Lacing suggestions

email hidden said:

If that is the case, it doesn't matter which side the spokes are on.
Any "pull" spoke transfers torque to the rim, whichever side it is on.
So then it would make sense to have radial on the DS, not the NDS.
That way the shorter spoke and resulting angle helps make up for the
more inboard placement of the DS flange.

It would help a little... but think about what you've done to the NDS
spokes. Instead of 19mm and 36mm spacing, you'd get maybe 21mm and
36mm (just guessing). If you put 120kg in the DS, then the NDS would
be 70kg... and these are the only spokes transfering torque. Combine a
high torque load with the radial and side loads, and it won't take
much to make the pushing spokes go slack.

Quoted message said:

This is totally unscientific and anecdotal, but I just took my light
wheels (28h, 2x DS, radial NDS, narrow AC hub flanges) for a short
test, and did some purposefully agressive side to side sprints. It
seems the wheel only have the occasional flop when I lean the bike to
the right, and the rims feels like it flexes in toward the NDS.

You are very perceptive! This is the side that will buckle first,
since the NDS tension is lower and the spokes are at more of an angle.
You can demonstrate this easily by taking the wheel out and pressing
on the edges of the rim, while the axle rests on a solid surface. The
wheel will "boing" with lower force when you press towards the NDS.

Quoted message said:

The
flanges mean there is essentially no dish, so the only real difference
between each side is spoke length and thus angle. The rim does not
seem to flop toward the DS. That makes sense because the NDS is radial
and is in better position to resist.

There is dish. Probably ~19mm DS and 28mm NDS. This is the main
difference. Oddly, if the spacing (dish) was greater, you'd think the
lateral stability situation would get worse... but it actually
improves. A narrow spacing improves the tension balance, but this is
only an issue if you have spokes going slack from radial loads... for
all other loads it makes things worse. Narrow flanges reduce the
lateral stiffness a lot, since this goes up exponentially with bracing
angle, and they also reduce the load required to make the wheel
buckle.

Ron Ruff said:

email hidden said:

If that is the case, it doesn't matter which side the spokes are on.
Any "pull" spoke transfers torque to the rim, whichever side it is on.
So then it would make sense to have radial on the DS, not the NDS.
That way the shorter spoke and resulting angle helps make up for the
more inboard placement of the DS flange.

It would help a little... but think about what you've done to the NDS
spokes. Instead of 19mm and 36mm spacing, you'd get maybe 21mm and
36mm (just guessing). If you put 120kg in the DS, then the NDS would
be 70kg... and these are the only spokes transfering torque. Combine a
high torque load with the radial and side loads, and it won't take
much to make the pushing spokes go slack.

Quoted message said:

This is totally unscientific and anecdotal, but I just took my light
wheels (28h, 2x DS, radial NDS, narrow AC hub flanges) for a short
test, and did some purposefully agressive side to side sprints. It
seems the wheel only have the occasional flop when I lean the bike to
the right, and the rims feels like it flexes in toward the NDS.

You are very perceptive! This is the side that will buckle first,
since the NDS tension is lower and the spokes are at more of an angle.

it's not so much a tension thing as a spoke angle thing. and it's the
angle of the /drive side/ spokes that causes it. basically, the closer
the drive side spoke angle is to perpendicular, the more any applied
load stretches those spokes, hence the non-drive side can slack more easily.

Quoted message said:

You can demonstrate this easily by taking the wheel out and pressing
on the edges of the rim, while the axle rests on a solid surface. The
wheel will "boing" with lower force when you press towards the NDS.

indeed. see above.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The
flanges mean there is essentially no dish, so the only real difference
between each side is spoke length and thus angle. The rim does not
seem to flop toward the DS. That makes sense because the NDS is radial
and is in better position to resist.

There is dish. Probably ~19mm DS and 28mm NDS. This is the main
difference. Oddly, if the spacing (dish) was greater, you'd think the
lateral stability situation would get worse... but it actually
improves. A narrow spacing improves the tension balance, but this is
only an issue if you have spokes going slack from radial loads... for
all other loads it makes things worse. Narrow flanges reduce the
lateral stiffness a lot, since this goes up exponentially with bracing
angle, and they also reduce the load required to make the wheel
buckle.

Ron Ruff said:

On May 10, 6:36*am, "[email hidden]"

Quoted message said:

If that is the case, it doesn't matter which side the spokes are on.
Any "pull" spoke transfers torque to the rim, whichever side it is on.
So then it would make sense to have radial on the DS, not the NDS.
That way the shorter spoke and resulting angle helps make up for the
more inboard placement of the DS flange.

It would help a little... but think about what you've done to the NDS
spokes. Instead of 19mm and 36mm spacing, you'd get maybe 21mm and
36mm (just guessing). If you put 120kg in the DS, then the NDS would
be 70kg... and these are the only spokes transfering torque. Combine a
high torque load with the radial and side loads, and it won't take
much to make the pushing spokes go slack.

Quoted message said:

This is totally unscientific and anecdotal, but I just took my light
wheels (28h, 2x DS, radial NDS, narrow AC hub flanges) for a short
test, and did some purposefully agressive side to side sprints. It
seems the wheel only have the occasional flop when I lean the bike to
the right, and the rims feels like it flexes in toward the NDS.

You are very perceptive! This is the side that will buckle first,
since the NDS tension is lower and the spokes are at more of an angle.
You can demonstrate this easily by taking the wheel out and pressing
on the edges of the rim, while the axle rests on a solid surface. The
wheel will "boing" with lower force when you press towards the NDS.

Quoted message said:

The
flanges mean there is essentially no dish, so the only real difference
between each side is spoke length and thus angle. The rim does not
seem to flop toward the DS. That makes sense because the NDS is radial
and is in better position to resist.

There is dish. Probably ~19mm DS and 28mm NDS. This is the main
difference. Oddly, if the spacing (dish) was greater, you'd think the
lateral stability situation would get worse... but it actually
improves. A narrow spacing improves the tension balance, but this is
only an issue if you have spokes going slack from radial loads... for
all other loads it makes things worse. Narrow flanges reduce the
lateral stiffness a lot, since this goes up exponentially with bracing
angle, and they also reduce the load required to make the wheel
buckle.

I agree with Ron Ruff. Whatever way you finally decide to build them, make sure to stabilize the build and check spoke tensions often for at least the first 100 miles to make sure that everything stays where you put them... or at least gets back there.
I don't see any benefit for 3X on a 28 spoke wheel.
The wider set flanges and thicker hub mid section of the 7800 Dura Ace hubs make them stiffer in all dimensions.
Your 50 mm high rims also help stiffness in three ways:
the rims themselves due to the rim height
the spoke support angle is greater
the spoke length is shorter
Each contribution may be small, but it is measurable and in the direction of increased stiffness.

Ron Ruff said:

On May 10, 6:36 am, "[email hidden]"

Quoted message said:

If that is the case, it doesn't matter which side the spokes are on.
Any "pull" spoke transfers torque to the rim, whichever side it is on.
So then it would make sense to have radial on the DS, not the NDS.
That way the shorter spoke and resulting angle helps make up for the
more inboard placement of the DS flange.

It would help a little... but think about what you've done to the NDS
spokes. Instead of 19mm and 36mm spacing, you'd get maybe 21mm and
36mm (just guessing). If you put 120kg in the DS, then the NDS would
be 70kg... and these are the only spokes transfering torque. Combine a
high torque load with the radial and side loads, and it won't take
much to make the pushing spokes go slack.

I see. Radial DS would make the wheel more laterally stiff, but this
would come at the unacceptable expense of NDS push spokes going slack
under high torque loads and probably boinging the wheel.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This is totally unscientific and anecdotal, but I just took my light
wheels (28h, 2x DS, radial NDS, narrow AC hub flanges) for a short
test, and did some purposefully agressive side to side sprints. It
seems the wheel only have the occasional flop when I lean the bike to
the right, and the rims feels like it flexes in toward the NDS.

You are very perceptive! This is the side that will buckle first,
since the NDS tension is lower and the spokes are at more of an angle.
You can demonstrate this easily by taking the wheel out and pressing
on the edges of the rim, while the axle rests on a solid surface. The
wheel will "boing" with lower force when you press towards the NDS.

Quoted message said:

The
flanges mean there is essentially no dish, so the only real difference
between each side is spoke length and thus angle. The rim does not
seem to flop toward the DS. That makes sense because the NDS is radial
and is in better position to resist.

There is dish. Probably ~19mm DS and 28mm NDS. This is the main
difference. Oddly, if the spacing (dish) was greater, you'd think the
lateral stability situation would get worse... but it actually
improves. A narrow spacing improves the tension balance, but this is
only an issue if you have spokes going slack from radial loads... for
all other loads it makes things worse. Narrow flanges reduce the
lateral stiffness a lot, since this goes up exponentially with bracing
angle, and they also reduce the load required to make the wheel
buckle.

I guess that in general the wider flange spacing of the DA hubs (yet
smaller diameter) than the AC hubs (38mm, 22mm vs 31mm, 17mm) is what
is going to make the biggest difference. So radial NDS, 2x DS.

But what about my light wheels that buckle? Should I rebuild those 2x
both sides?

Joseph

Quoted message said:

Ron Ruff said:

On May 10, 6:36�am, "[email hidden]"

Quoted message said:

If that is the case, it doesn't matter which side the spokes are on.
Any "pull" spoke transfers torque to the rim, whichever side it is on.
So then it would make sense to have radial on the DS, not the NDS.
That way the shorter spoke and resulting angle helps make up for the
more inboard placement of the DS flange.

It would help a little... but think about what you've done to the NDS
spokes. Instead of 19mm and 36mm spacing, you'd get maybe 21mm and
36mm (just guessing). If you put 120kg in the DS, then the NDS would
be 70kg... and these are the only spokes transfering torque. Combine a
high torque load with the radial and side loads, and it won't take
much to make the pushing spokes go slack.

I see. Radial DS would make the wheel more laterally stiff,

um, well, it's not so much the radial configuration, it's more the
effective flange spacing.

Quoted message said:

but this
would come at the unacceptable expense of NDS push spokes going slack
under high torque loads and probably boinging the wheel.

again, not so much torque, more lateral loading.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This is totally unscientific and anecdotal, but I just took my light
wheels (28h, 2x DS, radial NDS, narrow AC hub flanges) for a short
test, and did some purposefully agressive side to side sprints. It
seems the wheel only have the occasional flop when I lean the bike to
the right, and the rims feels like it flexes in toward the NDS.

You are very perceptive! This is the side that will buckle first,
since the NDS tension is lower and the spokes are at more of an angle.
You can demonstrate this easily by taking the wheel out and pressing
on the edges of the rim, while the axle rests on a solid surface. The
wheel will "boing" with lower force when you press towards the NDS.

Quoted message said:

The
flanges mean there is essentially no dish, so the only real difference
between each side is spoke length and thus angle. The rim does not
seem to flop toward the DS. That makes sense because the NDS is radial
and is in better position to resist.

There is dish. Probably ~19mm DS and 28mm NDS. This is the main
difference. Oddly, if the spacing (dish) was greater, you'd think the
lateral stability situation would get worse... but it actually
improves. A narrow spacing improves the tension balance, but this is
only an issue if you have spokes going slack from radial loads... for
all other loads it makes things worse. Narrow flanges reduce the
lateral stiffness a lot, since this goes up exponentially with bracing
angle, and they also reduce the load required to make the wheel
buckle.

I guess that in general the wider flange spacing of the DA hubs (yet
smaller diameter) than the AC hubs (38mm, 22mm vs 31mm, 17mm) is what
is going to make the biggest difference. So radial NDS, 2x DS.

But what about my light wheels that buckle? Should I rebuild those 2x
both sides?

they have american classics? try rebuilding using a hub with a wider
flange spacing. shimano are the best for this.

email hidden said:

But what about my light wheels that buckle? Should I rebuild those 2x
both sides?

Are they laced heads-in now on the NDS? If not, try that. If they are
heads-in, then heavier spokes are the only thing that will help... but
I'd probably just sell them to a lighter rider before trying that.

Ron Ruff said:

On May 10, 9:28 am, "[email hidden]"

Quoted message said:

But what about my light wheels that buckle? Should I rebuild those 2x
both sides?

Are they laced heads-in now on the NDS? If not, try that. If they are
heads-in, then heavier spokes are the only thing that will help... but
I'd probably just sell them to a lighter rider before trying that.

All my lighter buddies are afraid of tubulars, and even more vain than
me! The old-school Mavic OR10 rims just look funny to them. Not too
mention the insanley high spoke count! They do however do a double
take when I hand them a wheel to feel it's (lack of) weight. And then
when they find out how much they cost (1/2 their heavier pre-builts)
they give me a blank stare.

They are heads out now. I'll flip them. If I go with beefier spokes,
should I replace them all, or just NDS?

Joseph

quote=''On May 10 said:

On May 10, 9:28*am, "[email hidden]"

Quoted message said:

But what about my light wheels that buckle? Should I rebuild those 2x
both sides?

Are they laced heads-in now on the NDS? If not, try that. If they are
heads-in, then heavier spokes are the only thing that will help... but
I'd probably just sell them to a lighter rider before trying that.

All my lighter buddies are afraid of tubulars, and even more vain than
me! The old-school Mavic OR10 rims just look funny to them. Not too
mention the insanley high spoke count! They do however do a double
take when I hand them a wheel to feel it's (lack of) weight. And then
when they find out how much they cost (1/2 their heavier pre-builts)
they give me a blank stare.

They are heads out now. I'll flip them. If I go with beefier spokes,
should I replace them all, or just NDS?

Joseph[/QUOTE]
Are you set on retaining those rims in combination with the narrow spaced hubs?
You can add ~20% stiffness with beefier spokes and heads in orientation of spokes, but at your weight and power I wonder if it is worth the effort and costs. Light weight wheels are fun to show off, but they don't make much difference to the overall weight of rider + bicycle ... especially as the rider weight contribution is over 80%.
I would move ahead with the wheels you are working on now so you can see what they ride like.
Ron Ruff's idea of selling your light weight rider who thinks tubies are better (or at least worth it). There are a small percentage of riders who have a positive bias for tubulars... and some like the old style Mavic OR rims too.

On May 10, 8:17 pm, daveornee <daveornee.397...@no-

mx.forums.cyclingforums.com said:

Quoted message said:

Ron Ruff said:

On May 10, 9:28*am, "[email hidden]"

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote:
> But what about my light wheels that buckle? Should I rebuild those

2x

Quoted message said:

> both sides?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Are they laced heads-in now on the NDS? If not, try that. If they

are

Quoted message said:

heads-in, then heavier spokes are the only thing that will help...

but

Quoted message said:

I'd probably just sell them to a lighter rider before trying that.

Quoted message said:

All my lighter buddies are afraid of tubulars, and even more vain than
me! The old-school Mavic OR10 rims just look funny to them. Not too
mention the insanley high spoke count! They do however do a double
take when I hand them a wheel to feel it's (lack of) weight. And then
when they find out how much they cost (1/2 their heavier pre-builts)
they give me a blank stare.

Quoted message said:

They are heads out now. I'll flip them. If I go with beefier spokes,
should I replace them all, or just NDS?

Quoted message said:

Joseph

Are you set on retaining those rims in combination with the narrow
spaced hubs?
You can add ~20% stiffness with beefier spokes and heads in orientation
of spokes, but at your weight and power I wonder if it is worth the
effort and costs.   Light weight wheels are fun to show off, but they
don't make much difference to the overall weight of rider + bicycle ...
especially as the rider weight contribution is over 80%.
I would move ahead with the wheels you are working on now so you can
see what they ride like.
Ron Ruff's idea of selling your light weight rider who thinks tubies
are better (or at least worth it).    There are a small percentage of
riders who have a positive bias for tubulars... and some like the old
style Mavic OR rims too.

--
daveornee

I'm not set on keeping them, but nobody I know is interested in
buying, even for cheap. Fixing them is a low priority. I'll try
flipping the spokes first (free) and maybe some heavier spokes if I
happen across any suitable. If these new aero wheels (Gigantex/Dura
Ace) are nice, I may buy some more of those rims and use the AC hubs
and those I could sell. Then I'll keep the OR10's for some future
unknown project.

Joseph

email hidden said:

They are heads out now. I'll flip them. If I go with beefier spokes,
should I replace them all, or just NDS?

Just flipping them might help enough. If you replace the spokes with
heavier ones, I'd do them all. What size do you have now? If they are
2.0/1.8, then they are already as heavy as you'd want to go.

[email hidden said:

"]On May 10, 8:17*pm, daveornee <daveornee.397...@no-

mx.forums.cyclingforums.com said:

Quoted message said:

Ron Ruff said:

On May 10, 9:28*am, "[email hidden]"

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote:
> But what about my light wheels that buckle? Should I rebuild those

2x

Quoted message said:

> both sides?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Are they laced heads-in now on the NDS? If not, try that. If they

are

Quoted message said:

heads-in, then heavier spokes are the only thing that will help...

but

Quoted message said:

I'd probably just sell them to a lighter rider before trying that.

Quoted message said:

All my lighter buddies are afraid of tubulars, and even more vain than
me! The old-school Mavic OR10 rims just look funny to them. Not too
mention the insanley high spoke count! They do however do a double
take when I hand them a wheel to feel it's (lack of) weight. And then
when they find out how much they cost (1/2 their heavier pre-builts)
they give me a blank stare.

Quoted message said:

They are heads out now. I'll flip them. If I go with beefier spokes,
should I replace them all, or just NDS?

Quoted message said:

Joseph

Are you set on retaining those rims in combination with the narrow
spaced hubs?
You can add ~20% stiffness with beefier spokes and heads in orientation
of spokes, but at your weight and power I wonder if it is worth the
effort and costs. * Light weight wheels are fun to show off, but they
don't make much difference to the overall weight of rider + bicycle ...
especially as the rider weight contribution is over 80%.
I would move ahead with the wheels you are working on now so you can
see what they ride like.
Ron Ruff's idea of selling your light weight rider who thinks tubies
are better (or at least worth it). * *There are a small percentage of
riders who have a positive bias for tubulars... and some like the old
style Mavic OR rims too.

--
daveornee

I'm not set on keeping them, but nobody I know is interested in
buying, even for cheap. Fixing them is a low priority. I'll try
flipping the spokes first (free) and maybe some heavier spokes if I
happen across any suitable. If these new aero wheels (Gigantex/Dura
Ace) are nice, I may buy some more of those rims and use the AC hubs
and those I could sell. Then I'll keep the OR10's for some future
unknown project.

Joseph

Precision adjusted cup & cone bearings like those found on Shimano and pre 2007 Campy along with a good steel QR properly adjusted will also help keep the wheel in better alignmentunder side loads. The frame and fork also have contributions. Tension balance in the spokes along with precision truing will give the the best possible chance of minimizing brake pad rubbing. The large center sections in current hubs from Shimano and Campagnolo also make a small but measurable contribution to lateral stiffness.
I don't know how you have your pads adjusted, but I ride with some very heavy riders who adjust pads far from the rim to avoid contact. They don't have them so far out the bottoming levers when braking happens though.

email hidden said:

On May 9, 10:19 pm, "[email hidden]"

Quoted message said:

http://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/hikingbikinglacing.htm
Suggested lacing pattern to keep shoeslaces away from the chain.

Getting a shoelace tangled in the pedal spindle of a fixed gear bike
is no fun!

I think I'll try that pattern.

Obviously, what we need now is for some manufacturer
to bring out off-center-drilled shoes.

Ben

On May 11, 7:02 am, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On May 9, 1:44 pm, "[email hidden]"

Quoted message said:

On May 9, 10:19 pm, "[email hidden]"

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

http://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/hikingbikinglacing.htm
Suggested lacing pattern to keep shoeslaces away from the chain.

Quoted message said:

Getting a shoelace tangled in the pedal spindle of a fixed gear bike
is no fun!

Quoted message said:

I think I'll try that pattern.

Obviously, what we need now is for some manufacturer
to bring out off-center-drilled shoes.

Ben

I've seen soccer shoes like that. I guess it gives a nice flat area on
the top.

Joseph

On May 11, 1:58 am, daveornee <daveornee.397...@no-

mx.forums.cyclingforums.com said:

Quoted message said:

On May 10, 8:17*pm, daveornee <daveornee.397...@no-

mx.forums.cyclingforums.com said:

[email hidden] Wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> On May 10, 7:29*pm, Ron Ruff <[email hidden]> wrote:
> > On May 10, 9:28*am, "[email hidden]"

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > <[email hidden]> wrote:
> > > But what about my light wheels that buckle? Should I rebuild

those

Quoted message said:

> 2x
> > > both sides?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > Are they laced heads-in now on the NDS? If not, try that. If

they

Quoted message said:

> are
> > heads-in, then heavier spokes are the only thing that will

help...

Quoted message said:

> but
> > I'd probably just sell them to a lighter rider before trying

that.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> All my lighter buddies are afraid of tubulars, and even more vain

than

Quoted message said:

> me! The old-school Mavic OR10 rims just look funny to them. Not

too

Quoted message said:

> mention the insanley high spoke count! They do however do a double
> take when I hand them a wheel to feel it's (lack of) weight. And

then

Quoted message said:

> when they find out how much they cost (1/2 their heavier

pre-builts)

Quoted message said:

> they give me a blank stare.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> They are heads out now. I'll flip them. If I go with beefier

spokes,

Quoted message said:

> should I replace them all, or just NDS?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Joseph

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Are you set on retaining those rims in combination with the narrow
spaced hubs?
You can add ~20% stiffness with beefier spokes and heads in

orientation

Quoted message said:

of spokes, but at your weight and power I wonder if it is worth the
effort and costs. * Light weight wheels are fun to show off, but

they

Quoted message said:

don't make much difference to the overall weight of rider + bicycle

...

Quoted message said:

especially as the rider weight contribution is over 80%.
I would move ahead with the wheels you are working on now so you can
see what they ride like.
Ron Ruff's idea of selling your light weight rider who thinks tubies
are better (or at least worth it). * *There are a small percentage

of

Quoted message said:

riders who have a positive bias for tubulars... and some like the

old

Quoted message said:

style Mavic OR rims too.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

--
daveornee

Quoted message said:

I'm not set on keeping them, but nobody I know is interested in
buying, even for cheap. Fixing them is a low priority. I'll try
flipping the spokes first (free) and maybe some heavier spokes if I
happen across any suitable. If these new aero wheels (Gigantex/Dura
Ace) are nice, I may buy some more of those rims and use the AC hubs
and those I could sell. Then I'll keep the OR10's for some future
unknown project.

Quoted message said:

Joseph

Precision adjusted cup & cone bearings like those found on Shimano and
pre 2007 Campy along with a good steel QR properly adjusted will also
help keep the wheel in better alignmentunder side loads.  The frame and
fork also have contributions.  Tension balance in the spokes along with
precision truing will give the the best possible chance of minimizing
brake pad rubbing.  The large center sections in current hubs from
Shimano and Campagnolo also make a small but measurable contribution to
lateral stiffness.
I don't know how you have your pads adjusted, but I ride with some very
heavy riders who adjust pads far from the rim to avoid contact.  They
don't have them so far out the bottoming levers when braking happens
though.

--
daveornee

My Ultegra/DT-Competition/Deep-V 28/32 wheels do not flex enough to
rub the pads. I have the brakes adjusted to contact at about half
lever travel. That way they don't bottom out, and I have good leverage
and wear room. When I fit the OR10's I need to open the calipers a
bit.

Joseph

Ron Ruff said:

On May 10, 11:39 am, "[email hidden]"

Quoted message said:

They are heads out now. I'll flip them. If I go with beefier spokes,
should I replace them all, or just NDS?

Just flipping them might help enough. If you replace the spokes with
heavier ones, I'd do them all. What size do you have now? If they are
2.0/1.8, then they are already as heavy as you'd want to go.

They are 2.0/1.5.

Joseph