Lie by Fogel <tm>

Andre Jute wrote:
<snip [censored]>

are you related to this guy?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MI-5_Persecution

Andre Jute wrote:

{Hugh Jass Memorial Snip}

Quoted message said:

You a simpering backstabber, Carl Fogel, and a liar, and a false
accuser. In short, you're scum.

Careful, that's definition of character. (Or the lack thereof.)

Quoted message said:

Andre Jute
Zero tolerance for pompous little netfuhrers

Get in line.

Bill "just plonk him and move on" S.

Andre Jute said:

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 07:40:44 -0800 (PST), [email hidden] wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Jan 25, 10:08 am, Andre Jute <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> I deliberately delayed giving a full explanation, and several times
> gave Fogel the tip that he made wrong assumptions, to give him time to
> apologize. He didn't.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And he shouldn't.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

- Frank Krygowski

Quoted message said:

Dear Frank,

Quoted message said:

I won't.

Quoted message said:

First Andre started off with the casual comment that he did well over
100 kmh "downhill, of course."

Of course one adds "downhill, of course". One doesn't want to claim to
be as athletic as much more dedicated cyclists.

Quoted message said:

When several people pointed out the unlikelihood of that,

This is a lie by Fogel, attempting to confuse the timeline. Only one
person, Clive George, posted about it, and he merely asked for the
place. Nobody mentioned unlikelihood to me. Before I could reply, Carl
Fogel several times called me a liar.

Quoted message said:

he whined

This is a lie by Fogel whose object is to confuse the timeline by a
whole day. Only *after* Fogel called me a liar several times did I
object.

Quoted message said:

that we might as well ask for proof that the sun came up.

This is a lie by Fogel. He tries to put words in my mouth that I never
spoke and that are contrary to the ones I did speak:
"Yes, I was amazed that Fogel should start calling me a liar before I
could even answer. I hadn't realized that, in Fogel's McCathyite
worldview, rec.bicycles.tech is so largely populated by liars that
anyone saying the sun shines outside should first present a notarized
report from the weather bureau."

Quoted message said:

Pressed for the place, he came up with an obscure road.

Why, are only famous roads in America, personally approved by Carl
Fogel, good enough to be towed a miserable 100kph on?

Of course a road I can block off temporarily without attracting
official attention is obscure, you moron. Irish farm lanes aren't
labelled with names or numbers either. I had to identify this one by
names of fields on the Ordnance Survey map.

Quoted message said:

Gradually he developed a whole new story

This lie by Fogel is given the lie by the contrary claim that I
trolled Fogel by withholding the facts. If I selectively withheld the
facts, I wasn't "developing" a whole new story, I was just not telling
all of it.

Quoted message said:

involving a truck and
recording his speed "on a certified calibrated government approved
speedometer."

This is Fogel's provincial American ignorance dressed up as an
accusation of lying. Such speedometers are fitted to all longrange
trucks in Europe to ensure the drivers don't work more hours than
legally permitted, don't speed, and so on.

Quoted message said:

It's just as plausible as

Unlikehood is neither impossibility nor untruth.

Quoted message said:

his original story.

Another lie by Fogel. There is only one story. But Fogel accused me of
being a liar before I could tell it, so I withheld the crucial fact
while he made a fool of himself. Fogel has only his weak and vicious
character to blame for his embarrassment.

Quoted message said:

If encouraged, he'd
probably develop a long story about that amazing speedometer and why
he didn't mention the speed that it supposedly recorded.

Here Fogel looks into the future and tells you he knows what I will
say and in advance declares it a lie. No better example of Carl
Fogel's malice and dishonesty is likely to be found. Oh, and this,

Quoted message said:

he didn't mention the speed that it supposedly recorded.

is another lie by Fogel. I did mention the speed the truck speedometer
recorded, the release speed of 105kph.

Quoted message said:

His story wouldn't show any awareness that his "downhill, of course"
was nonsense--riders have been beating 60 mph while drafting on the
flats for over a century.

Once more Fogel looks into the future and claims to know what is in my
mind. This time he finds ignorance. No comment because none is
necessary.

Quoted message said:

It doesn't really matter whether Andre actually thinks that it's
necessary to add "downhill, of course" while not mentioning "behind a
truck," whether he really knows of a "certified calibrated government
approved speedometer," or whether he's just a compulsive Munchausen
who plans to keep changing his stories until they're believed--who's
going to believe his next implausible story?

In plain English: "I, Carl Fogel, will call Andre Jute a liar
regardless of what he says."

I might point out that what is plausible on Fogel's little street
corner is hardly a universal standard, nor cause for this scumbag
Fogel to call anyone a liar. But why bother? Fogel has already told us
that if I say, "The sun is shining," he will call me a liar.

Quoted message said:

He'll just claim that
everyone who doubted him was making foolish assumptions and should
have realized that he was drafting a truck downhill.

Again, Fogel claims to see into my mind and to know what I will say.
And again he declares in advance that whatever I say is a lie.

Quoted message said:

Or that the sun
was up, just in Thailand, not Ireland. Or whatever dodge he thinks
will keep people talking to him.

What did I just tell you!

Quoted message said:

If you met a fellow who told stories that way outside the internet,
you'd simply walk away from him

If I met a fellow who called me a liar before I even told the story,
which is what Fogel has done, I'd kick his butt over the houses to
teach him some manners.

Quoted message said:

and his explanations about how honest
he is.

This is a lie by Fogel. I don't need to explain how honest I am, nor
have I done so. Straightforward rationality will explain to all men of
goodwill how honest -- or otherwise -- I am.

Quoted message said:

I don't plan to feed the troll.

Run, rabbit, run.

Quoted message said:

Cheers,

Quoted message said:

Carl Fogel

You a simpering backstabber, Carl Fogel, and a liar, and a false
accuser. In short, you're scum.

Andre Jute
Zero tolerance for pompous little netfuhrers

Now in a Usenet Theatre near you: "The Talltale Teller vs. The Smarmy
[censored]!"

Pass the popcorn. :-)

Dans le message de news:[email hidden],
Bill Sornson <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

Quoted message said:

Andre Jute wrote:

{Hugh Jass Memorial Snip}

Quoted message said:

You a simpering backstabber, Carl Fogel, and a liar, and a false
accuser. In short, you're scum.

Careful, that's definition of character. (Or the lack thereof.)

Quoted message said:

Andre Jute
Zero tolerance for pompous little netfuhrers

Get in line.

Bill "just plonk him and move on" S.

Didn't he take a long leave of absence at one point?
Not that I recommend very strongly that he do so, but ....

In article
<[email hidden]>,
Andre Jute <[email hidden]> wrote:

I address myself to everyone. As a matter of fact Carl Fogel
never once said that Andre Jute lied or is a liar.
It is rather surprising how quickly that the counter-claim
has been taken to be fact.

I am as quick as anyone to understand the direction of
Carl Fogel's writing. He implies that he does not believe
Andre Jute and presents evidence that everyone should accept
as being compelling _for_Carl_.

Please, everyone, keep your facts straight.

--
Michael Press

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Andre Jute said:

If I met a fellow who called me a liar before I even told the story,
which is what Fogel has done, I'd kick his butt over the houses to
teach him some manners.

What kind of person immediately turns to violence
when his word is called into question.

"Do not question what I say, else I will beat you
into submission."

--
Michael Press

Michael Press said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,
Andre Jute <[email hidden]> wrote:

I address myself to everyone. As a matter of fact Carl Fogel
never once said that Andre Jute lied or is a liar.

I am Andre Jute, the guy Carl Fogel called a liar. It seems pretty
clear to me that Fogel intended to call me a liar. The sequence, the
speed of Fogel's reaction before I could put any facts on the table,
the repetiion, all of it adds up to a single conclusion: the slimeball
Fogel called me a liar and he did it intentionally. Here's the story
in short dated takes:

****
Clive George Jan 23, 5.20pm:
"That's pretty fast - what hill?"

Andre Jute Jan 23, 5:42 pm:
"Not a famous hill. A tarmacadam farm lane."

Clive George Jan 23, 6:09 pm:
"Whereabouts is it?"

Carl Fogel Jan 23, 7:00 pm, less than an hour later calls me a liar
without waiting for my reply to Clive:
"I'm not surprised that you got no real answer beyond that vague
tarmacadam farm lane that only one farmer uses, continent
unspecified...etc"

Carl Fogel Jan 23, 7:43 pm, only an hour and a half after Clive asked
his question, and still without waiting for my reply, repeats the
accusation that I'm a liar:
"And I'd still be pleased to find that my skepticism is wrong and
that
there is a paved farm lane long enough and steep enough for that kind
of bike to do well over 100 kmh."

Fogel meanwhile sneers and jeers his way through the me-too posts of
his gang getting in their knocks. I don't know anything about all
this
for another 16 hours...

It is the next day before I answer Clive's question:
Andre Jute Jan 24, 12:03 pm:
Etc. At this point, where I'm just starting to put facts on the
table, the slimeball Fogel had already repeatedly called me a liar.

********

Here Michael Press continues:

Quoted message said:

It is rather surprising how quickly that the counter-claim
has been taken to be fact.

Especially among the little Krygo-Fogel gangbangers. One Michael Press
for instance twice called me a liar. Hey, isn't it Michael Press who's
saying here that Carl Fogel is innocent? Holy Moses, so it is. So
where did Press, who offered no facts, no argument, no rationale for
calling me a liar, where, oh where did Press get that "liar" from.
Why, he got it from his uberfuhrer Fogel.

The rest of the gang also piled in, of course, screeching "liar,
liar". That was when I looked like a victim, waiting for all the
little gangbangers to declare themselves so I could make a list. Now
that I have my list and am working down it, suddenly poor Carl Fogel
is much misunderstood.... And with him of course all the little
gangbangers will claim they didn't call me a liar, it is all a
misunderstanding. I don't think so.

You're a liar and a hypocrite, Michael Press.

Quoted message said:

I am as quick as anyone to understand the direction of
Carl Fogel's writing.

Only too damned right. That's why you stand on the record as calling
me a liar, because you "understood the direction of Carl Fogel's
writing". You're as clumsy as Krygowski, so be careful you don't pull
your own [censored] off, Press.

Quoted message said:

He implies that he does not believe
Andre Jute and presents evidence that everyone should accept
as being compelling _for_Carl_.

It's the form of Fogel's insinuation (notice how Press tries to sneak
a mere implication past us) and the timing and the number of those
insinuations that together add up to an accusation of lying. Anyway,
if it was all a mistake on Fogel's part, I gave him plenty of time and
several opportunities to retract and apologise, and he told us
specifically, "I won't."

There is absolutely nothing left to conclude except that Fogel
deliberately and with malice aforethought called me a liar. Now he can
either prove it or take the consequences. Fogel's little acolytes like
Press begging for forgiveness or, worse, a fudge of "misunderstanding"
cut no ice whatsoever.

Quoted message said:

Please, everyone, keep your facts straight.

We have our facts straight. They are in the four posts of my main
indictment of Carl Fogel and his gang for crimes against common
decency:

http://groups.google.ie/group/rec.bicycles.tech/browse_thread/thread/d70e2da25ba66ded/31bf28fb8c1ef9f6?hl=en#31bf28fb8c1ef9f6

http://groups.google.ie/group/rec.bicycles.tech/browse_thread/thread/369236a366a15e3d/768dfafdfe423a81?hl=en#768dfafdfe423a81

http://groups.google.ie/group/rec.bicycles.tech/browse_thread/thread/814c8c65e8d2283c/8ef3d064268fd70f?hl=en#8ef3d064268fd70f

http://groups.google.ie/group/rec.bicycles.tech/browse_thread/thread/38818d85738b341f?hl=en#

Quoted message said:

Michael Press

Lying scum. A consorter of lying scum. A liar on behalf of lying scum.

Andre Jute
Pass up the black cap

Here is the original in this thread, including the false accuser
Fogel's refusal to retract and apologize, and several more accusations
by Fogel:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Andre Jute said:

I deliberately delayed giving a full explanation, and several times
gave Fogel the tip that he made wrong assumptions, to give him time to
apologize. He didn't.

And he shouldn't.

- Frank Krygowski

Dear Frank,

I won't.

First Andre started off with the casual comment that he did well over
100 kmh "downhill, of course."

Of course one adds "downhill, of course". One doesn't want to claim to
be as athletic as much more dedicated cyclists.

Quoted message said:

When several people pointed out the unlikelihood of that,

This is a lie by Fogel, attempting to confuse the timeline. Only one
person, Clive George, posted about it, and he merely asked for the
place. Nobody mentioned unlikelihood to me. Before I could reply, Carl
Fogel several times called me a liar.

Quoted message said:

he whined

This is a lie by Fogel whose object is to confuse the timeline by a
whole day. Only *after* Fogel called me a liar several times did I
object.

Quoted message said:

that we might as well ask for proof that the sun came up.

This is a lie by Fogel. He tries to put words in my mouth that I never
spoke and that are contrary to the ones I did speak:
"Yes, I was amazed that Fogel should start calling me a liar before I
could even answer. I hadn't realized that, in Fogel's McCathyite
worldview, rec.bicycles.tech is so largely populated by liars that
anyone saying the sun shines outside should first present a notarized
report from the weather bureau."

Quoted message said:

Pressed for the place, he came up with an obscure road.

Why, are only famous roads in America, personally approved by Carl
Fogel, good enough to be towed a miserable 100kph on?

Of course a road I can block off temporarily without attracting
official attention is obscure, you moron. Irish farm lanes aren't
labelled with names or numbers either. I had to identify this one by
names of fields on the Ordnance Survey map.

Quoted message said:

Gradually he developed a whole new story

This lie by Fogel is given the lie by the contrary claim that I
trolled Fogel by withholding the facts. If I selectively withheld the
facts, I wasn't "developing" a whole new story, I was just not telling
all of it.

Quoted message said:

involving a truck and
recording his speed "on a certified calibrated government approved
speedometer."

This is Fogel's provincial American ignorance dressed up as an
accusation of lying. Such speedometers are fitted to all longrange
trucks in Europe to ensure the drivers don't work more hours than
legally permitted, don't speed, and so on.

Quoted message said:

It's just as plausible as

Unlikehood is neither impossibility nor untruth.

Quoted message said:

his original story.

Another lie by Fogel. There is only one story. But Fogel accused me of
being a liar before I could tell it, so I withheld the crucial fact
while he made a fool of himself. Fogel has only his weak and vicious
character to blame for his embarrassment.

Quoted message said:

If encouraged, he'd
probably develop a long story about that amazing speedometer and why
he didn't mention the speed that it supposedly recorded.

Here Fogel looks into the future and tells you he knows what I will
say and in advance declares it a lie. No better example of Carl
Fogel's malice and dishonesty is likely to be found. Oh, and this,

Quoted message said:

he didn't mention the speed that it supposedly recorded.

is another lie by Fogel. I did mention the speed the truck speedometer
recorded, the release speed of 105kph.

Quoted message said:

His story wouldn't show any awareness that his "downhill, of course"
was nonsense--riders have been beating 60 mph while drafting on the
flats for over a century.

Once more Fogel looks into the future and claims to know what is in my
mind. This time he finds ignorance. No comment because none is
necessary.

Quoted message said:

It doesn't really matter whether Andre actually thinks that it's
necessary to add "downhill, of course" while not mentioning "behind a
truck," whether he really knows of a "certified calibrated government
approved speedometer," or whether he's just a compulsive Munchausen
who plans to keep changing his stories until they're believed--who's
going to believe his next implausible story?

In plain English: "I, Carl Fogel, will call Andre Jute a liar
regardless of what he says."

I might point out that what is plausible on Fogel's little street
corner is hardly a universal standard, nor cause for this scumbag
Fogel to call anyone a liar. But why bother? Fogel has already told us
that if I say, "The sun is shining," he will call me a liar.

Quoted message said:

He'll just claim that
everyone who doubted him was making foolish assumptions and should
have realized that he was drafting a truck downhill.

Again, Fogel claims to see into my mind and to know what I will say.
And again he declares in advance that whatever I say is a lie.

Quoted message said:

Or that the sun
was up, just in Thailand, not Ireland. Or whatever dodge he thinks
will keep people talking to him.

What did I just tell you!

Quoted message said:

If you met a fellow who told stories that way outside the internet,
you'd simply walk away from him

If I met a fellow who called me a liar before I even told the story,
which is what Fogel has done, I'd kick his butt over the houses to
teach him some manners.

Quoted message said:

and his explanations about how honest
he is.

This is a lie by Fogel. I don't need to explain how honest I am, nor
have I done so. Straightforward rationality will explain to all men of
goodwill how honest -- or otherwise -- I am.

Quoted message said:

I don't plan to feed the troll.

Run, rabbit, run.

Quoted message said:

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

You a simpering backstabber, Carl Fogel, and a liar, and a false
accuser. In short, you're scum.

Andre Jute
Zero tolerance for pompous little netfuhrers

Michael Press said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Andre Jute said:

If I met a fellow who called me a liar before I even told the story,
which is what Fogel has done, I'd kick his butt over the houses to
teach him some manners.

What kind of person immediately turns to violence
when his word is called into question.

What kind of jackass are you, Press, to think we will fall for this
dumb trick of yours which tries to persuade us that a figure of speech
is an actual physical threat?

This thread, and the three with it, and some remarks in "Chalo among
the fashion victims and other impressionables" are kicking Fuhrer
Fogel's slack butt over the houses. You're helping kick Fogel's slack
butt over the houses by arguing too much. (Are a you a lady?)

Quoted message said:

"Do not question what I say, else I will beat you
into submission."

Why, that's what you Krygo-Fogel Scum tried to do to me in the thread
"Chalo among the fashion victims and other impressionables", over a
hundred messages abusing me. Now that I'm striking back, one little
old intellectual against the whole gang of fit young bicycling
bullyboys, suddenly you're whining that it isn't a fair contest. [censored].
It'll only get fairer and fairer as the sharper little Krygo-Fogel
gangbangers break ranks and run. McNamara has already run.

Quoted message said:

Michael Press

A bully who cannot take what he likes handing out.

Andre Jute
98 pound weakling

In article <[email hidden]>, jim beam

Quoted message said:

Andre Jute wrote:
<snip [censored]>

are you related to this guy?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MI-5_Persecution

Amazing there's an opera based on that MI-5 malcontent! Should we
expect Jute's jive to inspire a musical? Forget about Hannibal at the
gates, Jute is taking Broadway!

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Andre Jute said:

Michael Press said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,
Andre Jute <[email hidden]> wrote:

I address myself to everyone. As a matter of fact Carl Fogel
never once said that Andre Jute lied or is a liar.

I am Andre Jute, the guy Carl Fogel called a liar. It seems pretty
clear to me that Fogel intended to call me a liar. The sequence, the
speed of Fogel's reaction before I could put any facts on the table,
the repetiion, all of it adds up to a single conclusion: the slimeball
Fogel called me a liar and he did it intentionally. Here's the story
in short dated takes:

Carl Fogel did not call you liar. If you think that I am in error,
you can quote the Message-ID of the message where he did so.

--
Michael Press

Michael Press said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Andre Jute said:

If I met a fellow who called me a liar before I even told the story,
which is what Fogel has done, I'd kick his butt over the houses to
teach him some manners.

What kind of person immediately turns to violence
when his word is called into question.

"Do not question what I say, else I will beat you
into submission."

Ed Pirerro.

"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The invention of non-words for insults, such as the example above, is
typically a juvenile activity.

You mean like AJ did a few posts back?

Beware of Enginerds Emeritii...

Andre Jute said:

liar
liar -snip-
liar -snip-
slimeball -snip-
little Krygo-Fogel gangbangers -snip-
uberfuhrer Fogel -snip-
little gangbangers -snip-
You're a liar and a hypocrite, Michael Press -snip-
You're as clumsy as Krygowski, so be careful you don't pull
your own [censored] off, Press.-snip-
Fogel's little acolytes -snip-
indictment of Carl Fogel and his gang for crimes against common
decency -snip-
Lying scum. A consorter of lying scum. A liar on behalf of lying scum -snip-
Fogel's McCathyite worldview-snip-
Another lie by Fogel-snip-
Fogel has only his weak and vicious character -snip-
Fogel's malice and dishonesty-snip-
another lie by Fogel-snip-
this scumbag Fogel-snip-
You a simpering backstabber, Carl Fogel, and a liar, and a false
accuser. In short, you're scum.
Andre Jute
Zero tolerance for pompous little netfuhrers

Could you please just type 'nazi'? We'll invoke Godwin and move on.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

A Muzi said:

Andre Jute said:

liar
 liar -snip-
liar  -snip-
slimeball -snip-
little Krygo-Fogel gangbangers  -snip-
uberfuhrer Fogel  -snip-
little gangbangers -snip-
You're a liar and a hypocrite, Michael Press -snip-
You're as clumsy as Krygowski, so be careful you don't pull
your own [censored] off, Press.-snip-
 Fogel's little acolytes -snip-
indictment of Carl Fogel and his gang for crimes against common
decency -snip-
Lying scum. A consorter of lying scum. A liar on behalf of lying scum -snip-
 Fogel's McCathyite worldview-snip-
Another lie by Fogel-snip-
Fogel has only his weak and vicious character -snip-
Fogel's malice and dishonesty-snip-
another lie by Fogel-snip-
this scumbag Fogel-snip-
You a simpering backstabber, Carl Fogel, and a liar, and a false
accuser. In short, you're scum.
Andre Jute
Zero tolerance for pompous little netfuhrers

Could you please just type 'nazi'? We'll invoke Godwin and move on.

AFAIK, "fuhrer" was and is a German word meaning "leader". It predates
Adolph's little band of whack jobs.

Michael Press said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Andre Jute said:

Michael Press said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,
 Andre Jute <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I address myself to everyone. As a matter of fact Carl Fogel
never once said that Andre Jute lied or is a liar.

Quoted message said:

I am Andre Jute, the guy Carl Fogel called a liar. It seems pretty
clear to me that Fogel intended to call me a liar. The sequence, the
speed of Fogel's reaction before I could put any facts on the table,
the repetiion, all of it adds up to a single conclusion: the slimeball
Fogel called me a liar and he did it intentionally. Here's the story
in short dated takes:

Carl Fogel did not call you liar. If you think that I am in error,
you can quote the Message-ID of the message where he did so.

--
Michael Press

I'm afraid repeitition won't make your lie true, Press. Nor will
cutting away the evidence I present and then demanding it all over
again, as you do here.

The indelible truth is that Fogel did call me a liar, he did it
deliberately, he did it repeatedly, when I faced with it he repeated
the offence, when offered a chance to 'fess up and apologize he
refused with the words "I won't." How the devil can we come to any
other conclusion than that Fogel is the enemy of fidelity.

Here, for your delectation, is a selection of the evidence, with
references to more evidence, an absolute Niagara of Fogel's guilt:

Michael Press said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,
Andre Jute <[email hidden]> wrote:
I address myself to everyone. As a matter of fact Carl Fogel
never once said that Andre Jute lied or is a liar.

I am Andre Jute, the guy Carl Fogel called a liar. It seems pretty
clear to me that Fogel intended to call me a liar. The sequence, the
speed of Fogel's reaction before I could put any facts on the table,
the repetiion, all of it adds up to a single conclusion: the
slimeball
Fogel called me a liar and he did it intentionally. Here's the story
in short dated takes:
****
Clive George Jan 23, 5.20pm:
"That's pretty fast - what hill?"
Andre Jute Jan 23, 5:42 pm:
"Not a famous hill. A tarmacadam farm lane."
Clive George Jan 23, 6:09 pm:
"Whereabouts is it?"
Carl Fogel Jan 23, 7:00 pm, less than an hour later calls me a liar
without waiting for my reply to Clive:
"I'm not surprised that you got no real answer beyond that vague
tarmacadam farm lane that only one farmer uses, continent
unspecified...etc"
Carl Fogel Jan 23, 7:43 pm, only an hour and a half after Clive asked
his question, and still without waiting for my reply, repeats the
accusation that I'm a liar:
"And I'd still be pleased to find that my skepticism is wrong and
that
there is a paved farm lane long enough and steep enough for that kind
of bike to do well over 100 kmh."
Fogel meanwhile sneers and jeers his way through the me-too posts of
his gang getting in their knocks. I don't know anything about all
this
for another 16 hours...
It is the next day before I answer Clive's question:
Andre Jute Jan 24, 12:03 pm:
Etc. At this point, where I'm just starting to put facts on the
table, the slimeball Fogel had already repeatedly called me a liar.
********
Here Michael Press continues:

Quoted message said:

It is rather surprising how quickly that the counter-claim
has been taken to be fact.

Especially among the little Krygo-Fogel gangbangers. One Michael
Press
for instance twice called me a liar. Hey, isn't it Michael Press
who's
saying here that Carl Fogel is innocent? Holy Moses, so it is. So
where did Press, who offered no facts, no argument, no rationale for
calling me a liar, where, oh where did Press get that "liar" from.
Why, he got it from his uberfuhrer Fogel.
The rest of the gang also piled in, of course, screeching "liar,
liar". That was when I looked like a victim, waiting for all the
little gangbangers to declare themselves so I could make a list. Now
that I have my list and am working down it, suddenly poor Carl Fogel
is much misunderstood.... And with him of course all the little
gangbangers will claim they didn't call me a liar, it is all a
misunderstanding. I don't think so.
You're a liar and a hypocrite, Michael Press.

Quoted message said:

I am as quick as anyone to understand the direction of
Carl Fogel's writing.

Only too damned right. That's why you stand on the record as calling
me a liar, because you "understood the direction of Carl Fogel's
writing". You're as clumsy as Krygowski, so be careful you don't pull
your own [censored] off, Press.

Quoted message said:

He implies that he does not believe
Andre Jute and presents evidence that everyone should accept
as being compelling _for_Carl_.

It's the form of Fogel's insinuation (notice how Press tries to sneak
a mere implication past us) and the timing and the number of those
insinuations that together add up to an accusation of lying. Anyway,
if it was all a mistake on Fogel's part, I gave him plenty of time
and
several opportunities to retract and apologise, and he told us
specifically, "I won't."
There is absolutely nothing left to conclude except that Fogel
deliberately and with malice aforethought called me a liar. Now he
can
either prove it or take the consequences. Fogel's little acolytes
like
Press begging for forgiveness or, worse, a fudge of
"misunderstanding"
cut no ice whatsoever.

Quoted message said:

Please, everyone, keep your facts straight.

We have our facts straight. They are in the four posts of my main
indictment of Carl Fogel and his gang for crimes against common
decency:
http://groups.google.ie/group/rec.bicycles.tech/browse_thread/thread/...
http://groups.google.ie/group/rec.bicycles.tech/browse_thread/thread/...
http://groups.google.ie/group/rec.bicycles.tech/browse_thread/thread/...
http://groups.google.ie/group/rec.bicycles.tech/browse_thread/thread/...

Quoted message said:

Michael Press

Lying scum. A consorter of lying scum. A liar on behalf of lying
scum.
Andre Jute
Pass up the black cap
Here is the original in this thread, including the false accuser
Fogel's refusal to retract and apologize, and several more
accusations
by Fogel:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Andre Jute said:

I deliberately delayed giving a full explanation, and several times
gave Fogel the tip that he made wrong assumptions, to give him time to
apologize. He didn't.

And he shouldn't.
- Frank Krygowski

Dear Frank,
I won't.
First Andre started off with the casual comment that he did well over
100 kmh "downhill, of course."

Of course one adds "downhill, of course". One doesn't want to claim
to
be as athletic as much more dedicated cyclists.

Quoted message said:

When several people pointed out the unlikelihood of that,

This is a lie by Fogel, attempting to confuse the timeline. Only one
person, Clive George, posted about it, and he merely asked for the
place. Nobody mentioned unlikelihood to me. Before I could reply,
Carl
Fogel several times called me a liar.

Quoted message said:

he whined

This is a lie by Fogel whose object is to confuse the timeline by a
whole day. Only *after* Fogel called me a liar several times did I
object.

Quoted message said:

that we might as well ask for proof that the sun came up.

This is a lie by Fogel. He tries to put words in my mouth that I
never
spoke and that are contrary to the ones I did speak:
"Yes, I was amazed that Fogel should start calling me a liar before I
could even answer. I hadn't realized that, in Fogel's McCathyite
worldview, rec.bicycles.tech is so largely populated by liars that
anyone saying the sun shines outside should first present a notarized
report from the weather bureau."

Quoted message said:

Pressed for the place, he came up with an obscure road.

Why, are only famous roads in America, personally approved by Carl
Fogel, good enough to be towed a miserable 100kph on?
Of course a road I can block off temporarily without attracting
official attention is obscure, you moron. Irish farm lanes aren't
labelled with names or numbers either. I had to identify this one by
names of fields on the Ordnance Survey map.

Quoted message said:

Gradually he developed a whole new story

This lie by Fogel is given the lie by the contrary claim that I
trolled Fogel by withholding the facts. If I selectively withheld the
facts, I wasn't "developing" a whole new story, I was just not
telling
all of it.

Quoted message said:

involving a truck and
recording his speed "on a certified calibrated government approved
speedometer."

This is Fogel's provincial American ignorance dressed up as an
accusation of lying. Such speedometers are fitted to all longrange
trucks in Europe to ensure the drivers don't work more hours than
legally permitted, don't speed, and so on.

Quoted message said:

It's just as plausible as

Unlikehood is neither impossibility nor untruth.

Quoted message said:

his original story.

Another lie by Fogel. There is only one story. But Fogel accused me
of
being a liar before I could tell it, so I withheld the crucial fact
while he made a fool of himself. Fogel has only his weak and vicious
character to blame for his embarrassment.

Quoted message said:

If encouraged, he'd
probably develop a long story about that amazing speedometer and why
he didn't mention the speed that it supposedly recorded.

Here Fogel looks into the future and tells you he knows what I will
say and in advance declares it a lie. No better example of Carl
Fogel's malice and dishonesty is likely to be found. Oh, and this,

Quoted message said:

he didn't mention the speed that it supposedly recorded.

is another lie by Fogel. I did mention the speed the truck
speedometer
recorded, the release speed of 105kph.

Quoted message said:

His story wouldn't show any awareness that his "downhill, of course"
was nonsense--riders have been beating 60 mph while drafting on the
flats for over a century.

Once more Fogel looks into the future and claims to know what is in
my
mind. This time he finds ignorance. No comment because none is
necessary.

Quoted message said:

It doesn't really matter whether Andre actually thinks that it's
necessary to add "downhill, of course" while not mentioning "behind a
truck," whether he really knows of a "certified calibrated government
approved speedometer," or whether he's just a compulsive Munchausen
who plans to keep changing his stories until they're believed--who's
going to believe his next implausible story?

In plain English: "I, Carl Fogel, will call Andre Jute a liar
regardless of what he says."
I might point out that what is plausible on Fogel's little street
corner is hardly a universal standard, nor cause for this scumbag
Fogel to call anyone a liar. But why bother? Fogel has already told
us
that if I say, "The sun is shining," he will call me a liar.

Quoted message said:

He'll just claim that
everyone who doubted him was making foolish assumptions and should
have realized that he was drafting a truck downhill.

Again, Fogel claims to see into my mind and to know what I will say.
And again he declares in advance that whatever I say is a lie.

Quoted message said:

Or that the sun
was up, just in Thailand, not Ireland. Or whatever dodge he thinks
will keep people talking to him.

What did I just tell you!

Quoted message said:

If you met a fellow who told stories that way outside the internet,
you'd simply walk away from him

If I met a fellow who called me a liar before I even told the story,
which is what Fogel has done, I'd kick his butt over the houses to
teach him some manners.

Quoted message said:

and his explanations about how honest
he is.

This is a lie by Fogel. I don't need to explain how honest I am, nor
have I done so. Straightforward rationality will explain to all men
of
goodwill how honest -- or otherwise -- I am.

Quoted message said:

I don't plan to feed the troll.

Run, rabbit, run.

Quoted message said:

Cheers,
Carl Fogel

You a simpering backstabber, Carl Fogel, and a liar, and a false
accuser. In short, you're scum.
Andre Jute
Zero tolerance for pompous little netfuhrers

A Muzi said:

Andre Jute said:

liar
 liar -snip-
liar  -snip-
slimeball -snip-
little Krygo-Fogel gangbangers  -snip-
uberfuhrer Fogel  -snip-
little gangbangers -snip-
You're a liar and a hypocrite, Michael Press -snip-
You're as clumsy as Krygowski, so be careful you don't pull
your own [censored] off, Press.-snip-
 Fogel's little acolytes -snip-
indictment of Carl Fogel and his gang for crimes against common
decency -snip-
Lying scum. A consorter of lying scum. A liar on behalf of lying scum -snip-
 Fogel's McCathyite worldview-snip-
Another lie by Fogel-snip-
Fogel has only his weak and vicious character -snip-
Fogel's malice and dishonesty-snip-
another lie by Fogel-snip-
this scumbag Fogel-snip-
You a simpering backstabber, Carl Fogel, and a liar, and a false
accuser. In short, you're scum.
Andre Jute
Zero tolerance for pompous little netfuhrers

Could you please just type 'nazi'?

Of course not. That would reduce me to their level. They make
unfounded accusations. I make a reasoned case on the evidence and then
present my conclusion, which you've extracted above.

Nor do I go around calling people Nazi just because someone else finds
it convenient shorthand. Do have a reason to believe that Fogel and
Krygowski are both nationalists and socialists? If so, you may of
course called them Nazis but I would still want to examine the
evidence for myself.

Are Lou Holtman and Tom Sherman and I the only people on this entire
newsgroup who believe in content over personalities?

Quoted message said:

We'll invoke Godwin and move on.

Don't tell me, just do it. For those not interested in abstracts like
truth and the right to free speech, there is nothing of substance in
these threads, merely necessary procedure to pour drain cleaner on
some stubborn toiletscale called Fogel and Krygowski.

Quoted message said:

--
Andrew Muziwww.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Andre Jute
Relentless rigour

Ozark Bicycle said:

A Muzi said:

Andre Jute said:

liar
liar -snip-
liar -snip-
slimeball -snip-
little Krygo-Fogel gangbangers -snip-
uberfuhrer Fogel -snip-
little gangbangers -snip-
You're a liar and a hypocrite, Michael Press -snip-
You're as clumsy as Krygowski, so be careful you don't pull
your own [censored] off, Press.-snip-
Fogel's little acolytes -snip-
indictment of Carl Fogel and his gang for crimes against common
decency -snip-
Lying scum. A consorter of lying scum. A liar on behalf of lying scum -snip-
Fogel's McCathyite worldview-snip-
Another lie by Fogel-snip-
Fogel has only his weak and vicious character -snip-
Fogel's malice and dishonesty-snip-
another lie by Fogel-snip-
this scumbag Fogel-snip-
You a simpering backstabber, Carl Fogel, and a liar, and a false
accuser. In short, you're scum.
Andre Jute
Zero tolerance for pompous little netfuhrers

Quoted message said:

Could you please just type 'nazi'? We'll invoke Godwin and move on.

AFAIK, "fuhrer" was and is a German word meaning "leader". It predates
Adolph's little band of whack jobs.

I believe the root meaning would be "the one that steers". Thus, Ralph
Kramden was a bus fuhrer!

Andre Jute wrote:
-snip roughly 270 lines such as:

Quoted message said:

You a simpering backstabber, Carl Fogel, and a liar, and a false
accuser. In short, you're scum.

Someone has to do it.

"Nazi"

Now, let's move on.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971