lat exercise options

"Paul Coene" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hello.

I'm getting back into working out more (3 times a week). I have been
doing inclined rows and dumbell rows to work my lats, but increasingly
my chronically bad back is preventing me from doing these effectively.
I have added back strengthening exercises to my regimen, but I still
find one set of inclined rows to be uncomfortable, though I do arch my
back slightly to maintain good form.

I'd like to look into an option where I can do seated pulldowns to
work my lats. This type of exervise will work my lats as well as
inclined rows, yes?

Can anyone suggest some equipment to allow me to add this? I was
thinking of plopping a bowflex next to my bench and curl bar, but
people here seems to believe in free weights or bowflex and nothing in
between.

Everyone's bad back is different, but mine has responded very well to
deadlifts using the technique taught in "Power To The People!" by Pavel
Tsatsouline, see http://www.kbnj.com/ptp.htm - it's a different approach
to deadlifting than most people take. Personally, I've never found a
place for rows of any sort in my program and I have no plans to add
them - you can be plenty strong in general without doing any sort of
rowing motion.

Scroll up a couple of threads and see where someone else asked about
strengthening their lats and at least two of us have suggested
deadlifting.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Paul Coene said:

Hello.

I'm getting back into working out more (3 times a week). I have been
doing inclined rows and dumbell rows to work my lats, but increasingly
my chronically bad back is preventing me from doing these effectively.
I have added back strengthening exercises to my regimen, but I still
find one set of inclined rows to be uncomfortable, though I do arch my
back slightly to maintain good form.

I'd like to look into an option where I can do seated pulldowns to work
my lats. This type of exervise will work my lats as well as inclined
rows, yes?

Can anyone suggest some equipment to allow me to add this? I was
thinking of plopping a bowflex next to my bench and curl bar, but people
here seems to believe in free weights or bowflex and nothing in between.

Thanks in advance.

I can agree that deadlifts were very good for my lower back, but I'll
have to disagree that you need to buy a book. They're not exactly
rocket surgery, and there's plenty of freely-available resources on
the 'net.

If it were me, I'd dump the rows completely for now, and take a week
or two off. Then start with light deadlifts, and work up the weight
over a few months. Pulldowns should not be a problem. And when the
back feels strong, I'd think about working light rows back in.

-----------
Proton Soup

"Thanks for noticing that I didn't actually say anything." - Mike Lane

"Proton Soup" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Paul Coene said:

Hello.

I'm getting back into working out more (3 times a week). I have been
doing inclined rows and dumbell rows to work my lats, but increasingly
my chronically bad back is preventing me from doing these effectively.
I have added back strengthening exercises to my regimen, but I still
find one set of inclined rows to be uncomfortable, though I do arch my
back slightly to maintain good form.

I'd like to look into an option where I can do seated pulldowns to
work
my lats. This type of exervise will work my lats as well as inclined
rows, yes?

Can anyone suggest some equipment to allow me to add this? I was
thinking of plopping a bowflex next to my bench and curl bar, but
people
here seems to believe in free weights or bowflex and nothing in
between.

Thanks in advance.

I can agree that deadlifts were very good for my lower back, but I'll
have to disagree that you need to buy a book. They're not exactly
rocket surgery, and there's plenty of freely-available resources on
the 'net.

I did not suggest a "need to buy a book." I try to talk about my
experience - the book I recommended is the book I used to learn to
deadlift. Your mileage may vary and all that.

Steve "touchy" Freides
http://www.kbnj.com

Quoted message said:

If it were me, I'd dump the rows completely for now, and take a week
or two off. Then start with light deadlifts, and work up the weight
over a few months. Pulldowns should not be a problem. And when the
back feels strong, I'd think about working light rows back in.

-----------
Proton Soup

"Thanks for noticing that I didn't actually say anything." - Mike Lane

Paul Coene said:

Hello.

I'm getting back into working out more (3 times a week). I have been
doing inclined rows and dumbell rows to work my lats, but increasingly
my chronically bad back is preventing me from doing these effectively. I
have added back strengthening exercises to my regimen, but I still find
one set of inclined rows to be uncomfortable, though I do arch my back
slightly to maintain good form.

I'd like to look into an option where I can do seated pulldowns to work
my lats. This type of exervise will work my lats as well as inclined
rows, yes?

Can anyone suggest some equipment to allow me to add this? I was
thinking of plopping a bowflex next to my bench and curl bar, but people
here seems to believe in free weights or bowflex and nothing in between.

Thanks in advance.

I think people are misunderstanding my question. I want to know if
people can recommend an exercise for my lats that won't hurt my back
while I am doing it. I'll address getting my back in shape separately.
The pulldowns seem to be done well while seated, instead of standing
inclined, so I was looking for maybe some advice on equipment for that
(bowflex, etc).

"Paul Coene" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Paul Coene said:

Hello.

I'm getting back into working out more (3 times a week). I have been
doing inclined rows and dumbell rows to work my lats, but increasingly my
chronically bad back is preventing me from doing these effectively. I
have added back strengthening exercises to my regimen, but I still find
one set of inclined rows to be uncomfortable, though I do arch my back
slightly to maintain good form.

I'd like to look into an option where I can do seated pulldowns to work
my lats. This type of exervise will work my lats as well as inclined
rows, yes?

Can anyone suggest some equipment to allow me to add this? I was
thinking of plopping a bowflex next to my bench and curl bar, but people
here seems to believe in free weights or bowflex and nothing in between.

Thanks in advance.

I think people are misunderstanding my question. I want to know if people
can recommend an exercise for my lats that won't hurt my back while I am
doing it. I'll address getting my back in shape separately. The pulldowns
seem to be done well while seated, instead of standing inclined, so I was
looking for maybe some advice on equipment for that (bowflex, etc).

You could try bench pulls: lie face down on a (high) bench, barbell under
the bench, pull up to touch the bench and lower.

But the problem with this is that if you get strong, then you risk rib
injuries, and if you don't keep the bar controlled all the time (especially
lowering) you will get rib injuries.

Or you could get an overhead pulley and a weight stack, which has to be
cheaper than a bowflex and will do you seated pulldowns.

Peter

Paul Coene said:

Paul Coene said:

Hello.

I'm getting back into working out more (3 times a week). I have been
doing inclined rows and dumbell rows to work my lats, but increasingly
my chronically bad back is preventing me from doing these effectively. I
have added back strengthening exercises to my regimen, but I still find
one set of inclined rows to be uncomfortable, though I do arch my back
slightly to maintain good form.

I'd like to look into an option where I can do seated pulldowns to work
my lats. This type of exervise will work my lats as well as inclined
rows, yes?

Can anyone suggest some equipment to allow me to add this? I was
thinking of plopping a bowflex next to my bench and curl bar, but people
here seems to believe in free weights or bowflex and nothing in between.

Thanks in advance.

I think people are misunderstanding my question. I want to know if
people can recommend an exercise for my lats that won't hurt my back
while I am doing it. I'll address getting my back in shape separately.
The pulldowns seem to be done well while seated, instead of standing
inclined, so I was looking for maybe some advice on equipment for that
(bowflex, etc).

Pullups/chinups. If you're not strong enough for that, some kind of
pulldown device will have to do. You might also be able to do a
one-armed bent-over dumbell row with one arm on a bench to take the
stress off the back. http://www.exrx.net/Lists/ExList/BackWt.html
But it's probably not going to hit the lats very hard.

-----------
Proton Soup

"Thanks for noticing that I didn't actually say anything." - Mike Lane

Proton Soup said:

Paul Coene said:

I think people are misunderstanding my question. I want
to know if people can recommend an exercise for my lats
that won't hurt my back while I am doing it. I'll
address getting my back in shape separately.
The pulldowns seem to be done well while seated, instead
of standing inclined, so I was looking for maybe some
advice on equipment for that (bowflex, etc).

Pullups/chinups. If you're not strong enough for that,
some kind of pulldown device will have to do. You might
also be able to do a one-armed bent-over dumbell row with
one arm on a bench to take the stress off the back.
http://www.exrx.net/Lists/ExList/BackWt.html
But it's probably not going to hit the lats very hard.

It will if you use weights that are heavy enough. Most
don't, though.

Chest-supported T-bar rows are good, but not all gyms
have those devices.

"Proton Soup" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Paul Coene said:

Paul Coene said:

Hello.

I'm getting back into working out more (3 times a week). I have been
doing inclined rows and dumbell rows to work my lats, but increasingly
my chronically bad back is preventing me from doing these effectively. I
have added back strengthening exercises to my regimen, but I still find
one set of inclined rows to be uncomfortable, though I do arch my back
slightly to maintain good form.

I'd like to look into an option where I can do seated pulldowns to work
my lats. This type of exervise will work my lats as well as inclined
rows, yes?

Can anyone suggest some equipment to allow me to add this? I was
thinking of plopping a bowflex next to my bench and curl bar, but people
here seems to believe in free weights or bowflex and nothing in between.

Thanks in advance.

I think people are misunderstanding my question. I want to know if
people can recommend an exercise for my lats that won't hurt my back
while I am doing it. I'll address getting my back in shape separately.
The pulldowns seem to be done well while seated, instead of standing
inclined, so I was looking for maybe some advice on equipment for that
(bowflex, etc).

Pullups/chinups. If you're not strong enough for that, some kind of
pulldown device will have to do. You might also be able to do a
one-armed bent-over dumbell row with one arm on a bench to take the
stress off the back. http://www.exrx.net/Lists/ExList/BackWt.html
But it's probably not going to hit the lats very hard.

Will if you do it with decent weight and form (i.e. without the throwing the
upper body about shown in the exrx clip, follow the text instructions). On
the other hand you then have a fair amount of twist that your back has to be
able to cope with; enough that I notice I'm having to do a bit of work to
hold things in place, anyway.

Peter

Proton Soup said:

Paul Coene said:

Paul Coene said:

Hello.

I'm getting back into working out more (3 times a week). I have

been

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

doing inclined rows and dumbell rows to work my lats, but

increasingly

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

my chronically bad back is preventing me from doing these

effectively. I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

have added back strengthening exercises to my regimen, but I still

find

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

one set of inclined rows to be uncomfortable, though I do arch my

back

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

slightly to maintain good form.

I'd like to look into an option where I can do seated pulldowns to

work

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

my lats. This type of exervise will work my lats as well as

inclined

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

rows, yes?

Can anyone suggest some equipment to allow me to add this? I was
thinking of plopping a bowflex next to my bench and curl bar, but

people

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

here seems to believe in free weights or bowflex and nothing in

between.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Thanks in advance.

I think people are misunderstanding my question. I want to know if
people can recommend an exercise for my lats that won't hurt my back

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

while I am doing it. I'll address getting my back in shape

separately.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The pulldowns seem to be done well while seated, instead of

standing

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

inclined, so I was looking for maybe some advice on equipment for

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

(bowflex, etc).

Pullups/chinups. If you're not strong enough for that, some kind of
pulldown device will have to do. You might also be able to do a
one-armed bent-over dumbell row with one arm on a bench to take the
stress off the back. http://www.exrx.net/Lists/ExList/BackWt.html
But it's probably not going to hit the lats very hard.

Thr problem with that exercise is that most people don't use strict
form. In fact, very few. Especially when they use heavy weight. It then
becomes a convoluted contortionist movement often with no eccentric
component.

Another option is the chest-supported T-bar row.

Peter Allen said:

"Proton Soup" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 19:37:37 GMT, Paul Coene
Pullups/chinups. If you're not strong enough for that, some kind

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

pulldown device will have to do. You might also be able to do a
one-armed bent-over dumbell row with one arm on a bench to take the
stress off the back. http://www.exrx.net/Lists/ExList/BackWt.html
But it's probably not going to hit the lats very hard.

Will if you do it with decent weight and form (i.e. without the

throwing the

Quoted message said:

upper body about shown in the exrx clip, follow the text

instructions). On

Quoted message said:

the other hand you then have a fair amount of twist that your back

has to be

Quoted message said:

able to cope with; enough that I notice I'm having to do a bit of

work to

Quoted message said:

hold things in place, anyway.

Exactly, hence my comment on the exercise becoming a contortionist
movement. But using the heaviest weight possible often conflicts with
good form execution. I call it the 'Ego Isoform.' It seems to be
upregulated in a section of the population.

"elzinator" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Peter Allen said:

"Proton Soup" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 19:37:37 GMT, Paul Coene
Pullups/chinups. If you're not strong enough for that, some kind

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

pulldown device will have to do. You might also be able to do a
one-armed bent-over dumbell row with one arm on a bench to take the
stress off the back. http://www.exrx.net/Lists/ExList/BackWt.html
But it's probably not going to hit the lats very hard.

Will if you do it with decent weight and form (i.e. without the

throwing the

Quoted message said:

upper body about shown in the exrx clip, follow the text

instructions). On

Quoted message said:

the other hand you then have a fair amount of twist that your back

has to be

Quoted message said:

able to cope with; enough that I notice I'm having to do a bit of

work to

Quoted message said:

hold things in place, anyway.

Exactly, hence my comment on the exercise becoming a contortionist
movement. But using the heaviest weight possible often conflicts with
good form execution. I call it the 'Ego Isoform.' It seems to be
upregulated in a section of the population.

When is that not true?

At least in this case, if you have your knees locked out straight, then you
can look in a mirror and watch your head and other shoulder staying still.
If they are, then any form errors at least aren't cheating the weight up.

Peter

"Paul Coene" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Paul Coene said:

Hello.

I'm getting back into working out more (3 times a week). I have been
doing inclined rows and dumbell rows to work my lats, but
increasingly my chronically bad back is preventing me from doing
these effectively. I have added back strengthening exercises to my
regimen, but I still find one set of inclined rows to be
uncomfortable, though I do arch my back slightly to maintain good
form.

I'd like to look into an option where I can do seated pulldowns to
work my lats. This type of exervise will work my lats as well as
inclined rows, yes?

Can anyone suggest some equipment to allow me to add this? I was
thinking of plopping a bowflex next to my bench and curl bar, but
people here seems to believe in free weights or bowflex and nothing
in between.

Thanks in advance.

I think people are misunderstanding my question. I want to know if
people can recommend an exercise for my lats that won't hurt my back
while I am doing it. I'll address getting my back in shape
separately. The pulldowns seem to be done well while seated, instead
of standing inclined, so I was looking for maybe some advice on
equipment for that (bowflex, etc).

I understood your question fine the first time. Rows are, for some
people, just plain hard on the back. Elzi mentions why - it's hard to
keep good form and somehow doing them with a light enough weight doesn't
always translate into gradually improving form - or you need a heavier
weight for your lats than your back can handle - or whatever, rows
aren't working for you, so you want to try something else - that's good.

Deadlifts could be good for you - yes, they will work your back while
also working your lats, but there's nothing wrong with that. It's
possible that your back won't like deadlifts, either, but they're such a
great exercise, I think it's worth the effort to give them a try.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Peter Allen said:

"elzinator" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Peter Allen said:

"Proton Soup" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 19:37:37 GMT, Paul Coene
> Pullups/chinups. If you're not strong enough for that, some kind

of

Quoted message said:

> pulldown device will have to do. You might also be able to do a
> one-armed bent-over dumbell row with one arm on a bench to take the
> stress off the back. http://www.exrx.net/Lists/ExList/BackWt.html
> But it's probably not going to hit the lats very hard.

Will if you do it with decent weight and form (i.e. without the

throwing the

Quoted message said:

upper body about shown in the exrx clip, follow the text

instructions). On

Quoted message said:

the other hand you then have a fair amount of twist that your back

has to be

Quoted message said:

able to cope with; enough that I notice I'm having to do a bit of

work to

Quoted message said:

hold things in place, anyway.

Exactly, hence my comment on the exercise becoming a contortionist
movement. But using the heaviest weight possible often conflicts with
good form execution. I call it the 'Ego Isoform.' It seems to be
upregulated in a section of the population.

When is that not true?

Plenty of times. I saw several examples this evening at the gym. (I
train with some intelligent and self-secure powerlifters)

Quoted message said:

At least in this case, if you have your knees locked out straight, then you
can look in a mirror and watch your head and other shoulder staying still.
If they are, then any form errors at least aren't cheating the weight up.

But if you don't really see your shoulders move, does that mean they
don't move?
Theory of Relative Training

(and post-WO punchiness)

------------------------------
Reality is an illusion created by an intelligence deficiency.

Paul Coene said:

Hello.

I'm getting back into working out more (3 times a week). I have been
doing inclined rows and dumbell rows to work my lats, but increasingly
my chronically bad back is preventing me from doing these effectively. I
have added back strengthening exercises to my regimen, but I still find
one set of inclined rows to be uncomfortable, though I do arch my back
slightly to maintain good form.

I'd like to look into an option where I can do seated pulldowns to work
my lats. This type of exervise will work my lats as well as inclined
rows, yes?

Can anyone suggest some equipment to allow me to add this? I was
thinking of plopping a bowflex next to my bench and curl bar, but people
here seems to believe in free weights or bowflex and nothing in between.

Thanks in advance.

Chin ups, one arm dumbbell rows, you can buy a plate loaded (you use
your own plates to weight it) lat pulldown machine with a low pulley for
seated rows for less than the price of a bowflex...

--
spammage trappage: replace fishies_ with yahoo

I'm going to die rather sooner than I'd like. I tried to protect my
neighbours from crime, and became the victim of it. Complications in
hospital following this resulted in a serious illness. I now need a bone
marrow transplant. Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow
transplant, too. Please volunteer to be a marrow donor:
http://www.abmdr.org.au/
http://www.marrow.org/

Paul Coene said:

I think people are misunderstanding my question. I want to know if
people can recommend an exercise for my lats that won't hurt my back
while I am doing it.

Chinups? Pullups? Pulldowns?

Quoted message said:

, so I was looking for maybe some advice on equipment for that
(bowflex, etc).

Disregard any advice from anyone who would advise
you to get a bowflex.

--
Helgi Briem hbriem AT simnet DOT is

"elzinator" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Peter Allen said:

"elzinator" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Exactly, hence my comment on the exercise becoming a contortionist
movement. But using the heaviest weight possible often conflicts with
good form execution. I call it the 'Ego Isoform.' It seems to be
upregulated in a section of the population.

When is that not true?

Plenty of times. I saw several examples this evening at the gym. (I
train with some intelligent and self-secure powerlifters)

I meant things can always be done with poor form, not everyone does some
things with poor form...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

At least in this case, if you have your knees locked out straight, then
you
can look in a mirror and watch your head and other shoulder staying still.
If they are, then any form errors at least aren't cheating the weight up.

But if you don't really see your shoulders move, does that mean they
don't move?
Theory of Relative Training

Well, it does if there's something behind you which you can see in the
mirror and wrt which your shoulder and head can be seen to be fixed.

all lifts are both good and bad lifts until observed.
Theory of Quantum Training.

Peter

Peter Allen said:

"elzinator" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Peter Allen said:

"elzinator" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
>
> Exactly, hence my comment on the exercise becoming a

contortionist

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> movement. But using the heaviest weight possible often conflicts

with

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> good form execution. I call it the 'Ego Isoform.' It seems to be
> upregulated in a section of the population.

When is that not true?

Plenty of times. I saw several examples this evening at the gym. (I
train with some intelligent and self-secure powerlifters)

I meant things can always be done with poor form, not everyone does

some

Quoted message said:

things with poor form...

I misinterpreted. Scuse'

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

At least in this case, if you have your knees locked out straight,

then

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

you
can look in a mirror and watch your head and other shoulder staying

still.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If they are, then any form errors at least aren't cheating the

weight up.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But if you don't really see your shoulders move, does that mean

they

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

don't move?
Theory of Relative Training

Well, it does if there's something behind you which you can see in

the

Quoted message said:

mirror and wrt which your shoulder and head can be seen to be fixed.

all lifts are both good and bad lifts until observed.
Theory of Quantum Training.

Yes, that was the implied point of my comment.

Paul Coene said:

Paul Coene said:

Hello.

I'm getting back into working out more (3 times a week). I have been
doing inclined rows and dumbell rows to work my lats, but increasingly
my chronically bad back is preventing me from doing these effectively.
I have added back strengthening exercises to my regimen, but I still
find one set of inclined rows to be uncomfortable, though I do arch my
back slightly to maintain good form.

I'd like to look into an option where I can do seated pulldowns to
work my lats. This type of exervise will work my lats as well as
inclined rows, yes?

Can anyone suggest some equipment to allow me to add this? I was
thinking of plopping a bowflex next to my bench and curl bar, but
people here seems to believe in free weights or bowflex and nothing in
between.

Thanks in advance.

I think people are misunderstanding my question. I want to know if
people can recommend an exercise for my lats that won't hurt my back
while I am doing it. I'll address getting my back in shape separately.
The pulldowns seem to be done well while seated, instead of standing
inclined, so I was looking for maybe some advice on equipment for that
(bowflex, etc).

Are you strong enough to do chinups?

"elzinator" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Peter Allen said:

"elzinator" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 21:25:07 -0000, Peter Allen wrote:
>"elzinator" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>news:[email hidden]...
>>
>> Exactly, hence my comment on the exercise becoming a

contortionist

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> movement. But using the heaviest weight possible often conflicts

with

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> good form execution. I call it the 'Ego Isoform.' It seems to be
>> upregulated in a section of the population.
>
>When is that not true?

Plenty of times. I saw several examples this evening at the gym. (I
train with some intelligent and self-secure powerlifters)

I meant things can always be done with poor form, not everyone does

some

Quoted message said:

things with poor form...

I misinterpreted. Scuse'

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>At least in this case, if you have your knees locked out straight,

then

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>you
>can look in a mirror and watch your head and other shoulder staying

still.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>If they are, then any form errors at least aren't cheating the

weight up.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But if you don't really see your shoulders move, does that mean

they

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

don't move?
Theory of Relative Training

Well, it does if there's something behind you which you can see in

the

Quoted message said:

mirror and wrt which your shoulder and head can be seen to be fixed.

all lifts are both good and bad lifts until observed.
Theory of Quantum Training.

Yes, that was the implied point of my comment.