MA3's

In article <[email hidden]>,

Callistus Valerius said:

I have 2 pairs of MA3's. The front ones, I've had no problems, both
have 10,000+ miles on them. One rear one cracked at a few of the
spoke holes, and lasted about 4000 miles. The other rear one, has
5000 miles on it, and still no sign of cracking. The one that
cracked, I tightened the spokes on it, to correct an out of true
situation. Now I'm not a wheelsmith, by a longshot, but I think I
may have tightened it too much, and that's why the spokes were
pulling through. The one that hasn't cracked, has stayed true, and I
haven't touched it. So maybe the key to the MA3 paradox, is to keep
your freakin' hands off of them.

IME no dish and 36 spokes helps. A 32 spoke 8/9/10 speed wheel is
effectively a 16 spoke wheel when considering supporting the load.

I have only one MA3, which is on my singlespeed (built on a 1930s Bendix
coaster brake hub) and much to my astonishment it has yet to crack. I
think I built that wheel about 5 years ago and it's had 1000-2000 miles
on it each year.

Callistus Valerius said:

I have 2 pairs of MA3's. The front ones, I've had no problems, both
have 10,000+ miles on them. One rear one cracked at a few of the spoke
holes, and lasted about 4000 miles. The other rear one, has 5000 miles on
it, and still no sign of cracking. The one that cracked, I tightened the
spokes on it, to correct an out of true situation. Now I'm not a
wheelsmith, by a longshot, but I think I may have tightened it too much, and
that's why the spokes were pulling through. The one that hasn't cracked,
has stayed true, and I haven't touched it. So maybe the key to the MA3
paradox, is to keep your freakin' hands off of them.

heretic! kill the unbeliever! the lord sayeth tension shall be "as
high as the rim can bear" and shall smite all those who say nay or dare
evidence the effects of the holy word without instead blaming the evil
spirit, ano di zing. may the fleas of your camel have fleas.

Tim McNamara said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Callistus Valerius said:

I have 2 pairs of MA3's. The front ones, I've had no problems, both
have 10,000+ miles on them. One rear one cracked at a few of the
spoke holes, and lasted about 4000 miles. The other rear one, has
5000 miles on it, and still no sign of cracking. The one that
cracked, I tightened the spokes on it, to correct an out of true
situation. Now I'm not a wheelsmith, by a longshot, but I think I
may have tightened it too much, and that's why the spokes were
pulling through. The one that hasn't cracked, has stayed true, and I
haven't touched it. So maybe the key to the MA3 paradox, is to keep
your freakin' hands off of them.

IME no dish and 36 spokes helps. A 32 spoke 8/9/10 speed wheel is
effectively a 16 spoke wheel when considering supporting the load.

I have only one MA3, which is on my singlespeed (built on a 1930s Bendix
coaster brake hub) and much to my astonishment it has yet to crack. I
think I built that wheel about 5 years ago and it's had 1000-2000 miles
on it each year.

When the MA3 on the rear of my "rain" bike (Campy Veloce 9 speed)
cracked out, I replaced it with... another MA3, cuz, well, it's what the
dealer had in stock for cheap and I wanted to get it built that day. I
am surprised to report that it hasn't yet cracked out after a few
seasons, but if and when it does, I won't be replacing it with another MA3.

I seem to be lucky with rims (I'm not particularly light, either, ~170 lbs).

Mark J.

Tim McNamara said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Callistus Valerius said:

I have 2 pairs of MA3's. The front ones, I've had no problems, both
have 10,000+ miles on them. One rear one cracked at a few of the
spoke holes, and lasted about 4000 miles. The other rear one, has
5000 miles on it, and still no sign of cracking. The one that
cracked, I tightened the spokes on it, to correct an out of true
situation. Now I'm not a wheelsmith, by a longshot, but I think I
may have tightened it too much, and that's why the spokes were
pulling through. The one that hasn't cracked, has stayed true, and I
haven't touched it. So maybe the key to the MA3 paradox, is to keep
your freakin' hands off of them.

IME no dish and 36 spokes helps. A 32 spoke 8/9/10 speed wheel is
effectively a 16 spoke wheel when considering supporting the load.

that's only true if the 16 other spokes are slack.

Quoted message said:

I have only one MA3, which is on my singlespeed (built on a 1930s Bendix
coaster brake hub) and much to my astonishment it has yet to crack. I
think I built that wheel about 5 years ago and it's had 1000-2000 miles
on it each year.

Callistus Valerius said:

I have 2 pairs of MA3's. The front ones, I've had no problems, both
have 10,000+ miles on them. One rear one cracked at a few of the spoke
holes, and lasted about 4000 miles.

Were the cracked holes on the side where the gears are, i.e. where the
spokes are tightest?

Quoted message said:

The other rear one, has 5000 miles on it, and still no sign of
cracking. The one that cracked, I tightened the spokes on it, to
correct an out of true situation. Now I'm not a wheelsmith, by a
longshot, but I think I may have tightened it too much, and that's why
the spokes were pulling through.

I should think very likely. Bear in mind also that they might not crack
the day you actually overtighten them, but a few months later due to
accelerated fatigue caused by the high stress.

On Mar 26, 7:28 pm, "Callistus Valerius" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I have 2 pairs of MA3's. The front ones, I've had no problems, both
have 10,000+ miles on them. One rear one cracked at a few of the spoke
holes, and lasted about 4000 miles. The other rear one, has 5000 miles on
it, and still no sign of cracking. The one that cracked, I tightened the
spokes on it, to correct an out of true situation. Now I'm not a
wheelsmith, by a longshot, but I think I may have tightened it too much, and
that's why the spokes were pulling through. The one that hasn't cracked,
has stayed true, and I haven't touched it. So maybe the key to the MA3
paradox, is to keep your freakin' hands off of them.

The key is not using them and if you have them, wait and they will
crack.I even saw cracks on non drive side rear, where tension wasn't
the issue in the truing stand but stress of riding the whel was. Even
Mavic admitted to a poor design and execution of these rims. No
problem so far with OpenSport, the MA-3 replacement.

In article <[email hidden]>,

jim beam said:

Tim McNamara said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Callistus Valerius said:

I have 2 pairs of MA3's. The front ones, I've had no problems,
both have 10,000+ miles on them. One rear one cracked at a few of
the spoke holes, and lasted about 4000 miles. The other rear one,
has 5000 miles on it, and still no sign of cracking. The one that
cracked, I tightened the spokes on it, to correct an out of true
situation. Now I'm not a wheelsmith, by a longshot, but I think I
may have tightened it too much, and that's why the spokes were
pulling through. The one that hasn't cracked, has stayed true,
and I haven't touched it. So maybe the key to the MA3 paradox, is
to keep your freakin' hands off of them.

IME no dish and 36 spokes helps. A 32 spoke 8/9/10 speed wheel is
effectively a 16 spoke wheel when considering supporting the load.

that's only true if the 16 other spokes are slack.

Yup.

But happily the MA3 has held up well with this particular wheel. Since
there's no rim brake on the rear wheel, I expect it will never wear out
and I will use it until it breaks. If it outlives my use of it, so much
the better!

Quoted message said:

The key is not using them and if you have them, wait and they will
crack.I even saw cracks on non drive side rear, where tension wasn't
the issue in the truing stand but stress of riding the whel was. Even
Mavic admitted to a poor design and execution of these rims. No
problem so far with OpenSport, the MA-3 replacement.

---------
from pics the OpenSport looks like the MA-3, why are they better? Of
course my serious wheels are Open Pros which I like better than some of the
boutique wheelsets that I rarely use. Now how do the Open Pros compare to
Open Sports? If the Open Sports have a wider rim than the Open Pros, if
they are, and are as reliable as the Pros I probably would buy a wheelset.
Sometimes I get in a wide tire mood (28's), and I think they fit better on
wider rims.

Callistus Valerius said:

I have 2 pairs of MA3's. The front ones, I've had no problems, both
have 10,000+ miles on them. One rear one cracked at a few of the spoke
holes, and lasted about 4000 miles. The other rear one, has 5000 miles on
it, and still no sign of cracking. The one that cracked, I tightened the
spokes on it, to correct an out of true situation. Now I'm not a
wheelsmith, by a longshot, but I think I may have tightened it too much, and
that's why the spokes were pulling through. The one that hasn't cracked,
has stayed true, and I haven't touched it. So maybe the key to the MA3
paradox, is to keep your freakin' hands off of them.

I'm waiting for mine to crack. It was a distress purchase to replace a
bent Open 4CD on relatively new spokes - the ERD of the two rims is
almost identical, but an Open Pro wouldn't have been close enough. OK
so far, but it's a summer-only racing bike and therefore not as stressed
as the year-round loaded commuter.

In article <[email hidden]>, Tim

McNamara said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Callistus Valerius said:

I have 2 pairs of MA3's. The front ones, I've had no problems, both
have 10,000+ miles on them. One rear one cracked at a few of the
spoke holes, and lasted about 4000 miles. The other rear one, has
5000 miles on it, and still no sign of cracking. The one that
cracked, I tightened the spokes on it, to correct an out of true
situation. Now I'm not a wheelsmith, by a longshot, but I think I
may have tightened it too much, and that's why the spokes were
pulling through. The one that hasn't cracked, has stayed true, and I
haven't touched it. So maybe the key to the MA3 paradox, is to keep
your freakin' hands off of them.

IME no dish and 36 spokes helps. A 32 spoke 8/9/10 speed wheel is
effectively a 16 spoke wheel when considering supporting the load.

I have only one MA3, which is on my singlespeed (built on a 1930s Bendix
coaster brake hub) and much to my astonishment it has yet to crack. I
think I built that wheel about 5 years ago and it's had 1000-2000 miles
on it each year.

Corroborating your impressions? I've two MA3s in service, both of the
36 spoke variety. The front has seen constant -- almost daily --
service on my all rounder for about 4 years (on a FG which rarely has
its front brake applied); the rear, laced to a Phil Wood FG hub, has
been off and on several bikes and used intermittently for the same
duration. Both wheels are laced 3x and built in accordance to the
instructions in Jobst's "The Bicycle Wheel" -- so I suppose that some
consider them excessively tensioned.

No cracks yet. I'll post when/if they fail.

Luke

Tim McNamara said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

jim beam said:

Tim McNamara said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,
"Callistus Valerius" <[email hidden]> wrote:

> I have 2 pairs of MA3's. The front ones, I've had no problems,
> both have 10,000+ miles on them. One rear one cracked at a few of
> the spoke holes, and lasted about 4000 miles. The other rear one,
> has 5000 miles on it, and still no sign of cracking. The one that
> cracked, I tightened the spokes on it, to correct an out of true
> situation. Now I'm not a wheelsmith, by a longshot, but I think I
> may have tightened it too much, and that's why the spokes were
> pulling through. The one that hasn't cracked, has stayed true,
> and I haven't touched it. So maybe the key to the MA3 paradox, is
> to keep your freakin' hands off of them.
IME no dish and 36 spokes helps. A 32 spoke 8/9/10 speed wheel is
effectively a 16 spoke wheel when considering supporting the load.

that's only true if the 16 other spokes are slack.

Yup.

But happily the MA3 has held up well with this particular wheel. Since
there's no rim brake on the rear wheel, I expect it will never wear out
and I will use it until it breaks. If it outlives my use of it, so much
the better!

does that explain how you expect to get 16 slack spokes?

In article <[email hidden]>,

jim beam said:

Tim McNamara said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

jim beam said:

Tim McNamara wrote:
> In article
> <[email hidden]>,
> "Callistus Valerius" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>
>> I have 2 pairs of MA3's. The front ones, I've had no problems,
>> both have 10,000+ miles on them. One rear one cracked at a few
>> of the spoke holes, and lasted about 4000 miles. The other rear
>> one, has 5000 miles on it, and still no sign of cracking. The
>> one that cracked, I tightened the spokes on it, to correct an
>> out of true situation. Now I'm not a wheelsmith, by a longshot,
>> but I think I may have tightened it too much, and that's why the
>> spokes were pulling through. The one that hasn't cracked, has
>> stayed true, and I haven't touched it. So maybe the key to the
>> MA3 paradox, is to keep your freakin' hands off of them.
>
> IME no dish and 36 spokes helps. A 32 spoke 8/9/10 speed wheel
> is effectively a 16 spoke wheel when considering supporting the
> load.

that's only true if the 16 other spokes are slack.

Yup.

But happily the MA3 has held up well with this particular wheel.
Since there's no rim brake on the rear wheel, I expect it will
never wear out and I will use it until it breaks. If it outlives
my use of it, so much the better!

does that explain how you expect to get 16 slack spokes?

Picking yet another fight, jim? Boring. And not interested. Try
somebody else.

Callistus Valerius said:

from pics the OpenSport looks like the MA-3, why are they better?

They beefed up the part where the single eyelet lives to make it
harder for a spoke to pull through.

Quoted message said:

Now how do the Open Pros compare to
Open Sports?

They use sockets (a.k.a. "double eyelets"😉 to spread the load of the
spoke tension over the inner and outer parts of the rim. The OPs are
lighter (435g vs. 490g for the Open Sport).

Art Harris

Tim McNamara said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

jim beam said:

Tim McNamara said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
jim beam <[email hidden]> wrote:

> Tim McNamara wrote:
>> In article
>> <[email hidden]>,
>> "Callistus Valerius" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>
>>> I have 2 pairs of MA3's. The front ones, I've had no problems,
>>> both have 10,000+ miles on them. One rear one cracked at a few
>>> of the spoke holes, and lasted about 4000 miles. The other rear
>>> one, has 5000 miles on it, and still no sign of cracking. The
>>> one that cracked, I tightened the spokes on it, to correct an
>>> out of true situation. Now I'm not a wheelsmith, by a longshot,
>>> but I think I may have tightened it too much, and that's why the
>>> spokes were pulling through. The one that hasn't cracked, has
>>> stayed true, and I haven't touched it. So maybe the key to the
>>> MA3 paradox, is to keep your freakin' hands off of them.
>> IME no dish and 36 spokes helps. A 32 spoke 8/9/10 speed wheel
>> is effectively a 16 spoke wheel when considering supporting the
>> load.
> that's only true if the 16 other spokes are slack.
Yup.

But happily the MA3 has held up well with this particular wheel.
Since there's no rim brake on the rear wheel, I expect it will
never wear out and I will use it until it breaks. If it outlives
my use of it, so much the better!

does that explain how you expect to get 16 slack spokes?

Picking yet another fight, jim? Boring. And not interested. Try
somebody else.

oh, the irony. stop telling us more than you actually know or stick to
rec.bicycles.idleunderinformedchitchat timmy boy - "tech" is not your
strong point.

On Mar 27, 8:19 am, "Callistus Valerius" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The key is not using them and if you have them, wait and they will
crack.I even saw cracks on non drive side rear, where tension wasn't
the issue in the truing stand but stress of riding the whel was. Even
Mavic admitted to a poor design and execution of these rims. No
problem so far with OpenSport, the MA-3 replacement.

---------
from pics the OpenSport looks like the MA-3, why are they better? Of
course my serious wheels are Open Pros which I like better than some of the
boutique wheelsets that I rarely use. Now how do the Open Pros compare to
Open Sports? If the Open Sports have a wider rim than the Open Pros, if
they are, and are as reliable as the Pros I probably would buy a wheelset.
Sometimes I get in a wide tire mood (28's), and I think they fit better on
wider rims.

On Mar 27, 8:19 am, "Callistus Valerius" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The key is not using them and if you have them, wait and they will
crack.I even saw cracks on non drive side rear, where tension wasn't
the issue in the truing stand but stress of riding the whel was. Even
Mavic admitted to a poor design and execution of these rims. No
problem so far with OpenSport, the MA-3 replacement.

---------
from pics the OpenSport looks like the MA-3, why are they better? Of
course my serious wheels are Open Pros which I like better than some of the
boutique wheelsets that I rarely use. Now how do the Open Pros compare to
Open Sports? If the Open Sports have a wider rim than the Open Pros, if
they are, and are as reliable as the Pros I probably would buy a wheelset.
Sometimes I get in a wide tire mood (28's), and I think they fit better on
wider rims.

heavier, harder aluminum particularly to support single eyelets.
OpenPro has double eyelets and lighter rim overall. OpenSport also $35
vs $60 for OpenPro. Same width for both.

We have built a dozen or so Open Sports with no problems so far.