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intersting testimony

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Mountain Bikes
Published
26 June 2004
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J G
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  1. Had the displeasure of a court case Thursday...... Motor Vehicle vs. Cyclist
    = rider died.

    Please tell the court what the driver of the vehicle told you on the scene.
    She said "she didn't see him"
    At the scene, did you notice anything in the area that would have obstructed
    her vision?
    No.
    Was the cyclist traveling on the right side of the road and as far to the
    right as practicable.
    Based upon my observation of the skid marks, debris field, damage to the
    vehicle, and position of rest of the cyclist and cycle, I would conclude
    that indeed he was.
    And was the bicycle properly equipped with the state required safety
    equipment, reflectors bell, etc.?
    _Before_ the wreck, yes.
    Was the rider using any additional safety gear?
    Yes, he was wearing a helmet, he had a blinking light affixed to his
    back-pack, he also had a rear-viewing mirror attached to his left handlebar
    end, also he was wearing a very brightly colored riding shirt and short
    What were the traffic conditions at the time of the crash.
    light traffic flow, clear skies, good visibility, dry roads.
    Thank you, no further questions.

    <FFwd>

    Judge: "I find you guilty of the charge of failure to maintain safe lookout,
    Fifty dollar fine, plus court costs"

    On the way out I hear the lawyer tell the widow: Okay, that is done now we
    can go after them in the civil courts.

    Lesson to learn here:
    Reflectors may be gay but if you get squashed by a car and don't have them,
    it could be a way out for the driver

  2. JG says:

    Quoted message said:

    Judge: "I find you guilty of the charge of failure to maintain safe lookout,
    Fifty dollar fine, plus court costs"

    [censored] should be forced to ride to work for a month - give him a taste of the
    other side of the coin....

    Steve

  3. Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Judge: "I find you guilty of the charge of failure to maintain safe


    lookout,

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Fifty dollar fine, plus court costs"

    [censored] should be forced to ride to work for a month - give him a taste of


    the

    Quoted message said:

    other side of the coin....

    This case just set everything up for the Civil case. It determined fault,
    and responsibility.

    I think the driver may find the Civil case to be much more punitive. Sadly
    it will probably be several years before that case is heard. Unless the
    Insurance Co. settles out of court.

  4. Stephen Baker said:

    JG says:

    Quoted message said:

    Judge: "I find you guilty of the charge of failure to maintain safe lookout,
    Fifty dollar fine, plus court costs"

    [censored] should be forced to ride to work for a month - give him a taste of the
    other side of the coin....

    No, the [censored] should be convicted of negligent homicide.

    Greg

    --
    Destroy your safe and happy lives
    Before it is too late
    The battles we fought were long and hard
    Just not to be consumed by rock'n'roll

  5. "J G" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Had the displeasure of a court case Thursday...... Motor Vehicle vs.


    Cyclist

    Quoted message said:

    = rider died.

    Please tell the court what the driver of the vehicle told you on the


    scene.

    Quoted message said:

    She said "she didn't see him"
    At the scene, did you notice anything in the area that would have


    obstructed

    Quoted message said:

    her vision?
    No.
    Was the cyclist traveling on the right side of the road and as far to the
    right as practicable.
    Based upon my observation of the skid marks, debris field, damage to the
    vehicle, and position of rest of the cyclist and cycle, I would conclude
    that indeed he was.
    And was the bicycle properly equipped with the state required safety
    equipment, reflectors bell, etc.?
    _Before_ the wreck, yes.
    Was the rider using any additional safety gear?
    Yes, he was wearing a helmet, he had a blinking light affixed to his
    back-pack, he also had a rear-viewing mirror attached to his left


    handlebar

    Quoted message said:

    end, also he was wearing a very brightly colored riding shirt and short
    What were the traffic conditions at the time of the crash.
    light traffic flow, clear skies, good visibility, dry roads.
    Thank you, no further questions.

    <FFwd>

    Judge: "I find you guilty of the charge of failure to maintain safe


    lookout,

    Quoted message said:

    Fifty dollar fine, plus court costs"

    On the way out I hear the lawyer tell the widow: Okay, that is done now we
    can go after them in the civil courts.

    Lesson to learn here:
    Reflectors may be gay but if you get squashed by a car and don't have


    them,

    Quoted message said:

    it could be a way out for the driver

    This is exactly why I choose to be politically incorrect and ride on the
    sidewalk whenever possible. We may have the "right" to be on the street,
    but the difference in mass between a bike and a motor vehicle trump rights
    and political correctness.

    But of course, the best solution is to ride in the woods....then everybody's
    happy. Oh, except MV...lol.

  6. "mfgp" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    This is exactly why I choose to be politically incorrect and ride on the
    sidewalk whenever possible.

    IME, you are definately MORE at risk of getting struck riding on the
    sidewalk. I don't know what the national statistics on the subject are, but
    I have personally handled several M.V. vs Cycle wrecks and so far 4 out of 5
    have been (experinced) sidewalk riders who THOUGHT they were safer on the
    sidewalk than the road. Except for the 6th, wherein the cyclist hit the car.
    Dumb-ass kid came screaming down a hill, out into the road, and smacked
    right into the side of the car. Driver was completely freaked out despite
    she was in _no_way_ at fault. <sigh>

    Quoted message said:

    But of course, the best solution is to ride in the woods....then


    everybody's

    Quoted message said:

    happy.

    This person (RIP) was a roadie.

  7. "J G" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "mfgp" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    This is exactly why I choose to be politically incorrect and ride on the
    sidewalk whenever possible.

    IME, you are definately MORE at risk of getting struck riding on the
    sidewalk. I don't know what the national statistics on the subject are,


    but

    Quoted message said:

    I have personally handled several M.V. vs Cycle wrecks and so far 4 out of


    5

    Quoted message said:

    have been (experinced) sidewalk riders who THOUGHT they were safer on the
    sidewalk than the road. Except for the 6th, wherein the cyclist hit the


    car.

    Quoted message said:

    Dumb-ass kid came screaming down a hill, out into the road, and smacked
    right into the side of the car. Driver was completely freaked out despite
    she was in _no_way_ at fault. <sigh>

    Quoted message said:

    But of course, the best solution is to ride in the woods....then


    everybody's

    Quoted message said:

    happy.

    This person (RIP) was a roadie.

    I find that interesting. In my experience, that is not the case. I was
    struck riding on the road about 10 years ago, which is why I ride the
    sidewalk now when possible. I've had a number of close calls with vehicles
    in the past 10 years, and all are on the road. But of course, you didn't
    say they were struck on the sidewalk--you said they were experienced
    sidewalk riders, but didn't state where the accident occurred. Please be
    more specific, as this is a very iteresting subject.

    You are definitely at risk of being hit crossing intersections and driveways
    while riding sidewalks. Anytime you leave the sidewalk and enter any place
    cars drive, you are probably much more likely to be struck because drivers
    don't generally look on the sidewalk and the rider appears to come out of
    nowhere. But of course, those type of risks are still on the street. Cars
    don't generally come up on the sidewalk, but they do cross it.

    The accident I had was really stupid. Got popped with a pick up truck
    mirror while riding a good 2 feet off the road on the shoulder. The driver,
    of couse, did not bother to stop. Fortunately, I was young enough to shake
    it off. Another couple inches would have been a different story. I feel
    much safer as far as possible away from the traffic lane, and am very
    cautious whenever I come anywhere near the road. I only venture to the
    road when absolutely necessary. That incident left a huge impression (not
    literally...).

  8. "J G" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Lesson to learn here:
    Reflectors may be gay but if you get squashed by a car and don't have


    them,

    Quoted message said:

    it could be a way out for the driver

    Yeah, glad he had those reflectors, that $50 fine will really stick it to
    the driver...

    What a joke...

    Chris

  9. "mfgp" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:

    But of course, you didn't say they were struck on the sidewalk--

    No, I didn't.

    Quoted message said:

    Please be more specific, as this is a very iteresting subject.

    As these are pending cases, That is as specific as I can get.

    Quoted message said:

    you are probably much more likely to be struck because drivers
    don't generally look on the sidewalk and the rider appears to come out of
    nowhere.

    Bingo!

  10. "ctg" <n/a@n/a.com> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Yeah, glad he had those reflectors, that $50 fine will really stick it to
    the driver...

    Quoted message said:

    What a joke...

    You obviously missed the part about this being specifically the traffic
    violation disposition of the case.
    The Civil Suit will follow, that is where they loose the ranch.

  11. mfgp said:

    "J G" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "mfgp" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    This is exactly why I choose to be politically incorrect and ride
    on the sidewalk whenever possible.

    IME, you are definately MORE at risk of getting struck riding on the
    sidewalk. I don't know what the national statistics on the subject
    are, but I have personally handled several M.V. vs Cycle wrecks and
    so far 4 out of 5 have been (experinced) sidewalk riders who THOUGHT
    they were safer on the sidewalk than the road. Except for the 6th,
    wherein the cyclist hit the car. Dumb-ass kid came screaming down a
    hill, out into the road, and smacked right into the side of the car.
    Driver was completely freaked out despite she was in _no_way_ at
    fault. <sigh>

    Quoted message said:

    But of course, the best solution is to ride in the woods....then
    everybody's happy.

    This person (RIP) was a roadie.

    I find that interesting. In my experience, that is not the case. I
    was struck riding on the road about 10 years ago, which is why I ride
    the sidewalk now when possible. I've had a number of close calls
    with vehicles in the past 10 years, and all are on the road. But of
    course, you didn't say they were struck on the sidewalk--you said
    they were experienced sidewalk riders, but didn't state where the
    accident occurred. Please be more specific, as this is a very
    iteresting subject.

    This is alt.mountain-bike. Ask your question in rec.bicycles.misc and see
    what they ("the roadies"😉 say.

    Bill "just don your flamesuit first" S.

  12. Its simple, before you get your driving licence, you spend a month in all
    weathers riding on a bike, if you cant hack it, no licence, tough [censored]. I'm
    an "EX" motorcyclist and put up with [censored] drivers for years. The only
    advantage I had was nobody could keep up to drive into the back of me.

    I blame the driving schools, what difference do reflectors have in daylight,
    f*%k all, the driver was negligent, never looked. Cyclists are classed as
    pedestrians, car drivers are driving weapons of mass destruction END OF
    STORY.

    Ash
    "ctg" <n/a@n/a.com> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "J G" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Lesson to learn here:
    Reflectors may be gay but if you get squashed by a car and don't have


    them,

    Quoted message said:

    it could be a way out for the driver

    Yeah, glad he had those reflectors, that $50 fine will really stick it to
    the driver...

    What a joke...

    Chris

  13. "J G" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "ctg" <n/a@n/a.com> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Yeah, glad he had those reflectors, that $50 fine will really stick it


    to

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    the driver...

    Quoted message said:

    What a joke...

    You obviously missed the part about this being specifically the traffic
    violation disposition of the case.
    The Civil Suit will follow, that is where they loose the ranch.

    No, I didn't. The fact that one can kill another person by not paying
    attention and the only criminal punishment is a $50 fine is a joke.

    Yes, they may be hurt in a civil case but there should be more protection
    for cyclists in the criminal code.

    Chris

  14. "Ashley Saunby" wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Cyclists are classed as pedestrians,

    NOT

    Sec. 21-197. Traffic laws apply to persons riding bicycles.
    Every person riding a bicycle upon a roadway shall be granted all of the
    rights and shall be subject to all of the duties applicable to the driver of
    a vehicle by this chapter, except as to special regulations in this chapter
    and except as to those provisions of this chapter which by their nature can
    have no application.
    (Ord. No. 2155, § 15-20-75; Code 1967, § 10-3)
    State law references: Similar provisions, T.C.A. § 55-8-172.

    http://livepublish.municode.com/1/lpext.dll/Infobase17/1/1fef/2374/237e

  15. "ctg" <n/a@n/a.com> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    You obviously missed the part about this being specifically the traffic
    violation disposition of the case.
    The Civil Suit will follow, that is where they loose the ranch.

    No, I didn't. The fact that one can kill another person by not paying
    attention and the only criminal punishment is a $50 fine is a joke.

    This was TRAFFIC Court, it is up to the D.A. to file the criminal charges,
    based upon the outcome of the traffic case.

    Quoted message said:

    Yes, they may be hurt in a civil case but there should be more protection
    for cyclists in the criminal code.

    Precisely, we are not talking about the Criminal Code here, just the Traffic
    Code.

  16. "J G" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:


    I have personally handled several M.V. vs Cycle wrecks

    Uh, Clyde? You might make clear that in this context M.V. means "motor vehicle".

    ;-)

    CC

  17. "Corvus Corvax" wrote in message > "J G" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I have personally handled several M.V. vs Cycle wrecks

    Quoted message said:

    Uh, Clyde?

    Yes.......

    Quoted message said:

    You might make clear that in this context M.V. means "motor vehicle".

    Is there much of a difference?-(

  18. mfgp said:


    "J G" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    IME, you are definately MORE at risk of getting struck riding on the
    sidewalk. <snip>

    I find that interesting. In my experience, that is not the case. I was
    struck riding on the road about 10 years ago, which is why I ride the
    sidewalk now when possible. I've had a number of close calls with vehicles
    in the past 10 years, and all are on the road. But of course, you didn't
    say they were struck on the sidewalk--you said they were experienced
    sidewalk riders, but didn't state where the accident occurred. Please be
    more specific, as this is a very iteresting subject.

    You are definitely at risk of being hit crossing intersections and driveways
    while riding sidewalks. Anytime you leave the sidewalk and enter any place
    cars drive, you are probably much more likely to be struck because drivers
    don't generally look on the sidewalk and the rider appears to come out of
    nowhere. But of course, those type of risks are still on the street. Cars
    don't generally come up on the sidewalk, but they do cross it.

    When you're riding on a sidewalk, every driveway is an "intersection"
    - one that most motorists won't check before crossing. Or at least,
    they won't look beyond the distance that they'd expect someone moving
    at a pedestrian pace to be. If you ride very, very slowly on the
    sidewalk it's not horribly dangerous - but if you are moving at any
    reasonable cycling speed, it's a different story.

    Then there are all the other sidewalk users, none of which are likely
    to expect a rapidly moving bicycle to pass them. People, dogs, cats,
    whatever - will cross a sidewalk from any direction without a second
    thought.

    On the road, chances are drivers and pedestrians are going to look for
    vehicular traffic before pulling out. That's not ALWAYS the case
    (something I can unfortunately attest to from personal experience),
    but the odds are much better on the road.

    Quoted message said:

    The accident I had was really stupid. Got popped with a pick up truck
    mirror while riding a good 2 feet off the road on the shoulder. The driver,
    of couse, did not bother to stop. Fortunately, I was young enough to shake
    it off. Another couple inches would have been a different story. I feel
    much safer as far as possible away from the traffic lane, and am very
    cautious whenever I come anywhere near the road. I only venture to the
    road when absolutely necessary. That incident left a huge impression (not
    literally...).

    FWIW, this type of accident makes up a very small percentage of the
    overall bike/car accident statistic (just a few %), though it's the
    one that most new cyclists tend to worry most about.

    Mark Hickey
    Habanero Cycles
    http://www.habcycles.com
    Home of the $695 ti frame

  19. I'm in the UK, but yes I think your traffic laws are probably similar to
    ours.

    Ash

    "J G" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Ashley Saunby" wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Cyclists are classed as pedestrians,

    NOT

    Sec. 21-197. Traffic laws apply to persons riding bicycles.
    Every person riding a bicycle upon a roadway shall be granted all of the
    rights and shall be subject to all of the duties applicable to the driver


    of

    Quoted message said:

    a vehicle by this chapter, except as to special regulations in this


    chapter

    Quoted message said:

    and except as to those provisions of this chapter which by their nature


    can

    Quoted message said:

    have no application.
    (Ord. No. 2155, § 15-20-75; Code 1967, § 10-3)
    State law references: Similar provisions, T.C.A. § 55-8-172.

    http://livepublish.municode.com/1/lpext.dll/Infobase17/1/1fef/2374/237e

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