Just plain slow

Cam Wilson said:

In my triathlon training, I followed the Total Immersion book, not doing every single drill, but
covering the majority of the concepts in the book. I developed great endurance, being able to swim
for up to around 40 minutes continuously... a big deal for me. But on the downside, I don't think
I developed the best technique. I mean, in that race, the best swimmer finished in one third of
the time it took me, and the middle of the pack people finished in about half the time I took.
Maybe I just need to work on speeding up my arm turnover?

It is not likely that technique would account for that much difference, unless your technique is way
bad, and if you followed the TI book, it isn't likely that your technique is way bad. However, if no
one who knows what to look for has actually looked at your technique, I suppose you could have a
serious problem. I doubt it.

Since you mention turnover, you must be thinking your turnover is slow. If it is, that is a large
part of the problem. But what does slow mean? How many strokes do you take per 25 meter(yard)
length? And what is your time for, say, 500 meters(yards) swimming at your workout pace?

Quoted message said:

If I am to do another such race, I must first see some improvement in the speed/efficiency
department. That was a long time to be swimming, and it put me right near the very back of the
pack. It would be great to place higher up in the standings next time. There is definitely room
for improvement. I'll see about joining a masters swim club or a triathlon training group, so i
can get some coaching.

That's the best move at this point.

martin

--
Martin Smith email: [email hidden] Vollsveien 9 tel. : +47 6783 1188
P.O. Box 482 mob. : +47 932 48 303 1327 Lysaker, Norway

Cam Wilson <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I completed my first sprint triathlon on the weekend, and while I was elated that I finished the
race feeling good, I am still a bit ticked that my swimming is as slow as it is. I know, I
know.... work on the technique!

My goal for the race was to simply get through the swim, which was 750m in a bay. That swim seemed
to take an eternity, though I actually did it a little faster than I did in training. Yes, one can
log a better time in OW than in a pool.

What bugged me was that I was passed by so many other swimmers. Now I probably shouldn't be so
hard on myself as I am still pretty much a novice at swimming. It wasn't until I took lessons
early in 2002 that I really learned how to swim at all. I couldn't swim 2m of front crawl until I
took the lessons.

In my triathlon training, I followed the Total Immersion book, not doing every single drill, but
covering the majority of the concepts in the book. I developed great endurance, being able to swim
for up to around 40 minutes continuously... a big deal for me. But on the downside, I don't think
I developed the best technique. I mean, in that race, the best swimmer finished in one third of
the time it took me, and the middle of the pack people finished in about half the time I took.
Maybe I just need to work on speeding up my arm turnover?

If I am to do another such race, I must first see some improvement in the speed/efficiency
department. That was a long time to be swimming, and it put me right near the very back of the
pack. It would be great to place higher up in the standings next time. There is definitely room
for improvement. I'll see about joining a masters swim club or a triathlon training group, so i
can get some coaching.

Just thinking out loud here....

Cam

OK, my take on this is a bit iconoclastic, but my experience leads me to believe it's correct.

You need more speed work and sprint racing experience. Period.

Watch children when they're learning to run. Do they grind out LSD like their more sedate elders
preparing for the now-popular 5K thru marathon races? No. They run their butts off in activities
that develop raw speed: tag, softball, football, soccer, even the occasional foot race. Most kids do
not even think about distance racing until they have been running for six to ten years.

Do 8-and-under age group swimmers focus on kilometer-long swims in practice or competition? No. They
learn to swim fast. All-out, pedal-to-the-medal, raw speed. The first one to the opposite wall is
the winner. The second one there is next best. And so on down the line.

You need to do the same. TI drills and long lap sets are great for honing technique and perhaps even
developing some strength and endurance, but they are and adjunct to -- NOT a substitute for --
sprint training.

The theory is simple. Raise the top end and everything else follows. Additionally, sprinting
highlights inefficiencies in your streamline and stroke technique. The forces involved are greater
when sprinting, thus revealing problems that can go unnoticed at lower speeds. Furthermore, the
greater muscular force applied develops strength, an undeniable asset when it comes to applying
power to the water.

Joining a masters team is a good move. You can get competent coaching and informed workout schedules
through a masters team that can take years off your development curve as a swimmer.

In the meantime, the last one to the wall is a rotten egg!!!!!

Good luck!

Hi Cam,

As a novice swimmer, the biggest improvements you can make will likely come from technique work. As
you already know, a coach is essential to help you develop this. I've been swimming for about 15
years and my masters coach still works on refining technique.

Aside from swimming with a master's group, keep in mind the following:

Speed = Stroke Length X Stroke Rate Stroke Length = Distance for every stroke Stroke Rate = Strokes
per unit of time

So suppose right now you take 15:00 for 500 meters and you take 25 strokes per length. Stroke Length
= 1.0 meters per stroke Stroke Rate = 33.3 strokes/minute

Try different modifications to your stroke so that you get 1.25 meters per stroke at the same stroke
rate Now, you would be taking 20 strokes per length and 500m time drops to 12:00. I wouldn't think
about increasing stroke rate until you can get your stroke count under 20 per length (mainly due to
technique issues).

Just for reference, an average triathlete would probably see the following figures: 500 meters in
10:00; 20 strokes per length Stroke Length = 1.25 meters Stroke Rate = 40 strokes / minute

Try shorter distances like 25's and 50's while working towards these targets. As a novice swimmer,
you will see more benefit by maintaining "good technique" for shorter distances then "poor
technique" for longer distances. Most novice swim programs for kids spend the majority of time doing
25's and 50's in practice on technique which suggests that you should try this as well. To get a
better endurance benefit, simply reduce the time between 25's but ensure that you are maintainin
"good technique" throughout the entire workout.

Dan

"Cam Wilson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I completed my first sprint triathlon on the weekend, and while I was elated that I finished the
race feeling good, I am still a bit ticked that my swimming is as slow as it is. I know, I
know.... work on the technique!

My goal for the race was to simply get through the swim, which was 750m in a bay. That swim seemed
to take an eternity, though I actually did it a little faster than I did in training. Yes, one can
log a better time in OW than in a pool.

What bugged me was that I was passed by so many other swimmers. Now I probably shouldn't be so
hard on myself as I am still pretty much a novice at swimming. It wasn't until I took lessons
early in 2002 that I really learned how to swim at all. I couldn't swim 2m of front crawl until I
took the lessons.

In my triathlon training, I followed the Total Immersion book, not doing every single drill, but
covering the majority of the concepts in the book. I developed great endurance, being able to swim
for up to around 40 minutes continuously... a big deal for me. But on the downside, I don't think
I developed the best technique. I mean, in that race, the best swimmer finished in one third of
the time it took me, and the middle of the pack people finished in about half the time I took.
Maybe I just need to work on speeding up my arm turnover?

If I am to do another such race, I must first see some improvement in the speed/efficiency
department. That was a long time to be swimming, and it put me right near the very back of the
pack. It would be great to place higher up in the standings next time. There is definitely room
for improvement. I'll see about joining a masters swim club or a triathlon training group, so i
can get some coaching.

Just thinking out loud here....

Cam

--
Not every race can be a perfect experience, but every race can be a learning experience.

How old are you and what is current weekly swim training program?

"Cam Wilson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I completed my first sprint triathlon on the weekend, and while I was elated that I finished the
race feeling good, I am still a bit ticked that my swimming is as slow as it is. I know, I
know.... work on the technique!

My goal for the race was to simply get through the swim, which was 750m in a bay. That swim seemed
to take an eternity, though I actually did it a little faster than I did in training. Yes, one can
log a better time in OW than in a pool.

What bugged me was that I was passed by so many other swimmers. Now I probably shouldn't be so
hard on myself as I am still pretty much a novice at swimming. It wasn't until I took lessons
early in 2002 that I really learned how to swim at all. I couldn't swim 2m of front crawl until I
took the lessons.

In my triathlon training, I followed the Total Immersion book, not doing every single drill, but
covering the majority of the concepts in the book. I developed great endurance, being able to swim
for up to around 40 minutes continuously... a big deal for me. But on the downside, I don't think
I developed the best technique. I mean, in that race, the best swimmer finished in one third of
the time it took me, and the middle of the pack people finished in about half the time I took.
Maybe I just need to work on speeding up my arm turnover?

If I am to do another such race, I must first see some improvement in the speed/efficiency
department. That was a long time to be swimming, and it put me right near the very back of the
pack. It would be great to place higher up in the standings next time. There is definitely room
for improvement. I'll see about joining a masters swim club or a triathlon training group, so i
can get some coaching.

Just thinking out loud here....

Cam

--
Not every race can be a perfect experience, but every race can be a learning experience.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Martin W. Smith said:

It is not likely that technique would account for that much difference, unless your technique is
way bad, and if you followed the TI book, it isn't likely that your technique is way bad.

and that's why i am just a bit baffled. i feel i have followed pretty closely the TI methods. i
mean, swimming is not difficult for me... i can do that km or whatever and still feel good
afterwards, but there is something else going on.

However, if no one who

Quoted message said:

knows what to look for has actually looked at your technique, I suppose you could have a serious
problem. I doubt it. Since you mention turnover, you must be thinking your turnover is slow. If
it is, that is a large part of the problem. But what does slow mean? How many strokes do you take
per 25 meter(yard) length? And what is your time for, say, 500 meters(yards) swimming at your
workout pace?

yup, i'd say the turnover. i usually take over a stroke per metre, often getting close to 29-30
strokes per length. i haven't timed myself doing 500m, but it would be between 15 and 20 minutes.
the timing of the catch and the pull is an area i can work on.

Cam

--
Not every race can be a perfect experience, but every race can be a learning experience.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Kerry

Wilson) said:

OK, my take on this is a bit iconoclastic, but my experience leads me to believe it's correct.

You need more speed work and sprint racing experience. Period.

Watch children when they're learning to run. Do they grind out LSD like their more sedate elders
preparing for the now-popular 5K thru marathon races? No. They run their butts off in activities
that develop raw speed: tag, softball, football, soccer, even the occasional foot race. Most kids
do not even think about distance racing until they have been running for six to ten years.

Do 8-and-under age group swimmers focus on kilometer-long swims in practice or competition? No.
They learn to swim fast. All-out, pedal-to-the-medal, raw speed. The first one to the opposite
wall is the winner. The second one there is next best. And so on down the line.

You need to do the same. TI drills and long lap sets are great for honing technique and perhaps
even developing some strength and endurance, but they are and adjunct to -- NOT a substitute for
-- sprint training.

i may not get to the masters team thing for a bit, so in the meantime i'll just hurry around the
pool and/or the bay more. thanks for the thoughts.

A sprinting I will go....

Cam

--
Not every race can be a perfect experience, but every race can be a learning experience.

(Kerry Wilson) said:

Cam Wilson <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I completed my first sprint triathlon on the weekend, and while I was elated that I finished the
race feeling good, I am still a bit ticked that my swimming is as slow as it is. I know, I
know.... work on the technique!

My goal for the race was to simply get through the swim, which was 750m in a bay. That swim
seemed to take an eternity, though I actually did it a little faster than I did in training. Yes,
one can log a better time in OW than in a pool.

What bugged me was that I was passed by so many other swimmers. Now I probably shouldn't be so
hard on myself as I am still pretty much a novice at swimming. It wasn't until I took lessons
early in 2002 that I really learned how to swim at all. I couldn't swim 2m of front crawl until I
took the lessons.

In my triathlon training, I followed the Total Immersion book, not doing every single drill, but
covering the majority of the concepts in the book. I developed great endurance, being able to
swim for up to around 40 minutes continuously... a big deal for me. But on the downside, I don't
think I developed the best technique. I mean, in that race, the best swimmer finished in one
third of the time it took me, and the middle of the pack people finished in about half the time I
took. Maybe I just need to work on speeding up my arm turnover?

If I am to do another such race, I must first see some improvement in the speed/efficiency
department. That was a long time to be swimming, and it put me right near the very back of the
pack. It would be great to place higher up in the standings next time. There is definitely room
for improvement. I'll see about joining a masters swim club or a triathlon training group, so i
can get some coaching.

Just thinking out loud here....

Cam

OK, my take on this is a bit iconoclastic, but my experience leads me to believe it's correct.

You need more speed work and sprint racing experience. Period.

Watch children when they're learning to run. Do they grind out LSD like their more sedate elders
preparing for the now-popular 5K thru marathon races? No. They run their butts off in activities
that develop raw speed: tag, softball, football, soccer, even the occasional foot race.

Although I see your point I'm not real sure it applies. Children run around fast not because it's
good training but because fast is fun. I've yet to see a younger child play tag, softball, soccer
and then go run a 10K without proper distance training. Many younger kids around here start doing
distance running around 8-9 or so. We have several fast youngsters in our local 5K's. They almost
all do distance runs.

Quoted message said:

Most kids do not even think about distance racing until they have been running for six to
ten years.

I suppose you could look at it from this point of view. From the ages of 2-8 they are
working purely on technique. AKA learning to run. Several studies have shown that the
economy of younger runners is significantly lower than that of there elders. As far as
"speed" work I would highly suggest that one build a base of endurance before doing speed in
running. Going out and doing
1/4 mi repeats without some base has been known to cause injury. I think kids can get away with it
because tehy are significantly more resilant and recover much quicker.

Quoted message said:

Do 8-and-under age group swimmers focus on kilometer-long swims in practice or competition? No.
They learn to swim fast. All-out, pedal-to-the-medal, raw speed. The first one to the opposite wall
is the winner. The second one there is next best. And so on down the line.

Swimming a 25yd sprint is very different from swimming 1500 meters. Pretty much anyone
reguradless of technique can hop in the pool and cover 25yds. Strength is much more of an
issue over 25 yds than is endurance. I've met many a kid that can kick my but in 25yds in
the pool and even in a 50 yd dash. However only a very few of those same kids can hang with
me in a 10K run or 800yd swim. And I'm far from fast at either.

Quoted message said:

You need to do the same. TI drills and long lap sets are great for honing technique and perhaps
even developing some strength and endurance, but they are and adjunct to -- NOT a substitute for --
sprint training.

I absolutely agree here. I think the question in everyone's case is were am I weakest.
Technique or endurance and strength.

Quoted message said:

The theory is simple. Raise the top end and everything else follows. Additionally, sprinting
highlights inefficiencies in your streamline and stroke technique. The forces involved are greater
when sprinting, thus revealing problems that can go unnoticed at lower speeds. Furthermore, the
greater muscular force applied develops strength, an undeniable asset when it comes to applying
power to the water.

This sword can cut both ways. Repeating any activity will ingrain existing bad habits if one
suffers from such things. If one goes out and disreguards technique or concentrates mostly
on speed adn endurance while suffering from a severe technique flaw that flaw will be
engrained. Bad habits are hard to break.

Quoted message said:

Joining a masters team is a good move. You can get competent coaching and informed workout
schedules through a masters team that can take years off your development curve as a swimmer.

I've had semi good results from masters class. Ours is an all volunteer situation and a
rotating coaching staff. The most frustrating part is one coach may say "you roll to far" on
Tuesday and on Thursday and other might say "you don't roll far enough" All in all though
just getting in the pool and being pushed a little is a good thing. If you're lucky enough
to have a good coach it's even better.

~Matt

Quoted message said:

In the meantime, the last one to the wall is a rotten egg!!!!!

Good luck!

In article said:

Hi Cam,

As a novice swimmer, the biggest improvements you can make will likely come from technique work.
As you already know, a coach is essential to help you develop this. I've been swimming for about
15 years and my masters coach still works on refining technique.

Aside from swimming with a master's group, keep in mind the following:

Speed = Stroke Length X Stroke Rate Stroke Length = Distance for every stroke Stroke Rate =
Strokes per unit of time

So suppose right now you take 15:00 for 500 meters and you take 25 strokes per length. Stroke
Length = 1.0 meters per stroke Stroke Rate = 33.3 strokes/minute

Try different modifications to your stroke so that you get 1.25 meters per stroke at the same
stroke rate Now, you would be taking 20 strokes per length and 500m time drops to 12:00. I
wouldn't think about increasing stroke rate until you can get your stroke count under 20 per
length (mainly due to technique issues).

Just for reference, an average triathlete would probably see the following figures: 500 meters in
10:00; 20 strokes per length Stroke Length = 1.25 meters Stroke Rate = 40 strokes / minute

Try shorter distances like 25's and 50's while working towards these targets. As a novice swimmer,
you will see more benefit by maintaining "good technique" for shorter distances then "poor
technique" for longer distances. Most novice swim programs for kids spend the majority of time
doing 25's and 50's in practice on technique which suggests that you should try this as well. To
get a better endurance benefit, simply reduce the time between 25's but ensure that you are
maintainin "good technique" throughout the entire workout.

Dan

All good food for thought. Thanks for the info, Dan.

Cam

--
Not every race can be a perfect experience, but every race can be a learning experience.

Dan said:

Hi Cam,

As a novice swimmer, the biggest improvements you can make will likely come from technique work.

He isn't a novice swimmer. He has competed in a triathlon. And I always disagree with this biggest
improvements claim. Certainly everybody can improve their technique, but this claim that the biggest
improvements for swimmers come from improving technique just doesn't work. If a person is out of
shape, he can't even do some of the things that proper technique requires, at least not for long.
Improving fitness, strength, and endurance are where the biggest gains lie for most people, because
without these things, they can't maintain proper technique for very long.

The technique of most swimmers is not so bad that they can't use what they've get out there
and go hard.

Quoted message said:

As you already know, a coach is essential to help you develop this. I've been swimming for about
15 years and my masters coach still works on refining technique.

Aside from swimming with a master's group, keep in mind the following:

Speed = Stroke Length X Stroke Rate Stroke Length = Distance for every stroke Stroke Rate =
Strokes per unit of time

So suppose right now you take 15:00 for 500 meters and you take 25 strokes per length. Stroke
Length = 1.0 meters per stroke Stroke Rate = 33.3 strokes/minute

Try different modifications to your stroke so that you get 1.25 meters per stroke at the same
stroke rate Now, you would be taking 20 strokes per length and 500m time drops to 12:00. I
wouldn't think about increasing stroke rate until you can get your stroke count under 20 per
length (mainly due to technique issues).

Just for reference, an average triathlete would probably see the following figures: 500 meters in
10:00; 20 strokes per length Stroke Length = 1.25 meters Stroke Rate = 40 strokes / minute

Try shorter distances like 25's and 50's while working towards these targets. As a novice swimmer,
you will see more benefit by maintaining "good technique" for shorter distances then "poor
technique" for longer distances. Most novice swim programs for kids spend the majority of time
doing 25's and 50's in practice on technique which suggests that you should try this as well. To
get a better endurance benefit, simply reduce the time between 25's but ensure that you are
maintainin "good technique" throughout the entire workout.

It's strange that you wrote all that about stroke rate and stroke length, but you didn't say
anything about technique. Changes in stroke rate and stroke length are not changes in technique.

martin

--
Martin Smith email: [email hidden] Vollsveien 9 tel. : +47 6783 1188
P.O. Box 482 mob. : +47 932 48 303 1327 Lysaker, Norway

Cam Wilson said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Martin W. Smith said:

It is not likely that technique would account for that much difference, unless your technique is
way bad, and if you followed the TI book, it isn't likely that your technique is way bad.

and that's why i am just a bit baffled. i feel i have followed pretty closely the TI methods. i
mean, swimming is not difficult for me... i can do that km or whatever and still feel good
afterwards, but there is something else going on.

One thing I've noticed. Reguardless of technique in the water if you spend enough time in it
you can eventually become comfortable enough to find a pace you can hold. I've seen people
in our pool that have little to no technique and seem to find a way to get from one end to
the other over and over. I mean baaaddddd technique, just short of standing up technique. We
have a couple of guys that go on for 30 mins or more like this.

Quoted message said:

However, if no one who

Quoted message said:

knows what to look for has actually looked at your technique, I suppose you could have a serious
problem. I doubt it. Since you mention turnover, you must be thinking your turnover is slow. If
it is, that is a large part of the problem. But what does slow mean? How many strokes do you take
per 25 meter(yard) length? And what is your time for, say, 500 meters(yards) swimming at your
workout pace?

yup, i'd say the turnover. i usually take over a stroke per metre, often getting close to 29-30
strokes per length. i haven't timed myself doing 500m, but it would be between 15 and 20 minutes.
the timing of the catch and the pull is an area i can work on.

IMO if thats 29-30 strokes per 25yd/m there's still a considerable amount of technique to be
worked on. Is that a slow swim or fast? My SC has a tendancy to creep up the faster I swim.
When I first started swimming my SC was around 25-27 per 25. I eventually dropped it to
17-19 for regular swimming and 14-16 for slow. The drop in SC also correlated to a nearly
30% increase in speed. My times were approximately where you are now when I started. I know
that SC is not the end all to be all but for whatever reason nearly every good swimmer I've
seen can cover alot of distance in a few strokes.

~Matt

Quoted message said:

Cam

--
Not every race can be a perfect experience, but every race can be a learning experience.

"> He isn't a novice swimmer. He has competed in a triathlon. And I always

Quoted message said:

disagree with this biggest improvements claim. Certainly everybody can improve their technique,
but this claim that the biggest improvements for swimmers come from improving technique just
doesn't work. If a person is out of shape, he can't even do some of the things that proper
technique requires, at least not for long. Improving fitness, strength, and endurance are where
the biggest gains lie for most people, because without these things, they can't maintain proper
technique for very long.

I agree with what you're saying that strength and endurance are big gains but technique also needs
to be incorporated. For example, instead of just doing a straight 1000m swim for endurance, I
believe he would benefit more by doing 20 X 50m with perfect technique and only enough rest to
maintain a good stroke. Each successive attempt at this set should see him going faster on each rep
and with less rest. I believe you can more strength gains by using a better stroke (i.e. a fully
extended pull should develop the muscles better than a "cheat pull" where the hand exits at the
waist line. I'm not recommending that he just do drills the whole workout, but that strength,
endurance and technique should be equally emphasized.

Quoted message said:

It's strange that you wrote all that about stroke rate and stroke length, but you didn't say
anything about technique. Changes in stroke rate and stroke length are not changes in technique.

I disagree here. Changes in stroke length and rate are highly correlated to changes in technique. If
you're only going 1.0 meter with each pull now, in order to get to 1.25 meters something in the
stroke has to change. Surely you've done sets where you try to decrease your stroke count on a
length - the stroke technique does change. I included the above as a way for him to look at training
on his own. Ideally, the best bet is to have a coach on deck who can help find the best way to
optimize rate & length.

Dan

Cam Wilson said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Martin W. Smith said:

It is not likely that technique would account for that much difference, unless your technique is
way bad, and if you followed the TI book, it isn't likely that your technique is way bad.

and that's why i am just a bit baffled. i feel i have followed pretty closely the TI methods. i
mean, swimming is not difficult for me... i can do that km or whatever and still feel good
afterwards, but there is something else going on.

Well, that might be a clue. Swimming competitively is hard. If you expect to go as fast in a
swimming race as you go in a running or cycling race, then you have to put in the same effort. I'm
not saying you should do that in a triathlon - if you are a good triathlete - but if you are putting
all your effort into the bike leg and thge run leg, then you can't expect to have the same success
in the swim leg.

How often do you swim a 500 for time as if you were swimming a race? If you are just swimming
workouts where you are comfortable, your speed won't improve much. 750 meters is not a long
distance. You should be swimming an 800 for time each week or every two weeks at least.

Quoted message said:

However, if no one who

Quoted message said:

knows what to look for has actually looked at your technique, I suppose you could have a serious
problem. I doubt it. Since you mention turnover, you must be thinking your turnover is slow. If
it is, that is a large part of the problem. But what does slow mean? How many strokes do you
take per 25 meter(yard) length? And what is your time for, say, 500 meters(yards) swimming at
your workout pace?

yup, i'd say the turnover. i usually take over a stroke per metre, often getting close to 29-30
strokes per length. i haven't timed myself doing 500m, but it would be between 15 and 20 minutes.
the timing of the catch and the pull is an area i can work on.

ok, I am swimming 1500 each morning, and I keep track of the time. Currently, I average about 1:44
per 100 meters. On a good day I average near 1:40. Thats's in a 50 meter pool. I take about 55
strokes per length, which is not a high stroke rate. My technique is about as good as it's going to
get. By that I mean there is probably much room for improvement, but I don't think improvements in
technique would increase my speed much. The reason for that is that I don't have a swimmer's body
and never did. If Ian Thorpe is a Formula-1 racer, I'm a jeep. Maybe not a jeep, maybe some sort of
sedan. The point is that I was a much better baseball player than competitive swimmer, but I love
swimming as much as I love baseball.

So my 55 strokes per length in a 50 meter pool would be rougly 25 per length in a 25 meter pool, and
23 or 24 in a 25 yard pool. Your stroke rate is 29 or 30, which means your stroke rate is already
20% higher than mine, but your 500 time is about 17:30 where mine is 8:40, when I'm swimming three
500s in a row. So either you are one very big fellow, or your technique is way bad.

If you are seriously big, there is only so much you can do. Moving a big body through the water is
harder than moving a smaller one. Assuming that isn't the problem, then given your stroke rate, I'm
guessing you are pulling with your elbows. ie you are letting your forearm and and hand slip through
the water behind your elbow rather than striving to bring your hand back *before* your elbow. I'm
also guessing you might be leaning on your arms a little out in front, although that would not be
consistent with your 29-30 stroke rate.

If I'm describing your actual problem, then the way to fix it, basically is to begin each arm pull
as if you are reach down over a barrel *before* you begin pulling back. Then you won't lead with
your elbows. Your stroke rate will slow a bit, because you are pulling more water, and your
shoulders will get tired more quickly.

martin

--
Martin Smith email: [email hidden] Vollsveien 9 tel. : +47 6783 1188
P.O. Box 482 mob. : +47 932 48 303 1327 Lysaker, Norway

In article said:

On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 11:44:58 -0400, Cam Wilson <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

However, if no one who

Quoted message said:

knows what to look for has actually looked at your technique, I suppose you could have a
serious problem. I doubt it. Since you mention turnover, you must be thinking your turnover is
slow. If it is, that is a large part of the problem. But what does slow mean? How many strokes
do you take per 25 meter(yard) length? And what is your time for, say, 500 meters(yards)
swimming at your workout pace?

yup, i'd say the turnover. i usually take over a stroke per metre, often getting close to 29-30
strokes per length. i haven't timed myself doing 500m, but it would be between 15 and 20 minutes.
the timing of the catch and the pull is an area i can work on.

IMO if thats 29-30 strokes per 25yd/m there's still a considerable amount of technique to be
worked on. Is that a slow swim or fast? My SC has a tendancy to creep up the faster I swim.

i haven't been diligent about doing SC while at workouts. not lately anyway. that SC was during a
long distance swim, so not really an accurate measure of how i'd be for 100-400m.

Quoted message said:

When I first started swimming my SC was around 25-27 per 25. I eventually dropped it to
17-19 for regular swimming and 14-16 for slow. The drop in SC also correlated to a nearly
30% increase in speed. My times were approximately where you are now when I started. I know
that SC is not the end all to be all but for whatever reason nearly every good swimmer I've
seen can cover alot of distance in a few strokes.

more effective glide and pull? i do not kick a lot, since i am doing swimming for the purpose of
triathlon, where i want to save the legs for the bike and run.

thanks for the ideas,

Cam

--
Not every race can be a perfect experience, but every race can be a learning experience.

Dan said:

"> He isn't a novice swimmer. He has competed in a triathlon. And I always

Quoted message said:

disagree with this biggest improvements claim. Certainly everybody can improve their technique,
but this claim that the biggest improvements for swimmers come from improving technique just
doesn't work. If a person is out of shape, he can't even do some of the things that proper
technique requires, at least not for long. Improving fitness, strength, and endurance are where
the biggest gains lie for most people, because without these things, they can't maintain proper
technique for very long.

I agree with what you're saying that strength and endurance are big gains but technique also needs
to be incorporated. For example, instead of just doing a straight 1000m swim for endurance, I
believe he would benefit more by doing 20 X 50m with perfect technique and only enough rest to
maintain a good stroke. Each successive attempt at this set should see him going faster on each
rep and with less rest. I believe you can more strength gains by using a better stroke (i.e. a
fully extended pull should develop the muscles better than a "cheat pull" where the hand exits at
the waist line. I'm not recommending that he just do drills the whole workout, but that strength,
endurance and technique should be equally emphasized.

I agree.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It's strange that you wrote all that about stroke rate and stroke length, but you didn't say
anything about technique. Changes in stroke rate and stroke length are not changes in technique.

I disagree here. Changes in stroke length and rate are highly correlated to changes in technique.

I agree, but you admonished him to improve his technique without giving him any ideas for
improving his technique. Yes, you have to change technique to decrease stroke rate while
maintaining speed, but it isn't obvious what changes in technique to make if you just tell him to
change his stroke rate.

Quoted message said:

If you're only going 1.0 meter with each pull now, in order to get to 1.25 meters something in the
stroke has to change. Surely you've done sets where you try to decrease your stroke count on a
length - the stroke technique does change. I included the above as a way for him to look at
training on his own. Ideally, the best bet is to have a coach on deck who can help find the best
way to optimize rate & length.

Dan

martin

--
Martin Smith email: [email hidden] Vollsveien 9 tel. : +47 6783 1188
P.O. Box 482 mob. : +47 932 48 303 1327 Lysaker, Norway

"Martin W. Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

If I'm describing your actual problem, then the way to fix it, basically is to begin each arm pull
as if you are reach down over a barrel *before* you begin pulling back. Then you won't lead with
your elbows. Your stroke rate will slow a bit, because you are pulling more water, and your
shoulders will get tired more quickly.

Would you restate this for my benefit? I can't quite picture what you mean.

Thanks, Rob Campbell

Cam Wilson said:

In article said:

On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 11:44:58 -0400, Cam Wilson <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

However, if no one who
> knows what to look for has actually looked at your technique, I suppose you could have a
> serious problem. I doubt it. Since you mention turnover, you must be thinking your turnover is
> slow. If it is, that is a large part of the problem. But what does slow mean? How many strokes
> do you take per 25 meter(yard) length? And what is your time for, say, 500 meters(yards)
> swimming at your workout pace?

yup, i'd say the turnover. i usually take over a stroke per metre, often getting close to 29-30
strokes per length. i haven't timed myself doing 500m, but it would be between 15 and 20
minutes. the timing of the catch and the pull is an area i can work on.

IMO if thats 29-30 strokes per 25yd/m there's still a considerable amount of technique to be
worked on. Is that a slow swim or fast? My SC has a tendancy to creep up the faster I swim.

i haven't been diligent about doing SC while at workouts. not lately anyway. that SC was during a
long distance swim, so not really an accurate measure of how i'd be for 100-400m.

Actually that measurement during a long swim is a good indication of how efficient you are
swimming. In a longer or harder swim technique has a tendancy of going out the window. If
you can get in the pool and swim a length in 20 or so strokes your technique may be ok. But
as shown here it falls apart as you get tired. It may just be an indication toward more
training. OTOH if you can't ever get near 20 even while going slow and concetrating on
technique maybe some more drill/technique/coaching stuff is in order.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

When I first started swimming my SC was around 25-27 per 25. I eventually dropped it to
17-19 for regular swimming and 14-16 for slow. The drop in SC also correlated to a nearly
30% increase in speed. My times were approximately where you are now when I started. I know
that SC is not the end all to be all but for whatever reason nearly every good swimmer I've
seen can cover alot of distance in a few strokes.

more effective glide and pull? i do not kick a lot, since i am doing swimming for the purpose of
triathlon, where i want to save the legs for the bike and run.

I have no kick. When I first started doing drills I would get in the pool and kick and
actually traveled backwards. I have since corrected that problem but still dont not have a
phenominal kick. Since most of my swimming is in the first leg of a tri too I have no real
desire to spend alot of time on my kick either. Obviously a more effective glide and pull is
advantageous. However you need to find out what aspect of your swim is causing a less
effecient glide and pull. There are several reasons I can see for not getting the distance
per stroke. Please correct or add at will..

1) Poor catching/pulling mechanics - Such things as "low elbow" turned hand or "knife stroke" as I
call it. Pulling with shoulders/arms only rather than rolling and incorporating the larger mid
and lower chest and back muscles. Pushing down rather than pulling back, often seen with a
lifting of the head during breathing phase (pushing up to get air) I'm sure Larry will have
comment here about loping.

2) Poor body position - The best catch and pull in the world ain't gonna get you far if your
vertical in the water. Illistrated by trying to "Skull/Pull" your way across the pool in a
floating seated position
vs. prone swimming position.

3)Lack of strength and endurance - If you have low strength and endurance you may be able to put out
a few good effecient lengths, but eventually you will tire which will shorten your stroke and
generaly effect your technique.

Quoted message said:

thanks for the ideas,

Cam

--
Not every race can be a perfect experience, but every race can be a learning experience.

Rob Campbell said:

"Martin W. Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

If I'm describing your actual problem, then the way to fix it, basically is to begin each arm
pull as if you are reach down over a barrel *before* you begin pulling back. Then you won't lead
with your elbows. Your stroke rate will slow a bit, because you are pulling more water, and your
shoulders will get tired more quickly.

Would you restate this for my benefit? I can't quite picture what you mean.

Imagine you are lying on your stomach on a narrow bench, so that your arms can hang down on both
sides and you can emulate the swimming arm motions in the air. Your chin is just over the front edge
of the bench. Imagine a barrel (the wooden stave kind) is lying on its side just in front of, and to
the left of the bench, so that it sticks up just a little above the bench. Imagine draping your left
arm over that barrel and reaching down over it toward the floor in front of it. Your elbow is high;
your hand and forearm are reaching way down in front of the barrel, and your finger types are
pointing almost directly down. This position is approximately where you begin your pull. See it that
way on both sides. If you begin your pull too soon before your hand and arm reach that position, you
will either push down too much, which is wasted effort that will damage your shoulders in the long
run, or you will try to keep your stroke rate up by bending your arm too much and pulling back
leading with your elbows.

martin

--
Martin Smith email: [email hidden] Vollsveien 9 tel. : +47 6783 1188
P.O. Box 482 mob. : +47 932 48 303 1327 Lysaker, Norway

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] (Larry

Weisenthal) said:

Here are some relevant comments, posted on the newsgroup more than a year ago: From: Andrew
([email hidden]) Newsgroups: rec.sport.swimming Date: 2002-07-17 11:41:56 PST

"RunnSwim" <[email hidden]> wrote [heavily edited by Andrew]

You couldn't be more correct. I'm also of the opinion that a symmetrical,

Quoted message said:

front quadrant stroke is a big mistake for swimmers who have ineffective kicks. I've always been a
strong, two beat swimmer, but a couple of years ago, I adopted a 6-beat kick. Every workout, I
would 6-beat the entire session: warm-up & recovery sets included (the aerobic effect has been
great!). Now, swimming with a 6-beat kick is so natural that I can't imagine swimming without
one...until I put on a wetsuit. The boyancy of a wet suit is so great that even a compulsive
6-beat kicker will simply forget to kick! So, most mediocre, long stroke triathlete swimmers stop
kicking because of their wetsuits; the loss of momnetum after each pull ends up negating any time
savings from the wetsuit!!! The most common complaint I hear from triathletes after they've spent
$400 on a wetsuit & $700-$800 on a clinc is, "I've been drilling for a whole year, and during the
triathlon I felt long and smooth in the water, but my splits are still so slow; I just don't get
it." I do; they're not swimming smart, and they're not training intelligently.

Larry Weisenthal

i believe my kick MIGHT also be a factor in my lack of speed. i vary my kick during swim, but rarely
go beyond a 4-beat kick. a lot of kicking tends to increase my chances of experiencing a leg cramp.
don't ask....

Cam

--
Not every race can be a perfect experience, but every race can be a learning experience.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Martin W. Smith said:

Dan said:

Hi Cam,

As a novice swimmer, the biggest improvements you can make will likely come from technique work.

He isn't a novice swimmer. He has competed in a triathlon. And I always disagree with this biggest
improvements claim. Certainly everybody can improve their technique, but this claim that the
biggest improvements for swimmers come from improving technique just doesn't work. If a person is
out of shape, he can't even do some of the things that proper technique requires, at least not for
long. Improving fitness, strength, and endurance are where the biggest gains lie for most people,
because without these things, they can't maintain proper technique for very long.

i guess i'm not a novice anymore... since i can swim around a bay - no matter how poorly or slowly?
🙂 as for fitness, strength and endurance, i'm not sure what more i can do besides some weights
(which i'm not crazy about). i swim, bike and run a few times a week each, am in the best shape of
my life (at age 39), and can swim for 40 or so minutes non-stop. is that not enough endurance to
hold proper technique? if not, then the hell with it... i'll stay where i am. i'll not give up my
whole life to workout 🙂 but the analysis of my stroke/pull was more on the money. i think that's
where i'll look to practise and improve.

Quoted message said:

The technique of most swimmers is not so bad that they can't use what they've get out there and
go hard.

that's the other thing. i haven't trained to go fast, just long (long for me, anyway).

Cam

--
Not every race can be a perfect experience, but every race can be a learning experience.