Lowa Boots

Ted said:

The shop I bought them frtom is insisting on testing them before they
refund me, the test is placing the boots is water for 24 hours, pity I
proofed them after the walk!

Any rub-in treatment you apply to the outside of leather will help keep
water out but it won't fully proof them. It certainly can't be relied
upon to keep water out under pressure for 24 hours.

I think their test is fair, and should give you a proper answer to
whether the membrane is leaking.

Quoted message said:

I forgot they were gore-tex lined and this should not happen.

Don't rule out water from other sources. With a Goretex liner /and/ a
good dose of external wax and a covering of surface water the amount of
"breathing" going on will be minimal, and it could just be sweat. It
could also be a natural accumulation point for water wicking in along
your socks, wet from the grass.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

It

Quoted message said:

looks as the proofing had been washed out and the leather was
saturated at this point.

once leather is wet it does not breath so well.. ITYWF

Up to now I have always had leather boots without gore-tex and always
had dry feet.

I was wearing gaiters and the top of the socks were dry, just a wet
mark across the sock at the flex point. I had to remove the insoles
when I got home to dry them. Plus this never occured on previous
walks, including getting up to be knees in a bog on Bleaklow, not only
did I have problems geting my feet out, my walking stick was also
stuck!!

I take your point that testing under pressure would be valid, but I
got the impression the test was just putting the booy under water for
24 hours.

I used the NikWax aquious product the shop recomended, so there was no
wax on the boot.

Thanks for the feed back.

Ted

Peter Clinch said:

Ted said:

The shop I bought them frtom is insisting on testing them before they
refund me, the test is placing the boots is water for 24 hours, pity I
proofed them after the walk!

Any rub-in treatment you apply to the outside of leather will help keep
water out but it won't fully proof them. It certainly can't be relied
upon to keep water out under pressure for 24 hours.

I think their test is fair, and should give you a proper answer to
whether the membrane is leaking.

Quoted message said:

I forgot they were gore-tex lined and this should not happen.

Don't rule out water from other sources. With a Goretex liner /and/ a
good dose of external wax and a covering of surface water the amount of
"breathing" going on will be minimal, and it could just be sweat. It
could also be a natural accumulation point for water wicking in along
your socks, wet from the grass.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

The message <[email hidden]>
from Peter Clinch <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

Any rub-in treatment you apply to the outside of leather will help keep
water out but it won't fully proof them. It certainly can't be relied
upon to keep water out under pressure for 24 hours.

Tiso's test (they told me afterwards, when I asked, was the reverse one!
Fill the boots with water and look to see if any leaks OUT.

My Salomons, after several months wear, failed this test, and Tiso gave
me 100% credit against a pair of Scarpas.

I thought that that was more than fair.

Richard

Ted said:

I take your point that testing under pressure would be valid, but I
got the impression the test was just putting the booy under water for
24 hours.

Under water *is* under pressure. Maybe not a huge amount, but quite
enough to work through in 24 hours if the boots really have a leakage
problem.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

As you say under a little pressure, I would not have thought a couple
inches of 'head' would make any difference.

The test I have always heard, as Richard said, is fill the boots with
water and stand them on tissue paper.

I will see what they say, when I collect tomorrow, en route for a walk
to Bleaklow Stones, if they say there is no fault, I will monitor them
more closely, and probably stop proofing them to let the leather
saturate.

As I said with decent leather boots I have never had wet feet, apart
from when water has gone over the top.

Ted

Peter Clinch said:

Ted said:

I take your point that testing under pressure would be valid, but I
got the impression the test was just putting the booy under water for
24 hours.

Under water *is* under pressure. Maybe not a huge amount, but quite
enough to work through in 24 hours if the boots really have a leakage
problem.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Ted said:

As you say under a little pressure, I would not have thought a couple
inches of 'head' would make any difference.

The test I have always heard, as Richard said, is fill the boots with
water and stand them on tissue paper.

Which will give you... a couple of inches of head for your water
pressure. It's the same thing.
Given that it /is/ the same thing, from a practical point of view, and
rather easier to engineer, I'd do it the fill the boots way myself, but
if a couple of inches head won't make any difference if the water's
outside, why will it make a difference if it's inside?

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch said:

Ted said:

As you say under a little pressure, I would not have thought a couple
inches of 'head' would make any difference.

Quoted message said:

The test I have always heard, as Richard said, is fill the boots with
water and stand them on tissue paper.

Which will give you... a couple of inches of head for your water
pressure. It's the same thing.
Given that it /is/ the same thing, from a practical point of view, and
rather easier to engineer, I'd do it the fill the boots way myself, but
if a couple of inches head won't make any difference if the water's
outside, why will it make a difference if it's inside?

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

As you say I would fill the boots with water, but I have always been
sceptical of this test because I though the pressure of water is not
sufficient, unless there was a serious fault with the membrane. But
when you think of it what other test can you do that is easy to
perform?

Ted

On Oct 18, 3:19 pm, Richard Spencer <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

The message <[email hidden]>
from Peter Clinch <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

Any rub-in treatment you apply to the outside of leather will help keep
water out but it won't fully proof them. It certainly can't be relied
upon to keep water out under pressure for 24 hours.

Tiso's test (they told me afterwards, when I asked, was the reverse one!
Fill the boots with water and look to see if any leaks OUT.

My Salomons, after several months wear, failed this test, and Tiso gave
me 100% credit against a pair of Scarpas.

I thought that that was more than fair.

Richard

My boots are 4 weeks old, I would say only now is the manufacturers
treatment wearing out.

Also if you look at the gore-tex web site they state that they will
refund the full purchase price on any gore-tex item that leaks.

Ted

Peter Clinch said:

Any rub-in treatment you apply to the outside of leather will help keep
water out but it won't fully proof them. It certainly can't be relied
upon to keep water out under pressure for 24 hours.

That reminds me of a test for NikWax, which I think was used when
NikWax first came out.

They had a boot in a fish tank full of water, using a motor to flex
the boot. They implied the boot had been in the tank for months and it
did not leak.

Ted

Ted said:

That reminds me of a test for NikWax, which I think was used when
NikWax first came out.

They had a boot in a fish tank full of water, using a motor to flex
the boot. They implied the boot had been in the tank for months and it
did not leak.

/Highly/ optimistic! If it was that well coated with wax then
breathability would be zero, so you'd be shooting yourself in the foot
rather. The point of leather is it's a good mix of toughness,
suppleness, water resistance and breathability: shame to flush the last
one down the tubes.

I've used Nikwax for years, and it's pretty good stuff, but you've got
to realise there are limits to what it will realistically achieve in the
field. I really liked their ad for the down-proofing with the anxious
looking chap floating in a loch in a down sleeping bag. It wasn't a fix
(or so I'm assured), but I know having used the down proofing (and their
other products) that you can only expect so much from them if you do
anything like walk for a few hours in the wet!

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

My ex-girlfriend had some Lowa boots and they cracked in the same place as
you mention so maybe they have a weak spot there. She did buy another pair
because they fitted so well, but I seem to remember it was when they were
drying out that they cracked.

Rob

"Ted" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Recently I bought a pair of Lowa GTX boots, leather with a gore-tex
lining.

After my last walk, around Chatsworth in wet grass and mist, I noticed
my socks were wet around the flex point at the front of the boot. It
looks as the proofing had been washed out and the leather was
saturated at this point.

The shop I bought them frtom is insisting on testing them before they
refund me, the test is placing the boots is water for 24 hours, pity I
proofed them after the walk! I forgot they were gore-tex lined and
this should not happen.

Has anyone else come across a problem like this?

When I went back to the shop they said they could not make the boots
leak but their supplier had agreed to refund me, being an obstreperous
customer can be an advantage!

But then his colleague had a look at the boots again, and they had
just started leaking. The shop specialises in resoling boots, and they
said the test should be put the boot in water as the gore-tex only
works one way.

If I next buy boots with a gore-tex linings I mut do this test myself
after I have used the boots for a few walks, after all how do you know
if the gore-tex membrane is working if the leather is 'waterproof'?

BTW I have a policy of never accepting a replacement, because I assume
that the replacement will have the same problem. Plus if you do, in
law you are no longer leagally entitled to a refund. Sometimes I will
re-purchase the same item if I can't get anything better.

The boots were very comfortable, yesterdays walk in the old boots
proved that!

"Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I've used Nikwax for years, and it's pretty good stuff, but you've got
to realise there are limits to what it will realistically achieve in
the
field. I really liked their ad for the down-proofing with the anxious
looking chap floating in a loch in a down sleeping bag. It wasn't a
fix
(or so I'm assured), but I know having used the down proofing (and
their
other products) that you can only expect so much from them if you do
anything like walk for a few hours in the wet!

Nikwax: Great stuff. Great company and owner.
Howerver the floating bag was a fudge. A few Karrimats were inserted in
to the bag to get it to hold the weight of the guy inside. I believe he
was floating around for about an hour while the picture was set up, so
the waterproofness of the down was tested. I can't find a copy of the
picture on the web, but I remember that you can just see a line where
the edge of the mats were pushing against the inside of the bag. Also I
believe it was on a village pond in (or somewhere near) Wadhurst,
Sussex, where Nikwax are based.

Magnus

In article <[email hidden]>, Ted
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

The shop specialises in resoling boots, and they
said the test should be put the boot in water as the gore-tex only
works one way.

They are wrong. The membrane that provides the waterproofing is not one
way at all. In terms of water vapour passing through the inner layer may
be designed to encourage vapour transmission but certainly in terms of
being waterproof that is irrelevant.

--

Dominic Sexton

Ted said:

But then his colleague had a look at the boots again, and they had
just started leaking. The shop specialises in resoling boots, and they
said the test should be put the boot in water as the gore-tex only
works one way.

As Dominic says, this is wrong. In action it is "one way" for
breathability because the membrane requires vapour pressure to push
vapour through, and in practice that vapour pressure is provided by the
body heat from the foot, but take away the foot and Goretex, if it's in
good order, will be impermeable to liquid water in both directions.

Quoted message said:

If I next buy boots with a gore-tex linings I mut do this test myself
after I have used the boots for a few walks, after all how do you know
if the gore-tex membrane is working if the leather is 'waterproof'?

As with this pair, if your feet get wet when they shouldn't.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/