Killer bus driver- trial starts

[spindrift]

First day of the trial is reported here:
http://www.thisisoxfordshire.co.uk/display.var.987292.0.crash_accused_not_chatting.php

Some grim remarks concerning cyclist safety.

"Willis replied: "I understand what you are saying, but if every bus
driver in the city did not overtake a cyclist without giving 6-8ft the
whole city would grind to a halt, so where do you draw the line?""

FFS!!!!

 

[BigRab]

spindrift wrote:

> "Willis replied: "I understand what you are saying, but if every bus
> driver in the city did not overtake a cyclist without giving 6-8ft the
> whole city would grind to a halt, so where do you draw the line?""
> FFS!!!!

and.... He said his experience told him he had time to go past Miss
Harris before a central island ahead narrowed the carriageway and
squeezed the available space.

So all cyclists travel at the same speed?
His experience wan't worth a damn in this case.
Robert

 

[spindrift]

Essentially, "We can't avoid killing cyclists, it would make the buses
late!"

 

[Wheelist]

BigRab wrote:
> spindrift wrote:
>
>> "Willis replied: "I understand what you are saying, but if every bus
>> driver in the city did not overtake a cyclist without giving 6-8ft the
>> whole city would grind to a halt, so where do you draw the line?""
>> FFS!!!!
>
> and.... He said his experience told him he had time to go past Miss
> Harris before a central island ahead narrowed the carriageway and
> squeezed the available space.
>
> So all cyclists travel at the same speed?
> His experience wan't worth a damn in this case.
> Robert
>

What about the 4x4 driver coming the other way, overtaking a cyclist who
was already overtaking parked cars? Just how wide is the Cowley Road?
(Wide enough for a car, 2 bikes, a 4x4 and a bus to travel side by side?)

 

[sothach]

Wheelist wrote:

>Just how wide is the Cowley Road? (Wide enough for a car, 2 bikes,
>a 4x4 and a bus to travel side by side?)

Not even close, and if it was near the top, it is heavily 'traffic
calmed' and hardly wide enough for a 4x4 (brilliant area with pubs,
ethnic resturants, guitar shop, 2 bike shops - ok, one is Cycle King,
but still...)

 

[Andrew Chadwick]

On 2006-10-26 13:39 +0000, Wheelist wrote:
> BigRab wrote:
> Just how wide is the Cowley Road?
> (Wide enough for a car, 2 bikes, a 4x4 and a bus to travel side by side?)

There were some recent works on the road which changed it from a narrow,
heavily trafficed street into a slightly better-thought-out but equally
narrow and heavily trafficed street with shinier road furniture, a small
number of good cycle stands, and a (slightly redundant and poorly
implemented) 20mph limit.

Maps and pictures of the current state and before at
http://www.eastoxford.com/beta/eoaltd/Cowley_Road/Cowley_index.htm

Note that the death in question happened before any of this new stuff
went in, so you can't really go by the maps on the site. But it'll give
you an idea.

Also http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/oxfordshire/3605954.stm .

--
Andrew Chadwick

 

[Don Whybrow]

Andrew Chadwick wrote:
>
> There were some recent works on the road which changed it from a narrow,
> heavily trafficed street into a slightly better-thought-out but equally
> narrow and heavily trafficed street with shinier road furniture, a small
> number of good cycle stands, and a (slightly redundant and poorly
> implemented) 20mph limit.
>
> Maps and pictures of the current state and before at
> http://www.eastoxford.com/beta/eoaltd/Cowley_Road/Cowley_index.htm
>
> Note that the death in question happened before any of this new stuff
> went in, so you can't really go by the maps on the site. But it'll give
> you an idea.
>
> Also http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/oxfordshire/3605954.stm .

Does the following show it before the works?

http://local.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&cp=51.744489~-1.233108&style=h&lvl=15

You may need to zoom in a bit to the scene of the crash.


--
Don Whybrow

Sequi Bonum Non Time

People must not do things for fun. We are not here for fun. There is no
reference to fun in any Act of Parliament.

 

[Pyromancer]

spindrift wrote:
> First day of the trial is reported here:
> http://www.thisisoxfordshire.co.uk/display.var.987292.0.crash_accused_not_chatting.php

> Some grim remarks concerning cyclist safety.
>
> "Willis replied: "I understand what you are saying, but if every bus
> driver in the city did not overtake a cyclist without giving 6-8ft the
> whole city would grind to a halt, so where do you draw the line?""
>
> FFS!!!!

That is the common attitude of drivers IMO. However much it might say
"allow the same space as for a car" in the HC, in reality most car
drivers will give about 3/4 a car-width when the road is wide and
unobstructed, but if it narrows they just pass closer, down to a few
inches away if they can.

Note also the underlying assumption that motor vehicles are much faster
than cyclists and therefore *must pass before the narrowing", mentioned
in another post.

 

[Dan Gregory]

Pyromancer wrote:

> That is the common attitude of drivers IMO. However much it might say
> "allow the same space as for a car" in the HC, in reality most car
> drivers will give about 3/4 a car-width when the road is wide and
> unobstructed, but if it narrows they just pass closer, down to a few
> inches away if they can.

Not if that means their offside wheels might stray across the centre
lines...
:-((

 

[Tony Raven]

Pyromancer wrote on 26/10/2006 20:46 +0100:
> spindrift wrote:
>> First day of the trial is reported here:
>> http://www.thisisoxfordshire.co.uk/display.var.987292.0.crash_accused_not_chatting.php
>>
>
>> Some grim remarks concerning cyclist safety.
>>
>> "Willis replied: "I understand what you are saying, but if every
>> bus driver in the city did not overtake a cyclist without giving
>> 6-8ft the whole city would grind to a halt, so where do you draw
>> the line?""
>>
>> FFS!!!!
>
> That is the common attitude of drivers IMO. However much it might
> say "allow the same space as for a car" in the HC, in reality most
> car drivers will give about 3/4 a car-width when the road is wide and
> unobstructed, but if it narrows they just pass closer, down to a few
> inches away if they can.
>

OTOH I doubt it will do his case much good. He's as good as admitting
passing close because he couldn't be bothered to wait. I doubt his
lawyer is happy with his comment.

--
Tony

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci

 

[Pyromancer]

Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as Tony Raven
<[email protected]> gently breathed:
>Pyromancer wrote on 26/10/2006 20:46 +0100:
>> spindrift wrote:
>>> First day of the trial is reported here: http://www.thisisoxfordshi
>>>re.co.uk/display.var.987292.0.crash_accused_not_chatting.php

>>> Some grim remarks concerning cyclist safety.
>>> "Willis replied: "I understand what you are saying, but if every
>>> bus driver in the city did not overtake a cyclist without giving
>>> 6-8ft the whole city would grind to a halt, so where do you draw
>>> the line?""
>>> FFS!!!!

>> That is the common attitude of drivers IMO. However much it might
>> say "allow the same space as for a car" in the HC, in reality most
>> car drivers will give about 3/4 a car-width when the road is wide and
>> unobstructed, but if it narrows they just pass closer, down to a few
>> inches away if they can.

>OTOH I doubt it will do his case much good. He's as good as admitting
>passing close because he couldn't be bothered to wait. I doubt his
>lawyer is happy with his comment.

Indeed - and hopefully it might mean some publicity for "leave more
room" if/when he gets convicted. Still won't change the behaviour of
more than a handful of drivers though. :-(

--
- DJ Pyromancer, The Sunday Goth Social, Leeds. <http://www.sheepish.net>

Broadband, Dialup, Domains = <http://www.wytches.net> = The UK's Pagan ISP!
<http://www.inkubus-sukkubus.co.uk> <http://www.revival.stormshadow.com>

 

[Marc Brett]

On 26 Oct 2006 03:43:27 -0700, "spindrift" <[email protected]> wrote:

>First day of the trial is reported here:
>http://www.thisisoxfordshire.co.uk/display.var.987292.0.crash_accused_not_chatting.php
>
>Some grim remarks concerning cyclist safety.
>
>"Willis replied: "I understand what you are saying, but if every bus
>driver in the city did not overtake a cyclist without giving 6-8ft the
>whole city would grind to a halt, so where do you draw the line?""
>
>FFS!!!!

Guilty!

http://www.oxfordmail.net/news/headlines/display.var.990300.0.well_below_acceptable.php

Sentence for driver Paul Willis:
* £500 for careless driving
* £50 for talking while driving
* 8 points on license -- not enough to disqualify
* £500 costs

Sentence for colleague Henry Stewart:
* £50 for talking to the driver
* £50 costs

 

[BigRab]

>"allow the same space as for a car"

I've asked what people think this means and they very often say that
they think they only have to leave the same GAP as they would passing
another car ie a couple of feet at best.

I think the HC needs clarifying , Ok I know drivers don't read it after
passing the miserable test and I know theres a picture for the hard of
thinking.

Maybe the police should be able to stop and quiz vehicle users on the
HC at random and if you get two wrong answers out of five you have to
walk home

Robert

 

[Tony Raven]

Marc Brett wrote on 27/10/2006 10:51 +0100:
>
> Guilty!
>
> http://www.oxfordmail.net/news/headlines/display.var.990300.0.well_below_acceptable.php
>
>
> Sentence for driver Paul Willis: * £500 for careless driving * £50
> for talking while driving * 8 points on license -- not enough to
> disqualify * £500 costs
>
> Sentence for colleague Henry Stewart: * £50 for talking to the
> driver * £50 costs
>

And now after a long wait without any, we'll probably get three Ian
Hendens turning up together to defend the driver(s)



--
Tony

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci

 

[Rob Morley]

In article <[email protected]>
BigRab <[email protected]> wrote:
> >"allow the same space as for a car"
>
> I've asked what people think this means and they very often say that
> they think they only have to leave the same GAP as they would passing
> another car ie a couple of feet at best.
>
> I think the HC needs clarifying , Ok I know drivers don't read it after
> passing the miserable test and I know theres a picture for the hard of
> thinking.
>
> Maybe the police should be able to stop and quiz vehicle users on the
> HC at random and if you get two wrong answers out of five you have to
> walk home
>
Random re-tests would be fun - drivers could be nominated by the police
and every month a few lucky winners selected in each area to receive a
free test at their local centre.

 

[Andrew Chadwick]

On 2006-10-26 18:05 +0000, Don Whybrow wrote:
> Does the following show it before the works?
>
> http://local.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&cp=51.744489~-1.233108&style=h&lvl=15
>
> You may need to zoom in a bit to the scene of the crash.

That's it, yes. Current cycle lanes (bah) are green, and the road
now features little lane-centre patches of green with a picture of a
bicycle where in the narrow central bit that everyone decided was too
narrow to fit even a very narrow cycle lane in.

Also, useful resource: google's maps didn't cover that area in any useful
detail last time I checked. The pics look to be about 2-3 years out of
date only.

--
Andrew Chadwick

 

[David Hansen]

On 27 Oct 2006 03:00:02 -0700 someone who may be "BigRab"
<[email protected]> wrote this:-

>I think the HC needs clarifying,

IIRC the current wording, which is confusing, was introduced to
condone motorists passing closer than in previous editions.

Never forget that the Highway Code is written by motorists for
motorists. This has now been made explicit by getting the Driving
Standards Agency to draft the thing.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

 

[David Hansen]

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 10:51:24 +0100 someone who may be Marc Brett
<[email protected]> wrote this:-

>http://www.oxfordmail.net/news/headlines/display.var.990300.0.well_below_acceptable.php
>
>Sentence for driver Paul Willis:
>* £500 for careless driving
>* £50 for talking while driving
>* 8 points on license -- not enough to disqualify
>* £500 costs

This "punishment" makes an interesting contrast with the case of the
cyclist in Telford who was cycling properly but supposedly
"inconvenienced" motorists.

Was the death of the cyclist mentioned in this court case, or was it
a "minor detail" that did not need mentioning?


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

 

[ian henden]

"David Hansen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 10:51:24 +0100 someone who may be Marc Brett
> <[email protected]> wrote this:-
>
>>http://www.oxfordmail.net/news/headlines/display.var.990300.0.well_below_acceptable.php
>>
>>Sentence for driver Paul Willis:
>>* £500 for careless driving
>>* £50 for talking while driving
>>* 8 points on license -- not enough to disqualify
>>* £500 costs
[....]

It won't stop there.

The Traffic Commissioners might revoke / refuse to renew his PCV licence....
they certainly have the power to do so.

 

[Mike Murphy]

>>>http://www.oxfordmail.net/news/headlines/display.var.990300.0.well_below_acceptable.php
>>>
>>>Sentence for driver Paul Willis:
>>>* £500 for careless driving
>>>* £50 for talking while driving
>>>* 8 points on license -- not enough to disqualify
>>>* £500 costs
>[....]
>
>It won't stop there.
>
>The Traffic Commissioners might revoke / refuse to renew his PCV licence....
>they certainly have the power to do so.

Interesting to read the bus company's environmental and social report
2006, available at:

http://www.oxfordbus.co.uk/

Where they say:

"Our responsibility: safety and security of passengers, employees
and the general public
Safety of passengers, employees and the general public is a huge
priority for us and we have invested in a comprehensive health
and safety management system. We believe that each employee
has a personal responsibility for health and safety improvement;
to support them, we run safety committees, carry out risk
assessments and have a team of super assessors to raise issues."

and:

"Our responsibility: reducing congestion
Oxford faces unique pressures due to its medieval street pattern.
We recognise that a balance is needed between the needs of
pedestrians, cyclists, buses and other road users and our
Stakeholder Board helps us to judge how this can be achieved.
We also work closely with the city and county councils."

and, in case you need a contact point:

"If you have any comments, views or ideas on how we
might improve, or have any thoughts on other issues
that we should address in this report, please use the
enclosed form or write to:
Philip Kirk
Managing Director
Oxford Bus Company
Cowley House
Watlington Road
Oxford OX4 6GA
Tel: 01865 785400
Email: [email protected]"

- Mike

who's been nearly knocked off be several buses recently..