Keep Watch at Those Stop Signs..

<[email hidden]> wrote ...

Quoted message said:

Lightning was being housed in Benton County jail with bail set at
$57,500. He will be given a court-appointed lawyer at his arraignment
in Benton County.

Now if he'd been in a car and the victim was on a bike it would be an
entirely different story.

J "I didn't see him!" F

Quoted message said:

A bicyclist was charged with manslaughter after he ran through a stop
sign and struck and killed a 71-year-old woman, police said Monday.

Here in the Northern Virginia suburbs two cyclists were killed in three
days on the popular W&OD trail. Despite the fact that Virginia law
_clearly_ gives bicycles on mixed-use trails the "same rights and
duties as pedestrians" the Loudon County sheriff's office is trumping
up charges on cyclists for not coming to _complete_ stops before
entering the crosswalks. They are probably trying to protect the county
from responsibility for its failure to properly maintain the
crosswalks, IMO. Unfortunately, it means that motorists not only get to
kill any bicyclist who doesn't completely stop at crosswalks, the
motorists have NO responsibility for avoiding them even after they
stopped because the bicyclist's responsibility to yield to traffic is
absolute (assuming that it can't be proven that it was a case of
assault with a motor vehicle).

(The standard for a pedestrian entering a crosswalk is basically don't
be stupid- yield to the 2-ton hunks of metal. But once you're in the
crosswalk the cars are supposed to stop, and they'd damn well better be
careful as they approach it.)

So we have two dead bicyclists and it's open season on the rest of us.
Unfortunately, there are many children using the path, and they may not
realize, even with the thoughtful assistance of the Loudon County
Deputies giving them tickets, that they can legally be run down now.

Quoted message said:

http://www.breitbart.com/news/na/D8CIQME80.html

Ore. Bicyclist Charged With Manslaughter
Sep 12 12:21 PM US/Eastern

CORVALLIS, Ore.

A bicyclist was charged with manslaughter after he ran through a stop
sign and struck and killed a 71-year-old woman, police said Monday.

Jean Calder died at Good Samaritan Hospital after she was struck Friday
night as she crossed a street at an unmarked crosswalk, Corvallis
police Capt. Ron Noble said.

Christopher A. Lightning, 51, was charged with manslaughter and
reckless driving.

"A car and a bicycle are both vehicles and if they are operated in a
way that could be criminal, then charges are filed equally in both
situations," Noble said. "He was going right through a stop sign."

Lightning was being housed in Benton County jail with bail set at
$57,500. He will be given a court-appointed lawyer at his arraignment
in Benton County.

Did he have V-brakes?
Was he wearing a helmet?
Was she wearing a helmet?

All questions that we should ponder.........

Quoted message said:

http://www.breitbart.com/news/na/D8CIQME80.html

Ore. Bicyclist Charged With Manslaughter
Sep 12 12:21 PM US/Eastern

CORVALLIS, Ore.

A bicyclist was charged with manslaughter after he ran through a stop
sign and struck and killed a 71-year-old woman, police said Monday.

Jean Calder died at Good Samaritan Hospital after she was struck Friday
night as she crossed a street at an unmarked crosswalk, Corvallis
police Capt. Ron Noble said.

Christopher A. Lightning, 51, was charged with manslaughter and
reckless driving.

"A car and a bicycle are both vehicles and if they are operated in a
way that could be criminal, then charges are filed equally in both
situations," Noble said. "He was going right through a stop sign."

Lightning was being housed in Benton County jail with bail set at
$57,500. He will be given a court-appointed lawyer at his arraignment
in Benton County.

Did he have V-brakes?
Was he wearing a helmet?
Was she wearing a helmet?

All questions that we should ponder.........

Quoted message said:

A bicyclist was charged with manslaughter after he ran through a stop
sign and struck and killed a 71-year-old woman, police said Monday.

Cyclists have been getting too reckless for a long time. A pedestrian
here, a month ago, was mowed down by a hit and run bicyclist. Broke the
pedestrians jaw. The victim wants bicycles to have license plates, because
there is no way to track these law breakers down.

Quoted message said:

A bicyclist was charged with manslaughter after he ran through a stop
sign and struck and killed a 71-year-old woman, police said Monday.

Cyclists have been getting too reckless for a long time. A pedestrian
here, a month ago, was mowed down by a hit and run bicyclist. Broke the
pedestrians jaw. The victim wants bicycles to have license plates, because
there is no way to track these law breakers down.

"Claudius Vitalis" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

A bicyclist was charged with manslaughter after he ran through a stop
sign and struck and killed a 71-year-old woman, police said Monday.

Cyclists have been getting too reckless for a long time. A pedestrian
here, a month ago, was mowed down by a hit and run bicyclist. Broke the
pedestrians jaw. The victim wants bicycles to have license plates,
because
there is no way to track these law breakers down.

Like someone's going to be able to read the license plate of a fleeing
cyclist.

Claudius Vitalis said:

The victim wants bicycles to have license plates, because
there is no way to track these law breakers down.

Well they'd have to make the plates out of Ti or Carbon and they'd have
to be really small with really small numbers or else they'd just be too
heavy.
Maybe just a decal would work. You could stick it under the BB.

This looks like a case for Bob Mionske.

I don't really get it...Cars kill people every day by running stop
signs or red lights (and don't get charged with Manslaughter).

Quoted message said:

This looks like a case for Bob Mionske.

I don't really get it...Cars kill people every day by running stop
signs or red lights (and don't get charged with Manslaughter).

Your on the same track that I am I think. If I was involved with one
of the cycling advocacy groups out there, I'd be digging hard to see
what the PD's response to cyclists hit and injured/killed by cars and
what charges were briught forward. None of this would be any good in
court, but you sure could make the PD answer some questions, if as I
suspect, the PD there has failed to press, or pressed minimum charges
when the cyclists were the victims.
Unfortunately there seems to be a huge double standard in most places.
I'd be very happy to be wrong, but even here we've had some
interesting experiences with the local PDs.
Bill C

I've seen no less than 5 bike messengers do the same thing in
Manhattan, and two of them decided to get in fist fights with the
people they hit. One of the messengers was huled off by the cops. No
surprise, because most of those guys are bad-ass weed fiends.

I learned my lesson in Manhattan once. I was out riding my vintage
"paperboy" bike when I decided to cut the wrong way down a deserted
street early on a Sunday morning. No big deal, right? Well, I forgot
just how used a pedestrian gets to a street being one-way, and a couple
walked right out in front of me with no warning whatsoever and I
crashed into them (at low speed). Totally my fault. I apologized and
never did it again. Luckily no one was hurt and there were no cops
around.

I think we're all glad when anyone is charged with manslaughter for
killing someone while operating their vehicle. That is unusual (unless
you are drunk or high), unfortunately. There usually is no real
penalty for killing someone with your vehicle. In California they are
trying to pass a law to add penalties for inflicting bodily injury
while operating a vehicle (SB1021). It will cost you $150 to hurt
someone if it ever passes.

I think we all hope this arrest and charge is the start of a uniform
wave of charges related to vehicular manslaughter, applied to all
vehicles which kill and maim. If this new enforcement happens to begin
with a cyclist, so be it. Who can defend the cyclist who runs a stop
sign and kills an old lady? Let's hope this police action continues
with the real problem though: cars which run over and kill cyclists
and pedestrians to the tune of hundreds of cycling deaths and thousands
of pedestrian deaths each year.

(This is a US problem more so than a Euro problem, so the Euros can pat
themselves on the back for avoiding these issues).

Accidents happen. Why put people in jail over it? Simply because they
had the audacity to make a mistake? Shouldn't recklessness have a
factor in it?

The bike messenger that rides with no hands and no brakes is quite a
bit different than a guy who simply didn't stop at a stop sign.

Quoted message said:

The bike messenger that rides with no hands and no brakes is quite a
bit different than a guy who simply didn't stop at a stop sign.

That's not an accident. He did not accidentally run the stop sign.
The bigger problem is that he killed someone while doing it. Lack of
intent makes the crime a manslaughter rather than a murder. Lack of
intent, or "accident", is not a get-out-of-jail-free card.

When you operate a vehicle you take on a responsibility to protect
others. When you operate recklessly and hurt or kill others, you
should pay the price. With accidents, there is an at-fault person and
there should be penalties for that person. If you kill someone, there
should be serious penalties. This is the only way to influence people
to take more care.

Quoted message said:

Accidents happen. Why put people in jail over it? Simply because they
had the audacity to make a mistake? Shouldn't recklessness have a
factor in it?

The bike messenger that rides with no hands and no brakes is quite a
bit different than a guy who simply didn't stop at a stop sign.

Unfortunately a lot of times the idea that it's an "accident" is
pretty far fetched.
I can't find the referenced comment but here's a bit of info:
http://www.ihpva.org/pipermail/hpv/2000-December/011790.html

Quoted:
I wrote to Mark Horowitz, our bike/ped coordinator, regarding the crash
statistics and traffic law. First, he replied:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Regarding the sentiments surrounding Gene's untimely demise, Dr. Martinez,

the head of the National Highway Safety Administration, made a similar
comment about the best was to kill someone was to run them over.

I'm with you in that cyclists who break the law and help create the
atmosphere we have to put up with [censored] me off even more. A while ago we
had two riders stopped and harrassed by the cops. Threason being
"ypu're all [censored] and don't belong on the roads!" They were riding
side by side on a suburban street with no traffic and no cars parked on
the shoulder, both were cited for impeding the nonexistant traffic. We
had a rider hit from behind on a rural 2 lane State highway lined with
houses fields and a couple of small businesses last year. he was riding
all the way to the right, on the shoulder, way across the white line
when he was hit, there were several witnesses that stated all of this.
The cop who handled it said he swerved out in front of the car, and
shouldn't have been on that road anyway, though none of the witnesses
supported this, and a few argued vehemently with him that he was wrong.
Needless to say, even when this was all given to the local pd when the
cyclist protested his treatment not a damn thing was done, not even an
apology. he was told that if you engage in dangerous behavior,
accidents happen.
Once in a while, it seems, you get decent treatment, we had a junior
hit a while ago, luckily he wasn't hurt, when a car broke every rule in
the book to turn right in front of him. In spite of the fact that the
accident reconstruction showed that the car driver was totally at
fault, no citation was given. The cop explained that since the driver
hadn't actually hit him, just turned in front of him forcing him to
slam into the side of the car while trying to evade, that he would be
unable to make any charge stick even though he was a cyclist himself
and was convinced that the driver was wrong. The officer was very
knowledgeable, sympathetic, and convinced that there should have been
something done, but PD policy said that this was an "accident". We're
in the middle of another one that's worse than this all around because
the driver has been involved in several other crashes recently, and
there was injury and major damage, but it too, was declared an
"accident" with no citations issued and excuses made for the driver by
the PD. Everything says the driver was going too fast for existing
conditions which led directly to the accident, but I don't want to say
much yet.
Bill C

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

A bicyclist was charged with manslaughter after he ran through a stop
sign and struck and killed a 71-year-old woman, police said Monday.

Here in the Northern Virginia suburbs two cyclists were killed in three
days on the popular W&OD trail. Despite the fact that Virginia law
_clearly_ gives bicycles on mixed-use trails the "same rights and
duties as pedestrians" the Loudon County sheriff's office is trumping
up charges on cyclists for not coming to _complete_ stops before
entering the crosswalks. They are probably trying to protect the county
from responsibility for its failure to properly maintain the
crosswalks, IMO. Unfortunately, it means that motorists not only get to
kill any bicyclist who doesn't completely stop at crosswalks, the
motorists have NO responsibility for avoiding them even after they
stopped because the bicyclist's responsibility to yield to traffic is
absolute (assuming that it can't be proven that it was a case of
assault with a motor vehicle).

(The standard for a pedestrian entering a crosswalk is basically don't
be stupid- yield to the 2-ton hunks of metal. But once you're in the
crosswalk the cars are supposed to stop, and they'd damn well better be
careful as they approach it.)

So we have two dead bicyclists and it's open season on the rest of us.
Unfortunately, there are many children using the path, and they may not
realize, even with the thoughtful assistance of the Loudon County
Deputies giving them tickets, that they can legally be run down now.

Time to see a lawyer.
-------------
Alex

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

A bicyclist was charged with manslaughter after he ran through a stop
sign and struck and killed a 71-year-old woman, police said Monday.

Cyclists have been getting too reckless for a long time. A pedestrian
here, a month ago, was mowed down by a hit and run bicyclist. Broke the
pedestrians jaw. The victim wants bicycles to have license plates, because
there is no way to track these law breakers down.

More details please. From the few details you give it is hard to say who
is at fault.
---------------
Alex

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

I've seen no less than 5 bike messengers do the same thing in
Manhattan, and two of them decided to get in fist fights with the
people they hit. One of the messengers was huled off by the cops. No
surprise, because most of those guys are bad-ass weed fiends.

Don't be so quick to blame the cyclist. Pedestrians in Manhattan can be
pretty stupid and walk out in front of a vehicle even when the pedestrian
has a red light.

Quoted message said:

I learned my lesson in Manhattan once. I was out riding my vintage
"paperboy" bike when I decided to cut the wrong way down a deserted
street early on a Sunday morning. No big deal, right?

Of course it is a big deal. You are going the wrong way down a one way
street.

Quoted message said:

Well, I forgot
just how used a pedestrian gets to a street being one-way, and a couple
walked right out in front of me with no warning whatsoever and I
crashed into them (at low speed). Totally my fault. I apologized and
never did it again. Luckily no one was hurt and there were no cops
around.

That is why it is a big deal.
-------------
Alex

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

I think we're all glad when anyone is charged with manslaughter for
killing someone while operating their vehicle. That is unusual (unless
you are drunk or high), unfortunately. There usually is no real
penalty for killing someone with your vehicle. In California they are
trying to pass a law to add penalties for inflicting bodily injury
while operating a vehicle (SB1021). It will cost you $150 to hurt
someone if it ever passes.

I think we all hope this arrest and charge is the start of a uniform
wave of charges related to vehicular manslaughter, applied to all
vehicles which kill and maim. If this new enforcement happens to begin
with a cyclist, so be it. Who can defend the cyclist who runs a stop
sign and kills an old lady? Let's hope this police action continues
with the real problem though: cars which run over and kill cyclists
and pedestrians to the tune of hundreds of cycling deaths and thousands
of pedestrian deaths each year.

I hope that you have to prove fault first. Pedestrians do some really stupid
things, just like vehicle operators. I have noticed that most of the recent
stupid moves, both pedestrian and vehicle operators, usually involve someone on
their cell phone.
---------------
Alex