Mavic vs Neuvation

rparedes said:

I may be upgrading wheels. I'm trying to decide between Mavic Ksyrium LS and Neuvation R28 aero4.
I love the look of the mavics (i ride aksyiums currently) but are they worth $250-$350 more than the Neuvations. i know the mavics are 100 grams lighter but is there really an appreciable difference quality/durability/performance between them?
Neuvation rims are sleeved; mavics are welded? I think both have alloy nipples and cartridge bearings. It also appears that Neuvation has better customer support.
Comments?

Nevations are better deal than Mavic.
I think conventionally source hubs from Shimano, DT, and Campagnolo are better and more serviceable. I also think the same applies to spokes from Sapim and DT, as well as rims from Velocity and DT.
A quality builder can use conventional sources to give you great wheels that have better service life and more universally available parts & service.
Rims wear out and hubs need service during their life.
Neuvation's business model is admirable and the owner is a straight up person who will try to treat you fairly and support you the best he can. He just can't beat availabilty of rims, spokes, and hubs + parts & service from 1,000's of sources around the world.

No arguement with your comments at all. I'd always believed that "conventional" 32 spoke wheels were more durable and serviceable than the "upgrade/boutique" wheels.

However, based on my experience with Velomax (now Easton) Circuit wheels over the past 4 years, have to say I'm amazed at how they are holding up. With only 24 spokes front, 28 rear, thought I was buying a low-priced disposal wheelset that would be fun to try with the new bike. In 19K miles carrying my 180 lbs plus, haven't needed to true them at all.

Have replaced the bearings in the front hubs due to corrosion, but at least they are cheap "R8" bearings; easy to change without special tools. The hubs have no real axle seals, instead relying on the "non-contact" seals on the bearings. Velomax Tech Support advised me to pull off the endcaps and wipe out any moisture after a rain ride.....not hard, but wouldn't be my first choice for a rainy tour. Plus, no way to adjust the preload on the bearings, which of course aren't designed for end loads. And the rims aren't fancy: no eyelets, a pinned joint, and plain finish.

Bottom line, the Circuits have changed my views a bit on "low-spoke" wheels. Have never had a set of "conventional" 32 spoke wheels hold up this long without a broken spoke or cracked rim. But, in fairness, my experience has been with lower-quality rims, eg, ISO Matrix, MA-40, MA-3.....not quite the top-shelf that you recommend 🙂

daveornee said:

Nevations are better deal than Mavic.
I think conventionally source hubs from Shimano, DT, and Campagnolo are better and more serviceable. I also think the same applies to spokes from Sapim and DT, as well as rims from Velocity and DT.
A quality builder can use conventional sources to give you great wheels that have better service life and more universally available parts & service.
Rims wear out and hubs need service during their life.

So you think you can get a wheelset with DT hubs, DT or sapim spokes and DT rims for $300? can you direct me to a source?

rparedes said:

So you think you can get a wheelset with DT hubs, DT or sapim spokes and DT rims for $300? can you direct me to a source?

When The John Neugent Company gives you that kind of a discount on his already well priced Neuvation wheels, why do you look at DT?

rparedes said:

I may be upgrading wheels. I'm trying to decide between Mavic Ksyrium LS and Neuvation R28 aero4.

The Ksyrium SL is a bad deal. Expensive, high-drag, not even particularly light, has the infamous FTS-L freehub.

daveornee said:

When The John Neugent Company gives you that kind of a discount on his already well priced Neuvation wheels, why do you look at DT?

That's what I thought. I have never been able to find DT Swiss parts for less than $500 bucks or a set; without labor... I am leaning towards Neuvation from what I've heard, and keep hearing, never seen them in person though...I'm trying to find a reason to celebrate something and get me another set of wheels... maybe Labor Day? 😄
thanks!

artemidorus said:

The Ksyrium SL is a bad deal. Expensive, high-drag, not even particularly light, has the infamous FTS-L freehub.

Twice I have seen a rider using Ksyrium SL wheels break a spoke out in the middle of nowhere and both times the bike could not be trued in the field with one occasion the bike could not be ridden and the other barely made it back with the brakes removed. That was enough to convince me never to consider those wheels and now they have carbon spoked wheels and I wonder what that would be like to break one of those far from home or the car. Would those hold some trueness to limp back home or would the rim warp as badly as the Ksyriums?

rparedes said:

I may be upgrading wheels. I'm trying to decide between Mavic Ksyrium LS and Neuvation R28 aero4.
I love the look of the mavics (i ride aksyiums currently) but are they worth $250-$350 more than the Neuvations. i know the mavics are 100 grams lighter but is there really an appreciable difference quality/durability/performance between them?
Neuvation rims are sleeved; mavics are welded? I think both have alloy nipples and cartridge bearings. It also appears that Neuvation has better customer support.
Comments?

Privately sourced hubs, rims and spokes, made and then sold directly to the end user. That makes for lower pricing and for $300, they may suit you fine but may not be supported rim, spoke, hub innard wise in a few years. Typical throw away bike parts so common these days. If they fit your bill...

I echo the others about mavic anywheel. Poor rear hub, overpriced, not light, aero or reliable.

Peter@vecchios said:

I echo the others about mavic anywheel. Poor rear hub, overpriced, not light, aero or reliable.

Wow... Then I don't understand why people buy them like crazy. The hubs look nicely machined and get very good reviews (super smooth, quiet, great wheels!) but I'm learning to take reviews with a grain of salt.
Is the poor rear hub comment related to soft alloy body? bearings?
Overpriced retail? sure, but i don't think anybody is paying retail (probably closer to $600-650 for a new set)
I'm pretty sure I'll be going with Neuvation and give them a try.
thanks!

rparedes said:

Wow... Then I don't understand why people buy them like crazy. The hubs look nicely machined and get very good reviews (super smooth, quiet, great wheels!) but I'm learning to take reviews with a grain of salt.
Is the poor rear hub comment related to soft alloy body? bearings?
Overpriced retail? sure, but i don't think anybody is paying retail (probably closer to $600-650 for a new set)
I'm pretty sure I'll be going with Neuvation and give them a try.
thanks!

Why do people buy them? Because they look good.
The hub problem is a plastic bush forming the inner freehub bearing. In fact, it is not a big problem and the hubs are otherwise reasonable.

rparedes said:

Wow... Then I don't understand why people buy them like crazy. -snip-

Then you probably don't understand marketing 😄

rparedes said:

bearings?

Exactly. Bearings? What bearings?? "We don't need to use bearings, our bushing is cheaper and doesn't wear down that expensive aluminium freehub body".....yeah, riiiiiiiight 🙄 Out of 8 riders in my Sunday training group who use Mavic wheels, 3 have developed the dreaded "Mavic Death Squeal"tm.

BikingBrian said:

Out of 8 riders in my Sunday training group who use Mavic wheels, 3 have developed the dreaded "Mavic Death Squeal"tm.

Neglected maintenance. Sure, it's maintenance that other hubs don't require. Takes 10 min every 6 months.

artemidorus said:

Neglected maintenance. Sure, it's maintenance that other hubs don't require. Takes 10 min every 6 months.

True...and it was really nice how Mavic supplied that information to its Japanese consumers.....I had to go up to the Mavic tech site, download the overhaul instructions (only in English and French) and translate it to Japanese for my riding buddies here 🙄
Not one of them knew, or were told, when they bought their wheelsets, about the maintenance. Luckily I had heard about the bushing issues on the net, so I was able to pass that info along to them.

rparedes said:

Wow... Then I don't understand why people buy them like crazy. The hubs look nicely machined and get very good reviews (super smooth, quiet, great wheels!) but I'm learning to take reviews with a grain of salt.
Is the poor rear hub comment related to soft alloy body? bearings?
Overpriced retail? sure, but i don't think anybody is paying retail (probably closer to $600-650 for a new set)
I'm pretty sure I'll be going with Neuvation and give them a try.
thanks!

Cuz they are cheap?? Support for a wheel in the future is important if you spend more $. If you don't, just like a bike frame, if ya kill it, it was cheap, make it a wind chime or pen holder.

'Nobody paying retail', well we sell perhaps 400 handbuilt wheels per year cuz even tho they are more expensive, they are designed specifically for the rider and their needs, use better hubs(Campagnolo, DT, shimano) and the rider has a bike shop they can talk to if they have any problem. In other words, service. For some, price trumps all, for others, it does not.

But if these wheels fit your bill, go buy 'em.

artemidorus said:

Neglected maintenance. Sure, it's maintenance that other hubs don't require. Takes 10 min every 6 months.

Come on..for some of these wheelsets that cost $1500+, a decent hub 'should' be part of the equation. Face it, these freehubs are cheap to make, and these wheels are marketed to death. Score one for Mavic, they did a great job of marketing if not designing.

Peter@vecchios said:

Cuz they are cheap??
But if these wheels fit your bill, go buy 'em.

Well, because of my research/feedback, they appear to be a good balance of price/quality/customer service/weight.
I am positive DT hubs are probably much better, but do I need that?; not right now... maybe later.... as I become a more discerning/better rider. Right now I'm just trying to move up the ladder in terms of fitness, quality of my equipment and enjoyment of the sport. I upgraded my wheels about 1 year ago from 2200 gram solid as a tank wheels, to a lighter-1800 gram wheelset; I don't care what people say, but I certainly feel the difference and I'm having a lot more of fun!
Do I want to pay $600 when I could get a nice set for $300? Hell, no. I'd rather use the leftover cash to get me a better set of pedals or a "climbing cassette" or new shoes (mine are almost on their last spoke)
Believe me, I know where your are coming from. I support my LBS as much as I can. i've spent more money there than going out to eat!
:eek:

rparedes said:

Well, because of my research/feedback, they appear to be a good balance of price/quality/customer service/weight.
I am positive DT hubs are probably much better, but do I need that?; not right now... maybe later.... as I become a more discerning/better rider. Right now I'm just trying to move up the ladder in terms of fitness, quality of my equipment and enjoyment of the sport. I upgraded my wheels about 1 year ago from 2200 gram solid as a tank wheels, to a lighter-1800 gram wheelset; I don't care what people say, but I certainly feel the difference and I'm having a lot more of fun!
Do I want to pay $600 when I could get a nice set for $300? Hell, no. I'd rather use the leftover cash to get me a better set of pedals or a "climbing cassette" or new shoes (mine are almost on their last spoke)
Believe me, I know where your are coming from. I support my LBS as much as I can. i've spent more money there than going out to eat!
:eek:

I understand and I am not criticizing your decision. These sound like they fit well into your personal 'equation'. But I am saying , 'no such thing as a free lunch'.

Also I would say use the $300 for a coach or massage regimen or dietician, something to help the engine. But new wheels, and the 'fun' they generate is there, even if hard to quantify.

Quoted post said:

Wow... Then I don't understand why people buy them like crazy. The hubs look nicely machined and get very good reviews (super smooth, quiet, great wheels!) but I'm learning to take reviews with a grain of salt.
Is the poor rear hub comment related to soft alloy body? bearings?
Overpriced retail? sure, but i don't think anybody is paying retail (probably closer to $600-650 for a new set) I'm pretty sure I'll be going with Neuvation and give them a try. thanks!

Peter@vecchios said:

Cuz they are cheap?? Support for a wheel in the future is important if you spend more $. If you don't, just like a bike frame, if ya kill it, it was cheap, make it a wind chime or pen holder.

'Nobody paying retail', well we sell perhaps 400 handbuilt wheels per year cuz even tho they are more expensive, they are designed specifically for the rider and their needs, use better hubs(Campagnolo, DT, shimano) and the rider has a bike shop they can talk to if they have any problem. In other words, service. For some, price trumps all, for others, it does not.

But if these wheels fit your bill, go buy 'em.

Man, the people I know who have them think they're expensive but worth it because they think they're high end wheels. But most haven't actually paid for them, they came on their bikes. By far, most of the road bikers I know simply ride the wheels that came with their bikes. My theory is that people have them for that reason. Now that I think of it, this relates to your comment about cheap - they're on the bikes because they're cheap, and the salesperson can say, hey those wheels alone would cost you "$multihundred" if you bought them alone. I've heard that several times from happy owners of nice new bikes. I know very few who have bought the wheels themselves, although around where I live, Mavic are about the only wheels in stock nowadays.

Peter@vecchios said:

Come on..for some of these wheelsets that cost $1500+, a decent hub 'should' be part of the equation. Face it, these freehubs are cheap to make, and these wheels are marketed to death. Score one for Mavic, they did a great job of marketing if not designing.

Let me think about the fate of hubs I have owned...a few killed through head-on crashes, a couple thrown out due to cracked flanges, a few put on the shelf in perfect condition through the freehub being obsolete, a few still on the bike in perfect condition after years of ongoing maintenance. None ever more expensive than XT, except the Mavic one. I have never simply worn out a hub bearing or a freehub bearing. Maybe the Mavic freehub will be the first.
The point, however, is that you don't need a fancy hub on a well-maintained wheel. I expect to kill my Mavic wheels through rim fatigue or crash damage well before the hubs die.