears, well.. the hub doesn't have overlap and the
    spacing is even - ICBA to dig out the numbers but I think Mrs B's
    8-speed is not too far off being the equal of a 27 speed chain bully...

    YMMV but I think hub gears are really, really good... but taking the
    back wheel off is, indeed, an [censored]...

    T

  7. Steve C said:

    My wife and I have just had our bikes stolen. I need to get a new one
    for commuting to work and I've been looking at purchasing a hybrid type
    bike as I do like to take the bike over rough ground at weekends, forest
    paths etc (i.e. still quite gentle).

    Some commuting bikes (Giant Escape for example) come with 8 speed
    internal gear hubs whereas others (Giant CRS) have 27 speed derailleur
    systems. Is it practical to use a bike with internal hub gears off road
    or is a derailleur system better?

    There's now a few complete mountain bikes that use the Shimano Alfine
    hub gears (eg from Charge or Genesis), so I think it would work fine for
    off road.
    It does mean the back wheel would be a bit heavier than with a
    derailleur, which might affect handling a bit (though probably not a
    problem for forest paths etc).

    Though I notice that SRAM say the i-Motion 9 is 'not approved' for
    mountain bike use. I'm sure it would work fine for gentle off road, it
    just might not be covered by the warranty if it breaks.

  8. In article said:

    the Thorn range of bikes claim that there's no weight disadvantage when the
    gear mechs and levers are compared i.e. derailleur shifters and mechs from
    front and rear vs the hub gear.

    Though on a full suspension bike the front mech and chainrings will
    be sprung weight and the hub unsprung, hence the G-Boxx design with
    the "hub" gear in the frame.
    On a commuting bike on modest forest paths that really doesn't matter
    at all though.

  9. Alan Braggins said:
    In article said:

    My wife and I have just had our bikes stolen. I need to get a new one
    for commuting to work and I've been looking at purchasing a hybrid type
    bike as I do like to take the bike over rough ground at weekends, forest
    paths etc (i.e. still quite gentle).

    Some commuting bikes (Giant Escape for example) come with 8 speed
    internal gear hubs whereas others (Giant CRS) have 27 speed derailleur
    systems. Is it practical to use a bike with internal hub gears off road
    or is a derailleur system better?

    A derailleur system will give you a wider range of gears unless your
    internal gear hub is the excellent but expensive Rohloff,


    or even
    http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/nuvinci.html


  10. Quoted message said:


    Some commuting bikes (Giant Escape for example) come with 8 speed
    internal gear hubs whereas others (Giant CRS) have 27 speed derailleur
    systems. Is it practical to use a bike with internal hub gears off road
    or is a derailleur system better?

    Hub gears every time, no doubt about it. Non over-lapped evenly
    spaced perfect first time quick sequential shifts. No more missed
    shifts, spurious shifts, clanking chains, chain suck, broken mechs,
    bent hangers, de-gunking jockey wheels, noisy drive-trains or
    continual fettling/adjustment. I miss dérailleurs like a hole in the
    head.

    Don't worry about adjusting the gears when re-placing the wheel
    either. For a Sturmey Archer it takes about a minute and it's a dead
    easy job. For a Rohloff you don't need to do anything except
    selecting the top gear.

    Three gears is plenty enough for commuting, any more is a bonus.

    Regards,

    Duncan

  11. vernon said:

    "Rob Morley" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:20080517125551.567983be@bluemoon...

    Quoted message said:


    There's no reason hub gears won't handle moderate off-road use -
    they'll generally cope with stray twigs better than derailleurs do. The
    downside of hub gears is they tend to weigh more than
    derailleurs, they're a little less efficient and don't have as wide
    a range of gears. They can also be very expensive. The upside is
    that a better chain line can be maintained and all the workings are
    protected within the hub.


    Hub gears are usd in the Thorn expedition range of bikes and I'm sure
    that I've seen some hub gearsed MTBs. Although the bikes that I'm
    referring to are 14 speed hubs from Rohloff, the principles are the
    same for any hub geared ike. There's no mechanisms to damage. Chains tend
    to last longer because there's no lateral flex caused by
    derailleur gears. The makers of the Thorn range of bikes claim that
    there's no weight disadvantage when the gear mechs and levers are
    compared i.e. derailleur shifters and mechs from front and rear vs
    the hub gear. Efficiency isn't really an issue unless one is trying
    the extract every last ounce of performance from a bike.

    The only downsides that I can think of, and they are minor, is the
    faff of removing the rear wheel to replace inner tubes when suffering
    from a puncture and the need to adjust the rear wheel periodically to
    maintain chain tension. Thorn bikes have neat fixes to attend to
    these issues i.e. eccentric bottom bracket mount and some cleaver
    connectors to facilitate wheel removal. I don't know how other
    manufacturers approach these two problems.

    Rohloff is exceptional and extremely expensive. There is a weight
    disdvantage with more affordable hub gear systems such as Shimano Nexus (the
    hub weighs a ton), and removing the rear wheel is such a faff that a lot of
    ordinary owners would have to get a bike shop to do it for them. Chain
    tension only needs to be adjusted after the chain has stretched, which
    should take some thousands of miles. This is done manually via wheel
    positioning.

    However, the advantages of the ease of gear-shifting and low maintenance of
    a Nexus system can make it well worthwhile to anyone who wants to cruise
    along at modest speeds and doesn't need a wide range of gears - on off-road
    paths as well as roads.

    Fitting hard-wearing and highly puncture-resistant tyres such as Schwalbe
    Marathon Plus will make tyre and tube changes a rare occurrence.

    The rear roller brake option reduces maintance and cleaning further, and
    works better than a rim brake in wet weather.

    ~PB

  12. Pete Biggs said:

    Rohloff is exceptional and extremely expensive. There is a weight
    disdvantage with more affordable hub gear systems such as Shimano Nexus (the
    hub weighs a ton), and removing the rear wheel is such a faff that a lot of
    ordinary owners would have to get a bike shop to do it for them.

    It's easy - just loosen the wheel nuts and slide it out. Unless there's
    a roller brake fitted too, there's no need to disconnect the gear cable
    to mend a puncture or change a tyre. (When working at home, I
    disconnect the gear cable anyway, but for roadside repairs I leave it
    attached.) On some Nexus-equipped bikes the cable can be quickly
    unclipped from the frame to give you more room to work. If a roller
    brake is fitted, the brake cable has to be detached from the wheel to
    get the tyre and tube out. But this cable can be easily detached and
    reattached without tools.

    I found that the gear ratios on a 'standard' Nexus equipped bike were
    too low. Easily changed by fitting a larger chain wheel. Incidentally,
    the Nexus uses the Sturmey/Sachs 3-spline system for its sprocket, so
    there's a huge range of sprockets available. You can even change to
    1/8" chain if that appeals.

    --
    Andrew

  13. Quoting Naqerj <[email hidden]>:
    [gear hubs]

    Quoted message said:

    It's easy - just loosen the wheel nuts and slide it out. Unless there's
    a roller brake fitted too, there's no need to disconnect the gear cable
    to mend a puncture or change a tyre.

    That's theoretically true, but certainly on my S-A five-speed I find these
    jobs so fiddly with the wheel hanging like a loose tooth that I prefer to
    disconnect it.
    --
    David Damerell <[email hidden]> Kill the tomato!
    Today is Chedday, May.

  14. Naqerj said:
    Pete Biggs said:

    Rohloff is exceptional and extremely expensive. There is a weight
    disdvantage with more affordable hub gear systems such as Shimano
    Nexus (the hub weighs a ton), and removing the rear wheel is such a
    faff that a lot of ordinary owners would have to get a bike shop to
    do it for them.

    It's easy - just loosen the wheel nuts and slide it out. Unless
    there's a roller brake fitted too, there's no need to disconnect the
    gear cable to mend a puncture or change a tyre. (When working at
    home, I disconnect the gear cable anyway, but for roadside repairs I
    leave it attached.) On some Nexus-equipped bikes the cable can be
    quickly unclipped from the frame to give you more room to work.

    It won't be easy for a lot of the target market for this sort of bike. It's
    not that obvious what should be done with the roller brake (if there is
    one), and tensioning the chain correctly, while centering the wheel, while
    tightening the wheel nuts evenly, is a physically tricky job.

    I occasionally help someone I know with one of these bikes and find
    refitting the wheel an unpleasant chore compared to working on a
    derailleur-geared bike.

    I agree the gear cable can be left connected while changing a tyre or tube.
    Saves puzzling with the connecting bits. The gear cable doesn't have to be
    disconnected even if a roller brake is fitted.

    Quoted message said:

    If a
    roller brake is fitted, the brake cable has to be detached from the
    wheel to get the tyre and tube out. But this cable can be easily
    detached and reattached without tools.

    A spanner is required if the roller brake is anchored to a bracket on the
    frame.

    ~PB

  15. In news:[email hidden],
    Pete Biggs <[email hidden]> tweaked the
    Babbage-Engine to tell us:

    Quoted message said:

    It won't be easy for a lot of the target market for this sort of
    bike. It's not that obvious what should be done with the roller
    brake (if there is one), and tensioning the chain correctly, while
    centering the wheel, while tightening the wheel nuts evenly, is a
    physically tricky job.
    I occasionally help someone I know with one of these bikes and find
    refitting the wheel an unpleasant chore compared to working on a
    derailleur-geared bike.

    <AOL>

    Lt. Col. Larrington (retd.) has a Nexus-equipped bike and it took him and me
    half an afternoon's-worth of swearing to fail to track down a slow puncture
    in his rear tyre.

    --
    Dave Larrington
    <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk>
    "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from
    a yo-yo" - Enoch Root.

  16. Pete Biggs said:

    I occasionally help someone I know with one of these bikes and find
    refitting the wheel an unpleasant chore compared to working on a
    derailleur-geared bike.

    This is true, but cleaning the sprockets and associated gubbins on a
    derailleur bike is an unpleasant chore compared to leaving the hub bike
    in the garage and not bothering. You choose, you lose...

    Pete.
    --
    Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
    Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
    Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
    net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

  17. Peter Clinch said:
    Pete Biggs said:

    I occasionally help someone I know with one of these bikes and find
    refitting the wheel an unpleasant chore compared to working on a
    derailleur-geared bike.

    This is true, but cleaning the sprockets and associated gubbins on a
    derailleur bike is an unpleasant chore compared to leaving the hub
    bike in the garage and not bothering. You choose, you lose...

    True that they require less regular maintenance, as I said already. A
    roller brake also saves some cleaning as you don't get grey sludge from rim
    braking in the rain.

    The fact that the maintenance when it is eventually required is more of a
    pain, balances it out (if you do your own maintenance).

    ~PB

  18. Pete Biggs said:


    A spanner is required if the roller brake is anchored to a bracket on the
    frame.

    True, I was thinking about the cable and completely forgot about the
    reaction arm.

    --
    Andrew

  19. Pete Biggs said:


    one), and tensioning the chain correctly, while centering the wheel, while
    tightening the wheel nuts evenly, is a physically tricky job.

    I use the same technique on the Nexus as I do on the fixie. Tighten one
    nut at a time and walk the wheel as instructed by Sheldon under the
    paragraph labelled "Rear Wheel Installation" on the following page ...
    <http://sheldonbrown.com/fixed.html>

    --
    Don Whybrow

    Sequi Bonum Non Time

    "The war isn't the war between the blacks and the whites, the
    liberals and the conservatives, or the Federation and the
    Romulans. It's between the clueful and the clueless." (an
    anonymous poster on cypherpunks list)

  20. On Mon, 19 May 2008 20:09:59 +0200, "Pete Biggs"
    <[email hidden]> said in
    <[email hidden]>:

    Quoted message said:

    tensioning the chain correctly, while centering the wheel, while
    tightening the wheel nuts evenly, is a physically tricky job.

    Ah, takes me back to the days of the Sturmey-Archer 3-speed :-)

    Guy
    --
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

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