LINUX = Unicyclist

tholub said:

*This is my last post on the subject:
to claim that Linux is "better" than Windows in a way that is
meaningful to users is similar to claiming that unicycles are better
than bicycles.

But to claim that Linux is better than Windows for the average user is
to ignore the facts; average users overwhelmingly choose Windows over
Linux. *

Ah. There is the misunderstanding. My position was not that Linux was
"better" for the average user, but not "worse" than Windows.
My interpretation of what you wrote is that Windows is "better" for the
average user.

To say Windows is "better" than Linux is also wrong.
I cite the constant news announcements about Windows
vulnerabilities.
I cite the data loss due to instability.
I cite the "user error" problem (like when a user introduces a virus
to a LAN
I cite the fact that more viruses are written for Windows.

Of course these are all security issues - but the average user has to
deal with spyware and email viruses.

Overall, I would speculate that the two desktops come out even: the time
it takes to learn the extra stuff Linux can do is matched by the time
it takes to install drivers, maintain, and and avoid viruses on
Windows.

Finally:
Windows and Linux are NOT like bikes and unicycles.
Windows does not have an "extra wheel" that enables it to do things
that Linux cannot do - contrarily there are many things Linux can do
that Windows cannot:
The speed of Linux is like the ability to coast.
The stability of Linux is like having the second wheel.
The gears of Linux is like having a true mult-tasking system.
The handle bars of Linux is having more tools and control over the
system - all the way down to the source code.

Your position relies heavily market position of Windows. Yet, you have
omitted the logic with regard Mac. Macs are easier to use than Windows
(has anyone on this list *needed* to install a Mac OS?) but they are not
the market leader. Does that mean Windows was "better." As any Mac user
will tell you - that is far from the truth. Windows had better marketing
(and a better price - due to the cheaper hardware and other lower
costs).

Finally, I think that part of what "keeps Linux and unicycles from being
more popular" is the spread of false or outdated information - like what
has happened on this forum.

As long as people continue to say things like "you have to have special
abilities and smarts like me - 'a guy who admins Linux boxes since
1989'" and "Windows is better for the home user, you know, the dumb
masses" Linux growth will be unduly stifled.

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PhilS said:

*can someone please tell me which linux to get and how to get it?

I have an old computer on which I would like to run linux - w1ndows 98
right now, with a processor...... before pentium - something really
lame. I dunno about RAM. *

First, it might be better to get an older linux distro for your older
machine--be sure to check the system requirements--Linux is getting more
demanding on machines as they get more souped-up with RAM and hard drive
space. If your machine is older, especially if it has a pre-pentium, the
greatest Linux distro on the planet won't do much if oit requires a
powerful new machine.

I am currently using Mandrake 10. I love it! I never use windows any
more, especially if I go on line because to me, windows just seems like
one big virus-magnet.

A good way to pick up some different distros to check out would be Linux
magazines in your local magazine shop (or at Barnes and Nobel)
There are two excellent books out there--LINUX FOR NON_GEEKS (by
Rickford Grant) --it comes with a full edition of Fedora Core, which is
a consumer version of Red Hat Linux.

The other is MOVING TO LINUX (by Marcel Gagne) -- this one comes with a
copy of Knoppix, which is a CD that allows your computer to experience
Linux without actually writing to your Hard drive.

Another good way to get Linux is through Ebay. I got a full 6CD set of
SuSE Linux for five dollars! (People make copies and sell the
cds--perfectly legal, but with no customer support like you would get if
you purchased the distro from a computer store.)

Good luck!

The Penguin Rules!

Dogbowl

--
dogbowl - rides a 26", but dreams of a coker!

All I want out of life is to be able to ride the unicycle while smoking
a cigar at the same time. Is that too much to ask for?
www.dogbowl.com / www.eyeballplanet.com
I USE LINUX--I LIKE LINUX!!!!!!!!

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you Linux freaks 😄

I just did a'lil shopping around for drivers for my OEM stuff.

ATi has 'these ' (http://tinyurl.com/62j8x)

Nvidia has 'these ' (http://tinyurl.com/4h9tu)

Those cover the 'important' parts of my system.
But, it seems that they support 'different' Linux OS's.

Is the Nvidia Linux the same as the ATi Linux ...?
I don't think they are ...

This is one BIG reason Linux isn't mainstream.

Looks to me that one has to compile his own 'kernals' to get things
working ... And how many user know how to compile ..?

I didn't even bother to look to see if any of my other devices have
Linux drivers... It's just too daunting a task ...

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my will to live was stronger than my will to die. - iggy pop
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DigitalDave said:

*1. Is the Nvidia Linux the same as the ATi Linux ...?

2. Looks to me that one has to compile his own 'kernals' to get things
working ... And how many user know how to compile ..?

3. I didn't even bother to look to see if any of my other devices have
Linux drivers... It's just too daunting a task ... *

answer 1. "Most" Linux versions can be configured to run ATI or NVidia
cards.

answer 2. There are several ways to overcome this problem. Suse comes
with drivers for ATI cards that configures correctly during the
installation. NVidia is somewhat tougher to get working (but I believe
can be easily done in Gentoo and Debian based systems - moreso than
Redhat or rpm based systems). The reason for the confusion on this is
because NVidia kept their internal code secret while ATI released open
source drivers. After having trouble with NVidia over the years, I only
buy the ATI cards now - and everything just works.

answer 3. With Suse, you will NOT have to worry about drivers for the
other hardware. I'd bet $5 that the drivers for everything (other than
NVidia cards) will be correctly configured on installation.

Read other parts of this thread (just to understand that Linux is NOT
like Windows when it comes to installation). In the Windows world there
is a huge battle to find and correctly install drivers after the main
install. With most versions of Linux, the drivers are simply included
and the hardware is virtually transparent to the user.

Finally, A great way to test to see if you will be able to get all of
the hardware to run easily is simply to boot a Knoppix CD. You (like I)
will be amazed how everything gets detected and configured correctly in
about 30 seconds DURING BOOT.

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I'll give it a shot sometime....

BTW ,,, those Nvidia drivers are my motherboard drivers.
EI: Sound, Networking, Memory, AGP ,,,, etc ...

(not video card)

--
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'nf7-s ~ xp2400mobile'
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my will to live was stronger than my will to die. - iggy pop
that which does not kill me, makes me stronger. - friedrich nietzsche
1899

"this thread dosnt nead to be a bunch of contreversy" - MUNIFREAK

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DigitalDave said:

*I'll give it a shot sometime....

BTW ,,, those Nvidia drivers are my motherboard drivers.
EI: Sound, Networking, Memory, AGP ,,,, etc ...

(not video card) *

Oh. Well, then don't worry about it. The video cards *can* be tough to
get working, but the motherboard should be no problem. Again, to save
yourself some trouble simply test with a "Live CD" like Jollix, Knoppix
first. It's definately a quicker way to see a working Linux system.

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'Knoppix 3.7 125kps from Fla'
(ftp://ftp.cise.ufl.edu/pub/mirrors/knoppix/)

The best download rate I could find from Chicago

PS. I must have confused you ...

My VC is ATi (r9700pro)
My MB is Nvidia (NF2)

Click my Sig link

--
DigitalDave - Ðîgï†å||¥ ËñhÂÑ€èÐ

'nf7-s ~ xp2400mobile'
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my will to live was stronger than my will to die. - iggy pop
that which does not kill me, makes me stronger. - friedrich nietzsche
1899

"this thread dosnt nead to be a bunch of contreversy" - MUNIFREAK

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The ATI and NVidia drivers are only if you want to play games really...
I ran my desktop for months without installing the nvidia drivers,
'cause frankly I don't have time to play games.
Everything just works on both my desktop and laptop, with the exception
of my DVD drive on my desktop... But hey, it doesn't work in Windows
either! 😉
But I do get a longer battery life on my laptop with linux then I ever
did with Windows 😄

The thing that really cinched it for me was back in 1997... Windows on
my K6-300mhz machine kept locking up, no matter what I was doing. Linux
just kept chugging. 3 weeks later I found out my CPU fan had stopped
working. Linux just ran cooler 😄

--
evil-nick - Unicyclist, Linux Geek, & swell guy

Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total
obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and
through me. And when it has gone past, I will turn the inner eye to see
its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will
remain.

* Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear.

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Quoted message said:

4. Reboot the computer and do what it takes to get into the BIOS

How exactly do I get into the BIOS?

I booted and pressed del befor it completely booted and it gave me some
sort of "AMIBIOS" thing, but I could not find anything about booting
from the CD drive

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PhilS - )-O <<<<look at it sideways

U U UN U UNI U UN UNI UNIC U UN UNI UNICY U UN UNI UNIC UNICY UNICYL U
UN UNI UNIC UNICY UNICYL UNICYLE UNICYCLE UNICYL UNICY UNIC UNI UN U
UNICYCL UNICY UNIC UNI UN U UNICYC UNIC UNI UN U UNICY UNIC UNI UN U
UNIC UNI UN U UNI UN U UN U U
^^^-me (there is a patern to it)

my favorite element: Unununium - Uuu - atomic number 111

if I discover the element which has the atomic # 113, I will name it
"Unicylium", and it's symbol will be "Uni"
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PhilS said:

*How exactly do I get into the BIOS?

I booted and pressed del befor it completely booted and it gave me
some sort of "AMIBIOS" thing, but I could not find anything about
booting from the CD drive *

Keep looking around in there. I doubt you have a computer that cannot
boot to CDrom (it's not very old is it?). On my machines, it will say
"boot order" and I can specify that it look first at the CDrom and then
the HD.
Another possibility is your hardware could be proprietary (like Compaq
box) where they totally control the BIOS - and don't offer many things
for options. What is the computer?

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Gahhh !

I just wrote a bad CD-R. The only CD-R I had that had 700mb.
I've only 'burned' one other CD ever, and it took several tries to get
it right (CD-RW). I dunno when I'll be buying anymore CD to
'burn/throw away'. 🙁

--
DigitalDave - Ðîgï†å||¥ ËñhÂÑ€èÐ

'nf7-s ~ xp2400mobile'
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my will to live was stronger than my will to die. - iggy pop
that which does not kill me, makes me stronger. - friedrich nietzsche
1899

"this thread dosnt nead to be a bunch of contreversy" - MUNIFREAK

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Quoted message said:

I bet that the time it took you to find/install another OS, would be
much greater than checking in the box and replacing a fan.

But, you would have never have tried Linux 😄

I had actually tried reinstalling Windows... but the installer also
crashed... The only thing that wouldn't crash the computer was
Winamp... It would play Mp3's for hours, and I still don't know why
🙂
I also already had linux installed... I used it 'cause I only had
access to a 16bit version of Borland C++, and I had a nasty habit of
blue-screening Windows 95 when I made a mistake in my code. When you
blue-screen 10 times trying to find a bug, yer talking 15 to 20 minutes
maybe rebooting...

The same program in Linux would say "Segmentation fault" and not crash
the computer. I had been fiddling with linux for a bit, and that saved
time was what made me start using it for work... The dead CPU fan just
made me use it for everything 😉

For a couple years after that I flip-flopped back and forth a lot, then
a couple years ago I got my laptop back from a warranty fix, and was
going to the Ottawa Linux Symposium, so I installed Linux on it. I was
gonna put Windows back on it before school, but never got around to
it... I figured it wasn't a good use of resources to use half of a
20Gig drive to install Windows just so I could play Counter-Strike 😄

--
evil-nick - Unicyclist, Linux Geek, & swell guy

Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total
obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and
through me. And when it has gone past, I will turn the inner eye to see
its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will
remain.

* Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear.

My gallery:
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When the guys at the frat started asking me for Linux help, I realized
Nerdageddon had begun 😄

I am a geek. I'm also an English Major. I also work in a garage. I
also have a hot blonde girlfriend. Why is this all mutually exclusive?

--
evil-nick - Unicyclist, Linux Geek, & swell guy

Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total
obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and
through me. And when it has gone past, I will turn the inner eye to see
its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will
remain.

* Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear.

My gallery:
http://evil.linuxfreak.ca/uni.html
Our Club:
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The flaming has produced more posts than the original poll. I am
wondering when we are going to get told to shut up, or if Gilby will
just split this into a new post and move all the recent posts to JC.

Anyways, to add some oxidation, there is such a thing an old school
admis. Unix is often a much larger pain. It's things like the arguments
being non-uniform, devfs, and having to know a lot more to maintain it
that make Unix taste different than Linux. Coming from 15 years of
Unix, and obviously treating Linux like a Unix are going to jilt
anyone's perspective. That guy sounds old (and like he's egging us
on).

Take a few thousand hours. Learn to use every distro to completely
configure your hardware (and all your friends'😉 and all the common linux
software with out reading the doc's anymore. Decide you hate computers,
and every OS. Then you will find there are only two things that don't
[censored] you off. Gentoo and Debain. It's the way the nerd cycle goes.
(Unless your senile like Mr. KnowsMoreThanMe...)

Josie

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Mostly WinXP Pro, I can't use Linux very well but I've been learning for
the past week or so. I know more about WinXP than my tech support
teacher at school, it's sad how I've never taken a class yet I know more
than him. I have some social skills seeing how I've had girlfriends
before and have plenty of friends at school, but I've been called a
loner before.

--
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good news and bad news:

good news: I figured out all the BIOS stuff

bad news:It only lest me choose between booting from the floppy drive
and the hard drive.

oh well, I'll just have to convince my dad to get linux on this computer
- a p4, 264 ram, 80gbs of room...with xp on it......... what a waste of
good equipment being used by w1ndows

I'm in ottawa... mabey I'll go to one of those linux events evil nick
keeps talking about.

--
PhilS - )-O <<<<look at it sideways

U U UN U UNI U UN UNI UNIC U UN UNI UNICY U UN UNI UNIC UNICY UNICYL U
UN UNI UNIC UNICY UNICYL UNICYLE UNICYCLE UNICYL UNICY UNIC UNI UN U
UNICYCL UNICY UNIC UNI UN U UNICYC UNIC UNI UN U UNICY UNIC UNI UN U
UNIC UNI UN U UNI UN U UN U U
^^^-me (there is a patern to it)

my favorite element: Unununium - Uuu - atomic number 111

if I discover the element which has the atomic # 113, I will name it
"Unicylium", and it's symbol will be "Uni"
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Ottawa has a Linux Users Group...
http://oclug.on.ca/
Someone there can prolly help you 🙂

--
evil-nick - Unicyclist, Linux Geek, & swell guy

Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total
obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and
through me. And when it has gone past, I will turn the inner eye to see
its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will
remain.

* Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear.

My gallery:
http://evil.linuxfreak.ca/uni.html
Our Club:
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awesome

thanks

--
PhilS - )-O <<<<look at it sideways

U U UN U UNI U UN UNI UNIC U UN UNI UNICY U UN UNI UNIC UNICY UNICYL U
UN UNI UNIC UNICY UNICYL UNICYLE UNICYCLE UNICYL UNICY UNIC UNI UN U
UNICYCL UNICY UNIC UNI UN U UNICYC UNIC UNI UN U UNICY UNIC UNI UN U
UNIC UNI UN U UNI UN U UN U U
^^^-me (there is a patern to it)

my favorite element: Unununium - Uuu - atomic number 111

if I discover the element which has the atomic # 113, I will name it
"Unicylium", and it's symbol will be "Uni"
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PhilS said:

^^^-me (there is a patern to it)

Yes but I noted some irregularities which I doubt are intentional.

Quoted message said:

"Unicylium", and it's symbol will be "Uni"

Don't you mean Unicyclium? That's similar to one of the issues in your
"patern".

Klaas Bil - Newsgroup Addict
--
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