LANDIS Theory

chester wrote:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

I don't know the biology of the processing - if this is even possible,
but it sure makes a lot of sense to me.

Except Landis got caught because of low epitestosterone, not high
testosterone. It was the ratio, not the level. Then an isotope test
sealed the deal.

--
Bill Asher

William Asher said:

chester wrote:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

I don't know the biology of the processing - if this is even possible,
but it sure makes a lot of sense to me.

Except Landis got caught because of low epitestosterone, not high
testosterone. It was the ratio, not the level. Then an isotope test
sealed the deal.

dumbass,

that scenario was already floated and it's plausible.

of course his ratio was high because his epitestosterone was too low,
but that is the observed effect of topping up with exogenous
testosterone when natural production is supressed by hard training.

if landis was topping up with T to the previously allowed 11:1 ratio
(or during training -- both kessler and sinkewitz were nabbed with
high T at training camps) and stashed away some blood and reinjected
it during the tour after the ratio was dropped to 4:1 it would explain
his comeback ride on stage 17 and the high T:E (which shouldn't have
that effect alone).

chester said:

This vino "thing" got me to thinking about Floyd. Vino's ride was very
reminiscent of Landis's ride last year-in that they each truly THUMPED
the competition. And now it comes out that Vino "may have been" blood
doping the night before the ride.

Well, it made me think that perhaps (probably?) Landis juiced himself up
the night before "The Ride".

So dig on this.

Landis gave himself some of his own blood, the night before the
competition. This blood was taken well in advance, obviously. At the
time the blood was drawn, he was on testosterone for whatever-long term
training recovery etc. Not thinking, he drew blood from himself. The
blood had nice high levels of exo-testosterone. Viola. He tests positive
and "has no idea" where it came from.

It explains why it was there. The blood would have been drawn during
training times - a time he would have used it for long term recovery.
Otherwise there is no reason for him to have taken it during the tour.
It also (could?) explain why he didn't test positive for it during the
other stages he was tested.

I don't know the biology of the processing - if this is even possible,
but it sure makes a lot of sense to me.

Exactly how Ben Johnson messed up

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

William Asher said:

chester wrote:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

I don't know the biology of the processing - if this is even possible,
but it sure makes a lot of sense to me.

Except Landis got caught because of low epitestosterone, not high
testosterone. It was the ratio, not the level. Then an isotope test
sealed the deal.

that scenario was already floated and it's plausible.

of course his ratio was high because his epitestosterone was too low,
but that is the observed effect of topping up with exogenous
testosterone when natural production is supressed by hard training.

if landis was topping up with T to the previously allowed 11:1 ratio
(or during training -- both kessler and sinkewitz were nabbed with
high T at training camps) and stashed away some blood and reinjected
it during the tour after the ratio was dropped to 4:1 it would explain
his comeback ride on stage 17 and the high T:E (which shouldn't have
that effect alone).

Except of course that the "previous allowed" ratio was 6:1 which is natually
occurring in athletes all the time.

And of course Floyd's FIRST sample A test showed 4.5 and the second sample A
test showed 11:1 demonstrating contamination beyond doubt.

On Jul 24, 7:22 pm, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

dumbass,

that scenario was already floated and it's plausible.

of course his ratio was high because his epitestosterone was too low,
but that is the observed effect of topping up with exogenous
testosterone when natural production is supressed by hard training.

if landis was topping up with T to the previously allowed 11:1 ratio
(or during training -- both kessler and sinkewitz were nabbed with
high T at training camps) and stashed away some blood and reinjected
it during the tour after the ratio was dropped to 4:1 it would explain
his comeback ride on stage 17 and the high T:E (which shouldn't have
that effect alone).

Dumbass,

We already went over this theory and it seems implausible
because he'd either have to fill up with a very large
volume of blood, or the blood he was topping up with
would have to have a ridiculously high testosterone
concentration. For ex, to triple his T level he'd
have to take on 10% of blood volume with 20x the usual
level, both of which seem excessive even for an ex-MTBer.

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/msg/b0943decd1b05549

Ben
Dilute! Dilute! OK!

On Jul 25, 5:13 am, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Dumbass,

We already went over this theory and it seems implausible
because he'd either have to fill up with a very large
volume of blood, or the blood he was topping up with
would have to have a ridiculously high testosterone
concentration. For ex, to triple his T level he'd
have to take on 10% of blood volume with 20x the usual
level, both of which seem excessive even for an ex-MTBer.

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/msg/b0943decd1b05549

Ben
Dilute! Dilute! OK!

I don't think it's as simple as that. If the testosterone was
introduced via a blood transfusion, then the recipient's body is going
to try to get rid of all of it as quickly as possible. They test the
concentration of T and E metabolites in the urine, not the circulating
levels in the body.

Jeff

Jeff Jones said:

I don't think it's as simple as that. If the testosterone was
introduced via a blood transfusion, then the recipient's body is going
to try to get rid of all of it as quickly as possible. They test the
concentration of T and E metabolites in the urine, not the circulating
levels in the body.

How would that affect the T/E ratio given the constraint that T wasn't
elevated?

One fundamental thing that we are overlooking is that when you have a
very bad day, you are actually expending a lot less energy than
everyone else in the tour. The next day you are going to have a ton
more energy than eveyone else. It actually makes sense to have a very
bad day so you can be rested to have an extraordinary day and maybe
win the race. For example, on a monday you might feel really crappy
and not get anything accomplished. That depressed day is actually a
way of saving energy. at least that is how i am. of course, landis is
a doper. these are guys who are super desperate to win at all cost. b-
type personalities need not apply.

Quoted message said:

Jeff Jones said:

I don't think it's as simple as that. If the testosterone was
introduced via a blood transfusion, then the recipient's body is going
to try to get rid of all of it as quickly as possible. They test the
concentration of T and E metabolites in the urine, not the circulating
levels in the body.

How would that affect the T/E ratio given the constraint that T wasn't
elevated?

T might have been elevated from a much lower level.

All speculation, of course.

Jeff

Quoted message said:

One fundamental thing that we are overlooking is that when you have a
very bad day, you are actually expending a lot less energy than
everyone else in the tour. The next day you are going to have a ton
more energy than eveyone else. It actually makes sense to have a very
bad day so you can be rested to have an extraordinary day and maybe
win the race. For example, on a monday you might feel really crappy
and not get anything accomplished. That depressed day is actually a
way of saving energy. at least that is how i am. of course, landis is
a doper. these are guys who are super desperate to win at all cost. b-
type personalities need not apply.

Bipolar racing...?

R

Jeff Jones said:

Quoted message said:

Jeff Jones said:

I don't think it's as simple as that. If the testosterone was
introduced via a blood transfusion, then the recipient's body is going
to try to get rid of all of it as quickly as possible. They test the
concentration of T and E metabolites in the urine, not the circulating
levels in the body.

How would that affect the T/E ratio given the constraint that T wasn't
elevated?

T might have been elevated from a much lower level.

All speculation, of course.

It is, of course. Still, Low E and wildly inconsistent results seems like the
exact thing one would expect from a soured sample. I don't know how they get
around that one.

Ron

in message <[email hidden]>,

(' ') said:

One fundamental thing that we are overlooking is that when you have a
very bad day, you are actually expending a lot less energy than
everyone else in the tour.

Not convinced of this - from my own experience - at all. Once you get
dropped out of the pack and are working on your own, you have to work
harder. Further more if you lose a chunk of time early in the stage and
are then left out on your own struggling to escape Hors Delai, you may
actually have to ride as hard as the leaders without any of the help. Mind
you, if you are in (or can get into) the autobus, you'll have riders
around you to share the work and then you may have a relatively easy time.

But I don't recall Vino being in the autobus on his bad day (although he
did have a couple of domestiques with him). Landis spent his bad day in
the peloton, of course, so your theory could be valid there.

Simon - never has extraordinary days. Well, not that kind.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; Generally Not Used
;; Except by Middle Aged Computer Scientists

On 24/7/07 8:33 PM, in article
[email hidden], "[email hidden]"

Quoted message said:

chester said:

This vino "thing" got me to thinking about Floyd. Vino's ride was very
reminiscent of Landis's ride last year-in that they each truly THUMPED
the competition. And now it comes out that Vino "may have been" blood
doping the night before the ride.

Well, it made me think that perhaps (probably?) Landis juiced himself up
the night before "The Ride".

So dig on this.

Landis gave himself some of his own blood, the night before the
competition. This blood was taken well in advance, obviously. At the
time the blood was drawn, he was on testosterone for whatever-long term
training recovery etc. Not thinking, he drew blood from himself. The
blood had nice high levels of exo-testosterone. Viola. He tests positive
and "has no idea" where it came from.

It explains why it was there. The blood would have been drawn during
training times - a time he would have used it for long term recovery.
Otherwise there is no reason for him to have taken it during the tour.
It also (could?) explain why he didn't test positive for it during the
other stages he was tested.

I don't know the biology of the processing - if this is even possible,
but it sure makes a lot of sense to me.

Exactly how Ben Johnson messed up

Why would someone running a race of less than 10 sec blood dope?

Jeff Jones said:

On Jul 25, 5:13 am, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Dumbass,

Quoted message said:

We already went over this theory and it seems implausible
because he'd either have to fill up with a very large
volume of blood, or the blood he was topping up with
would have to have a ridiculously high testosterone
concentration. For ex, to triple his T level he'd
have to take on 10% of blood volume with 20x the usual
level, both of which seem excessive even for an ex-MTBer.

Quoted message said:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/msg/b0943decd1b05549

Quoted message said:

Ben
Dilute! Dilute! OK!

I don't think it's as simple as that. If the testosterone was
introduced via a blood transfusion, then the recipient's body is going
to try to get rid of all of it as quickly as possible. They test the
concentration of T and E metabolites in the urine, not the circulating
levels in the body.

It is possible that I have my head up my ass (Well,
on this subject; it's surely true on _something_).
I don't know how quickly the introduced testosterone
would be metabolized and excreted - it's on the scale
of a day or two, right? But would the excess T be
metabolized quickly just because it was over Floyd's
current levels, or would it have to be actually
unusually high?

That is, it's hard to make a prediction
without knowing what controls the response -
whether the body is trying to maintain its previous
equilibrium, or just keep hormone levels within some
normal range. I would naively expect that the rates
of metabolizing T and E would be proportional to their
concentrations, thus if T suddenly doubled and E was
unaffected, the rate of T-metabolite production would
double. This would rapidly use up the introduced T,
but it's still difficult to see how to triple the rate.

Ben

Sticky Wicket said:

On 24/7/07 8:33 PM, in article
[email hidden], "[email hidden]"

Quoted message said:

chester said:

This vino "thing" got me to thinking about Floyd. Vino's ride was very
reminiscent of Landis's ride last year-in that they each truly THUMPED
the competition. And now it comes out that Vino "may have been" blood
doping the night before the ride.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Well, it made me think that perhaps (probably?) Landis juiced himself up
the night before "The Ride".

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So dig on this.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Landis gave himself some of his own blood, the night before the
competition. This blood was taken well in advance, obviously. At the
time the blood was drawn, he was on testosterone for whatever-long term
training recovery etc. Not thinking, he drew blood from himself. The
blood had nice high levels of exo-testosterone. Viola. He tests positive
and "has no idea" where it came from.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It explains why it was there. The blood would have been drawn during
training times - a time he would have used it for long term recovery.
Otherwise there is no reason for him to have taken it during the tour.
It also (could?) explain why he didn't test positive for it during the
other stages he was tested.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I don't know the biology of the processing - if this is even possible,
but it sure makes a lot of sense to me.

Quoted message said:

Exactly how Ben Johnson messed up

Why would someone running a race of less than 10 sec blood dope?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

There is still a benefit. But I agree it does seem strange. It is his
explanation

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/msg/b0943decd1b05549

Ben
Dilute! Dilute! OK!

Dr Bronner? Is that you?