Landis verdict

"Chris Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hmm... shock, horror! The French hate American cyclists.

How? The ban was upheld by the *Amercian* Arbitration Association, not the
French.

See

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/sep07/sep21news

"The long awaited decision is in, and Floyd Landis has lost his appeal to
the American Arbitration Association to overturn the sanction for his
positive drug test from the 2006 Tour de France. The three member
arbitration panel, led by president Patrice Brunet along with Christopher
Campbell and Richard McLaren, was split 2-1 in the guilty verdict, with
Campbell dissenting."

and

"Campbell's dissenting opinion was expected, as he was chosen as an
arbitrator by Landis' team and was the dissenting opinion in the Tyler
Hamilton case, and is normally more sympathetic to the athlete's case."

mb said:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/other_sports/cycling/6686943.stm

Ban upheld.

A great result which bodes well for the future of cycling.

It is no surprise that the panel did not place any weight on the T/E
ratio test as this test it only indicative in any case. It is the IRMS
tests which are definitive, and no way could all 7 of Landis's
positive IRMS test results be false positives!

At first Landis seemed very willing for his 'B' samples to be tested,
obviously thinking that the T/E ratio test would simply be repeated,
which as I said isn't a definitive test. Then the UCI called his bluff
and demanded IRMS tests be done instead, which he couldn't explain
away by claiming the positive result was due to having a naturally
unnatural level of testosterone in his body, having drunk a Jack
Daniels and whatever other co ck-and-bull story he could cook up.

Any weakness in the T/E ratio testing procedure is about a good a
reason to find him innocent as someone being pulled over for speeding,
being found to be many times over the drink drive limit, and then
claiming they should be let off the drink-drive charge because it is
found that the police can't prove that the speed gun used to pull them
over had been calibrated recently!

All the evidence shows that Landis was dosing on testosterone in order
to counter the depletion of this hormone as the race progressed and so
aid his recovery ALL THE WAY THOUGH THE RACE, not just on the day of
his quite literally unbelievable comeback. His 'medical program' was
obviously aimed at keeping his T/E limits within the acceptable
boundaries, but then they screwed up and got caught.

Only downside is that a 2 year ban seems to be far too small for the
way this unprincipled, manipulative doper has dragged the name of
cycling through the mud for so long, let alone the way he has done
everything possible in his power to make it all but impossible for
dopers who have come up positive in even multiple separate tests to be
actually held to be guilty of doping.

Download the verdict here:

http://www.velonews.com/media/LandisDecision.pdf

------------------------------------

"Clinger told me that while he was racing in 2002 on the United States
Postal Service Pro Cycling Team he used HGH, testosterone and EPO
along with Floyd Landis. David told me, and I quote, 'Landis used more
HGH than anyone he had ever witnessed before. He would use entire
vials of HGH and he is crazy.' "

http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports/20070708-9999-lz1s8landis.html

On Sep 20, 10:43 pm, "wafflycat" <w*a*ff£y£cat*@£btco*nn£ect.com>

Quoted message said:

"Chris Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hmm... shock, horror! The French hate American cyclists.

How? The ban was upheld by the *Amercian* Arbitration Association, not the
French.

Quite so, but that won't stop people from continuing to trot out their
idiotic conspiracy theories, whether due to blind Nationalism, anti-
French xenophobia and sheer tin-foil hat wearing lunacy!

Howard said:

On Sep 20, 10:43 pm, "wafflycat" <w*a*ff£y£cat*@£btco*nn£ect.com>

Quoted message said:

"Chris Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hmm... shock, horror! The French hate American cyclists.

How? The ban was upheld by the *Amercian* Arbitration Association, not the
French.

Quite so, but that won't stop people from continuing to trot out their
idiotic conspiracy theories, whether due to blind Nationalism, anti-
French xenophobia and sheer tin-foil hat wearing lunacy!

The worst thing about Landis being found guilty was the risk that you
would pop up again! :-(

In article <[email hidden]>, w*a*ff£y£cat*@
£btco*nn£ect.com says...

Quoted message said:

"The long awaited decision is in, and Floyd Landis has lost his appeal to
the American Arbitration Association to overturn the sanction for his
positive drug test from the 2006 Tour de France. The three member
arbitration panel, led by president Patrice Brunet along with Christopher
Campbell and Richard McLaren, was split 2-1 in the guilty verdict, with
Campbell dissenting."

and

"Campbell's dissenting opinion was expected, as he was chosen as an
arbitrator by Landis' team and was the dissenting opinion in the Tyler
Hamilton case, and is normally more sympathetic to the athlete's case."

Interesting that the panel dismissed the A tests as unreliable but then
convicted him on the results of the subsequent B tests carried out under
disputed conditions by the same lab techs.

--
Tony

" I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
Bertrand Russell

In article <[email hidden]>, wafflycat
w*a*ff£y£cat*@£btco*nn£ect.com says...

Quoted message said:

"Chris Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hmm... shock, horror! The French hate American cyclists.

How? The ban was upheld by the *Amercian* Arbitration Association, not the
French.

Patrice Brunet is such an Amercian name. ;-)

mb said:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/other_sports/cycling/6686943.stm

Ban upheld. The whole case stinks.

--
Mike
Van Tuyl titanium Dura ace 10
Fausto Coppi aluminium Ultegra 10
Raleigh Record sprint mongrel
Huissoon project bike (in bits, natch)

The only thing that stinks is how Fraud Landis excused and bullshitted his way for this long.

On Sep 20, 4:43 pm, "wafflycat" <w*a*ff£y£cat*@£btco*nn£ect.com>

Quoted message said:

"Chris Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hmm... shock, horror! The French hate American cyclists.

How? The ban was upheld by the *Amercian* Arbitration Association, not the
French.

See

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/sep07/sep21news

"The long awaited decision is in, and Floyd Landis has lost his appeal to
the American Arbitration Association to overturn the sanction for his
positive drug test from the 2006 Tour de France. The three member
arbitration panel, led by president Patrice Brunet along with Christopher
Campbell and Richard McLaren, was split 2-1 in the guilty verdict, with
Campbell dissenting."

and

"Campbell's dissenting opinion was expected, as he was chosen as an
arbitrator by Landis' team and was the dissenting opinion in the Tyler
Hamilton case, and is normally more sympathetic to the athlete's case."

Go read the decisions at:
http://www.usantidoping.org

Both the dissenting opinion, and the overall are brutal. If you can
read through both and honestly say the system isn't flat out broken
then I'm shocked.
Landis may very well have been guilty, but that doesn't mean that a
totally screwed up lab aand system is going to provide justice.
IMO it's more important for those who have the power over peoples
lives, careers, and right to work to be honest and meet minimum EU
standards than to get some riders for doing something, of which the
only real victims are the other riders.
Fix the system. Make it credible, then go after the dopers. After the
riders have a real union and some form of protection, which they
don't, and I'm not a fan of the Guardian either, but some things are
so egregious that it takes people power to get basic protections.
Bill C

"Howard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
On Sep 20, 10:43 pm, "wafflycat" <w*a*ff£y£cat*@£btco*nn£ect.com>

Quoted message said:

"Chris Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hmm... shock, horror! The French hate American cyclists.

How? The ban was upheld by the *Amercian* Arbitration Association, not the
French.

Quite so, but that won't stop people from continuing to trot out their
idiotic conspiracy theories, whether due to blind Nationalism, anti-
French xenophobia and sheer tin-foil hat wearing lunacy!
===============================================================

SNIP <sheer tin-foil hat wearing lunacy! >

That would be the american contingent i presume ....lol

L H O.

Drop bar Moulton 4 sp
Drop bar Moulton 21 speed

"Bill C" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
On Sep 20, 4:43 pm, "wafflycat" <w*a*ff£y£cat*@£btco*nn£ect.com>

Quoted message said:

"Chris Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hmm... shock, horror! The French hate American cyclists.

How? The ban was upheld by the *Amercian* Arbitration Association, not the
French.

See

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/sep07/sep21news

"The long awaited decision is in, and Floyd Landis has lost his appeal to
the American Arbitration Association to overturn the sanction for his
positive drug test from the 2006 Tour de France. The three member
arbitration panel, led by president Patrice Brunet along with Christopher
Campbell and Richard McLaren, was split 2-1 in the guilty verdict, with
Campbell dissenting."

and

"Campbell's dissenting opinion was expected, as he was chosen as an
arbitrator by Landis' team and was the dissenting opinion in the Tyler
Hamilton case, and is normally more sympathetic to the athlete's case."

Go read the decisions at:
http://www.usantidoping.org

Both the dissenting opinion, and the overall are brutal. If you can
read through both and honestly say the system isn't flat out broken
then I'm shocked.
Landis may very well have been guilty, but that doesn't mean that a
totally screwed up lab aand system is going to provide justice.
IMO it's more important for those who have the power over peoples
lives, careers, and right to work to be honest and meet minimum EU
standards than to get some riders for doing something, of which the
only real victims are the other riders.
Fix the system. Make it credible, then go after the dopers. After the
riders have a real union and some form of protection, which they
don't, and I'm not a fan of the Guardian either, but some things are
so egregious that it takes people power to get basic protections.
Bill C
===========================================================
I don't know if its just a token jesture or a real attempt to clean up a
team from within but T-Mobiles manager has imposed some real draconian
measures to keep the team clean from within .
Apparently he does not trust the testing system and as riders samples tested
independently ... but that could mean independently in a lab that will ...
well lets just say wont get a positive ?????

L H O

Tony Raven said:

Interesting that the panel dismissed the A tests as unreliable but then
convicted him on the results of the subsequent B tests carried out under
disputed conditions by the same lab techs.

It is no surprise that the panel did not place any weight on the T/E
ratio test as this test it only indicative in any case. It is the IRMS
tests which are definitive, and no way could all 7 of Landis's
positive IRMS test results be false positives!

Any weakness in the T/E ratio testing procedure is about a good a
reason to find him innocent as someone being pulled over for speeding,
being found to be many times over the drink drive limit, and then
claiming they should be let off the drink-drive charge because it is
found that the police can't prove that the speed gun used to pull them
over had been calibrated recently!

It's also little surprise that it was a 2:1 verdict. The guy who sided
with Landis did exactly the same in the hearing of Hamilton. (Or
should that be 'the Hamiltons'😉!

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

It is no surprise that the panel did not place any weight on the T/E
ratio test as this test it only indicative in any case. It is the IRMS
tests which are definitive, and no way could all 7 of Landis's
positive IRMS test results be false positives!

They were anything but definitive according to the expert witnesses,
including the person who designed the IRMS equipment, but the two
arbitrators decided to believe the lab member who said that despite all
the problems they could eyeball the results and tell they were positive
against these experts who said you could tell nothing from them because
the measurement procedures were so screwed up. Even the two arbitrators
admitted problems with these measurements.

Quoted message said:

Any weakness in the T/E ratio testing procedure is about a good a
reason to find him innocent as someone being pulled over for speeding,
being found to be many times over the drink drive limit, and then
claiming they should be let off the drink-drive charge because it is
found that the police can't prove that the speed gun used to pull them
over had been calibrated recently!

That happens to be the way the system works. Calibration requirements
would not be there to keep someone in a job but because the equipment
needs calibration to keep it within the required accuracy.

Quoted message said:

It's also little surprise that it was a 2:1 verdict. The guy who sided
with Landis did exactly the same in the hearing of Hamilton. (Or
should that be 'the Hamiltons'😉!

And the other two have a reputation the other way including insisting
the retests were done by the same lab, not the US lab, on the same two
to one vote. If you think the results are good based on good lab work
read the commentary from the website, Environmental Chemistry which is
for experts whose dayjob is to make measurements with such equipment day
in day out.
http://blog.environmentalchemistry.com/2007/09/floyd-landis-vs-usada-
verdict-is-in.html

--
Tony

" I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
Bertrand Russell

Chris Smith said:

mb said:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/other_sports/cycling/6686943.stm

Ban upheld. The whole case stinks.

Hmm... shock, horror! The French hate American cyclists.

Pretty much up there with "Jews hate Arabs" and "Protestants hate
Catholics". The world carries on turning...

Oh, sorry. I didn't realise I was supposed to hate Catholics. Thanks for
that tip. Would you like to suggest any individuals?

Cheers,
Luke

--
Red Rose Ramblings, the diary of an Essex boy in
exile in Lancashire <http://www.shrimper.org.uk>

mitosis said:

mb said:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/other_sports/cycling/6686943.stm

Ban upheld. The whole case stinks.

Quoted message said:

The only thing that stinks is how Fraud Landis excused and bullshitted
his way for this long.

Pat McQuaid said, "He got a highly qualified legal team who tried to
baffle everybody with science and public relations, and in the end the
facts stood up."

Sorry, but if the people in question are baffled by science then they
are entirely the wrong people to sit in judgment on Landis. This is one
reason why I remain unconvinced: my understanding of the relevant
science is too weak yet my underestanding of principles of justice is
too strong.

Cheers,
Luke

--
Red Rose Ramblings, the diary of an Essex boy in
exile in Lancashire <http://www.shrimper.org.uk>

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

However, the defence for the lab in justifying their results is that
the deviations from the protocol had no effect on whether an AAF was
found or not. This has to be show with a burden of proof above the
balance of probabilities and below that of beyond reasonable doubt.
The two areas in question (operation of the machine with a vacuum
pressure slightly above the specified threshold (0.0000052 vs
0.0000050), and manual peak calling) were both shown to not have any
impact on whether an AAF would have been returned or not.

They were not so shown. It was claimed but the man who designed and
built the machine they used said the way they did it you could not
anything reliable from the results. They chose to ignore his evidence -
indeed they said it was "unsound and without any reasonable scientific
basis" preferring instead to believe a lab employee who said despite all
their mistakes they could eyeball it as a positive result. I know which
of those two I believe.

--
Tony

" I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
Bertrand Russell

in message <[email hidden]>, Tony Raven

(') said:

In article <[email hidden]>, w*a*ff£y£cat*@
£btco*nn£ect.com says...

Quoted message said:

"The long awaited decision is in, and Floyd Landis has lost his appeal
to the American Arbitration Association to overturn the sanction for his
positive drug test from the 2006 Tour de France. The three member
arbitration panel, led by president Patrice Brunet along with
Christopher Campbell and Richard McLaren, was split 2-1 in the guilty
verdict, with Campbell dissenting."

and

"Campbell's dissenting opinion was expected, as he was chosen as an
arbitrator by Landis' team and was the dissenting opinion in the Tyler
Hamilton case, and is normally more sympathetic to the athlete's case."

Interesting that the panel dismissed the A tests as unreliable but then
convicted him on the results of the subsequent B tests carried out under
disputed conditions by the same lab techs.

Me, I dunno.

What can't be disputed is this whole process hasn't done cycling any good.
I wouldn't convict a dog on the evidence of that lab, because as Tony says
its working practices and procedures were clearly shockingly lax, when you
consider that peoples' careers and reputations are at stake.

But. But.

I really don't trust Landis either. Yes, occasionally cyclists can pull
extraordinary lone breakaways in the mountains, particularly if they can
get over the top of the first climb of the day on their own - a lone
descender, or better still a small group of descenders, really can
out-descend the peloton. But that performance was... improbable. And the
extraordinary amount of water Landis used on that day is suspicious. If
you were trying to flush something out of your system before you got to
doping control, that's exactly how you'd do it.

And, of course, he's ex US Postal.

I don't know. In Scotland we have a nice verdict 'not proven', which means
in effect everyone knows you did it, but the prosecution failed to prove
it. Me, I think that applies here.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; Women are from Venus. Men are from Mars. Lusers are from Uranus.

Tony Raven said:

Its probably worth reading the testimonies of Meier-Augenstein and
Davis, both experts in the field and one of whom was the designer of the
equipment used, who go into detail on what the problems with the
procedures and results are.

To my mind Meier Augenstein made a complete ass of his arguments wrt
retention times. He was completely wrong on what should have been
blindingly obvious to anyone in the field. So if he can't get that
right, the rest of his testimony is of questionable credibility.

I have not examined Davis testimony in detail. There is however a
world of difference in looking for relative differences (which is what
the assay does) rather than looking for absolute differences.

...d

In article <1i4sv8p.2ffdaeval75nN%
[email hidden]>, Ekul Namsob
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Chris Smith said:

mb said:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/other_sports/cycling/6686943.stm

Ban upheld. The whole case stinks.

Hmm... shock, horror! The French hate American cyclists.

Pretty much up there with "Jews hate Arabs" and "Protestants hate
Catholics". The world carries on turning...

Oh, sorry. I didn't realise I was supposed to hate Catholics. Thanks for
that tip. Would you like to suggest any individuals?

Just take the previous incarnation of 'Revd' Paisley as a role model and
you'll do fine. :-)

On Sep 21, 4:59 am, "L H OSWALD" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I don't know if its just a token jesture or a real attempt to clean up a
team from within but T-Mobiles manager has imposed some real draconian
measures to keep the team clean from within .
Apparently he does not trust the testing system and as riders samples tested
independently ... but that could mean independently in a lab that will ...
well lets just say wont get a positive ?????

I think that's unlikely. The reputations both T-Mobile and the
University of Bayreuth are at stake. See <http://www.t-mobile-team.com/
tmo_team/servlet/pages/110968/ref/894118>

"The T-Mobile Team riders' blood volume will in future be tested a
minimum of six times per season and monitored by independent experts
from Prof. Dr. Dr. Walter Schmidt's work group in Bayreuth. Apart from
the obligatory International Cycling Union (UCI) controls, a minimum
of two more random tests will be conducted directly after
competition."

--
Dave...