Legalisation of flashing lights [long]



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In message <[email protected]>, Pete Biggs
<pLime{remove_fruit}@biggs.tc> writes
>Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
>> Um, they mostly already have really big steady red lights at the back.....
>
>I'm thinking: bigger, much bigger
>
How about a proximity sensor linked to light that flashes up when a car approaches to close -
something like 'Oi! F***ing big truck in front' or something?
--
Chris French, Leeds
 
On Fri, 31 Jan 2003 19:41:26 -0000, "Danny Colyer" <[email protected]> wrote:

>I haven't seen flashing amber lights on skips or roadworks for years, though AFAIK they are still a
>legal requirement.

You have to be quick - they last about 15 ns before a pssing student "liberates" them :)

Guy
===
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On Fri, 31 Jan 2003 20:05:22 +0000, chris French <[email protected]> wrote:

>How about a proximity sensor linked to light that flashes up when a car approaches to close -
>something like 'Oi! F***ing big truck in front' or something?

How about a wet fish on a spring loaded arm linked to proximity radar inside the car? *whack!* wake
up you dozy ****!

Guy
===
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On Fri, 31 Jan 2003 18:24:27 -0000, "Pete Biggs" <pLime{remove_fruit}@biggs.tc> wrote:

>> The vulnerable bit is the driver or operator, and quite often they are hit while away to one side
>> of the vehicle.

>Operators are indeed vulnerable when outside the vehicle, but that's separate from the vehicle
>getting hit, and people in cars getting hurt. We don't have to just deal with the /most/
>vulnerable.

But it's the operators the regulation change is concerned with, according to the briefing.

>> I would argue for them to have the flashing lights, not the vehicle, on the grounds that anyone
>> who can't spot a vehicle which is usually covered from top to bottom in Diamond Grade and orange
>> beacons is pretty much a lost cause anyway.

>I hope those in charge are not so defeatist.

It's not defeatism, if you can't spot a bloody breakdown truck lit up like a fairground, adding a
couple of red flashers isn't going to help!

Guy
===
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Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
> On Fri, 31 Jan 2003 19:41:26 -0000, "Danny Colyer" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>I haven't seen flashing amber lights on skips or roadworks for years, though AFAIK they are still
>>a legal requirement.
>
>
> You have to be quick - they last about 15 ns before a pssing student "liberates" them :)

Just think how much more popular they would be if they also served as freely available
bike lights...

James
 
Danny Colyer wrote:
> James Annan wrote:
>
>>But do you think that 'confusing and difficult to interpret' is hazardous? I'd have thought that
>>something that demands attention would be substantially safer than something easily ignored.
>
>
> 'Confusing and difficult to interpret' means increased brain processing time, distracting from
> other aspects of driving.

ITYM 'distracting the driver from picking his nose and listening to the radio' (and that's assuming
he's not doing anything worse). I take that as a good sign. I am greatly encouraged by drivers (and
cyclists, too) saying how annoying and distracting the flashing lights are. It means that the
cyclist is grabbing their attention. Maybe in an ideal world, and for ideal drivers such as
yourself, that means that the driver is giving less attention to other equally vulnerable things
like lamp-posts, stationary breakdown vehicles and skips, but in the real world I'm confident that
this 'annoyance' is in fact due to the driver suffering the indignity of actually having to pay
proper attention to the cyclist and concentrate on his driving for a change. The alternative would
appear to be a SMIDSY. If drivers 'noticed' cyclists with steady lights then maybe you would have a
valid point.

James
 
In message <[email protected]>, James Annan <[email protected]> writes
>Danny Colyer wrote:
>> James Annan wrote:
>>
>>>But do you think that 'confusing and difficult to interpret' is hazardous? I'd have thought that
>>>something that demands attention would be substantially safer than something easily ignored.
>>
>>
>> 'Confusing and difficult to interpret' means increased brain processing time, distracting from
>> other aspects of driving.
>
>ITYM 'distracting the driver from picking his nose and listening to the radio' (and that's assuming
>he's not doing anything worse). I take that as a good sign. I am greatly encouraged by drivers (and
>cyclists, too) saying how annoying and distracting the flashing lights are. It means that the
>cyclist is grabbing their attention.

<snip>

I don't find flashing red LEDS distracting or annoying, I chose my words carefully.

I can find flashing LEDS used alone 'confusing and difficult to interpret' because it can be hard to
work out where the bike (if that's what it is) is, how it is moving etc. This is not good IMO.

What is required surely is to firstly notice the light (s) etc., and then to be able quickly
interpret what is seen as being a bicycle or whatever, then you are able to take the correct action
(you may not of course, but that's a different matter)

A flashing light as well as a steady light may help in this process (though I'm not convinced). As
single flasher doesn't do it for me.

>If drivers 'noticed' cyclists with steady lights then maybe you would have a valid point.
>
I've travelled many miles at night, on unlit and well lit roads, in all sorts of traffic. On a bike
with at the most 2 steady rear lights, mostly one until recently I have never been hit at night. I
don't think I'm passed too close to by any more drivers than I am in the daytime, in fact I would
say less often.

The two instance s I can remember of being actually hit from a vehicle behind have both happened in
the daytime, one when it overtook me too close and it's mirror clipped me - the driver knew I was
there - he had slowed down first, he was just being a selfish git.

the second was when a car almost hit the bike going on to a roundabout - he actually hit the
panniers, but just missed the actual bike and me - he too had seen me, but was careless (rather than
deliberately dangerous) aFAICT he thought I had carried on onto the roundabout, but I had stopped,
he was I think concentrating more on the traffic on the roundabout and realised to late that I was
still there
--
Chris French, Leeds
 
James Annan <[email protected]> wrote:
> I am greatly encouraged by drivers (and cyclists, too) saying how annoying and distracting the
> flashing lights are. It means that the cyclist is grabbing their attention.

Don't be too encouraged, my annoyance as a cyclist and a driver is that a cyclist is using a light
that is not that obvious and that makes it difficult to gauge their location and direction if you
do spot it.

Tony

http://www.raven-family.com

"The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" George
Bernard Shaw.
 
In article <[email protected]> on Thu, 30 Jan 2003 15:33:20 -0000 "Pete
Biggs" <pLime{remove_fruit}@biggs.tc> wrote:

> Red lights are associated with REAR of vehicles. Orange and yellow lights are associated with all
> sorts of other things. The dozey motorist reacts more instinctively to red lights - by far the
> best colour to indicate danger.
<rant> But only if you don't use green to indicate safety as well. Then 10% of men, and some
minuscule percentage (under 1 in 1000, IIRC) of women won't be able to tell the difference.

Whoever decided to use green and red for "go" and "stop" should have been taken out and given a good
seeing to. Over 100 years ago a royal commission (in the case of a train accident) decided that
using red and green together was incredibly foolish. But of course nobody took any notice, and we
still use red/green all over the place (traffic lights, railway crossings, etc). </rant
 
I was in Oxford at the weekend and while travelling up Cowley Road on a bus I noticed around 4
cops on MTBs. What surprised me were their lights. They all had a steady and a flashing rear light
fixed on the back. On the front they had a flashing white LED. There didn't seem to be any other
light on the front but as they were stationary I guess it was possible they had a dynamo that I
didn't notice.

All very sensible and adequate for the area they were cycling in but shouldn't they be setting an
example of adhering strictly to the letter of the law :)

Colin
 
Colin Blackburn <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<MPG.18a8545e233295ee98973b@localhost>...
> I was in Oxford at the weekend and while travelling up Cowley Road on a bus I noticed around 4
> cops on MTBs. What surprised me were their lights. They all had a steady and a flashing rear light
> fixed on the back. On the front they had a flashing white LED. There didn't seem to be any other
> light on the front but as they were stationary I guess it was possible they had a dynamo that I
> didn't notice.
>
> All very sensible and adequate for the area they were cycling in but shouldn't they be setting an
> example of adhering strictly to the letter of the law :)
>
> Colin
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last summer I was in Manchester and there were about 30 police cyclists policing a public event, and
every single one of them had flashing red LED lights. I attempted to explain to one of them that
this was illegal but I was met with a blank stare and a shrug of the shoulders.

Cant complain too much though I use one myself.
 
On 2 Feb 2003 22:43:16 -0000 someone who may be [email protected] (Geraint
Jones) wrote this:-

>Julian Wald <[email protected]> wrote:
>> ... we still use red/green all over the place (traffic lights, railway crossings,
>> etc).
>
>What sort of railway crossing is that?

A Miniature Warning Light level crossing.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E I will always explain revoked
keys, unless the UK government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.
 
On Sun, 02 Feb 2003 22:22:53 +0000 someone who may be Julian Wald <[email protected]> wrote this:-

>Whoever decided to use green and red for "go" and "stop" should have been taken out and given a
>good seeing to. Over 100 years ago a royal commission (in the case of a train accident) decided
>that using red and green together was incredibly foolish.

A Royal Commission into a train crash. Fascinating. Which train crash was it?

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E I will always explain revoked
keys, unless the UK government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.
 
On 6 Feb 2003 01:12:35 -0000 someone who may be [email protected] (Geraint
Jones) wrote this:-

> ) A Miniature Warning Light level crossing.
>
>If I know what one of those is, it does have "Red", as well as "STOP", written next to the red
>light and "Green" written next to the green one.

Correct.

>I suppose that wouldn't work for someone colourbling who couldn't cope with reading that
>much English.

They would face many other problems traversing roads in any English speaking country.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E I will always explain revoked
keys, unless the UK government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.
 
On Thu, 06 Feb 2003 00:12:04 +0000 someone who may be David Hansen <[email protected]>
wrote this:-

>On Sun, 02 Feb 2003 22:22:53 +0000 someone who may be Julian Wald <[email protected]> wrote this:-
>
>>Whoever decided to use green and red for "go" and "stop" should have been taken out and given a
>>good seeing to. Over 100 years ago a royal commission (in the case of a train accident) decided
>>that using red and green together was incredibly foolish.
>
>A Royal Commission into a train crash. Fascinating. Which train crash was it?

I note that I have seen no answer.

Point of information. Over 100 years ago was the time when British railways didn't use red and green
together. The colour used for "All right" was white. The use of green for "All right" was
standardised about 1895. The change was made because of the danger of drivers mistaking other white
lights for signal lights, the lights in signal boxes had to be specially masked to reduce the
possibility of mistakes. A description of the Clayton Tunnel crash should cover the fact that the
signalman replaced his red flag with a white one just before the crash.

Green was used as a "Caution" indication by some companies. Green lights were also used by some
companies on the front of trains. This continued until at least 1915, as in that year there was a
triple collision at St Beedes Junction in which the green light on a locomotive was a factor.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E I will always explain revoked
keys, unless the UK government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.
 
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