Jim Price's death reported on national news



Dave Larrington <[email protected]> wrote:
> I believe a Wise Man once stated that, to the average BRITON,
> Canadians are generally indistinguishable from Americans, and the
> easiest way to tell them apart is to say this to a Canadian...


The british guys I know would definitely object...

--
MfG/Best regards
helmut springer
 
tcmedara wrote:
> "Tim McNamara" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > Ummm, do you actually use the transportation system? This is one of
> > many things about the U.S. transporation system that are broken
> >

> The bicycle centric nature of this newgroup cracks me up sometimes. The US
> has the most effective and reliable transportation system anywhere on the
> planet by nearly every measure.


Oooh... I cringe when one of my fellow Americans says stuff like this.
It is, at least, more complicated than that.

American cities developed along with the automobile; it makes sense
that they are optimized for auto traffic. This makes them very
different from European cities, in many ways.

As a tourist, I sometimes stop to appreciate the skill of guys who
drive oversized vehciles in European cities: garbage trucks, buses,
etc. Their sense of their boundaries is amazing.

In my opinion, what I have seen in Europe is remarkable - - but not
better or worse. It was designed after a different set of
requirements. It cannot be compared to the U.S., apples & oranges.

rsquared
 
Dave Larrington writes:

>> Typically locally we have four lane roads in this town that have
>> essentially polished curbstones beyond which there is dense
>> shrubbery. The speed limit is 35mph but traffic speed is mostly
>> above that. Every once in awhile I see bicyclists of your
>> persuasion riding there to the consternation of drivers who cannot
>> veer into the left lane upon discovering a 15mph bicycle as the car
>> ahead takes advantage of a gap in the left lane.


> When I was learning to drive, I was taught not to overtake until it
> was safe to do so. Although having driven in California, I realise
> that this may not be the case there...


These are four lane roads. What has that to do with having a 15MPH
bicycle directly in front of you after the car ahead has moved into
the left lane with you going at least 35MPH with a another car next to
you? That is the hazard that some bicyclists do not visualize when
they ride on these streets, where car tires normally pass within
inches of the curb (no sidewalk).

Jobst Brandt
 
Luke wrote:

> Where my observation concerned cyclists, I generally agree. Often the
> chauvinistic attitudes and habits of motorists make an otherwise
> enjoyable or routine cycling commute a task to be endured; after a few
> battles of will, profane exchanges, etc., the intimidated would rather
> do without the aggravation of a confrontation and forego their right to
> the road.
>


I agree. But giving in is the problem.

Wayne
Bicycle Driver Empowerment Now
 
(PeteCresswell) wrote:

> Per Wayne Pein:
>
>>My bike is 2 feet wide. Roads are much wider. Therefore, the roads
>>adequately accommodate bikes. It's just that bicycle users feel so
>>inferior that they would rather complain about the system than actually
>>just ride.

>
>
> In SouthEastern Pennsylvania, I can show you many miles of roads that nobody on
> a bike would survive even six months riding.



Do Tarmac Trolls rise out of the pavement to kill you?

Wayne
 
[email protected] wrote:

> Wayne Pein wrote:
>
>
>>Farm
>>equipment travels at 15 mph. I get stuck behind one occasionally when on
>>my bike commuting on a 35 mph 4 lane road.

>
>
> You just explained that your bicycle is 2 feet wide.
> Ever get stuck behind a piece of 2-foot-wide
> farm equipment?
>
> R
>


No. So what's your point?

Wayne
 
[email protected] wrote:


> These are four lane roads. What has that to do with having a 15MPH
> bicycle directly in front of you after the car ahead has moved into
> the left lane with you going at least 35MPH with a another car next to
> you? That is the hazard that some bicyclists do not visualize when
> they ride on these streets, where car tires normally pass within
> inches of the curb (no sidewalk).
>
> Jobst Brandt



I challenge you to cite even one case where a bicyclist was struck from
behind under the conditions you describe.

Wayne
 
Tim McNamara wrote:


> We have to start with the world as it is, not as we'd like it to be.
> Even though cyclists might have the right to use a certain road, the
> conditions of that road may be such that it's not a good idea.
> Militantly antagonizing drivers doesn't help cyclists and can even
> have the effect of disadvantaging us further. While I agree with
> Wayne in principle that cyclists have equal rights of road access in
> most cases (the right pertaining to the human operator of the vehicle
> and not to the vehicle itself), being the equivalent of a Unidigit
> Salute On Wheels just doesn't make things better. Just as we expect
> drivers to be respectful of us, we have to be respectful of them. As
> the saying goes, "it is better to make friends than enemies."



I don't believe riding a bicycle is being disrespectful to motorists. I
don't believe that bus drivers who stop in the lane to pick up and
discharge passengers, delivery truck drivers who block a lane, and farm
equipment drivers who travel at 15 mph are being disrespectful either.

Wayne
Paradigm Change: Expect Delays
 
Wayne Pein writes:

>> These are four lane roads. What has that to do with having a 15MPH
>> bicycle directly in front of you after the car ahead has moved into
>> the left lane with you going at least 35MPH with a another car next
>> to you? That is the hazard that some bicyclists do not visualize
>> when they ride on these streets, where car tires normally pass
>> within inches of the curb (no sidewalk).


> I challenge you to cite even one case where a bicyclist was struck
> from behind under the conditions you describe.


I don't have such information at my fingertips but I can recall
reports of bicyclists hit by cars in Palo Alto. I find interesting
that you cannot visualize how dangerous riding on such a street is.
Just because I cannot readily produce data on injuries should not make
that hazard go away. I have stated what the conditions are as clearly
as I can and as a car driver, I do not want to be put in the position
of coming upon such a bicyclist.

Fortunately diminishingly few bicyclists are blind to this condition,
with the exception, among others, of a local public transit promoter.

Jobst Brandt
 
[email protected] wrote:

> Wayne Pein writes:
>
>
>>I challenge you to cite even one case where a bicyclist was struck
>>from behind under the conditions you describe.

>
>
> I don't have such information at my fingertips but I can recall
> reports of bicyclists hit by cars in Palo Alto. I find interesting
> that you cannot visualize how dangerous riding on such a street is.


Visualizing is the problem. Reality is what is important. The reality is
that bicyclists do not get hit from behind in the mechanism you described.


> Just because I cannot readily produce data on injuries should not make
> that hazard go away. I have stated what the conditions are as clearly
> as I can and as a car driver, I do not want to be put in the position
> of coming upon such a bicyclist.


On a 35 mph road, you should expect to have to come to a complete stop
for a number of reasons. A bicyclist moving at x miles per hour gives
you margin for error. Quit villifying slow traffic and creating
imaginary problems.

Wayne
Expect Delays
 
(PeteCresswell) wrote:

> Per Wayne Pein:
>
>>Do Tarmac Trolls rise out of the pavement to kill you?

>
>
> Take this as it is meant: kindly advice.
>
> Your days are numbered unless you undergo some recalibration vis-a-vis the
> danger presented by automobiles to you.
>
> I've said the same thing to a couple of others - and you won't be the first.


Thanks, but I prefer to live my life with cautious optimism.

I've educated myself to the best bicycling practices.

Wayne
Meteor Insurance Salesman
 
(PeteCresswell) wrote:

> The owners of the vehicles (doesn't matter who was driving - we'll never know
> that...) with more than X Assholes get added to a publicly-available list along
> with each award's accompanying text/time/date.


I've done my own.

http://drivetoschoolhallofshame.com
 
SMS <[email protected]> wrote:

>(PeteCresswell) wrote:
>
>> The owners of the vehicles (doesn't matter who was driving - we'll never know
>> that...) with more than X Assholes get added to a publicly-available list along
>> with each award's accompanying text/time/date.

>
>I've done my own.
>
>http://drivetoschoolhallofshame.com


Nice!

Most dangerous time/place for me to pedal is by the school at drop-off
or pickup hour.... S-c-a-r-y!
--
Live simply so that others may simply live
 
In article <[email protected]>,
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Wayne Pein writes:
>
> >> These are four lane roads. What has that to do with having a 15MPH
> >> bicycle directly in front of you after the car ahead has moved into
> >> the left lane with you going at least 35MPH with a another car next
> >> to you? That is the hazard that some bicyclists do not visualize
> >> when they ride on these streets, where car tires normally pass
> >> within inches of the curb (no sidewalk).

>
> > I challenge you to cite even one case where a bicyclist was struck
> > from behind under the conditions you describe.




Are you advocating that such a situation doesn't pose a danger to the
cyclist? Are statistics required to confirm a seemingly simple concept:
that speeding motorists encountering an unexpected obstacle (i.e., a
cyclist) have a greater likelihood of involving themselves in accidents
than otherwise? Leave alone one's right to ride the road, and
motorists' culpability in the outcome, for the time being, strictly
from the perspective of maintaining one's health, the conditions
described above are to be avoided.

But, by your insistence on stats, it appears you don't consider this
situation sufficiently perilous. Well, "there are lies, damn lies, and
there are statistics."

From my cursory acquaintance with the causes of local (urban Toronto)
bicycle/auto accidents, the most common factor among them was that the
cyclist was riding from the sidewalk onto the roadway at the time.
Typically, the cyclist rode out into traffic and into the path of a
vehicle. Most sidewalk cyclists are novices or children, and don't
apprehend the myriad hazards of their habits. And, indeed, since the
dangers of traffic seem remote among the pedestrians, they may be
encouraged in their misconceptions.

But even the most inexperienced rider has little trouble viscerally
perceiving the consequences of a speeding auto motoring up his ****. To
wit, getting rear ended while riding on just such a road as Jobst wrote
of. Therefore, because the possibility of injury is so easily
apprehended, he avoids the situation, and the stats reflect, not that
the practice is dangerous, but that, because proportionately few are
engaging in it and therefore injuring themselves, it doesn't pose much
of a hazard.

We've some tall bluffs in Toronto. No one's died this year falling from
those cliffs, while 53 pedestrians have been killed in traffic so far.
I suppose one could infer from those stats that traversing the
Scarborough bluffs is safer than crossing a street - and in some cases
it very well may be.

And therein lies the rub: how much of an actual hazard is posed? That's
for the concerned cyclist, hopefully informed by his experience as well
as local factors, to determine.

A friend, a casual cyclist, was rear ended in a hit and run several
years ago. Lots of lights, easily visible; he woke up in the hospital
with his head stapled together, broken bones, etc.. My first question
to him upon his recovering was: What were you doing on THAT road? The
conditions of that route - traffic flow at 70+ KM/H, early morning,
after last call on a Friday - virtually assured that IF an accident
occurred, the consequences would be severe.

That he was law abiding and lawfully entitled to ride that road was
cold comfort. What price to pay for advocacy? Where's the logic in
securing a right at the cost of the ability to exercise or enjoy it?


Luke
 
Per Wayne Pein:
>Do Tarmac Trolls rise out of the pavement to kill you?


Take this as it is meant: kindly advice.

Your days are numbered unless you undergo some recalibration vis-a-vis the
danger presented by automobiles to you.

I've said the same thing to a couple of others - and you won't be the first.
--
PeteCresswell
 
Per ThreeLeggedDog:
>The question is how to enforce it. In Alabama, where I live, a police
>officer has to see a traffic violation take place in order to ticket
>the violator. Reports from well meaning witnesses can not be used as
>evidence for a traffic violation.


I propose that every driver be granted an annual quotient of "Asshole" awards
that they can bestow as they see fit. No formal criteria, no justifications.

Let's say each driver gets to award a dozen Assholes.

They see something happen, they note the license number. Later on they go to a
web site; they authenticate themselves; they award one (they're only allowed to
award one per license number) "Asshole" along with a freeform text explanation
of the event.

At some time during the year, periodic reviews reveal that certain license
numbers have been awarded more than "X" Assholes in the last rolling calendar
year. I'd set the number fairly high. Maybe start with 100 or even 200. Skim
the market, so-to-speak.

The owners of the vehicles (doesn't matter who was driving - we'll never know
that...) with more than X Assholes get added to a publicly-available list along
with each award's accompanying text/time/date.

No fines, no jail time, no court appearances, no lawyers....


My bet is that once the insurance industry catches on, a *lot* of bad drivers
would modify their behavior.
--
PeteCresswell
 
Luke wrote:


>
> Are you advocating that such a situation doesn't pose a danger to the
> cyclist? Are statistics required to confirm a seemingly simple concept:
> that speeding motorists encountering an unexpected obstacle (i.e., a
> cyclist) have a greater likelihood of involving themselves in accidents
> than otherwise?


Yes, we all know that speeding inattentive motorists are a danger. This
can occur on any road. Didn't Jim Price get killed while riding in a
bike lane? So don't ride.

Leave alone one's right to ride the road, and
> motorists' culpability in the outcome, for the time being, strictly
> from the perspective of maintaining one's health, the conditions
> described above are to be avoided.
>
> But, by your insistence on stats, it appears you don't consider this
> situation sufficiently perilous. Well, "there are lies, damn lies, and
> there are statistics."


No I don't. If I ride on roads I have to assume that I won't get hit
from behind, and I take measures to improve my odds. If I didn't assume
safety, I couldn't ride because I'd always be paranoid.

>
> From my cursory acquaintance with the causes of local (urban Toronto)
> bicycle/auto accidents, the most common factor among them was that the
> cyclist was riding from the sidewalk onto the roadway at the time.
> Typically, the cyclist rode out into traffic and into the path of a
> vehicle. Most sidewalk cyclists are novices or children, and don't
> apprehend the myriad hazards of their habits. And, indeed, since the
> dangers of traffic seem remote among the pedestrians, they may be
> encouraged in their misconceptions.
>
> But even the most inexperienced rider has little trouble viscerally
> perceiving the consequences of a speeding auto motoring up his ****. To
> wit, getting rear ended while riding on just such a road as Jobst wrote
> of. Therefore, because the possibility of injury is so easily
> apprehended, he avoids the situation, and the stats reflect, not that
> the practice is dangerous, but that, because proportionately few are
> engaging in it and therefore injuring themselves, it doesn't pose much
> of a hazard.
>
> We've some tall bluffs in Toronto. No one's died this year falling from
> those cliffs, while 53 pedestrians have been killed in traffic so far.
> I suppose one could infer from those stats that traversing the
> Scarborough bluffs is safer than crossing a street - and in some cases
> it very well may be.
>
> And therein lies the rub: how much of an actual hazard is posed? That's
> for the concerned cyclist, hopefully informed by his experience as well
> as local factors, to determine.
>
> A friend, a casual cyclist, was rear ended in a hit and run several
> years ago. Lots of lights, easily visible; he woke up in the hospital
> with his head stapled together, broken bones, etc.. My first question
> to him upon his recovering was: What were you doing on THAT road? The
> conditions of that route - traffic flow at 70+ KM/H, early morning,
> after last call on a Friday - virtually assured that IF an accident
> occurred, the consequences would be severe.
>
> That he was law abiding and lawfully entitled to ride that road was
> cold comfort. What price to pay for advocacy? Where's the logic in
> securing a right at the cost of the ability to exercise or enjoy it?
>


No advocacy leads to loss of the right.

20 plus years ago when I was in college my girlfriend and her brother
were killed while driving by a drunk driver. I advocate for tougher
penalties for drunk driving, not for changing the roads.

Wayne
 
Wayne Pein wrote:

<snipped>

> 20 plus years ago when I was in college my girlfriend and her brother
> were killed while driving by a drunk driver. I advocate for tougher
> penalties for drunk driving, not for changing the roads.
>
> Wayne


Yup. This succinctly sums up the situation regarding Jim's death. I
don't understand why people here have their panties in a bunch over the
"transportation system," tilt at windmills, and offer no specific or
concrete suggestions on what exactly in the transportation system needs
to be change or improved in order to prevent another needless homicide
by a cell phone user in a moving vehicle.

The only thing wrong with the "system" is our complicity of allowing
such distractions while we are driving. And to argue which country has
the "superior" transportation system in the face of this tragedy is
ludicrous.
 
In article <[email protected]>, Wayne
Pein <[email protected]> wrote:

> Luke wrote:
>
>
> >
> > Are you advocating that such a situation doesn't pose a danger to the
> > cyclist? Are statistics required to confirm a seemingly simple concept:
> > that speeding motorists encountering an unexpected obstacle (i.e., a
> > cyclist) have a greater likelihood of involving themselves in accidents
> > than otherwise?

>
> Yes, we all know that speeding inattentive motorists are a danger. This
> can occur on any road. Didn't Jim Price get killed while riding in a
> bike lane? So don't ride.


The presence of a bike lane is irrelevant to my point. I'm concerned
with assessing the risk of particular situations, and acting to
mitigate them. Extend me the courtesy to assume that I can distinguish
degrees and natures of danger and can shape a response more appropriate
to the perils of traffic than refusing to ride altogether.

>
> Leave alone one's right to ride the road, and
> > motorists' culpability in the outcome, for the time being, strictly
> > from the perspective of maintaining one's health, the conditions
> > described above are to be avoided.
> >
> > But, by your insistence on stats, it appears you don't consider this
> > situation sufficiently perilous. Well, "there are lies, damn lies, and
> > there are statistics."

>
> No I don't.


Well, you confound me. You reject a conclusion, informed by decades of
experience - age before beauty Jobst!- and a personal acquaintance with
the stretch of road in question without (I assume) having ever set eyes
upon it yourself. I wonder that the issue is less a discrepancy in the
opinion of the level of threat posed, and more a discrepancy in what is
considered acceptable risk.

> If I ride on roads I have to assume that I won't get hit
> from behind, and I take measures to improve my odds. If I didn't assume
> safety, I couldn't ride because I'd always be paranoid.


As do I.

<big snip>

> > Where's the logic in
> > securing a right at the cost of the ability to exercise or enjoy it?
> >

>
> No advocacy leads to loss of the right.


So does death. When was the last time a corpse exercised his rights?

>
> 20 plus years ago when I was in college my girlfriend and her brother
> were killed while driving by a drunk driver. I advocate for tougher
> penalties for drunk driving, not for changing the roads.
>


And I advocate that loss of life or limb need not occur to affect
change.

Luke
 
In article <[email protected]>,
damyth <[email protected]> wrote:

> Wayne Pein wrote:
>
> <snipped>
>
> > 20 plus years ago when I was in college my girlfriend and her brother
> > were killed while driving by a drunk driver. I advocate for tougher
> > penalties for drunk driving, not for changing the roads.
> >
> > Wayne

>
> Yup. This succinctly sums up the situation regarding Jim's death. I
> don't understand why people here have their panties in a bunch over the
> "transportation system," tilt at windmills, and offer no specific or
> concrete suggestions on what exactly in the transportation system needs
> to be change or improved in order to prevent another needless homicide
> by a cell phone user in a moving vehicle.
>


Well, off the top of my head, submissions to this thread have urged
stiffer criminal penalties for cases such as this, more rigorous
licensing standards, outlawing cellphone use in cars, discretion in
choosing routes...

> The only thing wrong with the "system" is our complicity of allowing
> such distractions while we are driving.


Complicit? I'd characterize this forum's sensibilities as anything but.

Luke