Max HR vs Lactate Threshold

Camilo said:

All this talk about Max HR, the worthlessness of formulas and the
difficulty and pain involved in actually trying to measure it.

Why not just use the LT?  I believe, by definition, it is the average
heart rate during a 1 hour time trial or race in which the person is
actually trying his/her hardest.  Plus, if one is inclined to actually
measure it through blood work, there are places it can be done for a
fairly moderate price without agony.  But again, I believe it is
actually defined on the basis of average HR as above.

I believe the various training zones and plans can be developed on the
basis of LT rather than max HR, no?

LT is the maximum effort level that can be maintained without a
continous buildup of lactate. That is to say lactic acid is not
produced any faster than it can be broken down, so the blood lactate
level remains constant.

Meausing LT is WAY harder to do than determining max HR, plus LT
changes with training, and HR is only a secondary way to track LT.

As far as the accuracy of max HR guidlines (for those afraid to just
ride hard to see what their max HR is), I have only ever heard of
those underestimating folk's max HR's. Some guys I ride with have have
max HR's around 200 when the 220-age says it should be 185 or so. And
similar, while most are pretty close. But I don't know of anyone I
ride with how has a max HR significantly below the 220-age guide. That
means that by using 220-age you may be short-changing yourself, but
unlikely over extending yourself.

Joseph

I bought a Cateye HR watch for keeping an eye on my health riding a
29er in the rockies not for training. For recreational and commuting
training I used Carmichael/Armstrong's training manual to boost LT "in
the areas I was weak in." EG, standing sprints from stop. C/A know
what that's about and the manual exercises work right off. Max heart
rate? I'm 62 - who needs max heart rate ? My interest is LT leading to
max CUMULATIVE heart rate.

I am intrigued by Kunich's statement "there's no difference between
long and short distances ridden slowly or quickly" paraphrazing off
course in that my heart rate, and my weight, does not rise very far
riding or running hard to a level where understanding what my
empirical HR is now or shall be quantified with a Cateye HR.

That kinda loops back to LT where extending the LT is ok after
establishing an average comfortable and quickly recoverable from, HR.
Touring training, exercise but not overtrain.

Racers may find this dumb. In a cold spring, there are more than a few
trained MLB types over extended despite years of experience, the cycle
doctor, pistol pete. . . The list is extensive and snot sneerabble.

asking a question not taking a position: is max or average max heart
rate directly related to LT ? Are HR trainees saying ignore stretching
LT and push on to Max HR where Max HR blood flow provides the energy
source for stretching LT?

datakoll said:

I bought a Cateye HR watch for keeping an eye on my health riding a
29er in the rockies not for training. For recreational and commuting
training I used Carmichael/Armstrong's training manual to boost LT "in
the areas I was weak in." EG, standing sprints from stop. C/A know
what that's about and the manual exercises work right off. Max heart
rate? I'm 62 - who needs max heart rate ? My interest is LT leading to
max CUMULATIVE heart rate.

I am intrigued by Kunich's statement "there's no difference between
long and short distances ridden slowly or quickly" paraphrazing off
course in that my heart rate, and my weight, does not rise very far
riding or running hard to a level where understanding what my
empirical HR  is now or shall be quantified with a Cateye HR.

That kinda loops back to LT where extending the LT is ok after
establishing an average comfortable and quickly recoverable  from, HR.
Touring training, exercise but not overtrain.

Racers may find this dumb. In a cold spring, there are more than a few
trained MLB types over extended despite years of experience, the cycle
doctor, pistol pete. . . The list is extensive and snot sneerabble.

asking a question not taking a position: is max or average max heart
rate directly related to LT ? Are HR trainees saying ignore stretching
LT and push on to Max HR where Max HR blood flow provides the energy
source for stretching LT?

LT has essentially nothing to do with HR, max or otherwise. HR can be
a useful way to pace to try to hold effort levels at LT, but there are
so many variables like temperature, stress, drift, etc that you have
to adjust for these. And to do so requires enough guessing that it
almost doesn't make sense anymore.

LT is governed mostly by things happening in the muslces. A high LT is
from having muscles that can make the most out of the oxygen delivered
to them, and mucles that can break down lactate fast.

Joseph

what is "normal" for an upper exercise limit?
muscles giving out first,
or heart rate topping out as a limit?

datakoll said:

what is "normal" for an upper exercise limit?
muscles giving out first,
or heart rate topping out as a limit?

I think it depends on conditions and one's conditioning.

Here's my experience:

In my 20's I was a fairly strong cyclist. Moved from sea level to 6000
feet. First several months, legs felt fine, but I want to puke with
moderately hard /apparent/ exertion. That is, the brain says "you can
ride much faster than this" and the lungs say "Oh [censored]". Clearly
lungs/heart or cardiovascular system in general was giving out first.

Fifteen months of altitude training later, I flew back to sea level for
an "event" ride. On the ride, it was nearly impossible to get out of
breath, but if I pushed (too) hard, my legs felt like jelly. Here the
muscles were giving out first.

I think this is why elite coaches say "sleep high, train low" so you can
stress both systems (cardio and muscles) separately to their limits.

Mark J. (back to sea level decades later)

datakoll said:

asking a question not taking a position: is max or average max heart
rate directly related to LT ? Are HR trainees saying ignore stretching
LT and push on to Max HR where Max HR blood flow provides the energy
source for stretching LT?

Might be easier to understand if you made it more explicit that you
are referring to HR at LT, because comparing a specific concentration
of lactate in blood to a heart rate is like comparing appl^Wpowerbars
to gatorade.

My impression is that these days most people serious about exercise
physiology do indeed recommend training zones based on the LT HR
rather than max HR, exactly because the distance between the two is
quite variable individually (and even in the same individual at
different states of training), and the main point of training zones is
to control how much anaerobic (if at all) an exercise is supposed to be.

The advantage of max HR based zones is that max HR is easy to measure
and even easier to estimate semi-reliably and so it is much easier to
recommend some general training zones based on that, no lab work needed...

datakoll said:

what is "normal" for an upper exercise limit?
muscles giving out first,
or heart rate topping out as a limit?

A little of both, and as age increases, HR can more often become the
limiting factor. And training changes the balance too.

Riding along at a steady easy level, HR is low and is pumping some
amount of blood and thus delivering some amount of oxygen to the
working muscles. The muscles are able to use this oxygen to do work.
But some of the muscles do not get all the oxygen they need to do the
work asked of them. So they work anaerobically and generate lactate.
This is only a small amount, and the body is able to easily deal with
this lactate before it builds up.

At a higher intensisty (more power) level, more oxygen is needed, so
the HR picks up to deliver more oxygen. But still not all the muscles
get all the oxygen they need, so they produce more lactate. If the
amount of lactate produced can be used by the body so that the amount
of lactate in the blood does not keep rising, the effort level is said
to be below the LT. If more lactate is produced than can be disposed
of, the level of lactate in the blood keeps rising, even though the
effort level remains constant. This is above LT. This is not
sustainable because eventually with high enough concentrations, the
hydrogen ions released as part of the lactic acid creation interfere
with the mucels ability to do work, and it cannot continue to produc
ethe same power, so you slow down. You may have slowed down already,
because unpleasantness ensues usually well befor ethis point.

But LT isn't at max HR, and more work can be done (power generated)
above LT, but just for a limited time. The body can still supply more
ans use more oxygen to do work above LT, but it is inhibited from
maintaining this level of output for very long. This is also different
from peak power, which is more akin to brute strength and usually is
at levels well above LT.

Joseph

?
"The advantage of max HR based zones is that max HR is easy to
measure
and even easier to estimate semi-reliably and so it is much easier to
recommend some general training zones based on that, no lab work
needed... "

athletes may not know what they're about ?
yeah that sounds right. and from a distance with the new Cateye HR
still inbox, MaxHR sounds a bit nutty. Cutting the straight at Road
Atlanta was nutty...
I am curious about cycling posture excerise and LT giving total body
LT
opposed to swimming posture exercise giving total body LT
and effects on cycling effectiveness
and effects on muscle specialization, not only for Boonen et al but in
the general cycling population.
Different strokes.

shall get back to you on altitude. No problem hiking, but for me
hiking isnot cycling LT. Your thought suggests the usual small errors
leading to...restraint.
"technical" means straight downhill 5 degrees from "sheer vertical
wall" right? furrowed with perp ditches 3' deep x 1' wide

datakoll said:

?
"The advantage of max HR based zones is that max HR is easy to
measure
and even easier to estimate semi-reliably and so it is much easier to
recommend some general training zones based on that, no lab work
needed... "

athletes may not know what they're about ?
yeah that sounds right. and from a distance with the new Cateye HR
still inbox, MaxHR sounds a bit nutty. Cutting the straight at Road
Atlanta was nutty...
I am curious about cycling posture excerise and LT giving total body
LT
opposed to swimming posture exercise giving total body LT
and effects on cycling effectiveness
and effects on muscle specialization, not only for Boonen et al but in
the general cycling population.
Different strokes.

shall get back to you on altitude. No problem hiking, but for me
hiking isnot cycling LT. Your thought suggests the usual small errors
leading to...restraint.
"technical" means straight downhill 5 degrees from "sheer vertical
wall" right? furrowed with perp ditches 3' deep x 1' wide

Check out:

http://home.hia.no/%7Estephens/exphys.htm

Joseph

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Quoted post said:

datakoll said:

what is "normal" for an upper exercise limit?
muscles giving out first,
or heart rate topping out as a limit?

A little of both, and as age increases, HR can more often become the
limiting factor. And training changes the balance too.

Riding along at a steady easy level, HR is low and is pumping some
amount of blood and thus delivering some amount of oxygen to the
working muscles. The muscles are able to use this oxygen to do work.
But some of the muscles do not get all the oxygen they need to do the
work asked of them. So they work anaerobically and generate lactate.
This is only a small amount, and the body is able to easily deal with
this lactate before it builds up.

At a higher intensisty (more power) level, more oxygen is needed, so
the HR picks up to deliver more oxygen. But still not all the muscles
get all the oxygen they need, so they produce more lactate. If the
amount of lactate produced can be used by the body so that the amount
of lactate in the blood does not keep rising, the effort level is said
to be below the LT. If more lactate is produced than can be disposed
of, the level of lactate in the blood keeps rising, even though the
effort level remains constant. This is above LT. This is not
sustainable because eventually with high enough concentrations, the
hydrogen ions released as part of the lactic acid creation interfere
with the mucels ability to do work, and it cannot continue to produc
ethe same power, so you slow down. You may have slowed down already,
because unpleasantness ensues usually well befor ethis point.

But LT isn't at max HR, and more work can be done (power generated)
above LT, but just for a limited time. The body can still supply more
ans use more oxygen to do work above LT, but it is inhibited from
maintaining this level of output for very long. This is also different
from peak power, which is more akin to brute strength and usually is
at levels well above LT.

One addition. As you state, the problem with exercise at
high levels is acidosis. Production of lactic acid buffers
the H+, and the lactic acid is then transported out of the
cell. Check out
Biochemistry of exercise-induced metabolic acidosis.
Robert A. Robergs,Farzenah Ghiasvand,and Daryl Parker

<http://ajpregu.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/287/3/R502>

--
Michael Press

Michael Press said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Quoted post said:

datakoll said:

what is "normal" for an upper exercise limit?
muscles giving out first,
or heart rate topping out as a limit?

Quoted message said:

A little of both, and as age increases, HR can more often become the
limiting factor. And training changes the balance too.

Quoted message said:

Riding along at a steady easy level, HR is low and is pumping some
amount of blood and thus delivering some amount of oxygen to the
working muscles. The muscles are able to use this oxygen to do work.
But some of the muscles do not get all the oxygen they need to do the
work asked of them. So they work anaerobically and generate lactate.
This is only a small amount, and the body is able to easily deal with
this lactate before it builds up.

Quoted message said:

At a higher intensisty (more power) level, more oxygen is needed, so
the HR picks up to deliver more oxygen. But still not all the muscles
get all the oxygen they need, so they produce more lactate. If the
amount of lactate produced can be used by the body so that  the amount
of lactate in the blood does not keep rising, the effort level is said
to be below the LT. If more lactate is produced than can be disposed
of, the level of lactate in the blood keeps rising, even though the
effort level remains constant. This is above LT. This is not
sustainable because eventually with high enough concentrations, the
hydrogen ions released as part of the lactic acid creation interfere
with the mucels ability to do work, and it cannot continue to produc
ethe same power, so you slow down. You may have slowed down already,
because unpleasantness ensues usually well befor ethis point.

Quoted message said:

But LT isn't at max HR, and more work can be done (power generated)
above LT, but just for a limited time. The body can still supply more
ans use more oxygen to do work above LT, but it is inhibited from
maintaining this level of output for very long. This is also different
from peak power, which is more akin to brute strength and usually is
at levels well above LT.

One addition. As you state, the problem with exercise at
high levels is acidosis. Production of lactic acid buffers
the H+, and the lactic acid is then transported out of the
cell. Check out
Biochemistry of exercise-induced metabolic acidosis.
Robert A. Robergs,Farzenah Ghiasvand,and Daryl Parker

<http://ajpregu.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/287/3/R502>

--
Michael Press

That is quite interesting. So it sounds like muscles are inhibited by
reaching some point of not having enough lactate to buffer the surplus
H+. In a way that explains how some sports like XC skiing can have
very high lactate levels. That is to say high lactate leves thmeselves
ar enot the problem, but lack of enough local lactate production to
absorb the H+. With more muscles in on the act, the blood lactate
levels can go quite high, but muscles are not inhibited until
shortages are seen at the local level.

Or did I misunderstand?

Joseph

Joseph

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Quoted post said:

Michael Press said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Quoted post said:

On Apr 16, 1:41 am, datakoll <[email hidden]> wrote:
> what is "normal" for an upper exercise limit?
> muscles giving out first,
> or heart rate topping out as a limit?

Quoted message said:

A little of both, and as age increases, HR can more often become the
limiting factor. And training changes the balance too.

Quoted message said:

Riding along at a steady easy level, HR is low and is pumping some
amount of blood and thus delivering some amount of oxygen to the
working muscles. The muscles are able to use this oxygen to do work.
But some of the muscles do not get all the oxygen they need to do the
work asked of them. So they work anaerobically and generate lactate.
This is only a small amount, and the body is able to easily deal with
this lactate before it builds up.

Quoted message said:

At a higher intensisty (more power) level, more oxygen is needed, so
the HR picks up to deliver more oxygen. But still not all the muscles
get all the oxygen they need, so they produce more lactate. If the
amount of lactate produced can be used by the body so that  the amount
of lactate in the blood does not keep rising, the effort level is said
to be below the LT. If more lactate is produced than can be disposed
of, the level of lactate in the blood keeps rising, even though the
effort level remains constant. This is above LT. This is not
sustainable because eventually with high enough concentrations, the
hydrogen ions released as part of the lactic acid creation interfere
with the mucels ability to do work, and it cannot continue to produc
ethe same power, so you slow down. You may have slowed down already,
because unpleasantness ensues usually well befor ethis point.

Quoted message said:

But LT isn't at max HR, and more work can be done (power generated)
above LT, but just for a limited time. The body can still supply more
ans use more oxygen to do work above LT, but it is inhibited from
maintaining this level of output for very long. This is also different
from peak power, which is more akin to brute strength and usually is
at levels well above LT.

One addition. As you state, the problem with exercise at
high levels is acidosis. Production of lactic acid buffers
the H+, and the lactic acid is then transported out of the
cell. Check out
Biochemistry of exercise-induced metabolic acidosis.
Robert A. Robergs,Farzenah Ghiasvand,and Daryl Parker

<http://ajpregu.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/287/3/R502>

That is quite interesting. So it sounds like muscles are inhibited by
reaching some point of not having enough lactate to buffer the surplus
H+. In a way that explains how some sports like XC skiing can have
very high lactate levels. That is to say high lactate leves thmeselves
ar enot the problem, but lack of enough local lactate production to
absorb the H+. With more muscles in on the act, the blood lactate
levels can go quite high, but muscles are not inhibited until
shortages are seen at the local level.

Or did I misunderstand?

You misunderstand. Aerobic metabolism rate has a bottleneck
at the point where H+ is dealt with. H+, ADP, and other
stuff migrate into the mitochondria where they disappear
and ATP is produced. The ATP is hydrolyzed in the cell
for energy, producing ADP and H+. In a skeletal muscle
cell the hydrolysis of ATP is used to contract the muscle.
High levels of exertion produce more H+ than can be
respired in the mitochondria. The excess H+ must be dealt
with. One way of dealing with H+ is to buffer it with
lactate to form lactic acid. Lactic acid is not the
villain; H+ is. Figure 12 in the paper I linked to.

--
Michael Press