Max heart rate at high altitude

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In article said:

I would be interested in any insights regarding heart rate and general
cycling performance at higher altitudes. The highest altitude at which
I've ridden until last week was 9500 feet, and I didn't notice any
significant negative effects (aside from being tired after the climb 🙂

Last week I found myself at 13000 feet, and noticed all kinds of weird
problems. Aside from a headache, which I attributed to the altitude, I
found myself completely lacking energy (both physical and mental). The
max heart rate I could attain was around 120 bpm, and I could climb only
by weaving back and forth across the road (this was probably about 12%
grade, well within the bounds of a normal hill).

_ Sounds like typical initial symptoms of Altitude sickness...

Quoted message said:

I've poked around on google, and found that high altitudes decrease
VO2max (approximately 1% for every 300 feet above 4500 feet, or about
30% at 13000 ft.) I haven't measured my VO2max, nor do I generally use a
HRM, though when I played around with one last year I found my max HR to
be around 200bpm.

Can anyone else who has ridden at higher altitudes provide anecdotal
evidence? Does this sound like a normal experience, or does it indicate
lack of training?

_ Welcome to Altitude Roullette! I'd say your experience is
pretty typical. If you live near sea level, going to 13K is
close to the limit of what you can do in one day and you're
likely to have problems. Even a day or overnight of adaptation
can make a big difference at 13K.

_ I routinely go from sea level to 9-10K on hiking, skiing
and biking trips and it seems like a [censored] shoot. Some days I'm
fine and some days there's just no gas in the tank. Keeping
hydrated helps, but I've found no real magic bullet.

_ In general your response to altitude (good or bad ) is not
affected by how in shape you are. In fact there's some evidence
that increased fitness is likely to lead to more occurance of
Altitude sickness symptoms. ( The more in shape you are, the bigger
hole you can dig for yourself... )

_ Booker C. Bense

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Sam H. said:

Last week I found myself at 13000 feet, and noticed all kinds of
weird problems.

First and foremost, where was this road? Was it paved? Mt. Evans,
CO is the only US road I know of that goes as high. I like high
roads.

Quoted message said:

Aside from a headache, which I attributed to the altitude, I
found myself completely lacking energy (both physical and mental).

Those are the early symptoms of Acute Mountain Sickness (AMS). When
you start feeling like that, slow down or stop and rest, and be sure
to drink plenty. If the symptoms persist, descend until you feel
better.

Quoted message said:

The max heart rate I could attain was around 120 bpm, and I could
climb only by weaving back and forth across the road (this was
probably about 12% grade, well within the bounds of a normal
hill).

The highest I've ridden is about 12,500' (Independence Pass, CO and
White Mountain, CA). It required great mental effort to get my
heart rate above 80%, and my climbing rate was reduced by 20% or
so. I was able to sustain a heart rate of only 75%.

Quoted message said:

Does this sound like a normal experience, or does it indicate
lack of training?

Your symptoms suggest you weren't acclimatized to the altitude.
Everyone slows down at elevation, though.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/

Terry Morse said:

Sam H. said:

Last week I found myself at 13000 feet, and noticed all kinds of
weird problems.

First and foremost, where was this road? Was it paved? Mt. Evans,
CO is the only US road I know of that goes as high. I like high
roads.

Mauna Kea in Hawaii; the road starts at around 6000 feet, climbs to 9000
feet over 6 paved miles, then to 12000 feet over 5 unpaved miles. The
last 1800 feet (up to the various telescopes) is paved, though.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Aside from a headache, which I attributed to the altitude, I
found myself completely lacking energy (both physical and mental).

Those are the early symptoms of Acute Mountain Sickness (AMS). When
you start feeling like that, slow down or stop and rest, and be sure
to drink plenty. If the symptoms persist, descend until you feel
better.

Slowing down wasn't even a choice; I found myself stopping literally
every 20 feet or so. At 13k feet, with about 800 to go to the top, I
felt I simply had to turn around.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The max heart rate I could attain was around 120 bpm, and I could
climb only by weaving back and forth across the road (this was
probably about 12% grade, well within the bounds of a normal
hill).

The highest I've ridden is about 12,500' (Independence Pass, CO and
White Mountain, CA). It required great mental effort to get my
heart rate above 80%, and my climbing rate was reduced by 20% or
so. I was able to sustain a heart rate of only 75%.

That's still significantly higher than what I got, but it's good to know
HR should decrease at least a little. 12K - 13K took me an hour,
compared to my usual 2500 vfph.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Does this sound like a normal experience, or does it indicate
lack of training?

Your symptoms suggest you weren't acclimatized to the altitude.
Everyone slows down at elevation, though.

Thanks; your experience sounds similar to mine (though it sounds like
you handled it better). That's the kind of information I was looking for.

Thanks,
Sam

Sam H. said:

Mauna Kea in Hawaii; the road starts at around 6000 feet, climbs to 9000
feet over 6 paved miles, then to 12000 feet over 5 unpaved miles. The
last 1800 feet (up to the various telescopes) is paved, though.

How is the unpaved section? Is it manageable on a road bike?

Quoted message said:

Slowing down wasn't even a choice; I found myself stopping literally
every 20 feet or so. At 13k feet, with about 800 to go to the top, I
felt I simply had to turn around.

A wise decision. AMS can get serious if you continue to push forward.

Quoted message said:

Thanks; your experience sounds similar to mine (though it sounds like
you handled it better). That's the kind of information I was looking for.

I would want to spend at least two days at altitude before
attempting a climb over 10k feet. Getting AMS sucks.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/

On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 21:13:19 -0800, "Sam H." <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I would be interested in any insights regarding heart rate and general
cycling performance at higher altitudes. The highest altitude at which
I've ridden until last week was 9500 feet, and I didn't notice any
significant negative effects (aside from being tired after the climb 🙂

Last week I found myself at 13000 feet, and noticed all kinds of weird
problems. Aside from a headache, which I attributed to the altitude, I
found myself completely lacking energy (both physical and mental). The
max heart rate I could attain was around 120 bpm, and I could climb only
by weaving back and forth across the road (this was probably about 12%
grade, well within the bounds of a normal hill).

I've poked around on google, and found that high altitudes decrease
VO2max (approximately 1% for every 300 feet above 4500 feet, or about
30% at 13000 ft.) I haven't measured my VO2max, nor do I generally use a
HRM, though when I played around with one last year I found my max HR to
be around 200bpm.

Can anyone else who has ridden at higher altitudes provide anecdotal
evidence? Does this sound like a normal experience, or does it indicate
lack of training?

I live in Aurora, Illinois, elevation about 700 ft. For the past three
summers I've cycled in Summit County, Colorado at elevations exceeding
10,000 ft. My observed max heart rate while climbing here in Illinois
is in the upper 170s, but at high elevations I have a hard time
getting it into the 150s. YMMV.

People vary in their responses to elevation. In Illinois I can out
climb my girlfriend by such a margin it's kind of embarrassing. In the
Rockies I have a hard time staying with her on extended climbs. :-(

jeverett3<AT>earthlink<DOT>net http://home.earthlink.net/~jeverett3

Terry Morse said:

Sam H. said:

Mauna Kea in Hawaii; the road starts at around 6000 feet, climbs to 9000
feet over 6 paved miles, then to 12000 feet over 5 unpaved miles. The
last 1800 feet (up to the various telescopes) is paved, though.

How is the unpaved section? Is it manageable on a road bike?

Quoted message said:

Slowing down wasn't even a choice; I found myself stopping literally
every 20 feet or so. At 13k feet, with about 800 to go to the top, I
felt I simply had to turn around.

A wise decision. AMS can get serious if you continue to push forward.

I have to agree with Terry on this. 15,000 feet is about the maximum
altitude even for sitting and doing nothing harder than thinking, which
in itself becomes difficult at that level. If you do put yourself into
hypoxia you may not get out again, as in possible permanent pass out.
There is always next year for that last 800 feet.
Be safe.
Bill B.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Thanks; your experience sounds similar to mine (though it sounds like
you handled it better). That's the kind of information I was looking
for.

I would want to spend at least two days at altitude before
attempting a climb over 10k feet. Getting AMS sucks.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/

--
bbaka

Terry Morse said:

Sam H. said:

Mauna Kea in Hawaii; the road starts at around 6000 feet, climbs to 9000
feet over 6 paved miles, then to 12000 feet over 5 unpaved miles. The
last 1800 feet (up to the various telescopes) is paved, though.

How is the unpaved section? Is it manageable on a road bike?

I was riding it on a rented road bike with 25c tires, which was less
than optimal; of the ~5 miles dirt, I probably walked 20%, because of
lack of traction on very steep uphills. Downhill wasn't much easier,
because there was perhaps 1cm of fine loose dirt on much of the road,
which along with washboard made the ride extremely squirrely.

There are some decent pictures here:
http://www.hawaiihighways.com/photos-observatories-roads.htm

The terrain in the lower right of this picture was similar to the road
surface:
http://www.samhuffman.com/albums/hawaii_dec_2004/cached/IMG_3291.html

But nothing that shows the grade or the loose stuff on top. Definitely a
worthwhile ride, or drive at least, just for the views. And as you
noted, it's always good to increase one's max altitude 🙂

Sam

John Everett said:

People vary in their responses to elevation. In Illinois I can out
climb my girlfriend by such a margin it's kind of embarrassing. In the
Rockies I have a hard time staying with her on extended climbs. :-(

I wonder if we bigger guys suffer more at elevation than little folks?
My wife isn't a cyclist or hiker, but we got about equally winded when
walking around on Mauna Kea. I'm 76", 215 pounds, and can keep up with
most when climbing at lower elevations, but felt like a 6 year old on a
tricycle would pass me on this ride.

Sam

Sam H. said:

I wonder if we bigger guys suffer more at elevation than little folks?
My wife isn't a cyclist or hiker, but we got about equally winded when
walking around on Mauna Kea. I'm 76", 215 pounds, and can keep up with
most when climbing at lower elevations, but felt like a 6 year old on
a tricycle would pass me on this ride.

Don't know about the ascent, but Bill Baka would hit 50 MPH on the way down.

(Sorry, Bill, couldn't resist 🙂 )

Sam H. said:

I was riding it on a rented road bike with 25c tires, which was less
than optimal; of the ~5 miles dirt, I probably walked 20%, because of
lack of traction on very steep uphills. Downhill wasn't much easier,
because there was perhaps 1cm of fine loose dirt on much of the road,
which along with washboard made the ride extremely squirrely.

Sounds quite unpleasant. That reminds me of my attempt on White
Mountain this year, and that was on a hardtail mountain bike. The
washboard surface beat me up pretty badly. I think I'll limit my
Hawaii climbs to Haleakala.

--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/

On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 02:59:57 GMT, Bill Sornson <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Sam H. said:

I wonder if we bigger guys suffer more at elevation than little folks?
My wife isn't a cyclist or hiker, but we got about equally winded when
walking around on Mauna Kea. I'm 76", 215 pounds, and can keep up with
most when climbing at lower elevations, but felt like a 6 year old on
a tricycle would pass me on this ride.

Don't know about the ascent, but Bill Baka would hit 50 MPH on the way
down.

(Sorry, Bill, couldn't resist 🙂 )

Hey, no problem, because I would try. Riding motorcycles
has made me somewhat reckless on a bike, something like too
much going fast and having fun. At 10,000 feet 50 MPH should be
a possibility with less air resistance. Just watch out for
the cliffs you can ride off of. I know the safety
minded will jump me but some of my experiences are really
memorable due to the "Oh, my God!" factor. Nobody really
thinks back on a routine training ride and thinks about the
memories, but some of the 'almost got killed' rides I do.
Some of the motorcycle/bicycle + mud events are memorable,
if only because of the absurd things I have tried.
Remember the guy that skied down Everest with a parachute behind
him to keep from going past 100 MPH? I think he was a famous
Japanese daredevil. Anyone care to fill in on high altitude descents?
I ride, I post, I still have to grow up.
My wife says I have no common sense, but then
again, I am not common (collective sigh of relief).
Living life differently.
Bill B

--
bbaka

Bill Baka said:

On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 02:59:57 GMT, Bill Sornson <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Sam H. said:

I wonder if we bigger guys suffer more at elevation than little folks?
My wife isn't a cyclist or hiker, but we got about equally winded when
walking around on Mauna Kea. I'm 76", 215 pounds, and can keep up with
most when climbing at lower elevations, but felt like a 6 year old on
a tricycle would pass me on this ride.

Don't know about the ascent, but Bill Baka would hit 50 MPH on the way
down.

(Sorry, Bill, couldn't resist 🙂 )

Hey, no problem, because I would try. Riding motorcycles
has made me somewhat reckless on a bike, something like too
much going fast and having fun. At 10,000 feet 50 MPH should be
a possibility with less air resistance. Just watch out for
the cliffs you can ride off of. I know the safety
minded will jump me but some of my experiences are really
memorable due to the "Oh, my God!" factor. Nobody really
thinks back on a routine training ride and thinks about the
memories, but some of the 'almost got killed' rides I do.
Some of the motorcycle/bicycle + mud events are memorable,
if only because of the absurd things I have tried.
Remember the guy that skied down Everest with a parachute behind
him to keep from going past 100 MPH? I think he was a famous
Japanese daredevil. Anyone care to fill in on high altitude descents?
I ride, I post, I still have to grow up.
My wife says I have no common sense, but then
again, I am not common (collective sigh of relief).
Living life differently.
Bill B

Speaking of Japanese daredevils, does anyone else here know what
"Baka" means in Japanese?

jeverett3<AT>earthlink<DOT>net http://home.earthlink.net/~jeverett3

Sam H. said:

There are some decent pictures here:
http://www.hawaiihighways.com/photos-observatories-roads.htm

The terrain in the lower right of this picture was similar to the

road

Quoted message said:

surface:
http://www.samhuffman.com/albums/hawaii_dec_2004/cached/IMG_3291.html

But nothing that shows the grade or the loose stuff on top.

Definitely a

Quoted message said:

worthwhile ride, or drive at least, just for the views. And as you
noted, it's always good to increase one's max altitude 🙂

Physical difficulties aside, it looks like a great ride! One of the
road signs in your first link does show a gradient of 17% -- a worthy
challenge at any elevation. Seems like a nice trip would be to camp
out at ~10,000' for a night or two (unless there's lodging at that
altitude) and then do the ride.

(We're snowbound again on the Colorado front range, so I'm daydreaming
about all kinds of rides...)

JR

Bill Baka said:

memorable due to the "Oh, my God!" factor. Nobody really
thinks back on a routine training ride and thinks about the
memories, but some of the 'almost got killed' rides I do.

Just a difference in what you like, I guess. Some of my best memories
are of routine training rides on gorgeous days. I still remember a
fall ride I did about 3 years ago when I was taking an easy pace along
a country road. The leaves were in color and the weather was crisp and
clear. The only other traffic I saw on that road was another cyclist,
and he seemed as euphoric as I was.

Another great memory was the day I did a local climb about 20% faster
than ever before -- it was as if there was a gale-force wind at my
back. For 15 minutes I felt like Lance, Pantani or Virenque: it was
priceless.

I've done some reasonably fast descents - up to ~50MPH in some places -
but my favorite memories are of tranquil rides and challenging ascents.
JR

SlowRider said:

Sam H. said:

There are some decent pictures here:
http://www.hawaiihighways.com/photos-observatories-roads.htm

The terrain in the lower right of this picture was similar to the

road

Quoted message said:

surface:
http://www.samhuffman.com/albums/hawaii_dec_2004/cached/IMG_3291.html

But nothing that shows the grade or the loose stuff on top.

Definitely a

Quoted message said:

worthwhile ride, or drive at least, just for the views. And as you
noted, it's always good to increase one's max altitude 🙂

Physical difficulties aside, it looks like a great ride!

I definitely agree, but next time I'll rent a mountain bike...

Sam

John Everett said:

Bill Baka said:

On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 02:59:57 GMT, Bill Sornson
<[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Sam H. wrote:

> I wonder if we bigger guys suffer more at elevation than little folks?
> My wife isn't a cyclist or hiker, but we got about equally winded when
> walking around on Mauna Kea. I'm 76", 215 pounds, and can keep up with
> most when climbing at lower elevations, but felt like a 6 year old on
> a tricycle would pass me on this ride.

Don't know about the ascent, but Bill Baka would hit 50 MPH on the way
down.

(Sorry, Bill, couldn't resist 🙂 )

Hey, no problem, because I would try. Riding motorcycles
has made me somewhat reckless on a bike, something like too
much going fast and having fun. At 10,000 feet 50 MPH should be
a possibility with less air resistance. Just watch out for
the cliffs you can ride off of. I know the safety
minded will jump me but some of my experiences are really
memorable due to the "Oh, my God!" factor. Nobody really
thinks back on a routine training ride and thinks about the
memories, but some of the 'almost got killed' rides I do.
Some of the motorcycle/bicycle + mud events are memorable,
if only because of the absurd things I have tried.
Remember the guy that skied down Everest with a parachute behind
him to keep from going past 100 MPH? I think he was a famous
Japanese daredevil. Anyone care to fill in on high altitude descents?
I ride, I post, I still have to grow up.
My wife says I have no common sense, but then
again, I am not common (collective sigh of relief).
Living life differently.
Bill B

Speaking of Japanese daredevils, does anyone else here know what
"Baka" means in Japanese?

jeverett3<AT>earthlink<DOT>net http://home.earthlink.net/~jeverett3

Yeah, but I'm polish and those darned Japanese can't translate very well.
Bill

--
bbaka

SlowRider said:

Bill Baka said:

memorable due to the "Oh, my God!" factor. Nobody really
thinks back on a routine training ride and thinks about the
memories, but some of the 'almost got killed' rides I do.

Just a difference in what you like, I guess. Some of my best memories
are of routine training rides on gorgeous days. I still remember a
fall ride I did about 3 years ago when I was taking an easy pace along
a country road. The leaves were in color and the weather was crisp and
clear. The only other traffic I saw on that road was another cyclist,
and he seemed as euphoric as I was.

Another great memory was the day I did a local climb about 20% faster
than ever before -- it was as if there was a gale-force wind at my
back. For 15 minutes I felt like Lance, Pantani or Virenque: it was
priceless.

I've done some reasonably fast descents - up to ~50MPH in some places -
but my favorite memories are of tranquil rides and challenging ascents.
JR

I am with you on the peaceful bliss, but really, 30 years from now, will
you really remember the ride? The adrenalin moments are very hard to
forget so you should remember the climb longer than the fall ride.
Once in a while I will fall into the passive, blissful rider mode, but
usually not. Personality flaw, I guess, too much type 'A' in me, but I
will stop to watch 2 deer or some squirrels playing.
You seem to have a new goal in beating your hill climb by a few
percent more than that 20%. There is always something.
Bill B

--
bbaka

Bill Baka said:

John Everett said:

Bill Baka said:

On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 02:59:57 GMT, Bill Sornson
<[email hidden]>
wrote:

> Sam H. wrote:
>
>> I wonder if we bigger guys suffer more at elevation than little folks?
>> My wife isn't a cyclist or hiker, but we got about equally winded when
>> walking around on Mauna Kea. I'm 76", 215 pounds, and can keep up with
>> most when climbing at lower elevations, but felt like a 6 year old on
>> a tricycle would pass me on this ride.
>
> Don't know about the ascent, but Bill Baka would hit 50 MPH on the way
> down.
>
> (Sorry, Bill, couldn't resist 🙂 )
>
>
Hey, no problem, because I would try. Riding motorcycles
has made me somewhat reckless on a bike, something like too
much going fast and having fun. At 10,000 feet 50 MPH should be
a possibility with less air resistance. Just watch out for
the cliffs you can ride off of. I know the safety
minded will jump me but some of my experiences are really
memorable due to the "Oh, my God!" factor. Nobody really
thinks back on a routine training ride and thinks about the
memories, but some of the 'almost got killed' rides I do.
Some of the motorcycle/bicycle + mud events are memorable,
if only because of the absurd things I have tried.
Remember the guy that skied down Everest with a parachute behind
him to keep from going past 100 MPH? I think he was a famous
Japanese daredevil. Anyone care to fill in on high altitude descents?
I ride, I post, I still have to grow up.
My wife says I have no common sense, but then
again, I am not common (collective sigh of relief).
Living life differently.
Bill B

Speaking of Japanese daredevils, does anyone else here know what
"Baka" means in Japanese?

jeverett3<AT>earthlink<DOT>net http://home.earthlink.net/~jeverett3

Yeah, but I'm polish and those darned Japanese can't translate very well.
Bill

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that Bill also knows that "Baka" in
Japanese means "Fool".

jeverett3<AT>earthlink<DOT>net http://home.earthlink.net/~jeverett3

John Everett said:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Speaking of Japanese daredevils, does anyone else here know what
"Baka" means in Japanese?

jeverett3<AT>earthlink<DOT>net http://home.earthlink.net/~jeverett3

Yeah, but I'm polish and those darned Japanese can't translate very
well.
Bill

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that Bill also knows that "Baka" in
Japanese means "Fool".

jeverett3<AT>earthlink<DOT>net http://home.earthlink.net/~jeverett3

I have known that since gradeschool since the kamikaze pilots/planes
were called Baka by the japanese themselves. They just never told the
pilots
before they went out and killed themselves.
Have fun for 2 weeks, then it's work again.
Bill B

--
bbaka