Is cold setting absolutely necessary?

David:

You can spread the rear triangle every time you replace the rear wheel.
However, it'll be a pain in the ass. If you get a flat you'll be
struggling to get the wheel in and out.

Also, the dropouts are not going to be perfectly parallel. When they
cold set the rear triangle, they also bend the dropout slightly in so
that they'll be parallel to each other. This is the most important
aspect of cold setting. Otherwise, the dropouts will be pointing out at
a slight angle when you spread the frame open. when you put the wheels
on, you'll be exerting pressure against the dropouts which can
eventually cause them to brake.

If there is a shop that can do this, they should not charge you more
than $20 to #30 bucks and it is a really easy thing for them to do.
You'll be happier with it. The mid 80's miyata frames are pretty nice
and worth keeping, in my opinion. If I had one I would definitely have
a bike shop cold set it.

Andres

David Kerber said:

I have a mid-80's steel-framed 14-speed (2x7) Miyata road bike which

I'm

Quoted message said:

thinking about updating to a modern 9-speed drivetrain (using used

and

Quoted message said:

spare components, of course; new would cost as much as buying a new
bike) for my spare road bike. The rear spacing is obviously

different,

Quoted message said:

but is easy to spread enough to put the wheel in. Is it really
necessary to cold-set the rear, or it that just for convenience so I
don't have to bend them out everytime I take the wheel in and out?

Please, no comments about whether or not I should even doing this
conversion: I'm doing it because it's fun and I've got lots of parts

Quoted message said:

sitting around, not because it's the most efficient way to get

another

Quoted message said:

bike.

--
Remove the ns_ from if replying by e-mail (but keep posts in the
newsgroups if possible).

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

David:

You can spread the rear triangle every time you replace the rear wheel.
However, it'll be a pain in the ass. If you get a flat you'll be
struggling to get the wheel in and out.

This part's not really a big deal for me.

Quoted message said:

Also, the dropouts are not going to be perfectly parallel. When they
cold set the rear triangle, they also bend the dropout slightly in so
that they'll be parallel to each other. This is the most important
aspect of cold setting. Otherwise, the dropouts will be pointing out at
a slight angle when you spread the frame open. when you put the wheels
on, you'll be exerting pressure against the dropouts which can
eventually cause them to brake.

I hadn't thought about this issue...

Quoted message said:

If there is a shop that can do this, they should not charge you more
than $20 to #30 bucks and it is a really easy thing for them to do.
You'll be happier with it. The mid 80's miyata frames are pretty nice
and worth keeping, in my opinion. If I had one I would definitely have
a bike shop cold set it.

Thanks for the suggestions; I'll look around...

Quoted message said:

Andres

David Kerber said:

I have a mid-80's steel-framed 14-speed (2x7) Miyata road bike which

I'm

Quoted message said:

thinking about updating to a modern 9-speed drivetrain (using used

and

Quoted message said:

spare components, of course; new would cost as much as buying a new
bike) for my spare road bike. The rear spacing is obviously

different,

Quoted message said:

but is easy to spread enough to put the wheel in. Is it really
necessary to cold-set the rear, or it that just for convenience so I
don't have to bend them out everytime I take the wheel in and out?

Please, no comments about whether or not I should even doing this
conversion: I'm doing it because it's fun and I've got lots of parts

Quoted message said:

sitting around, not because it's the most efficient way to get

another

Quoted message said:

bike.

--
Remove the ns_ from if replying by e-mail (but keep posts in the
newsgroups if possible).

David Kerber said:

I have a mid-80's steel-framed 14-speed (2x7) Miyata road bike which

I'm

Quoted message said:

thinking about updating to a modern 9-speed drivetrain .

Quoted message said:

Is it really
necessary to cold-set the rear, or it that just for convenience so I
don't have to bend them out everytime I take the wheel in and out?

I have two 80's steel bikes that I've upgraded to 9-sp. I had the first
one cold set at a LBS (only about $15), and for the second one I just
shoved the 9-sp wheel in. No problems with either. Sheldon says it's ok
not to cold set a steel frame if you're only going from 126 to 130mm.
It may be worthwhile though to have it done and have the dropout and
der hanger alignment checked. If you have a good shop (with the proper
alignment tools) and the cost is reasonable, it's probably worth doing.
Art Harris

David asks-<< I have a mid-80's steel-framed 14-speed (2x7) Miyata road bike
which I'm
thinking about updating to a modern 9-speed drivetrain (using used and
spare components, of course; new would cost as much as buying a new
bike) for my spare road bike. The rear spacing is obviously different,
but is easy to spread enough to put the wheel in. Is it really
necessary to cold-set the rear, or it that just for convenience so I
don't have to bend them out everytime I take the wheel in and out? >><BR><BR>

I answer-for convenience and also to prevent possible frame breakage. You are
forcing the dropouts parallel with the rear wheel, and cold setting is really
easy, cheap and does not damage anything.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Quoted message said:

If there is a shop that can do this, they should not charge you more
than $20 to #30 bucks and it is a really easy thing for them to do.

Just curious...how do they do this? What are the tools and techniques
involved? TIA

David Kerber said:

I have a mid-80's steel-framed 14-speed (2x7) Miyata road bike which I'm
thinking about updating to a modern 9-speed drivetrain (using used and
spare components, of course; new would cost as much as buying a new
bike) for my spare road bike. The rear spacing is obviously different,
but is easy to spread enough to put the wheel in. Is it really
necessary to cold-set the rear, or it that just for convenience so I
don't have to bend them out everytime I take the wheel in and out?

I've been doing this w/o cold setting for over a year on an old Raleigh
Pro (Reynolds 531; Campy dropouts). It's not hard at all to get the
wheel in and out.

As has been mentioned previously in this group, this puts strain on the
axle, but it's in the opposite direction of the strain the drive puts on
the axle.

I doubt that the flex put on the dropouts is more harmful than bending
them into the same position (i.e. cold-setting).

Myself, I don't worry about it. Maybe someday I'll do it myself.

Sheldon has a nice web page on the subject:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing.html

Mark Janeba

David Kerber said:

I have a mid-80's steel-framed 14-speed (2x7) Miyata road bike which I'm
thinking about updating to a modern 9-speed drivetrain (using used and
spare components, of course; new would cost as much as buying a new
bike) for my spare road bike. The rear spacing is obviously different,
but is easy to spread enough to put the wheel in. Is it really
necessary to cold-set the rear, or it that just for convenience so I
don't have to bend them out everytime I take the wheel in and out?

I've been doing this w/o cold setting for over a year on an old Raleigh
Pro (Reynolds 531; Campy dropouts). It's not hard at all to get the
wheel in and out.

As has been mentioned previously in this group, this puts strain on the
axle, but it's in the opposite direction of the strain the drive puts on
the axle.

I doubt that the flex put on the dropouts is more harmful than bending
them into the same position (i.e. cold-setting).

Myself, I don't worry about it. Maybe someday I'll do it myself.

Sheldon has a nice web page on the subject:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing.html

Mark Janeba

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 07:58:10 -0500, David Kerber

ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net said:

I have a mid-80's steel-framed 14-speed (2x7) Miyata road bike which I'm
thinking about updating to a modern 9-speed drivetrain (using used and
spare components, of course; new would cost as much as buying a new
bike) for my spare road bike. The rear spacing is obviously different,
but is easy to spread enough to put the wheel in. Is it really
necessary to cold-set the rear, or it that just for convenience so I
don't have to bend them out everytime I take the wheel in and out?

---------------From a thread I posted to in 2001----------------------

In article <5c7lu9.qgl...@cheetah>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

I want to convert a set of wheels from 7 to 9 speed. All I was going to do
was swap out the 7sp freehub with an 8sp, respace the axel and re-dish. How
much re-dishing will be required (5mm ?) and is this likley cause a problem
wrt spoke length.

Going from a 7 to 8/9 speed means widening the effective axle length
from
126mm to 130mm, all on the right (drive) side. Thus the wheel must be
redished
2mm to the right. Note that I just performed this modification to an
old
Shimano 105 rear hub last winter.

Since I upgraded my old Trek 1400 from 7 to 8 speeds I've been waiting
(for a
year now) for a reoccurance of the old "cold setting" debate. I now
have a
full season of riding around on a bonded aluminum frame originally
spaced at
126mm with a 130mm rear hub. I did nothing to the frame to accomodate
the
widened hub. It's just a little harder to snap the wheel into the
frame now.
I've had NO problems.

BTW, I once did the trig to figure out the effect of adding 2mm to the
short
side of a right triangle that approximates the dimensions of a typical
bicycle's rear triangle. As I recall, it changes the angle of the rear
dropout
by about 1/4 degree. I'm guessing most frame builders would be happy
to get
the dropouts parallel to plus or minus 1/4 degree.

--------------End of quote------------------------

As I usually mention when this subject comes up, have we all forgotten
that the original Dura Ace 8-speed rear hubs came with conical
locknuts to assist in snapping them into 126mm rear triangles?

BTW, I'm still riding around on my Trek 1400 with the 130mm hub
without problems. It's my beater.

jeverett3<AT>earthlink<DOT>net http://home.earthlink.net/~jeverett3

David Kerber said:

I have a mid-80's steel-framed 14-speed (2x7) Miyata road bike which
I'm thinking about updating to a modern 9-speed drivetrain (using
used and spare components, of course; new would cost as much as
buying a new bike) for my spare road bike. The rear spacing is
obviously different, but is easy to spread enough to put the wheel
in. Is it really necessary to cold-set the rear, or it that just
for convenience so I don't have to bend them out every time I take
the wheel in and out?

It isn't only the spacing that changes when you do this, but the angle
of the dropouts with respect to the jam nuts on the axle. If the
dropouts are not parallel, then they are under bending stress may
crack. I suspect some of that is involved in most dropout failures
anyway. Beyond that, not all rear triangles bend uniformly about
center so the rear wheel may be out of plane with the frame.

This is not a difficult task for someone with the tools and skills.
Do it. If you are adept at such things, you can do it yourself.
Measure the current spacing of the rear end. Lay frame on its side,
placing one foot at the base of the far 'chainstay' and pull the near
one until half the spread is achieved. Turn the bicycle over and
repeat. Then use a large crescent wrench to bend the dropouts
parallel. As I said, this takes a bit of feel and understanding of
the materials and a shop that does frame work can do this in a jiff
with a couple of special tools, especially the dropout alignment tool.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

From: David Kerber

Quoted message said:

Please, no comments about whether or not I should even doing this
conversion (snip)

Should, no comment <g>.

What is your DO width at the rear now? Might work, or it might be a pain to
change wheels. Give it a try before full build up and see what goes. I have
access to a couple of good shops; personally, I'd take it in for alignment
check/correction and get the DO's at both ends set parallel, and I trust these
folks to do a little gentle cold-setting to make wheel changes easy, so I'd do
that, too. Worth it to prevent undue stress on DO's and general peace of mind
IMHO, and also "easier than after it's built up". --TP

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If there is a shop that can do this, they should not charge

you more

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

than $20 to #30 bucks and it is a really easy thing for them

to do.

Quoted message said:

Just curious...how do they do this? What are the tools and

techniques

Quoted message said:

involved? TIA

You need a piece of string, a caliper/ruler and dropout alignment
tool. Personally, I just place the frame on the floor and pull up
on the stay until I get a small amount of set. Flip it over and
do the same. Then I measure the distance between the drop outs.
When I get to 130, I put in the alignment tool and get the
dropouts parallel. Then I run a string around the head tube,
with the ends pulled back to the dropouts. Measure the distance
between the string and the seat tube on either side, then adjust
the stays accordingly to make sure they are centered on the seat
tube and that the distance between the seat tube and strings is
equal. I do the last step in a vice, if one is available and the
frame is bare. This has worked for me, but I would recommend
that you go to Sheldon's site to get the real scoop.

This is an easy task except when bending very light steel (you
have to be wary of breaking bridges) or very stiff aluminum. I
cold set a couple of Cannondales (and probably voided the
warranties). With a limber steel bike, cold setting to get the
additional 4mm is not really needed. With the stiff Cannondales
that were spot on at 126mm, wheel changes really were a pain, and
cold setting to 130mm made things much easier. -- Jay Beattie.

David Kerber asked:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have a mid-80's steel-framed 14-speed (2x7) Miyata road bike which
I'm thinking about updating to a modern 9-speed drivetrain (using
used and spare components, of course; new would cost as much as
buying a new bike) for my spare road bike. The rear spacing is
obviously different, but is easy to spread enough to put the wheel
in. Is it really necessary to cold-set the rear, or it that just
for convenience so I don't have to bend them out every time I take
the wheel in and out?

Jobst Brandt replied:

Quoted message said:

It isn't only the spacing that changes when you do this, but the angle
of the dropouts with respect to the jam nuts on the axle. If the
dropouts are not parallel, then they are under bending stress may
crack. I suspect some of that is involved in most dropout failures
anyway.

This is frequently repeated folklore.

When I was putting together my article on this topic:

http://sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing.html

I did the math on this. For a spread from 126 to 130 mm, as David
envisions, the angular difference is only 1/3 of a degree. I doubt that
any of the normal tools used for measuring dropout parallelism have
such fine resolution.

Here's a relevant quote from my article:

"Problems attributed to misaligned fork ends include bent/broken axles.
As it happens, the direction that the alignment changes when you spread
the rear triangle is such that the alignment error is unlikely to cause
this, because the stress it puts on the axle is opposite the stress
created by the chain drive. Alignment errors in the opposite direction
would be much more likely to cause problems."

Sheldon "Learned Trigonometry In High School" Brown
+---------------------------------------------------------------+
| Anyone who can't use a slide rule is a cultural illiterate, |
| and should not be allowed to vote. --Robert A. Heinlein |
+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Sheldon Brown said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have a mid-80's steel-framed 14-speed (2x7) Miyata road bike
which I'm thinking about updating to a modern 9-speed drivetrain
(using used and spare components, of course; new would cost as
much as buying a new bike) for my spare road bike. The rear
spacing is obviously different, but is easy to spread enough to
put the wheel in. Is it really necessary to cold-set the rear, or
it that just for convenience so I don't have to bend them out
every time I take the wheel in and out?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It isn't only the spacing that changes when you do this, but the
angle of the dropouts with respect to the jam nuts on the axle. If
the dropouts are not parallel, then they are under bending stress
may crack. I suspect some of that is involved in most dropout
failures anyway.

Quoted message said:

This is frequently repeated folklore.

Quoted message said:

When I was putting together my article on this topic:

Quoted message said:

http://sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing.html

Quoted message said:

I did the math on this. For a spread from 126 to 130 mm, as David
envisions, the angular difference is only 1/3 of a degree. I doubt
that any of the normal tools used for measuring dropout parallelism
have such fine resolution.

The Campagnolo dropout alignment tool can do this to at least a tenth
of a degree and I'm sure you have seen the two cup faces align to that
accuracy or better. You may be right about the dropout angle not
being important but the ancients felt it was important and came up
with that pair of instruments that make this alignment precise. As
someone already mentioned axle flex from chain tension works the other
way and the combination of these forces, dropout alignment and axle
flex surely must have a negative effect on dropout durability.

Quoted message said:

Here's a relevant quote from my article:

Quoted message said:

"Problems attributed to misaligned fork ends include bent/broken
axles. As it happens, the direction that the alignment changes when
you spread the rear triangle is such that the alignment error is
unlikely to cause this, because the stress it puts on the axle is
opposite the stress created by the chain drive. Alignment errors in
the opposite direction would be much more likely to cause problems."

Axle failure is clearly a fault of the right wheel bearing being too
far inboard leaving a long free end to bend with chain load. That is
one thing that Shimano cassette hubs fixed admirably although others
just beefed up the axle.

Quoted message said:

Sheldon "Learned Trigonometry In High School" Brown

Isn't that something Roy Rogers developed for animal care?

http://www.royrogers.com/

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 07:58:10 -0500, David Kerber

ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net said:

... Is it really
necessary to cold-set the rear, or it that just for convenience so I
don't have to bend them out everytime I take the wheel in and out?

As pointed out by others, getting the dropouts correctly spaced and
aligned will both make the job of fixing flats easier, and will make
the frame less likely to have problems due to being ridden with the
dropouts under continual bending stress. I used to be in the camp
which held that this was a minor issue, but recently came to the
conclusion that it's worth being concerned about when I found a
failure in progress on a used bike which had apparently been ridden
for a while with a 7-speed rear wheel jammed into a frame that had
been built for 5. The tab on the right dropout was cracked at the
point where it entered the chainstay. At first, I thought it was just
a crack in the paint, but on closer examination the crack was visibly
into the metal all the way across the top of the tab and partway down
both sides. The frame was nothing special, so the bike became a parts
donor for others.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 07:58:10 -0500, David Kerber

ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net said:

... Is it really
necessary to cold-set the rear, or it that just for convenience so I
don't have to bend them out everytime I take the wheel in and out?

As pointed out by others, getting the dropouts correctly spaced and
aligned will both make the job of fixing flats easier, and will make
the frame less likely to have problems due to being ridden with the
dropouts under continual bending stress. I used to be in the camp
which held that this was a minor issue, but recently came to the
conclusion that it's worth being concerned about when I found a
failure in progress on a used bike which had apparently been ridden
for a while with a 7-speed rear wheel jammed into a frame that had
been built for 5. The tab on the right dropout was cracked at the
point where it entered the chainstay. At first, I thought it was just
a crack in the paint, but on closer examination the crack was visibly
into the metal all the way across the top of the tab and partway down
both sides. The frame was nothing special, so the bike became a parts
donor for others.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 07:58:10 -0500, David Kerber

ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net said:

... Is it really
necessary to cold-set the rear, or it that just for convenience so I
don't have to bend them out everytime I take the wheel in and out?

As pointed out by others, getting the dropouts correctly spaced and
aligned will both make the job of fixing flats easier, and will make
the frame less likely to have problems due to being ridden with the
dropouts under continual bending stress. I used to be in the camp
which held that this was a minor issue, but recently came to the
conclusion that it's worth being concerned about when I found a
failure in progress on a used bike which had apparently been ridden
for a while with a 7-speed rear wheel jammed into a frame that had
been built for 5. The tab on the right dropout was cracked at the
point where it entered the chainstay. At first, I thought it was just
a crack in the paint, but on closer examination the crack was visibly
into the metal all the way across the top of the tab and partway down
both sides. The frame was nothing special, so the bike became a parts
donor for others.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Quoted message said:

Sheldon Brown said:

When I was putting together my article on this topic:
http://sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing.html
I did the math on this. For a spread from 126 to 130 mm, as David
envisions, the angular difference is only 1/3 of a degree. I doubt
that any of the normal tools used for measuring dropout parallelism
have such fine resolution.

The Campagnolo dropout alignment tool can do this to at least a tenth
of a degree and I'm sure you have seen the two cup faces align to that
accuracy or better.

Quoted message said:

Sheldon "Learned Trigonometry In High School" Brown

Isn't that something Roy Rogers developed for animal care?

Trigonometry would be for measuring the horse, not caring for him.[1]

As for alignment, it's been a while since I've seen a picture of the
Campy alignment tool. The ends weren't wider than 2 inches, were they?

If so [being generous], one tenth of a degree misalignment would come
out to 0.0035 inches (3.5 mil) gap at one side of the guage ends while
the other side is touching. I just checked a 3 mil gap on my caliper -
very small, but visible when backlit. So I guess I believe you about
the 1/10 degree, just barely.[2]

Still don't think a 126-130 stretch of chainstays will hurt anything.

[1]For puzzled non-US residents: Roy Rogers was a television icon in
the US in the 1950s. His horse was named "Trigger."

[2]In metric units, generously assuming the alignment tool ends are 5cm
wide, a 1/10 degree misalignment gives about a 1/10 mm gap.

Mark "do the math, don't make fun of it" Janeba

Jobst Brandt said:

...
I think the attached URL explained who "Trigger" was adequately.

Trigger is now holding sew-up tires to rims.

--
Tom Sherman - Near Rock Island

Mark Janeba said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

When I was putting together my article on this topic:
http://sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing.html
I did the math on this. For a spread from 126 to 130 mm, as David
envisions, the angular difference is only 1/3 of a degree. I doubt
that any of the normal tools used for measuring dropout parallelism
have such fine resolution.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The Campagnolo dropout alignment tool can do this to at least a tenth
of a degree and I'm sure you have seen the two cup faces align to that
accuracy or better.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Sheldon "Learned Trigonometry In High School" Brown

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Isn't that something Roy Rogers developed for animal care?

Quoted message said:

Trigonometry would be for measuring the horse, not caring for him.[1]

Quoted message said:

As for alignment, it's been a while since I've seen a picture of the
Campy alignment tool. The ends weren't wider than 2 inches, were
they?

Quoted message said:

If so [being generous], one tenth of a degree misalignment would
come out to 0.0035 inches (3.5 mil) gap at one side of the guage
ends while the other side is touching. I just checked a 3 mil gap
on my caliper - very small, but visible when backlit. So I guess I
believe you about the 1/10 degree, just barely.[2]

You're guessing and haven't used the tool. It is made two identical
halves with finely Machine ground OD and end face. A gap difference of
even 0.002" would be detectable. You can see it at:

http://www.bcltechnologies.com/document/products/drake/samples/multi_column.pdf

on page 11 and 12. This is one of those high precision instruments
that is ultimately simple and has no read-out.

Quoted message said:

Still don't think a 126-130 stretch of chainstays will hurt anything.

I think the attached URL explained who "Trigger" was adequately.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]