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Lost at Night

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
15 January 2004
Last activity
16 January 2004
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C L Imber
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  1. Quoted message said:

    GPSs frequently fail

    My experience is that GPSs are extremely reliable and most unlikely to fail.

    Quoted message said:

    and it's important to be able to extract yourself from a situation without reliance on modern
    navigational aids. Why else do you suppose the teacher's union thought he got off lightly with
    only one year of incarceration. The ML course is designed to minimise the risk to children by
    being taken out by untrained mavericks, and if that means that the trainees have to be exposed to
    some risk, so be it.

    I think you are missing the point : if you (or someone) had taken a GPS then there would have been
    no need for anyone to be exposed to risk. You could still have had your "learning experience" but
    there is no reason why the instructor should not take a GPS so s/he can retrieve the situation if it
    all goes tu.

    --
    Boo

  2. circe said:

    I am yet to decide one way or the other if a GPS/mobile should be a 'mandatory' item of kit.

    Well unless I'm missing something, the only downside is the price and weight ? Theyy may not be
    totally necessary for every walker, but istm if you are leading other people in the hills then they
    are currently so cheap and light as to make it silly not to take one.

    --
    Boo

  3. Trevor Eves said:

    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    Why the f*** didn't somebody have a GPS? OK so they may be against "the


    rules"

    Quoted message said:

    but they work, will give a fix in a matter of minutes from cold and if


    even the

    Quoted message said:

    instructor is lost surely it is OK to use one?

    These days anybody not taking a GPS is likely to fall into the same


    litigious

    Quoted message said:

    minefield as anybody not taking a mobile phone when they take a group onto


    the

    Quoted message said:

    hills.

    Bollocks:-(

    A nice comment I'm sure. Would you care to enlighten us with any other words of wisdom?

    Are you the same Trevor Eves who said in uk.rec.motorcycles "I'm a [censored]." ?
    --
    Phil Cook looking north over the park to the "Westminster Gasworks"

  4. In message <[email hidden]>

    Paul Saunders said:
    C L Imber said:

    Not even a whiff of a GPS or mobile phone.

    So because the traditionalists are obstinately stuck in their luddite ways, you take that as proof
    that those items are unnecessary?

    They are unnecessary. After all, people managed quite happily without them. The only things that are
    necessary are your legs. That doesn't mean they aren't useful, though (not that I would bother
    spending money on either).

    --
    Simon Challands, creator of The Acorn Elite Pages: elite.acornarcade.comelite.acornarcade.com Three Dimensional
    Encounters: 3dfrontier.fsnet.co.uk3dfrontier.fsnet.co.uk

  5. In message <[email hidden]>

    C L Imber said:
    Paul Saunders said:

    Don't get me wrong, it's undoubtedly a very sensible list, but I've done the whole "carrying half
    a ton of kit just in case" scenario and it's often overkill. That list of kit would help me
    survive in the middle of winter! :-)

    And what about the survival of the group for which you are responsible?

    They should have responsibility for themselves IMO. It's the leader's responsibility to make sure
    they don't all end up completely lost, or in technical situations they can't be expected to cope
    with, or dead from exhaustion, but that's as far as it should go (although this isn't the case with
    young children).

    --
    Simon Challands, creator of The Acorn Elite Pages: elite.acornarcade.comelite.acornarcade.com Three Dimensional
    Encounters: 3dfrontier.fsnet.co.uk3dfrontier.fsnet.co.uk

  6. In [email hidden]
    C L Imber mused:

    Quoted message said:

    She was as lost as the rest of us were.

    Did she tell you that? Instructors are allowed to have their 'bit of fun' with some light leg-
    pulling - makes it all the more 'realistic'.

  7. On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 13:44:23 +0000, C L Imber
    <[email hidden]> wrote:

    <snip>

    Quoted message said:


    At the time I kicked myself for not taking my GPS. On balance I am glad I didn't. Had we used the
    GPS to determine our location a valuable learning experience would have been lost. Perhaps it is
    for the instructor, not the student to carry a GPS - but I choose not to critisise our instructor.
    I have too much respect for her.

    So why did you kick yourself at the time ... self preservation ? It seems no-one can convince you
    that you *should) have took it, even if you didn't actually use it.

    Quoted message said:

    To use a GPS in a post mortem would have been very valuable. However, the GPS would have come
    out of the bag way too early to pinpoint our location so once again the experience would have
    been lost.

    Again, why ? You didn't have to use it unless absolutely necessary.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Lets look at one scenario you might not realise. You have admitted your lost, ther fore you dont
    know where you are. If one of you had had an accident.I doubt that you could have gone to get help
    & even tell the Rescue Team where to go and I doubt that between you, you couldn't have given the
    casualty any comfort and help.

    Had someone had a serious accident - e.g. a broken leg the whole complexion of the experience would
    have changed. It is a hypothetical situation, but this is how I'd have handled the situation if I
    was the instructor.

    #1 Given what first aid I could to the victim 2 Stuff the victim into a survival bag with the
    #second strongest team
    member
    #3 With the fourth party member, follow the stream off the hill to the
    river and then to the road to the West

    We may not have known our precise location, but we did know the vicinity. We also knew which river
    all the local streams flowed to.

    BUT !!! You could of given them the PRECISE location !

    A GPS weighs next to nothing. I personaly can't beleive your instructor wasn't carrying one. In this
    case you were lucky. Ot could of made all the dfference. Please give the name of the company who
    runs the course, so I can avoid them ;-)

    All IMHO, Mike.
    --

    Email address spamtrapped.
    Remove "your clothes" to reply.

  8. In message <[email hidden]>

    C L Imber said:
    Simon Challands said:
    Quoted message said:

    And what about the survival of the group for which you are responsible?

    They should have responsibility for themselves IMO. It's the leader's responsibility to make sure
    they don't all end up completely lost, or in technical situations they can't be expected to cope
    with, or dead from exhaustion, but that's as far as it should go (although this isn't the case
    with young children).

    I'm glad you put in that last bit. I'm a teacher, I have a duty of care towards those I teach.

    It's fairly obvious (I hope!) that it should be there, since it's the difference between a bunch of
    kids and a bunch of adults who can be expected to be able to take care of themselves (I appreciate
    that there are exceptions to that, too). If the adults in question have never walked further than
    the bus stop in their lives then they should be given advice, certainly, but how they act on it is
    their own business. Ditto if obvious advice isn't given - it shouldn't have to be (if it's pouring
    with rain then waterproofs are pretty obvious, although I'd usually opt for the stay indoors
    approach then).

    --
    Simon Challands, creator of The Acorn Elite Pages: elite.acornarcade.comelite.acornarcade.com Three Dimensional
    Encounters: 3dfrontier.fsnet.co.uk3dfrontier.fsnet.co.uk

  9. Andy Harbach said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Our camp was at SH 6494 4752. Rain was heavy and visibility very poor as we were in the cloud.

    If this was a training course then I question the judgement of even starting out with a group of
    novices in such conditions. You need to get experience in good conditions before you embark on
    more adventorous activities.

    <SNIP>

    One thing that may not be clear is that the original poster is talking about ML training. From my
    understanding this does not imply that the group were novices. They should all have had significant
    (logged) previous hill walking experience in summer conditions (summer being where there is no snow
    or ice on the ground) and were attending to re-inforce this experience and to learn group
    leadership skills.

    Please correct me if I am wrong.

    Absolutely correct:

    "To register you *should* have at least twelve months experience of hill walking. You *must* also
    have an interest in leadership of groups and be at least eighteen years of age."

    "In order to attend a training course you *must* be registered with the ML scheme and have
    experienced at least twenty quality mountain days."

    A quality mountain day is further defined, as are the mountainous regions of the British Isles.

    A summary of the definitions follows:

    Mountainous regions: Highlands and Islands of Scotland, Peak District, Black Mountains, Brecon
    Beacons, Dartmoor, Cheviots, Lake District, North and Mid Wales, North York Moors, Pennines - plus
    the mountains of Ireland (North and South).

    Quality mountain days: varied conditions, 5 hours or more, usually including a substantial summit,
    planning and leadership.

  10. In message <[email hidden]>

    C L Imber said:
    Simon Challands said:

    It's fairly obvious (I hope!) that it should be there, since it's the difference between a bunch
    of kids and a bunch of adults who can be expected to be able to take care of themselves (I
    appreciate that there are exceptions to that, too). If the adults in question have never walked
    further than the bus stop in their lives then they should be given advice, certainly, but how
    they act on it is their own business. Ditto if obvious advice isn't given - it shouldn't have to
    be (if it's pouring with rain then waterproofs are pretty obvious, although I'd usually opt for
    the stay indoors approach then).

    A group leader still has a responsibility to those they lead.

    So people seem to think so, because people seem to refuse the idea that they should be responsible
    for themselves these days. The leader's responsibility should be no more than not getting everyone
    lost. If the leader suggests everyone do something stupid they should have the common sense to tell
    him where to go. IMO a group leader should be no more than a guide, but people seem to expect them
    to be the equivalent of some sort of military commander.

    --
    Simon Challands, creator of The Acorn Elite Pages: elite.acornarcade.comelite.acornarcade.com Three Dimensional
    Encounters: 3dfrontier.fsnet.co.uk3dfrontier.fsnet.co.uk

  11. In message <[email hidden]>

    Paul Saunders said:
    Simon Challands said:

    Ditto if obvious advice isn't given - it shouldn't have to be (if it's pouring with rain then
    waterproofs are pretty obvious,

    On occasion I've been up mountains when it started to rain and to my amazement my companions
    expressed surprise and announced that they didn't bring any waterproofs with them. I won't mention
    names...

    Surprisingly easily done, considering how changeable the weather can be (hence "if it's pouring down
    with rain", to make it obvious from the outset). There are days when it's pretty safe not to bother
    taking water- proofs, but they are infrequent in the UK.

    What's even worse are the days when you've taken waterproofs, only to find that they have ceased to
    be waterproof...

    --
    Simon Challands, creator of The Acorn Elite Pages: elite.acornarcade.comelite.acornarcade.com Three Dimensional
    Encounters: 3dfrontier.fsnet.co.uk3dfrontier.fsnet.co.uk

  12. In message <[email hidden]>

    Paul Saunders said:
    Simon Challands said:

    They are unnecessary. After all, people managed quite happily without them.

    Oh, so we're going to start this argument again, are we? People always managed quite happily
    without cars too, so let's not bother with those either. Same with computers, television,
    internet etc.

    Read the rest of the post, you're trying to separate out the context. TV and radio introduced
    something new (and I could manage without the TV, but would miss the radio), and the changes in
    society have made a car awkward to do without. Walking is still the same activity, and done as an
    end in itself instead of as a means to an end, which is what a car is.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The only things that are necessary are your legs.

    No they're not, not if you sit still all day and someone brings you your food.

    I was talking about for going walking.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    That doesn't mean they aren't useful, though (not that I would bother spending money on either).

    I know a lot of people who used to insist that they'd never buy a computer and had no use for the
    internet. Now look at them...

    So? I never said a GPS wasn't any use, just that it's not necessary. Every- one here should be able
    to be perfectly well off without one, but that doesn't imply at all that it's not useful and doesn't
    make life a lot easier in some situations. Personally I very rarely even make use of a compass
    (different sitatuations to what this thread is about, admittedly, because I don't go out on the
    fells at night), so I would've thought it very unlikely that a GPS would be of any use to me.

    --
    Simon Challands, creator of The Acorn Elite Pages: elite.acornarcade.comelite.acornarcade.com Three Dimensional
    Encounters: 3dfrontier.fsnet.co.uk3dfrontier.fsnet.co.uk

  13. I am very grateful that the original posting was made, it has prompted a lively and interesting
    debate, kick starting this discussion group back to life. There have been diverse views as one would
    expect from a cross section of the population. If we all thought the same, we'd all head for the
    same hill and never experience 'wilderness'. I'm not a mountain leader and not qualified to preach,
    but from the original posting, it is clear that as a group, you were ill-prepared for a mishap which
    came close on two occasions.

    #1. Your fall into the stream. That could easily have been a
    leg-breaker with an enforced stop in a survival bag. At that point you were still 'lost', help would
    have undoubtedly been eventually summoned, but it would have taken the messenger wasted time to get
    orientated to find a way to civilisation. If the injury had been critical, such as a fractured femur
    leading to possible shock and/or severed femoral artery, then time is of the essence.

    #2. Your concerns over your leader possibly being at the early stages
    of hypothermia. A person in that condition will likely answer that they are 'OK', because one of the
    symptoms is the body's 'shutting down' to preserve heat leads to lessening of brain activity and
    they do not realise that they are not 'OK'. I am sure that you took that on board and monitored her
    for the rest of the walk, and she was not in any imminent danger. BUT - what if she had
    deteriorated? That condition would have been caused by walking about in soaking weather (and
    probably clothes). Deciding to continue walking about in exactly the conditions that brought about
    the hypothermia certainly would'nt make it better. She would have had to be placed in a survival
    bag, out of the rain and wind, where a 'micro-climate' that is warmer than the outside can be
    induced. Yes, she would have had a cold [censored], but the hypothermia would have already closed down the
    blood vessels in that area, so she would not have sufferered significant heat loss in that
    direction.

    Once again, time is of the essence in summoning help. A GPS would precisely fix the point at which
    the casualty is laid up. It will help the messenger to quickly navigate to civilisation. The GPS
    could be handed directly to the Rescue Party and save them huge amounts of time and effort by
    leading them straight back to the casualty.

    The merits of GPS etc have been fully discussed, and the fact is that as one was available to your
    party, it should have been taken. From a litigation point of view, had a death or serious injury
    resulted from an avoidable delay in getting help, then the body running the course would most
    definately have been liable for neglecting to take out safety measures available to them.

    One other thing concerns me, and that is the lack of respect shown to the party leader. Were I that
    person, I would expect members to take with them equipment that I prescribe. There is nothing worse
    than trying to tell 'been there, dunnits' what to do. It was a formal course, and whether you do
    actually know better or not, you should have complied with the leader's instruction to take packs.
    She probably should have put her foot down and refused to leave until the party were in compliance,
    but it was obviously a steep learning curve for several in the party.

    The second and potentially more dangerous lack of respect shown was deliberately choosing not to
    inform the leader of your fall and immersion in water. Yes, you may have felt foolish, but the
    leader needs to be aware of any factors that could have an impact on planning for the rest of
    that exercise.

    Besides that, it seems to have been a worthwhile exercise and experience. I am actually quite
    envious, but try not to let it show. We all learn best from mistakes in life (preferably other
    people's). I am sure you will be a better and wiser Mountain Leader if you take on board the lessons
    that need to be learned from the situation.

    I have probably lined myself up for a reply incorporating some glorious invective, including the
    dubious labels 'ass' and even worse 'assiness'. Oh my God, will I be able to show my face in
    public again?

    Steve Jones.

  14. Paul Saunders said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    These days anybody not taking a GPS is likely to fall into the same litigious minefield as
    anybody not taking a mobile phone when they take a group onto the hills.

    Absolute [censored] - and to even write such nonsense makes you an ass.

    I'm guessing that was largely a tongue-in-cheek statement from Phil, more a comment on the blame-
    obsessed society in which we live than a realistic assessment of the legal situation. But then
    again, you never know, many a true word is said in jest. If any serious consequences had occurred,
    the decision to avoid taking such a useful item, especially when you had one available, could be
    construed as recklessness.

    I was bearing in mind the fact that society is becoming more and more litigious as time passes. Who
    knows what will happen in a court of law when Mummy and Daddy get the best lawyer they can buy to
    find out why their little dear came to an early end?
    --
    Phil Cook looking north over the park to the "Westminster Gasworks"

  15. Fran said:

    [email hidden] said...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    If you had done that course before this trip it might have been useful. Seems like your
    instructor had a mild case.

    Your diagnosis is further evidence of your assiness.


    Sorry, but it's not Phil who's the idiot here. It seems pretty obvious that your instructor was
    chilled, and in need of help. What on earth was she thinking of, allowing herself to be dictated to
    by a trainee? I can't help feeling that someone, somewhere, might just be in the wrong job.

    Given that she was unaware that one of her party had fallen into deep water, I'd agree with that!

    --
    Paul My Lake District walking site (updated 29th September 2003): paulrooney.netfirms.compaulrooney.netfirms.com 114
    Wainwrights

    Please sponsor me for the London Marathon at: justgiving.comlondon2004

  16. On Sun, 2 Nov 2003 14:30:30 -0000, "Bootlaces" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    In [email hidden] C L Imber mused:

    Quoted message said:

    She was as lost as the rest of us were.

    Did she tell you that? Instructors are allowed to have their 'bit of fun' with some light leg-
    pulling - makes it all the more 'realistic'.

    Believe me - the ear bashing her sister gave her on our return to camp convinces me that she was as
    lost as the rest of us.

  17. Mike Hill said:

    On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 13:44:23 +0000, C L Imber <[email hidden]> wrote:


    <snip>

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    A GPS weighs next to nothing. I personaly can't beleive your instructor wasn't carrying one. In
    this case you were lucky. Ot could of made all the dfference. Please give the name of the company
    who runs the course, so I can avoid them ;-)

    All IMHO, Mike.


    Spill chucker packed up again ;-)
    --

    Email address spamtrapped.
    Remove "your clothes" to reply.

  18. Mike Hill said:

    On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 13:44:23 +0000, C L Imber <[email hidden]> wrote:

    <snip>

    Quoted message said:


    At the time I kicked myself for not taking my GPS. On balance I am glad I didn't. Had we used the
    GPS to determine our location a valuable learning experience would have been lost. Perhaps it is
    for the instructor, not the student to carry a GPS - but I choose not to critisise our instructor.
    I have too much respect for her.

    So why did you kick yourself at the time ... self preservation ? It seems no-one can convince you
    that you *should) have took it, even if you didn't actually use it.

    Maybe I should have taken it - but looking back on the experience and what I learned, I'm
    glad I didn't.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    To use a GPS in a post mortem would have been very valuable. However, the GPS would have come
    out of the bag way too early to pinpoint our location so once again the experience would have
    been lost.

    Again, why ? You didn't have to use it unless absolutely necessary.

    We'd have felt it absolutely necessary.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Lets look at one scenario you might not realise. You have admitted your lost, ther fore you dont
    know where you are. If one of you had had an accident.I doubt that you could have gone to get
    help & even tell the Rescue Team where to go and I doubt that between you, you couldn't have
    given the casualty any comfort and help.

    Had someone had a serious accident - e.g. a broken leg the whole complexion of the experience
    would have changed. It is a hypothetical situation, but this is how I'd have handled the situation
    if I was the instructor.

    #1 Given what first aid I could to the victim 2 Stuff the victim into a survival bag with the
    #second strongest team
    member
    #3 With the fourth party member, follow the stream off the hill to the
    river and then to the road to the West

    We may not have known our precise location, but we did know the vicinity. We also knew which river
    all the local streams flowed to.

    BUT !!! You could of given them the PRECISE location !

    It's still a highly hypothetical situation.

    Quoted message said:

    A GPS weighs next to nothing. I personaly can't beleive your instructor wasn't carrying one. In
    this case you were lucky. Ot could of made all the dfference. Please give the name of the company
    who runs the course, so I can avoid them ;-)

    No. It was an excellent course, and I learnt a great deal.

  19. [email hidden] said...

    Quoted message said:
    Andy Harbach said:
    Quoted message said:

    >Our camp was at SH 6494 4752. Rain was heavy and visibility very poor as we were in the cloud.

    If this was a training course then I question the judgement of even starting out with a group
    of novices in such conditions. You need to get experience in good conditions before you embark
    on more adventorous activities.

    <SNIP>

    One thing that may not be clear is that the original poster is talking about ML training. From my
    understanding this does not imply that the group were novices. They should all have had
    significant (logged) previous hill walking experience in summer conditions (summer being where
    there is no snow or ice on the ground) and were attending to re-inforce this experience and to
    learn group leadership skills.

    Please correct me if I am wrong.

    Absolutely correct:

    "To register you *should* have at least twelve months experience of hill walking. You *must* also
    have an interest in leadership of groups and be at least eighteen years of age."

    "In order to attend a training course you *must* be registered with the ML scheme and have
    experienced at least twenty quality mountain days."

    A quality mountain day is further defined, as are the mountainous regions of the British Isles.

    A summary of the definitions follows:

    Mountainous regions: Highlands and Islands of Scotland, Peak District, Black Mountains, Brecon
    Beacons, Dartmoor, Cheviots, Lake District, North and Mid Wales, North York Moors, Pennines - plus
    the mountains of Ireland (North and South).

    Quality mountain days: varied conditions, 5 hours or more, usually including a substantial summit,
    planning and leadership.


    Rather worryingly, that could just about include me. What a good job - for everyone's sake - that I
    have no such ambition.
    --
    Fran If you need my email address please ask.

  20. The message <[email hidden]>
    from C L Imber <[email hidden]> contains these words:

    Quoted message said:

    Quality mountain days: varied conditions, 5 hours or more, usually including a substantial summit,
    planning and leadership.

    Hmm. So if you go out on your own then it dosn't count. (No leadership possible without
    anyone to lead).

    --
    Roger Looking North over the Aire Valley (and Marley Gasworks) to Rombolds Moor Top Posters
    killfiled on sight

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