Lap pool suggestions

rtk said:

Blake Hyde said:

Locker rooms are a bit strange, yes. When I go to swim outside of
class, during rec swim hours, there are generally older people

there

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and they are quite unashamed with their nakedness. At class,

however,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

everyone does towel-changes and showers in their trunks.

I don't think this hang-up is going anywhere. I get the impression

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the current generation (my generation) is a lot more conservative,

in

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

some ways, than past generations have been.

Just my two cents.

I'm sure you don't mean ashamed, which implies some kind of guilt,

but

Quoted message said:

embarrassed, maybe? It's a surprising development, considering the

far

Quoted message said:

greater openness about bodies and sex since the days when those
unembarrassed old guys were your age. Something doesn't jibe. Could

Quoted message said:

the greater permissiveness of nudity or near nudity in movies, mtv,

and

Quoted message said:

clothing, generally, have resulted is a greater sense of

vulnerability

Quoted message said:

rather than the expected sense of freedom? Is it possible that one
feels everyone's eyes are now wide-open rather than tastefully

down-cast

Quoted message said:

in a locker room? Still, it doesn't quite explain the women's locker

Quoted message said:

room towel changes. We see each other every day and we really don't
stare. The young women definitely have a sense of something that I

don't

Quoted message said:

see. We don't see each other outside the locker room, so that

element

Quoted message said:

doesn't play a part. No cell phones (with or without camera) allowed

at

Quoted message said:

the Y, where everyone is young and all are doing the towel dress

dance.

Quoted message said:

Not easy, it's almost as contorted as the robot. In fact, that would

be

Quoted message said:

good, the towel change dance.

Ruth Kazez

Youth tend to be more in tune with anxieties over sexual predators.

a.c. said:

Youth tend to be more in tune with anxieties over sexual predators.

But predators are not new. Here's an off topic ancedote about myself: I
had it drummed into me daily how much I should fear bad men in cars with
candy, and the newspapers were certainly full of lurid tales of such
lurking, predating men. One day, when I was 8 years old, a man did
indeed lean out of a car and ask Do you wanna a piece of candy, little
girl? You can't begin to imagine how fast I ran the half mile home.
Nor can you imagine my embarrassment when I was told later that it was
my 25 year old snot of a brother who thought he was being cute. I never
recognized him; I just saw car and man and heard candy.

I know that there have always been problems in the men's locker rooms.
Yet, my high school insisted on nude swimming by the boys and nobody
cared. Something is different. Maybe predating is more casual now, on
a smaller scale and more frequent, but I think there's some other
influence and I can't guess what. Partly the predating, but if asked,
I'd imagine the girls would say that's not it, but I really doubt they
would be able to say what it is. There's a funny angle to this. When
the women are dressed, everything is hanging out. When we very-much-
everything-hanging-out women get dressed, we're all tucked away.

Ruth Kazez

rtk said:

a.c. said:

Youth tend to be more in tune with anxieties over sexual predators.

But predators are not new. Here's an off topic ancedote about

myself: I

Quoted message said:

had it drummed into me daily how much I should fear bad men in cars

with

Quoted message said:

candy, and the newspapers were certainly full of lurid tales of such
lurking, predating men. One day, when I was 8 years old, a man did
indeed lean out of a car and ask Do you wanna a piece of candy,

little

Quoted message said:

girl? You can't begin to imagine how fast I ran the half mile home.
Nor can you imagine my embarrassment when I was told later that it

was

Quoted message said:

my 25 year old snot of a brother who thought he was being cute. I

never

Quoted message said:

recognized him; I just saw car and man and heard candy.

I know that there have always been problems in the men's locker

rooms.

Quoted message said:

Yet, my high school insisted on nude swimming by the boys and nobody
cared. Something is different. Maybe predating is more casual now,

on

Quoted message said:

a smaller scale and more frequent, but I think there's some other
influence and I can't guess what. Partly the predating, but if

asked,

Quoted message said:

I'd imagine the girls would say that's not it, but I really doubt

they

Quoted message said:

would be able to say what it is. There's a funny angle to this.

When

Quoted message said:

the women are dressed, everything is hanging out. When we very-much-

Quoted message said:

everything-hanging-out women get dressed, we're all tucked away.

Ruth Kazez

Ruth; I don't think I can help you out much because you seem to have a
sense of something I haven't seen and I can't even begin to guess why
that might be, even though I've given it some thought.
Blake's post demonstrated the power of peer pressure. He did say
"unashamed" That suggests he is ashamed of his own body and that
fits in with the kind of awkwardness about body bits that teen's
experience. I think that media images are increasing feelings of
inferiority. On the other hand he could be referring to the older
men's blatantly ignoring elements of their conduct that can betray an
air of aggressive nudity. But then just like how the first small
scratch can seem like a tragedy, so too might more adult approaches to
changing rooms differ from his main experiences.

One venue I visited had communal changing rooms... It was one great big
area where everyone went to change, irrespective of gender.
Here within were numerous changing cubicles similar to what you might
find in a clothes store, except with fastenable doors. Each stall,
which was easily large enough for a parent and child, had a narrow
seat-like shelf and a hook. Thereafter the showers were open, or with a
curtain.
Umpteen coin operated (deposit) lockers lined the route to the pool.
I think I would have noticed nudity, so since I don't recall any I
guess none occurred. I do remember the discomfort with the idea of
showering using any soapy products. I have an idea of what they do to
both swimwear and the pool. I guess the proprietors were balancing the
cost to the pool water with the savings changing rooms. But I didn't
ask.
Perhaps men's changing rooms differ from women's, but I don't
know that either. What I do know is that I've never encountered a
changing room with sociability element factored into its design. So, no
place to chat means go, get undressed, showered, slip on bathing
costume, swim, return, strip off, bath, dress and out. There isn't
time for anything else in the changing room and maybe that's why I
never noticed what you seem to have. Or, maybe where I've swum,
there's never being sufficient difference between the changing habits
of the young and old for it to become noticeable to me.
Could towel change be more fashionable after the summer holiday trips
to the beach?
I do realise that the youth are more in tune with anxieties over sexual
predators and your little story highlights that. They can also be more
in tune with consideration for others and it is considerateness that
can sometimes excuse the towel dance. They can also be more concerned
with nudity, lest it inadvertently be misjudged as a sexual invite,
which apart from their own safety, they wouldn't wish to foist on
others. Off course paranoia would sum it up even better.
Incidentally, the only problem I've ever known off in any men's
changing room was theft and selfish behaviour (such as some idiot
emptying out his bag and proceeds to line up everything on the long
bench between the lockers as if that public utility has become his own
private market stall, thereby leaving no place for anyone else's
stuff.)
I do find it quite weird that a school would insist that a particular
age group and gender must swim nude. I guess it's interesting that
young women who might towel change then dress into clothing that is
more sexualised than the Baggies worn by the non-towel dancers.
Otherwise, I can't seem to get a handle on this problem from which a
definite route to answer your questions can emerge.
And as for how someone must factor in all those elements into the pool
facilities design... I am completly lost.

I don't know, a.c., if the high school still requires that the boys swim
nude. Probably not.

No question that recreational swimming serves social purposes as well
fitness. This is especially true for the very young who are brought by
a parent and also the very old. Little children benefit by playing in
the water with other kids more than by a one on one lesson with the
instructor and they also like to run amok naked in the locker room. The
little old ladies whom we are a bit quick to find annoying as they take
up both lanes talking and breaststroking have made a very healthful
mental choice to come exercise rather than talk to each other over
coffee. They seem not to do much in the pool, but you should see their
struggle just to change in and out of their suits. That in itself is
serious exercise for them. The mood in the locker room before swimming
is rather quiet, but afterwards, during the gang shower and open room
change, it's noisy and cheery. Very clearly there has been a big shift
up in mood. That's what has to be taken into account when building a
new facility. How to preserve that social setting while providing for
the newly developed discomforts some feel toward exposure is a bit tricky.

So maybe there's an inverse thing going on; the more we reveal with
clothes on, the more we treasure the little bit that hasn't been
uncovered in public. Today there was a quite heavy student whose
minimal shirt and tight pants were about 12 inches apart, revealing half
a dozen tattoos and a naval ring. She had a few green streaks in her
hair, altogether a fun appearance. After she did the towel dance, she
emerged in a thong, revealing some nice butterflies and a muppet. Her
priorities were a mystery to me.

A unisex locker room would be a riot here. You'd have men and women
running to escape the sight of the other sex at this particular time of
day. Believe me, it's not a pretty sight. These men and women are so
safe from predators, they'd have to beg one to look.

Ruth Kazez

rtk said:

I don't know, a.c., if the high school still requires that the boys

swim

Quoted message said:

nude. Probably not.

No question that recreational swimming serves social purposes as well

Quoted message said:

fitness. This is especially true for the very young who are brought

by

Quoted message said:

a parent and also the very old. Little children benefit by playing

in

Quoted message said:

the water with other kids more than by a one on one lesson with the
instructor and they also like to run amok naked in the locker room.

The

Quoted message said:

little old ladies whom we are a bit quick to find annoying as they

take

Quoted message said:

up both lanes talking and breaststroking have made a very healthful
mental choice to come exercise rather than talk to each other over
coffee. They seem not to do much in the pool, but you should see

their

Quoted message said:

struggle just to change in and out of their suits. That in itself is

Quoted message said:

serious exercise for them. The mood in the locker room before

swimming

Quoted message said:

is rather quiet, but afterwards, during the gang shower and open room

Quoted message said:

change, it's noisy and cheery. Very clearly there has been a big

shift

Quoted message said:

up in mood. That's what has to be taken into account when building a

Quoted message said:

new facility. How to preserve that social setting while providing

for

Quoted message said:

the newly developed discomforts some feel toward exposure is a bit

tricky.

Quoted message said:

So maybe there's an inverse thing going on; the more we reveal with
clothes on, the more we treasure the little bit that hasn't been
uncovered in public. Today there was a quite heavy student whose
minimal shirt and tight pants were about 12 inches apart, revealing

half

Quoted message said:

a dozen tattoos and a naval ring. She had a few green streaks in her
hair, altogether a fun appearance. After she did the towel dance,

she

Quoted message said:

emerged in a thong, revealing some nice butterflies and a muppet.

Her

Quoted message said:

priorities were a mystery to me.

A unisex locker room would be a riot here. You'd have men and women
running to escape the sight of the other sex at this particular time

of

Quoted message said:

day. Believe me, it's not a pretty sight. These men and women are

so

Quoted message said:

safe from predators, they'd have to beg one to look.

Ruth Kazez

I forgot to mention that the air temperature in the changing room set
to minimise spread of nasties that might prefer warmer settings, can be
too low for socialising moods...

a.c. said:

I forgot to mention that the air temperature in the changing room set
to minimise spread of nasties that might prefer warmer settings, can be
too low for socialising moods...

I noticed U.K.in your address. When my kids were in school for a while
in England, the windows were wide open in the gym in the middle of
winter. Pools also were freezing. It was a health issue, like exercise
is more beneficial if you're distinctly uncomfortable. Did not promote
subtle social interactions. I think, though, it would shrivel any
predating tendencies. Ummm...I don't mean pre-dating. I mean the
tendencies of a predator.

Ruth Kazez

rtk said:

a.c. said:

I forgot to mention that the air temperature in the changing room

set

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to minimise spread of nasties that might prefer warmer settings,

can be

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

too low for socialising moods...

I noticed U.K.in your address.

yes, I used too...

Quoted message said:

When my kids were in school for a while
in England, the windows were wide open in the gym in the middle of
winter.

Not haveing attended school here I can't comment, except that I've
heard this before.

Quoted message said:

Pools also were freezing.

I've known at least one public pool to be 32 degrees C. But that was
late winter-spring.

It was a health issue,

Yes I reckon that to be the case.

like exercise

Quoted message said:

is more beneficial if you're distinctly uncomfortable.

No, not like that, More like not wanting certain germs, or whatever, to
find it easy to spread and muliply.

Quoted message said:

Did not promote
subtle social interactions.

They have a name for that. It's Loitering (perhaps 'loitering with
intent'😉 .. assuming I'm spelling correctly.

That is because there are other outlets available for social
interaction. The pool I went to had a sauna, a steam room and 2
Jacuzzi's... all poolside... and then there was the juice bar near
the exit of the club.
So, it matters little if participants find the coolness of the changing
rooms (smelly socks... warm air... yuk) inclined to spur on a fast
flow. That in turn helps keep the numbers within the changing area down
so that it's not always crowded.
Ordinarily, cool does not mean everyone goes around saying "brrrrrrrr"
If the swim generates such good camaraderie, then it will spill out
beyond the changing rooms. If there is no further outlet (facilities)
and it ends on departure of the venue, then it can't have being that
great and so what if it's not continued in the changing rooms... it
would end soon anyway?

I think, though, it would shrivel any

Quoted message said:

predating tendencies. Ummm...I don't mean pre-dating. I mean the
tendencies of a predator.

along with any bug plans to date new hosts.

Quoted message said:

Ruth Kazez

You may want to consider breaking away from the idea of a strictly
"rectangular" pool, because there are some other great pool ideas out
there. I have seen some that have curved sides with concrete benches
in the water that people can relax in, and then the other two sides are
flat. This allows lane lines to be added or taken away.

Remember, not everyone is going to want to swim laps. You don't have
to swim laps to enjoy a pool. A pool should be inviting, and many
people will find a lap pool intimidating, and not want to use it.

People may enjoy a water aerobics class, and if you build a pool that's
too deep, you'll never be able to offer aerobics or water walking.

Quoted message said:

From your first posts, it sound like you're not building a competition

pool, so don't be locked into worring about the gutters or the blocks,
or even the depth so much. You want a multi-purpose facility, one that
will attract and interest all the different people in your company.

Ryan Howard
www.PineCrestSwimming.com
www.ICoachSwimming.com

rtk said:

I don't know, a.c., if the high school still requires that the boys

swim

Quoted message said:

nude. Probably not.

No question that recreational swimming serves social purposes as well

Quoted message said:

fitness. This is especially true for the very young who are brought

by

Quoted message said:

a parent and also the very old. Little children benefit by playing

in

Quoted message said:

the water with other kids more than by a one on one lesson with the
instructor and they also like to run amok naked in the locker room.

The

Quoted message said:

little old ladies whom we are a bit quick to find annoying as they

take

Quoted message said:

up both lanes talking and breaststroking have made a very healthful
mental choice to come exercise rather than talk to each other over
coffee. They seem not to do much in the pool, but you should see

their

Quoted message said:

struggle just to change in and out of their suits. That in itself is

Quoted message said:

serious exercise for them. The mood in the locker room before

swimming

Quoted message said:

is rather quiet, but afterwards, during the gang shower and open room

Quoted message said:

change, it's noisy and cheery. Very clearly there has been a big

shift

Quoted message said:

up in mood. That's what has to be taken into account when building a

Quoted message said:

new facility. How to preserve that social setting while providing

for

Quoted message said:

the newly developed discomforts some feel toward exposure is a bit

tricky.

Quoted message said:

So maybe there's an inverse thing going on; the more we reveal with
clothes on, the more we treasure the little bit that hasn't been
uncovered in public. Today there was a quite heavy student whose
minimal shirt and tight pants were about 12 inches apart, revealing

half

Quoted message said:

a dozen tattoos and a naval ring. She had a few green streaks in her
hair, altogether a fun appearance. After she did the towel dance,

she

Quoted message said:

emerged in a thong, revealing some nice butterflies and a muppet.

Her

Quoted message said:

priorities were a mystery to me.

A unisex locker room would be a riot here. You'd have men and women
running to escape the sight of the other sex at this particular time

of

Quoted message said:

day. Believe me, it's not a pretty sight. These men and women are

so

Quoted message said:

safe from predators, they'd have to beg one to look.

Ruth Kazez