Massive Belgian Drug Bust

[limerickman]

Well, I think you're off the point of this thread which has to do with Belgian drug raids.

Lance was already transforming himself into a stage racer bit by bit before cancer. Won the Tour Dupont several times in the US, came very close in Paris Nice in mid nineties behind Jaja, etc.

So Lance stepped it up a noth and Ullrich slid a notch.
But nowhere does anyone else seem to grasp that Jan never reached that prior level of 96 and 97 or come up with the answer why.

I agree entirely, this subject is away from the Belgian raid.

Stage race rider is somewhat differnt to a grand tour winner - a 7 time winner at that.
Sean kelly won Paris Nice 7 times : but he didn't manage to win a TDF, did he?
So what's your point? You trying to re-write history again?

Ullrich as a cyclist was way ahead of Armstrong - from his debut in the peloton.
Ullrich's ability as a stage racer/grand tour rider was evident from day one

Problem is that Armstrong's explanations for his"improvement" never held water.
Those of us at the time knew this - time has proven that his explanations were never true.

 

[wolfix]

Well,
But nowhere does anyone else seem to grasp that Jan never reached that prior level of 96 and 97 or come up with the answer why.

"Doughnuts"

 

[bobke]

I agree entirely, this subject is away from the Belgian raid.

Stage race rider is somewhat differnt to a grand tour winner - a 7 time winner at that.
Sean kelly won Paris Nice 7 times : but he didn't manage to win a TDF, did he?
So what's your point? You trying to re-write history again?

Ullrich as a cyclist was way ahead of Armstrong - from his debut in the peloton.
Ullrich's ability as a stage racer/grand tour rider was evident from day one
Lance was winning the World Championships in 1993 at age 21 against Indurain who wanted the triple real bad, of Giro Tour Worlds?!? Janna was winning the under 23 espoir worlds when he was 23. Comparison?

 

[limerickman]

I agree entirely, this subject is away from the Belgian raid.

Stage race rider is somewhat differnt to a grand tour winner - a 7 time winner at that.
Sean kelly won Paris Nice 7 times : but he didn't manage to win a TDF, did he?
So what's your point? You trying to re-write history again?

Ullrich as a cyclist was way ahead of Armstrong - from his debut in the peloton.
Ullrich's ability as a stage racer/grand tour rider was evident from day one
Lance was winning the World Championships in 1993 at age 21 against Indurain who wanted the triple real bad, of Giro Tour Worlds?!? Janna was winning the under 23 espoir worlds when he was 23. Comparison?

Let me give you one comparison : Ullrich debuted in the TDF finishing second.
Armstrong didn't manage to finish in his debut.
That's just one instance where Ullrich quality was apparent for day one.

You made the point earlier that Armstrong was progressing.
He was progressing as a one day rider during that time.
Credit his 1993 one day win for sure, in Oslo.
That ability was never in dispute - and I earlier acknowledged his ability as a one day rider.
But even hiis one day ability wasn't as consistent as other one dayers in that time.
He finished last in San Sebastian for example.
But let's be reasonable - he was a very good one day rider.

Stage rider/grand tour rider? Different breed entirely. Different discipline.
And in this context, Armstrong's palmares did not indicate in any way the ability to improve to the extent that he did so post-cancer.

 

[wolfix]

I think Lance had the basic winning formula for the TDF all along.... He could time trial and he could climb with anyone but the true mountain goats leading up to his cancer years. . Plus he has the ability to recover.. Those are the 3 things a rider must do to win the TDF. Lance had a reputation for being able to TT before the cancer discovery. He had a winning edge over Ekimov in TT's , and we know Ekimov is a European stud in the TT's. Lance placed second in the GP Eddy Merckx in 1996 and won it with Eki in 2000... Lance could TT.

The climbing ability came with the loss of upper body due to cancer and the training he did from that point on. He trained in the mountains during his comeback.

Plus something he did after the cancer years was to seek European experiance [Bruyneel} that he did not have with Motorola. No offese to [size=-1]Ochowicz but he did not have the experiance that Bruyneel had with the TDF.

Then he signed EKI..... That was the first international rider that Lance put in place to get him to the podium. That opened the door for other internationals.
[/size]
His road to TDF victoy was paved with intelligent thought, a strong motor, and support fot a singular goal.

Plus he had dedication.. All riders have dedication, but Jan's dedication after his Tour victory may be questioned along with his choice of managment.
If Jan had made proper choices in his life we would not be having this discussion. He would have added several of Lance's TDF's to his resume...


No other team dedicated their entire season to the TDF like Postal/Discovery did. Everything Postal did was focused on the Tour. Plus, if you look at every winning TDF team, they almost always have one thing in common.... The TDF team revolves around one man and one man only. The team is run with an iron fist. A winning team TDF team is not about anyone but the designated rider. The only time in recent years [?] that this was not part of a winning formula was the Hinault/Lemond situation. And that came close to self destructing.

And if you look at the big difference between Lance and Jan is that Lance does not accept losing. He hates to lose. And with Jan, we have to question his desire. And since Pantani left, Jan and Lance were the only 2 real canidates for the top step of the podium at the TDF.

 

[limerickman]

Plus he had dedication.. All riders have dedication, but Jan's dedication after his Tour victory may be questioned along with his choice of managment.
If Jan had made proper choices in his life we would not be having this discussion. He would have added several of Lance's TDF's to his resume...

First things first - ALL professional riders are dedicated.
They have to be, by definition.
So let's debunk this myth once and for all.
For Armstrong or any one of his syncophants to insult the supporters (and fellow riders) intelligence by trying to question other riders dedication is frankly an insult.
Especially coming from Armstrong, knowing what we now know about him.

Armstrong was bursting his bollox back in 1992-1996 : I've his very words in his interviews at the time.
He retrospectively claimed in his books that he wasn't dedicated.
Well his interviews with David Walsh (1993), Alisdair Fotheringham 1994/1995,
four separate interviews in Cycle Sport in 1995 and Samual Abts book in 1996
all contradict Armstrong revisionist view that he wasn't dedicated.

If Jan had made proper choices in his life we would not be having this discussion. He would have added several of Lance's TDF's to his resume...

In the context of the TDF, perhaps you're right.

Ullrich's palmares though is bursting with titles : Vuelta, Olympic Champion,
his TDF record, Tour of Switzerland.......all indicate a great great rider.

And if you look at the big difference between Lance and Jan is that Lance does not accept losing. He hates to lose. And with Jan, we have to question his desire. And since Pantani left, Jan and Lance were the only 2 real canidates for the top step of the podium at the TDF.

He may hate to lose - but if you look at his record - surely that hatred of being beaten would have compelled him to at least finish 1993 TDf?
Ditto 1994 TDF?

There's a problem here.

Armstrong was a driven when he started in 1992 as he was post-1999.
He was obsessed and driven : I know his books put out a different story.
I know he tries to create the impression that he was a dilletante : "Oh I trained but I enjoyed a beer.....blah, blah, blah"
That's what he states in his books.

In 1993 he told David Walsh that he trained his balls off, that it was 24/7, that all he did was cycle.
That directly contradicts his books.

 

[wolfix]

First things first - ALL professional riders are dedicated.
They have to be, by definition.
So let's debunk this myth once and for all.

I think I said all riders were dedicated.... But this year, if Jan shows up to the TDF in better shape then he has in years past it will point to the lack of dedication on his part in the past fw years.
The part of the post that stated Armstrong was dedicated should have reffered to post cancer. The TT in the rain where Jan crashed and Lance won points to the difference in the 2 riders. Jan did not scout the ride, but Lance was out there going over the ride to insure he knew what to expect. The TDF was on the line and Jan needed everything he could get to hope for a victory.
I don't think Jan's career has taken a upward spiral since 2000. Armstrong in contrast has had constant movement upward.....
Lance may have had a better TDF finishing record [pre-cancer] if his focus was on the TDF. With Motorola he didn't have any direction... And I believe if the cancer would not have been an issue, Lance would have never been a contender in the TDF. I believe he would have left the sport for Triathilons.

Ullrich's palmares though is bursting with titles : Vuelta, Olympic Champion,
his TDF record, Tour of Switzerland.......all indicate a great great rider.

Few of those rides came in the past 5 years..... The Tour of Switzerland yes. No one is denying that Jan has shown great promise when he was young. And he has had a great career with some more wins yet to add. But his dedication to winning the TDF has been questioned by many including his own team mates and DS. This year will show us as to how serious Jan was about the TDF the past few years.

 

[wolfix]

Let me give you one comparison : Ullrich debuted in the TDF finishing second.
Armstrong didn't manage to finish in his debut.
That's just one instance where Ullrich quality was apparent for day one.

Let's look at that for a moment.....
Let's really look at Jan closer..... Let's compare him to recent TDF champions. Let's start with Indurain .....
Indurain started the
TDF in 1985..... DNF 4th stage
1986.....DNF 8th stage
1987...... 97th place
1988..... 47th place
1989 ...... 17th place
And his focus was on the TDF in a much bigger way then Lance's focus was in the 1st years. .
Let's look at Indurains record In his tour in Spain ....
1985 84th place
1986 92 nd place
1987 DNF
1988 DNF
1989 DNF
So , in Indurains 1st 5 years he won a few important time trials , but nothing else really important. He sure didn't look like a stage racer.
But ..... Indurain managed a few wins here and there once he figured it out.

But let's look at Jan ..... There are 19 riders with more TDF wins then Jan. ^Six riders in the last 30 years that have won more TDF's then Jan.


Both Armstrong and Indurain may not have shown TDF promise in the beginning of their careers, but they won a total of 12 TDF's ... Jan has won a total of one. He is not going into history known as one of the great TDF champions. If he is known as anything it will be as the man who couldn't beat Armstrong. ....

Jan will be known as a great rider, but not TDF champion. And if he loses this year, he will be known more for his losing, then he will be lnown for the accomplishments he did have.

 

[limerickman]

This is ultimately a fruitless debate : members positions are entrenched (including mine, I have to add).

 

[JohnO]

Now, Lim, don't go mucking up a perfectly fruitless debate with a logical statement. I've done enough entrenching to qualify me for WW1 combat...

This is ultimately a fruitless debate : members positions are entrenched (including mine, I have to add).

 

[barnstorm]

This is ultimately a fruitless debate : members positions are entrenched (including mine, I have to add).

Lim

Glad to hear you say this. You, of all people, in this ridiculous circle jerk over Lance Armstrong and DC vs. the world actually have a real love of cycling and a lot of real opinions to share. When all of the great spring races are getting into swing, and riders are beginning to show form, there is a lot of actualy cycling to talk about. Why are five out of six posts biased and silly schoolyard banter about a topic with no relevancy and that has long since passed it's last intelligent argument???

Basso just won CI, Vino just won a stage race, Cunego just won a stage race, Mayo is showing a little bit of form, the Three Days of De Panne kicks off today, the best single day of the year is this weekend, the TD Georgia kicks off this weekend, and Ullrich starts racing this weekend.

Lim, lead by example, get out of these playground squabbles, let it go, and come talk about cycling in some current and interesting threads which are only getting a post a week now. Leave these silly threads to people with no actual cycling opinions.