L4/L5 cocktail

specialized31 said:

When doing both L4 and L5 intervals in the same session is it better to begin with L4 first then L5 or the other way around?

I've been told that pretty much it is always best to do the highest intensity first and then work down in order of intensity.

Mixing L4 and L5 doesn't that create a neither here nor there workout?

Steve_B said:

I've been told that pretty much it is always best to do the highest intensity first and then work down in order of intensity.

specialized31 said:

When doing both L4 and L5 intervals in the same session is it better to begin with L4 first then L5 or the other way around?

paging Timan, paging Timan ....

I also do intervals in descending order of intensity.

@wiredued - what do you mean by 'neither here nor there' ?

What's the common consesus regarding intervals and how many one COULD / SHOULD do before stopping.

If the intervals are at the correct wattage, shold one be able to JUST complete the full set or not.

Just that to my mind, these types of excersises shold be pretty hard and really test one to the point where one MAY not be able to complete a full set.

For example taking Coggan's training program in the book.

There is a workout of 6 x 2min @ 130% and just wondering IF done properly, one should be able to finish them all or JUST about finish them or maybe even only manage 4 or 5.

giannip said:

For example taking Coggan's training program in the book.

There is no training program in our book - only examples provided by Hunter.

Steve_B said:

I've been told that pretty much it is always best to do the highest intensity first and then work down in order of intensity.

That seems to be the common logic; however, I typically do an in-season 'maintence' sorta workout once a week that cosists of 2x18:00 and 3x4:00 (about 12 minutes easy between the L4 and the L5), all flat out for the respective durations. I've never seen any difference in the quality of the efforts depending on which I do first, and I've tried this out quite a bit.

It hurts either way!, and the power #'s end up being the same.

acoggan said:

There is no training program in our book - only examples provided by Hunter.

Weeks 1-16 Workout guide.

giannip said:

What's the common consesus regarding intervals and how many one COULD / SHOULD do before stopping.

If the intervals are at the correct wattage, shold one be able to JUST complete the full set or not.

Just that to my mind, these types of excersises shold be pretty hard and really test one to the point where one MAY not be able to complete a full set.
...

It would depend on the type of interval, no?

specialized31 said:

When doing both L4 and L5 intervals in the same session is it better to begin with L4 first then L5 or the other way around?

I guess that depends on the effect you want to create.

That being said I'm not vicious enough as a coach to prescribe L5 first, then L4 as a standard procedure.

giannip said:

What's the common consesus regarding intervals and how many one COULD / SHOULD do before stopping.

Well there are times where you want to empty the tank, and times where you want to be patient.

In the context of a block for instance, I ask riders to be patient until the end of the block so that the full TSS planned gets booked.

specialized31 said:

When doing both L4 and L5 intervals in the same session is it better to begin with L4 first then L5 or the other way around?

I know it's liquor before beer, but I can never remember whether L4 is the liquor or the beer. I think L1 is warm milk, so L4 is probably beer and L5 harder liquor. I know L6 makes me feel like one of those tequilla shooters where you lay back and the guy poors the booze into your mouth while blowing that loud whistle like crazy and shaking your head all around to mix it up, so I try not to mix those with anything. 🙁

He he frenchy - nice analogy!!

specialized31 said:

When doing both L4 and L5 intervals in the same session is it better to begin with L4 first then L5 or the other way around?

IMO, it depends on the main training focus at the time. If your focus is L4/FTP and the L5 is secondary/maintenance, I'd do keep the L4 as high quality as possible and do it first. If the focus is reversed, I would reverse the order of the workout.

If not focusing on any one particular area, I would certainly do the more intense L5 work first. Same for L6 versus L5 ....

FWIW, back when I was doing hard bi-weekly L5 hill repeats, I found there was no way I could do anything over tempo power afterwards. I could do a solid ~1-hr L5 workout and follow-up that with maybe 1.5hrs tempo. That was plenty hard for me. Perhaps I could have hit LL4 but no way could I have done any true threshold work.

I'd probably do 1*20 min of L4 for warming up for L5, and then after L5 the second 20 min L4 would actually feel like easy. At least the first couple of minutes...

SolarEnergy said:

That being said I'm not vicious enough as a coach to prescribe L5 first, then L4 as a standard procedure.

I agree. For some reason it is mentally easier for me to knock out L4 first and then finish with L5.

If you do both in the same workout isn't the intensity of the workout going to hit some where inbetween L4 and L5 and not be a true VO2max sesion like a 5x5 at 113% to 120% would be?

peterpen said:

I also do intervals in descending order of intensity.

@wiredued - what do you mean by 'neither here nor there' ?

wiredued said:

If you do both in the same workout isn't the intensity of the workout going to hit some where inbetween L4 and L5 and not be a true VO2max sesion like a 5x5 at 113% to 120% would be?

If you do the L5 first (maybe with some L4 as a warm-up), they should be quality intervals and you should be hitting the power level you desire. As rmur noted, the quality of the L4 afterwards may not be so good. To me, it would depend on how many L5 repeats I did, sleep, etc. If I was exhausted after the L5, I'm might not be able to even get into L4. I dunno, I've never tried it. I've done L2 and L3 after L5 but never L4.

wiredued said:

If you do both in the same workout isn't the intensity of the workout going to hit some where inbetween L4 and L5 and not be a true VO2max sesion like a 5x5 at 113% to 120% would be?

Well, the intensity of the overall session might be between 4 and 5, but in this context I don't think 'overall' intensity is that important. If you're hitting the numbers you're supposed to, you're hitting them (and therefore stimulating the desired adaptation.) IOW, if you do 5x5 @ 120% FTP, you did it - doesn't really matter what you do next (except in terms of recovery.) And if you do 2x20 @ 95% FTP, it doesn't really matter what you did before (except in terms of recovery.)

if you aren't hitting your targets, that's a different story.