Knee pain from SPD pedals

dgk said:

Two weeks after starting to use SPD pedals one of my knees is hurting
a bit. The only adjustment I know of (besides the release setting) is
to move the cleat either forward or backward, whichever of the two
sets of screws is not in use.

You can also adjust the angle of the cleats (i.e., to make your toes point
inward, straight, or outward). That is an important adjustment. You foot
position should be whatever is comfortable for you.

The fore-aft cleat position should put the ball of your foot directly over
the pedal axle or _slightly_ in front of the pedal axle, never behind.

Quoted message said:

I can also move ME on the bike by adjusting the seat position. Any
advice appreciated.

Knee pain can be caused by a to high or low saddle. Too low usually results
in pain in the front of the knee, and vice versa. Raise your saddle until
your hips just start to rock when pedaling, and then bring it down a few mm.
Pushing big gears can also cause knee pain.

Art Harris

I my area they have a shop that does fitting for cleats also. They spend
about 45 minutes making sure you are set up right. They charge about $30.

"dgk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Two weeks after starting to use SPD pedals one of my knees is hurting
a bit. The only adjustment I know of (besides the release setting) is
to move the cleat either forward or backward, whichever of the two
sets of screws is not in use.

I can also move ME on the bike by adjusting the seat position. Any
advice appreciated.

dgk said:

Two weeks after starting to use SPD pedals one of my knees is hurting
a bit. The only adjustment I know of (besides the release setting) is
to move the cleat either forward or backward, whichever of the two
sets of screws is not in use.

I can also move ME on the bike by adjusting the seat position. Any
advice appreciated.

I once helped install a person's first pair of clipless cleats. I was
lobbying hard for the pedal axle to be under the ball of the foot
(standard position). She insisted on a different position -
unfortunately, I forget if she wanted her foot further forward or
further back.

In any case, after about 250 miles of riding, she was having
significant pain under the kneecap. She then listened to me, we
adjusted them so the axle was under the ball of her foot, and the pain
soon went away.

As others have said, the side-to-side angle is also important. If
you're pigeon-toed and have your pedals adjusted duck-footed, you'll do
knee damage.

Cleats really do need precise adjusting, at least for many people.

- Frank Krygowski

dgk <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Two weeks after starting to use SPD pedals one of my knees is hurting
a bit. The only adjustment I know of (besides the release setting) is
to move the cleat either forward or backward, whichever of the two
sets of screws is not in use.

I can also move ME on the bike by adjusting the seat position. Any
advice appreciated.

If you could provide a little more detail on the location of the pain,
it would help.

Top of kneecap, bottom of kneecap tendon, medial knee (inside), lateral
knee (outside); each had specific causes and remedies.

As noted before, some pain comes from too low a seat/large forces, some
from too high a seat/overextension, some from improper seat fore and aft
adjustment (on the seat post), and some from improper cleat alignment.

You might want to take the advice I read somewhere and walk with wet
feet across a surface that will show your footprints to get the
orientation of your feet, and then differentially adjust your clips
to match.

You might also want to take the clips off and see just how they
can be adjusted. The ones I'm familiar with allow fore and aft
adjustment, both in the clip slot for the bolt head and in the shoe
socket for the bolt, along with rotary positioning via knurled mating
surfaces.

I've fiddled around for a couple rides to get the right cleat radial
adjustment.

I've used Road Cycling; Gregor and Conconi, editors; Blackwell Science;
ISBN 086542912X; which is a product of the IOC Medical Commission both
for the general biomechanics and specific medical advice.

dgk said:

Two weeks after starting to use SPD pedals one of my knees is hurting
a bit. The only adjustment I know of (besides the release setting) is
to move the cleat either forward or backward, whichever of the two
sets of screws is not in use.

I can also move ME on the bike by adjusting the seat position. Any
advice appreciated.

Maybe something on this site can help....

http://www.cptips.com/knee.htm

At Sat, 25 Jun 2005 08:49:12 -0400, message
<[email hidden]> was posted by "Arthur Harris"
<[email hidden]>, including some, all or none of the following:

Quoted message said:

You can also adjust the angle of the cleats (i.e., to make your toes point
inward, straight, or outward). That is an important adjustment. You foot
position should be whatever is comfortable for you.

What Art said. In every respect - SPDs are not quite the same as
platform pedals, so the saddle height will likely be subtly different,
but it took me a few tries to get the adjustment right on the cleats.
In the end I find that getting the inner side of the shoe parallel
with the crank works for me, but it's going to be different for
everyone.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

Different shoes have different sole thickness, this can throw off your
seat height some, but it shouldn't be so much as to cause serious
trouble. Also, it should be immediately apparent to you if your foot os
too far forward or back. The problem may be in the angle of the cleat.

Many people have a natural twist to their foot as they pedal, this is
why many of the modern pedal cleats have a built in "float". That is,
when clipped in, the shoe can twist freely slightly. This also allows a
little sloppiness in setting the angle of the cleat, Too much
inaccuracy, however, can lead to trouble.

Ride your bike, and pay particular attention to the guilty leg. At any
point of your pedal stroke does it seem like your foot is trying to
twist out of the pedal? Note, this may be just a slight pressure. But
it should not be pressing against either of the cleat's "float limit"
anywhere during your pedal stroke.

If it is, the cleat is adjusted wrong and is preventing your foot from
twisting as it should. If this is so, determine which direction the
pedal is "fighting" against your foot and adjust the angle of the cleat
to allow your foot to twist naturally.

- -

"May you have the winds at your back,
And a really low gear for the hills!"

Chris Zacho ~ "Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman"

Chris'Z Corner
http://www.geocities.com/czcorner

"dgk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Two weeks after starting to use SPD pedals one of my knees is hurting
a bit. The only adjustment I know of (besides the release setting) is
to move the cleat either forward or backward, whichever of the two
sets of screws is not in use.

I can also move ME on the bike by adjusting the seat position. Any
advice appreciated.

Thing one: changing to clipless will virtually guarantee you'll need to
adjust your saddle position. Your foot is almost certainly closer to the
pedal spindle than it was before, so you're extending your knee more. And
since changing your saddle height automatically moves it fore or aft, there
will be an effect on reach (albeit small) as well.

Also, clipless pedals center your foot laterally on the pedal. Were they in
the same position before? It's usually a good idea to carefully observe
where your feet "want" to rest naturally on a platform type pedal (and to
measure how far that position actually is from the center of the bottom
bracket), so that the position imposed by the cleats isn't too radically
different. The distance between the pedals is the "Q factor," and if you
used to ride with your feet towards the outside of the pedals and the new
ones are forcing them closer to the centerline of the bike, you may need
different pedals.

The angle of the foot relative to the pedal spindle is also important. If
you're naturally "pigeon-toed," for example, forcing perpendicularity can
cause stress on your knees. Cleats can be adjusted to accommodate a bit of
an angle.

Personally, I found that it was important to keep my knees a bit behind the
pedal spindle, when measured as shown here in section D:
http://www.coloradocyclist.com/bikefit/. If my knees were too far forward of
the spindle I had knee pain.

RichC

Rich Clark said:

"dgk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Two weeks after starting to use SPD pedals one of my knees is hurting
a bit. The only adjustment I know of (besides the release setting) is
to move the cleat either forward or backward, whichever of the two
sets of screws is not in use.

I can also move ME on the bike by adjusting the seat position. Any
advice appreciated.

Thing one: changing to clipless will virtually guarantee you'll need to
adjust your saddle position. Your foot is almost certainly closer to the
pedal spindle than it was before, so you're extending your knee more. And
since changing your saddle height automatically moves it fore or aft, there
will be an effect on reach (albeit small) as well.

Also, clipless pedals center your foot laterally on the pedal. Were they in
the same position before? It's usually a good idea to carefully observe
where your feet "want" to rest naturally on a platform type pedal (and to
measure how far that position actually is from the center of the bottom
bracket), so that the position imposed by the cleats isn't too radically
different. The distance between the pedals is the "Q factor," and if you
used to ride with your feet towards the outside of the pedals and the new
ones are forcing them closer to the centerline of the bike, you may need
different pedals.

The angle of the foot relative to the pedal spindle is also important. If
you're naturally "pigeon-toed," for example, forcing perpendicularity can
cause stress on your knees. Cleats can be adjusted to accommodate a bit of
an angle.

Personally, I found that it was important to keep my knees a bit behind the
pedal spindle, when measured as shown here in section D:
http://www.coloradocyclist.com/bikefit/. If my knees were too far forward of
the spindle I had knee pain.

RichC

Thanks to all for helping. I will search around for a place that
adjusts the cleats - I have two ideas. First is the Time's Up guys
next Thursday night during the repair clinic. Second is a shop run by
the son (or grandson) of Francisco Cuevas, who was apparently fairly
well known as a frame builder. Their shop is just a few blocks off of
my normal commute home. It seems almost more of a club than a shop.

However, first I'm likely to not bike at all for a few days. Someone
mentioned in an earlier thread that the best thing for knee pain is to
rest it. Seems like good advice. This went from me wondering whether
something was hurting a bit coming home yesterday to limping around
nicely today. I just iced it and it is much better, plus I'm going to
take a few of those Darvocets that are left over from elbow surgery.
One at a time though.

I'm going to put the platform pedals back on temporarily and start off
that way after it stops hurting. Hopefully that will only be a few
days.

I wish I could tell exactly where the pain is but it is just somewhere
in the front center of the joint, a bit on the left side. I'll call
the Cuevas shop and seek their advice early next week.

:
: Many people have a natural twist to their foot as they pedal, this is
: why many of the modern pedal cleats have a built in "float". That is,
: when clipped in, the shoe can twist freely slightly. This also allows a
: little sloppiness in setting the angle of the cleat, Too much
: inaccuracy, however, can lead to trouble.
:
: Ride your bike, and pay particular attention to the guilty leg. At any
: point of your pedal stroke does it seem like your foot is trying to
: twist out of the pedal? Note, this may be just a slight pressure. But
: it should not be pressing against either of the cleat's "float limit"
: anywhere during your pedal stroke.
:
: If it is, the cleat is adjusted wrong and is preventing your foot from
: twisting as it should. If this is so, determine which direction the
: pedal is "fighting" against your foot and adjust the angle of the cleat
: to allow your foot to twist naturally.

This is what happened to me. My left foot tracks straight ahead, but the
toes of my right foot want to point slightly away from the bicycle. If the
cleat doesn't allow this, the knee hurts on the inside. So, you can adjust
the cleats to fit the natural turning of your feet.

Pat in TX

On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 17:19:15 GMT, Neil Brooks <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

dgk said:

Two weeks after starting to use SPD pedals one of my knees is hurting
a bit. The only adjustment I know of (besides the release setting) is
to move the cleat either forward or backward, whichever of the two
sets of screws is not in use.

I can also move ME on the bike by adjusting the seat position. Any
advice appreciated.

Maybe something on this site can help....

http://www.cptips.com/knee.htm

Very helpful. Thank you. When I go back to SPD then I will do higher
rpms and lower gears. I'll also find out how to adjust the float. It's
only on the left knee so something is different on that one. No, that
doesn't add up. Neither were a problem until yesterday so it is quite
possible that the right knee will be causing a problem in another few
days. Adjust both.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article <[email hidden]>,

dgk said:

Two weeks after starting to use SPD pedals one of my knees is hurting
a bit. The only adjustment I know of (besides the release setting) is
to move the cleat either forward or backward, whichever of the two
sets of screws is not in use.

I can also move ME on the bike by adjusting the seat position. Any
advice appreciated.

_ Check out the cleat position articles in the Q&A section at

http://www.cyclingnews.com/

_ Moving the cleat back might solve all your problems and it's
certainly a simple thing to try.

_ Booker C. Bense

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Booker C. Bense said:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article <[email hidden]>,

dgk said:

Two weeks after starting to use SPD pedals one of my knees is hurting
a bit. The only adjustment I know of (besides the release setting) is
to move the cleat either forward or backward, whichever of the two
sets of screws is not in use.

I can also move ME on the bike by adjusting the seat position. Any
advice appreciated.

_ Check out the cleat position articles in the Q&A section at

http://www.cyclingnews.com/

_ Moving the cleat back might solve all your problems and it's
certainly a simple thing to try.

_ Booker C. Bense

That site sure is overkill. Lots of stuff there. It's hard to get a
feeling from the three letters that I read but I will try moving the
cleats around until I get a better feel.

Part of my problem last week was that I was riding with a flat, sort
of. I had noticed that I was just dragging along, in fact I looked at
the brakes to make sure that they weren't rubbing. The odd thing was
that the rear tire looked fine when I looked down at it.

Later on I checked the tire and it certainly felt low. I checked the
tread and found a nice sized piece of glass, so I pulled it out. But
the tire was far from flat, so I pumped more air into it and continued
on my way. When I passed a bike shop I used the hose to really fill
it.

Sunday I had some time and did find a slow leak where the glass had
managed to just nip it. So I patched it and now it's fine. But I think
that I was really putting more pressure on the knees than normal.
Hopefully this weekend I'll get a chance to mess around with the cleat
position. In the meantime I put back the old pedals for the rest of
the week.

dgk said:

That site sure is overkill. Lots of stuff there. It's hard to get a
feeling from the three letters that I read but I will try moving the
cleats around until I get a better feel.

Part of my problem last week was that I was riding with a flat, sort
of. I had noticed that I was just dragging along, in fact I looked at
the brakes to make sure that they weren't rubbing. The odd thing was
that the rear tire looked fine when I looked down at it.

Later on I checked the tire and it certainly felt low. I checked the
tread and found a nice sized piece of glass, so I pulled it out. But
the tire was far from flat, so I pumped more air into it and continued
on my way. When I passed a bike shop I used the hose to really fill
it.

Sunday I had some time and did find a slow leak where the glass had
managed to just nip it. So I patched it and now it's fine. But I think
that I was really putting more pressure on the knees than normal.
Hopefully this weekend I'll get a chance to mess around with the cleat
position. In the meantime I put back the old pedals for the rest of
the week.

It sounds like, you need a decent floor pump and gauge. It is a good
idea, to check your tires before every ride. Looking at them isn't the
answer.

At this time of year, I ride 4-5 days a week. I check and top my tires
off, before each ride. It takes, just a couple of minutes.

Life is Good!
Jeff

On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 03:52:01 GMT, Jeff Starr <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

dgk said:

That site sure is overkill. Lots of stuff there. It's hard to get a
feeling from the three letters that I read but I will try moving the
cleats around until I get a better feel.

Part of my problem last week was that I was riding with a flat, sort
of. I had noticed that I was just dragging along, in fact I looked at
the brakes to make sure that they weren't rubbing. The odd thing was
that the rear tire looked fine when I looked down at it.

Later on I checked the tire and it certainly felt low. I checked the
tread and found a nice sized piece of glass, so I pulled it out. But
the tire was far from flat, so I pumped more air into it and continued
on my way. When I passed a bike shop I used the hose to really fill
it.

Sunday I had some time and did find a slow leak where the glass had
managed to just nip it. So I patched it and now it's fine. But I think
that I was really putting more pressure on the knees than normal.
Hopefully this weekend I'll get a chance to mess around with the cleat
position. In the meantime I put back the old pedals for the rest of
the week.

It sounds like, you need a decent floor pump and gauge. It is a good
idea, to check your tires before every ride. Looking at them isn't the
answer.

At this time of year, I ride 4-5 days a week. I check and top my tires
off, before each ride. It takes, just a couple of minutes.

Life is Good!
Jeff

Sure, I have a nice floor pump and gauge, but I don't take them with
me. I pump them up every week and check each day just by squeezing.

This leak developed somewhere during the inbound commute or perhaps on
the outbound, but it certainly made itself evident on the outbound.

"dgk" wrote: (clip) Later on I checked the tire and it certainly felt low.
(clip) But I think that I was really putting more pressure on the knees than
normal.(clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Certainly a low tire will increase pedaling effort, as does a hill, a
headwind or a higher speed. I tend to ride at a speed which puts an
acceptable load on my legs and lungs. A low tire would tend to make me ride
slower at the usual knee pressure, so I wouldn't expect to develop knee
trouble from a low tire. Doesn't that seem logical to you? Or do you drive
yourself harder to keep speed, regardless?

Leo Lichtman said:

"dgk" wrote: (clip) Later on I checked the tire and it certainly felt low.
(clip) But I think that I was really putting more pressure on the knees than
normal.(clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Certainly a low tire will increase pedaling effort, as does a hill, a
headwind or a higher speed. I tend to ride at a speed which puts an
acceptable load on my legs and lungs. A low tire would tend to make me ride
slower at the usual knee pressure, so I wouldn't expect to develop knee
trouble from a low tire. Doesn't that seem logical to you? Or do you drive
yourself harder to keep speed, regardless?

No, I was definitely going slower. Still, I was feeling the knee at
that time so that was also why I was going slower.

I'm going to resume biking tomorrow. It promises to be wet.

dgk said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Part of my problem last week was that I was riding with a flat, sort
of. I had noticed that I was just dragging along, in fact I looked at
the brakes to make sure that they weren't rubbing. The odd thing was
that the rear tire looked fine when I looked down at it.

Later on I checked the tire and it certainly felt low. I checked the
tread and found a nice sized piece of glass, so I pulled it out. But
the tire was far from flat, so I pumped more air into it and continued
on my way. When I passed a bike shop I used the hose to really fill
it.

Sunday I had some time and did find a slow leak where the glass had
managed to just nip it. So I patched it and now it's fine. But I think
that I was really putting more pressure on the knees than normal.
Hopefully this weekend I'll get a chance to mess around with the cleat
position. In the meantime I put back the old pedals for the rest of
the week.

It sounds like, you need a decent floor pump and gauge. It is a good
idea, to check your tires before every ride. Looking at them isn't the
answer.

At this time of year, I ride 4-5 days a week. I check and top my tires
off, before each ride. It takes, just a couple of minutes.

Life is Good!
Jeff

Sure, I have a nice floor pump and gauge, but I don't take them with
me. I pump them up every week and check each day just by squeezing.

This leak developed somewhere during the inbound commute or perhaps on
the outbound, but it certainly made itself evident on the outbound.

Reread, the post, I was replying to. You make it sound like your tire
problem was during the course of a week, not a single day.

I really don't think that squeezing tires gives you an accurate
reading of air pressure. Bike tires, or more correctly their tubes,
lose a little pressure everyday. By the end of a week, you can be
down, 10-20 pounds. And each day when you squeeze them, they feel very
close to the day before.

Do what ever you want, I believe that checking and topping them off,
takes only 2-3 minutes and is a simple, worthwhile thing to do.

Life is Good!
Jeff

dgk said:

Two weeks after starting to use SPD pedals one of my knees is hurting
a bit. The only adjustment I know of (besides the release setting) is
to move the cleat either forward or backward, whichever of the two
sets of screws is not in use.

Rotation. need to get the rest position of your foot right, because even
with float there is a spring that centers the cleat. This caused me
problems when I used spds, but now that I use Speedplay Frogs, it's no
longer a problem.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Do not worry about your difficulties in mathematics, I can
_`\(,_ | assure you that mine are all greater. -- A. Einstein
(_)/ (_) |