LINUX = Unicyclist

PhilS said:

*so far, I'm guessing I need these:
*

You *should* just need ONE file (2 if you count the md5sum file). It
will be this one:

KNOPPIX_V3.7-2004-12-08-EN.iso 698.99 MB

Quoted message said:

*
am I right?

I just download it onto a CD and reboot?
*

No, you will need to:
1. Download the .iso
2. CHECK the md5sum file to make sure you downloaded it correctly.
3. Burn the CD [AS AN .ISO IMAGE] If you are using EasyCDCreator (or
something like that) just "burn CD image."
4. Reboot the computer and do what it takes to get into the BIOS
5. Reset the BIOS to boot from the CDrom drive by default.
6. Reboot with the CD in the CDrom drive.

Additional comments:
I had the same problems downloading Knoppix also. I don't "get" the
mirrors thing either. At times, the Knoppix site would not redirect me
to a mirror (after accepting the terms of service). Also, when I
downloaded Knoppix 3.6 AND checked the md5sum, I could NOT boot the
resulting burned CD. My friend in Russia, had the same problem with 3.6.
I recommend Jollix because it has some cool features, it is easy to find
and download http://tinyurl.com/6qfjy , and it is based on Gentoo which
can be better than Debian "when the going gets tough." The only thing
that you must remember is to boot after entering "lang=us" Otherwise,
the entire environment will be in German! 🙂

Trust me when I say this is the easiest method to testdrive Linux. Once
you have that CD burned, you will have an "invulnerable" Linux system
that you can learn on.

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zod said:

*I run the MS OS's....... I really don't have time to mess with Linux
although I'd be interested in getting in depth with it. But I make my
living in a microsoft environment. *

Me too. Actually I make my living working with Windows, Linux, and MAC.
It just that Windows makes up 99% of our business so I have little time
(or need) to work with the others.

I do, as a matter of principle try to always have a least one computer
running some Linux distro (right now that happens to be SLES9).

-mg

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I use Linux as my primary desktop at work (and manage a number of Linux
servers). I also have a Windows laptop (Linux tends to suck on
laptops--so does Windows, but you have to futz with it less), and a Mac
G5 at home.

At this point, Linux on the desktop is useful for geeks only. Most
people don't have any interest in futzing around with computers just to
futz around with them; they want to use computers to accomplish a
particular task or set of tasks. There are virtually no tasks which the
average user will find easier to accomplish on Linux than on even
Windows, let alone Mac OS X.

This discussion is a good example; you shouldn't *need* to read anything
to install a basic operating system. If you have a reasonably
mainstream box, you should be able to go to a web page, click on
"download now", click on "install" (or perhaps "burn", reboot and
install), and have the OS figure out reasonable defaults for you. This
is not true with any Linux distribution; probably RedHat gets the
closest, but even that has funky stuff. I'm using a 5-year-old video
card, Matrox Millennium G200, and Fedora Core 3 detected it and my
monitor but chose an unsupported scan rate; I had to install in text
mode.

This is [censored]; even Windows manages better, and I hate Windows.

Until Linux puts some effort into user interface design (other than
making ugly-ass skins for Gnome/KDE) it will never be viable on the
desktop.

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tholub said:

*At this point, Linux on the desktop is useful for geeks only. Most
people don't have any interest in futzing around with computers just
to futz around with them; they want to use computers to accomplish a
particular task or set of tasks. There are virtually no tasks which
the average user will find easier to accomplish on Linux than on even
Windows, let alone Mac OS X. *

Incorrect. Very.
Suse is MUCH easier to install than Windows. The hardware detection is
better and there are less questions asked of the installer. Further,
once Suse is installed, things that DO NOT WORK in Windows will work in
Suse (for example smartmedia cards are detected without loading
drivers).

Windows is much tougher to install and maintain. Once installed,
numerous patches and drivers must be installed - everything from video
card drivers down to smartmedia. Even NIC cards.

After you get the system running, you must worry about viruses and
instability. I have lost more than one windows box to a .dll that gets
corrupted or simply disappears. I can't even begin to describe the
embarrasment I felt when I forwarded a virus to all of my fraternity
brothers internationally.

Windows doesn't offer much. With Linux, the installation can have
THOUSANDS of programs included for FREE. I installed hundreds of
programs in Suse while I slept (start the install before bed). With
Windows, the user must install CDburn software, DVD player, GUI ftp
client (or learn the tricky way to get WIndows Explorer to do the task),
as well as many other programs that are used daily. With Linux, even
peer to peer programs come already installed and configured.

Finally, you claim to be a Linux admin - but citing the above examples I
sincerely question your credibility. It isn't just a "difference of
opinion" here - you are regurgitating 1997 cliche's and seem wholly out
of touch with Linux in today's world. "Did you lose your other wheel?"
Perhaps you (like I) have had more experience repairing and maintaining
Windows and thus you take that knowledge and experience for granted.
Personally, I started counting the hours and comparing the two systems
objectively.

For starters, compare Jollix to Windows.
it is free
it can be aquired without leaving the house
it is easier to install
it comes with MORE programs
it has a smaller footprint than ANY version of Windows by HALF
it is virus PROOF - as in "impossible to hack read-only CDrom"
it can be reconfigured
it comes with tools to repair downed Windows boxes 🙂
it can be configured and used in a LAN environment
it will NOT spread viruses (great for corps and the home user)
repairing the system is never more than a reboot away

. . .I actually took the time to make sure you didn't post those
comments a few years ago. Get with the times!

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ChangingLINKS.com said:

*You claim to be a Linux admin - but citing the above examples I
sincerely question your credibility. It isn't just a "difference of
opinion" here - you are regurgitating 1997 cliche's and seem wholly
out of touch with Linux in today's world.*

Yeah TOM... You don't know ANYTHING about supporting users OR Linux
administration. You better hope that no one from the MOTHERSHIP is
reading this or you're out of a job buddy. 🙂 You'll end up here down
in SB with the real losers. On the other hand we've got alot of good
places to ride!

Give me a break changinglinks. Is this why I left Texas?

matt

user of gentoo linux and OS X because they just work.

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myocardial said:

*Give me a break changinglinks. Is this why I left Texas?

matt

user of gentoo linux and OS X because they just work. *

My point was that I had "doubt" that he was a true Linux admin because
his use of outdated cliches:

Along the same lines, I'd expect:
"Don't use Gentoo because you have to compile it from scratch: starting
with the kernel! Gentoo is only for supernerds!"

Please forgive me for doubting him . . .
. . and if that is all you got from my response, please stay out of
Texas! 🙂

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You guys are funny. I still maintain Linux is like unicycling. It's
sort of a huge pain in the butt and takes a lot of time to get good at
it, but it's *SO MUCH FUN!*

The two go hand in hand. We definitely debate distributions and style
just as much in unicycles.

And anyone who runs Suse, Redhat or Mandrake, doesn't know how to run
Debian or Gentoo. You guys pumping Knoppix and Jollix don't actually use
that for more than demo's and fixing stuff, right? Klaus has hacked
Knoppix pretty dang bad. debian-base is customized to the extent of
making apt often break. And he's totally fz0r3d /bin/init. Knoppix is
cool, but it's still a hack job.

Josie

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Josie wrote:

You guys are funny.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

We try 😄

The two go hand in hand. We definitely debate distributions and style
just as much in unicycles.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Not according to the poll, unfortunately 🙁

And anyone who runs Suse, Redhat or Mandrake, doesn't know how to run
Debian or Gentoo.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<ChangingLINKS shows expression defending Suse>

You guys pumping Knoppix and Jollix don't actually use that for more
than demo's and fixing stuff, right?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

No. I use a highly customized version fulltime. I don't run anything

else at this time. I like the stability, added security, and the fact
that I can't possibly wreck my box. Each time I create a new CD, I make
the OS better, and it is easy to upgrade without any crud (if the CD
works like I want I continue to use that version).

Klaus has hacked Knoppix pretty dang bad. debian-base is customized to
the extent of making apt often break. And he's totally fz0r3d /bin/init.
Knoppix is cool, but it's still a hack job.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have not run into these problems - in part because I have never run

a fully installed Debian (so I don't have any experience on "how it
was"😉 (I'm opposed to using "dist upgrade"-like systems on *any* OS - so
that particular problem doesn't affect me).

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I have been managing Unix systems since 1989. I've managed Dynix, IRIX,
HP/UX, Solaris, FreeBSD, and Linux. At my peak, before I moved into
management, I was managing 15 different installations involving over 500
machines. And I installed Fedora Core 3 just last week.

Suffice it to say, I know more about this topic than you do. And
really, I don't need any more evidence than reality to make my point; if
Linux was really superior from the user's perspective, and it's free,
why the heck does it have virtually no usage on desktops compared to
Windows?

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tholub said:

*At this point, Linux on the desktop is useful for geeks only. *

The entire office of my lawyers is using OpenOffice on Debian. And they
aint geeks.

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tholub said:

*I have been managing Unix systems since 1989. I've managed Dynix,
IRIX, HP/UX, Solaris, FreeBSD, and Linux. At my peak, before I moved
into management, I was managing 15 different installations involving
over 500 machines. And I installed Fedora Core 3 just last week.

Suffice it to say, I know more about this topic than you do. And
really, I don't need any more evidence than reality to make my point;
if Linux was really superior from the user's perspective, and it's
free, why the heck does it have virtually no usage on desktops
compared to Windows? *

You brag about your experience, but then undermine it by asking a
question that gives me the idea that you don't really have the
experience. Moreover, you make the claim that you know more about Linux
than I do - not knowing my experience at all - if you were local, I'd
quickly toss you a $1000 challenge.

Back on point:
Perhaps, I do not understand what you mean.

YOUR QUESTION:
"If Linux was really superior from the user's perspective, and it's
free, why the heck does it have virtually no usage on desktops compared
to Windows?"

For clarification, I must ask a question:
What (besides some 3D video games) can Windows do that Linux cannot do
on the desktop?

(Note: I think that Windows "leadership" in the desktop is due to their
marketing techniques (and possibly anti-trust tactics). People usually
do not select "the best product" with the most features, and highest
quality - they usually select "the best marketed product" or the most
widely used. Arguing that Linux is invalid because it is not CURRENTLY
in your friend's home isn't holding water).

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You can get Windows going very easy.
But keep it going isn't easy.

In general you will not get a unix desktop up that easy,
but once up it keeps going and going.

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RELIGION ARGUMENT!!! W007!

Ok, we have some very logical reasons about why inux has not achieved
the market share of Windows, which I shall try to address.

1) Linux is a Unix "workalike", it's not based on the Unix source code,
but the GNU utilities that comprise the OS with the Linux kernel are
designed to work the same wasy as their Unix counterparts.

2) Unix was not designed to be used by the average Joe, it was designed
for use by computer scientists, mathematicians, and so on. The original
Unix OS didn't even use a screen (we're talking late 1960's here
people!)

3) Linux was originaly developed for Computer Science people by Computer
Science people, back before Windows 95. We were used to typing in
commands back then, MS DOS anyone?

4) Since Linux has been primarily developed by tech people for tech
people, the target audience has been different. When you've installed
the whole OS from text mode without a GUI (Graphics User interface,
point & Click style) editing /etc/samba.smb.conf to get a shared drive
working.

5) By the time people got interested in making Linux user friendly,
Windows XP was just about out, furthering the stranglehold MS has on the
market. XP is much much better than its ancestors...

Normal people can use Linux... But it takes more effort to learn how to
do some things. My girlfriend uses my laptop quite often, and her only
complaint is that OpenOffice doesn't save her Word templates properly...
I just need to get her using OppenOffice on her Windows Box...

And I disagree about Linux on laptops, it runs perfectly on mine!
Windows Free on my laptop for over a year and a half now 😄

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leo said:

*You can get Windows going very easy.
But keep it going isn't easy.

In general you will not get a unix desktop up that easy,
but once up it keeps going and going. *

Suse Linux installs with more ease than Windows.
And, of course it keeps going and going.
Other versions of Linux are not easy to install.

New thought:
Most people don't install Windows anyway. They get it pre-installed when
they buy the computer. The same can be true for Linux. You can buy a box
from Dell with Linux installed, or go to Walmart (I think) and get a box
with Lindows installed. That's barring other installation solutions:
like, with Linux, there are "Installfests" where you can go meet a group
of Linux admins who will help you install Linux. In fact, I *just* took
someone from *this* list to such a meeting this past week. He got help
installing linux and apache.
Yet Another Thing Windows Won't Do (heretofore "YATWWD"😉:

Anyone ever heard of a Windows installfest?

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Oh yeah, for the record, my Gentoo server has been up for over 40 days
now... My gf's computer sometimes has to be rebooted 3 times a night 😉
Linux rocks!

Easiest Linux distro to install: Vector.
It's like:
Question 1) Do you want to install it?
Question 2) Is this the place wheyou want it installed?
Question 3) You want a GUI?

Nice and easy 🙂

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its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will
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evil-nick said:

*RELIGION ARGUMENT!!! W007!

Ok, we have some very logical reasons about why inux has not achieved
the market share of Windows, which I shall try to address. *

You listed very valid and logical points. My *guess* is that you haven't
been an admin "since 1989."

Shocking.

Either you are extremely gifted, or that one guy (who acts like he knows
everything) doesn't know what he's talking about. 🙂

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I've only been an "admin" since 1997 😉 I only administer 3 boxes, my
desktop (dual boots into Winblows for the *very* occasional game, and
basic video editing, it is usually running Gentoo), my Gentoo server,
which holds music, photos, occasional assignments, and large downloads
(Half-Life 2 demo, America's Army)... I can start a download from
school, and have it chug away without having to worry about keeping my
desktop on or whatever... And my Laptop (affectionately named
"TinyGod"😉 which also runs Gentoo.

For the record, I'm a failed Computer Information Systems student (no
degree), finishing my Computer Science minor this semester, and my
English Major in about 2 years. My killer-app is OpenOffice 😄

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obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and
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This is my last post on the subject:

I am not saying Linux is useless. As I noted, I use it for my desktop
box at work, and I refuse to install any Windows-based servers to do
anything except serve Windows files and Active Directory. (Yes, I know
it is possible to do those with samba, if you are both a samba geek and
an Active Directory geek; we have no one who is both).

But to claim that Linux is "better" than Windows in a way that is
meaningful to users is similar to claiming that unicycles are better
than bicycles. Sure, unicycles are fun; more fun for many things, less
fun for others (like going downhill). But the fact that there are 100
bicycles for every unicycle is not a historical accident; unicycles are
not as effective at accomplishing tasks (like getting from point A to
point B, or carrying stuff from point A to point B), and they're harder
to use.

I'm not telling anyone not to use Linux. As I noted above, I hate
Windows. But to claim that Linux is better than Windows for the average
user is to ignore the facts; average users overwhelmingly choose Windows
over Linux.

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ChangingLINKS.com said:

*Suse Linux installs with more ease than Windows.
And, of course it keeps going and going.
Other versions of Linux are not easy to install.*

That's why is made the clause "in general".
Yes Suse has been -to me- always the easiest install.
I think debian and Mandrake are OK to. In most installers it's just the
partitioning stage may be confusing to unexperienced users.

If you give hardware + a Suse CD to someone who've had a total
computerless life... I'm sure they have it up faster than Windows.

ChangingLINKS.com said:

*a box with Lindows installed.*

Lindows? That brandname became forbidden to use here in The Netherlands.
It happened just before that legendary case of Mike Row Soft's domain
mikerowsoft.com

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tholub said:

*serve Windows files and Active Directory.*

For the serving windows file part...
try UNIX services for Windows (free to download at microsoft.com).
You now can have good NFS mounts in windows.
I've used it to stream files (that were physicly on a FreeBSD server)
trough windowsmedia-server. (I'm not a Samba freak either).

And untill the next quicktime comes out nothing beats the quality
windows media streaming.

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