Kool Stop - Thinline or Supra?

The anonymous 'd said:

I need new brake blocks and I hear the Kool Stop Salmons are the
business, but I'm not sure which style I need (for a road bike with
alloy rims and dual-pivot calipers) - I'm guessing Thinline or Supra.
Two questions:

The blurb for the Thinlines says they are great for V-brakes, but are
they OK for calipers?

If you're not worried about style points, get the Kool Stop Continentals.
They will work fine with your dual pivot calipers, last much longer than the
thinlines, and are the least expensive.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/brakeshoes.html#continental

Art Harris

Quoted message said:

I need new brake blocks and I hear the Kool Stop Salmons are the
business, but I'm not sure which style I need (for a road bike with
alloy rims and dual-pivot calipers) - I'm guessing Thinline or Supra.
Two questions:

The blurb for the Thinlines says they are great for V-brakes, but are
they OK for calipers?

I know the Supra are OK for calipers because it says so in the blurb,
but would the longer pad of the Thinlines give [noticeably] superior
performance? They are the same price anyway, so that's not an issue.

Thinlines give better clearance in front, if your fork is on the narrow
side.

However, my favorite model for use with road calipers is the
BMX/Mountain pad. This has the largest usable surface area of any of them.

See: http://harriscyclery.com/brakeshoes

Sheldon "Salmon" Brown
+----------------------------------------+
| It is easier to ask forgiveness |
| than it is to get permission |
| --Admiral Grace Hopper |
+----------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Sheldon Brown said:

However, my favorite model for use with road calipers is the BMX/Mountain
pad. This has the largest usable surface area of any of them.

Is this an advantage? It shouldn't change the amount of friction for a
given applied force, it will just make the force per unit pad area smaller.
The only obvious difference I can see is that it will wear more slowly
(where wear is measured in terms of decreased pad thickness, not volume),
which I suppose could be an advantage for brakes with a large cosine error.

--
Benjamin Lewis

Evelyn the dog, having undergone further modification, pondered the
significance of short-person behavior in pedal-depressed panchromatic
resonance and other highly ambient domains... "Arf", she said.

In message <[email hidden]>, Benjamin Lewis
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Sheldon Brown said:

However, my favorite model for use with road calipers is the BMX/Mountain
pad. This has the largest usable surface area of any of them.

Is this an advantage? It shouldn't change the amount of friction for a
given applied force, it will just make the force per unit pad area smaller.
The only obvious difference I can see is that it will wear more slowly
(where wear is measured in terms of decreased pad thickness, not volume),
which I suppose could be an advantage for brakes with a large cosine error.

Nature has more tricks up her sleeve than you think.

I've taken Sheldon Brown's hint on pads and find that long ones intended
for V brakes work really well with old centre pull callipers. With my
old Weinmanns the modern type with more area one side of the mountings
screamed but I've found some Aztec ones (PBX 6000) that are symmetrical
and they work well at least they do here with the Alesa rims I'm using.
--

Martyn Aldis, e-mail [email hidden]
==============================================================================

Sheldon Brown said:

However, my favorite model for use with road calipers is the
BMX/Mountain pad. This has the largest usable surface area of any of

them.

Interesting. So, is this one of those cases where the name is
irrelevant? Ie, I should ignore the fact that my bike is neither a
mountain bike nor a BMX and fit whichever brake blocks fit?

d.

Bob said:

"41" wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What difference that makes for bicycle brakes, I don't know. It seems
to me that if you aren't getting enough stopping power, you should just
squeeze harder.

And assuming you can still squeeze harder, wouldn't the larger pad
give more stopping power ?

This argument is getting into theoretical/hypothetical area. I have two road
bikes with dual pivot brakes and Kool Stop Salmons. One bike has the
Continentals, the other has "Thinlines" up front and Eagle 2's on the back.
I don't detect any difference in stopping power. And with dual-pivot brakes
(which is what the OP is using), I can't see any situation where there
wouldn't be more than enough braking power available. In fact, I can see
situations where an inexperienced rider could get into trouble by grabbing
the brakes too hard with dual pivots.

The Continentals are half the price of the "fancy" versions, will certainly
last much longer than the "Thinlines," and will stop just as well.

Art Harris

Arthur Harris said:

This argument is getting into theoretical/hypothetical area.

I'm glad you said that because I was beginning to get confused.

Quoted message said:

I don't detect any difference in stopping power. And with dual-pivot

brakes

Quoted message said:

(which is what the OP is using), I can't see any situation where

there

Quoted message said:

wouldn't be more than enough braking power available.

Tbh, I get quite decent braking with the current set-up (using whatever
bog standard brake blocks the LBS had in stock last time I bought) -
except in the wet, which is why I'm interested in Salmons.

Quoted message said:

The Continentals are half the price of the "fancy" versions, will

certainly

Quoted message said:

last much longer than the "Thinlines," and will stop just as well.

They sound like excellent reasons to opt for the Continentals (I hadn't
noticed the price difference, but I just checked and you're absolutely
right). I do have to wonder, though, what in that case is the purpose
of the "fancy" versions - except to confuse the buyer, such as me, who
doesn't know better and is liable to being suckered into buying the
more expensive option under the illusion that it must be better... I
can see that the Thinlines would be helpful where there are clearance
issues, but aside from that...

All this "plow tip" and "concave/convex washers" guff is just marketing
spiel?

d.

davek said:

Tbh, I get quite decent braking with the current set-up (using whatever
bog standard brake blocks the LBS had in stock last time I bought) -
except in the wet, which is why I'm interested in Salmons.

The main advantage of the "salmon" material is that it doesn't get embedded
with grit on wet rides. Most other pads will pick up grit which in turn
gouges metal flakes from the rim which then gets embedded in the rim...

http://www.chainreaction.com/brakeshoes.htm

Quoted message said:

They sound like excellent reasons to opt for the Continentals (I hadn't
noticed the price difference, but I just checked and you're absolutely
right). I do have to wonder, though, what in that case is the purpose
of the "fancy" versions

It's called marketing. If something is different and costs more, it must be
better, right?

Quoted message said:

I can see that the Thinlines would be helpful where there are clearance
issues, but aside from that...

The only reason there's a clearance issue is because the pad is longer, and
there often isn't enogh room between the fork blade and the rim. The shorter
Continental pad doesn't extend behind the fork blade.

Quoted message said:

All this "plow tip" and "concave/convex washers" guff is just marketing
spiel?

The concave/convex washer gives you flexibility in "toeing in" the pad. But
toe in occurs naturally as the pad wears. At worst, you could file the pad a
tiny bit to get proper initial toe in. Don't bend the caliper!

The plow-tip supposedly cleans/plows the rim. In reality, all you have to do
with Continentals is pump them once or twice if any grit gets trapped
between the rim and pad.

As I said, I've tried both types, and overall prefer the Continentals even
disregarding their lower price. Others may disagree.

Art Harris

Bob said:

And assuming you can still squeeze harder, wouldn't the larger pad
give more stopping power ?

This thought is partly what prompted my original question, but from
what Arthur says, I'm beginning to wonder if this is "received wisdom".
Or does anyone care to suggest otherwise?

d.

Arthur Harris said:

As I said, I've tried both types, and overall prefer the Continentals

even

Quoted message said:

disregarding their lower price. Others may disagree.

Others may indeed disagree, but thanks for the helpful comments - I no
longer feel so confused when looking at the Kool Stop brochure...

d.

davek said:

Arthur Harris wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The Continentals are half the price of the "fancy" versions, will
certainly last much longer than the "Thinlines," and will stop just as well.

That's probably true. I don't generally recommend the Thinlines, I
prefer the "BMX/Mountain" model which is similarly thin, but has
considerably more surface area, since the curvature matches the rim not
only on top, but also on the bottom.

Quoted message said:

They sound like excellent reasons to opt for the Continentals (I hadn't
noticed the price difference, but I just checked and you're absolutely
right). I do have to wonder, though, what in that case is the purpose
of the "fancy" versions - except to confuse the buyer, such as me, who
doesn't know better and is liable to being suckered into buying the
more expensive option under the illusion that it must be better... I
can see that the Thinlines would be helpful where there are clearance
issues, but aside from that...

Thinner shoes give a slighly less "spongy" feel because they don't
compress as far. When there's a large surface area, as with the
BMX/Mountain pad, they have good durability.

The longer pads are generally less likely to squeal than the shorter ones.

Quoted message said:

All this "plow tip" and "concave/convex washers" guff is just marketing
spiel?

The plow tip acts as a squeegie, and helps keep grit from getting
trapped betwee the pad and the rim.

The domed washers are very worthwhile, because they allow you to adjust
the pads in the roll and yaw axis for good engagement against the rim.

Pads that lack these washers rely on wearing-in to eventually create a
good fit against the rim. The salmon material is so unusually durable
that it may take quite a while for the Continental to wear in properly.

The Continentals do work fine, we sell lots of them, but I use the
BMX/Mountain model on my own bikes.

(The designations "BMX" and "Mountain" are typical of Kool Stop's inept
marketing. There's nothing about these pads that is specific to either
BMX or mountain applications.)

Sheldon "Saumon" Brown
+--------------------------------------------+
| In order to understand recursion, |
| first, you have to understand recursion. |
+--------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

an eminent LBS told me that the longer pad was not a good idea for a 10
speed center pull.
communications?
the paranoia that the designer is pissing on you is prbablabbbly
incorrect given the market
THAT'S US NOW!!
the squeeze idea for example-that keeps the newfangled pad from the
expletive dleted sidewall whereas the metal back on the old styles
wiggle at 5 pm on 100 degree day at 75 miles every time

the designer's there whether you know it or experience it thatsanother
question.

an eminent LBS told me that the longer pad was not a good idea for a 10
speed center pull.
communications?
the paranoia that the designer is pissing on you is prbablabbbly
incorrect given the market
THAT'S US NOW!!
the squeeze idea for example-that keeps the newfangled pad from the
expletive dleted sidewall whereas the metal back on the old styles
wiggle at 5 pm on 100 degree day at 75 miles every time

the designer's there whether you know it or experience it thatsanother
question.

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

I need new brake blocks and I hear the Kool Stop Salmons are the
business, but I'm not sure which style I need (for a road bike with
alloy rims and dual-pivot calipers) - I'm guessing Thinline or Supra.
Two questions:

The blurb for the Thinlines says they are great for V-brakes, but are
they OK for calipers?

I know the Supra are OK for calipers because it says so in the blurb,
but would the longer pad of the Thinlines give [noticeably] superior
performance? They are the same price anyway, so that's not an issue.

You can buy dura ace compatible holder from Kool Stop. they come with two sets
of pads. Then when you wear out the pads you only need to buy the inserts,
not the entire pad.
--------------
Alex