Max side load of a 20 inch rim?

"Ben" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<6OGzc.46610$Ds.46416@clgrps12>...

Quoted message said:

I was wondering what the max load (side) is of a 20 inch
wheel, for that matter the side load of a 24 and 26 would
be good too.

Ben

Excellent question. However, there's a lot more variables
than just size. For instance: Rim width Rim cross-section
Rim material Spoke tension Number of spokes Spoke bracing
angle ... and a few more than I've probably missed.

Jeff

Hummm, good point, but is there a starting point for say a
standard BMX rim and one for a standard Mountain Bike rim?

Please dont ask me what is standard... lets start with a
Walmart cheapie rim and I will go from there.

Ben

"Jeff Wills" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Ben" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<6OGzc.46610$Ds.46416@clgrps12>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I was wondering what the max load (side) is of a 20 inch
wheel, for that matter the side load of a 24 and 26
would be good too.

Ben

Excellent question. However, there's a lot more variables
than just size. For instance: Rim width Rim cross-section
Rim material Spoke tension Number of spokes Spoke bracing
angle ... and a few more than I've probably missed.

Jeff

Any starting point is irrelevant if you're just asking
about the rim. A spoked wheel's strength is in the tension
of the spokes.

If you want resistance to side loads and only want to
compare rims, wider is better, thicker is better, and
aluminum is better. Larger diameter wheels will be weaker.
Beyond that, you're on your own.

Jeff

"Ben" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<rpYzc.48217$Ds.46630@clgrps12>...

Quoted message said:

Hummm, good point, but is there a starting point for say a
standard BMX rim and one for a standard Mountain Bike rim?

Please dont ask me what is standard... lets start with a
Walmart cheapie rim and I will go from there.

Ben

"Jeff Wills" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Ben" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<6OGzc.46610$Ds.46416@clgrps12>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I was wondering what the max load (side) is of a 20
inch wheel, for that matter the side load of a 24 and
26 would be good too.

Ben

Excellent question. However, there's a lot more
variables than just size. For instance: Rim width Rim
cross-section Rim material Spoke tension Number of
spokes Spoke bracing angle ... and a few more than I've
probably missed.

Jeff

I really must work on how I word things and be
explicitly specific

I am looking for a good guess (if not exact numbers) of the
maximum side load a bike wheel (preferably a cheap 20" bmx
wheel) can take before becoming a pretzel (i.e catastrophic
failure and or but not including warping). This includes but
is not limited to (ha-ha) nuts, washers, axel, axel
bearings, bearing keepers, hub, spokes (likely 32 in total),
spoke nipples (32 to match previous item), rim, rim rubber
band to keep the nipples from the tube, tube (if used, if
not strike last comments, preferably a standard tube not a
shrader valve tube), and tire (preferably a slick as it is a
road bike). One more thing, I will be using 14mm and above
size axles before this deviates us from the current question
leading us into many many debates on stuff other than the
question at hand.

What I am trying to do here is design a frame (trike) and on
the rear axel (two wheels on this axel, maybe a bad choice
of words here again 'on the rear weldment assembly, which
are attached 2 axels'😉 figure out the necessary strength of
the rear weldment assembly. These wheels (on the rear
weldment assembly) do not lean, they will be vertical at all
times and should I hit a turn at a high rate of speed. I
know approximately how many G's I generate on this said high
rate of speed turn, I want to know how much the wheel will
take before warping. I then will take this data and build
the frame to take the side load the wheel can, using
appropriate safety factors.

Before I get a lecture on the theories on design and that I
may be over my head in this, I am a experienced aircraft
designer and have FEA and CFD tools to help me in this
venture as well as experience in doing the calcs by hand.

I am not trying to be smart here I just want to be specific
so I can find out a resource of side loading capabilities of
a bike wheel or how to calculate it without having to rig up
a test and determine it my self.

Ben

"Jeff Wills" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Any starting point is irrelevant if you're just asking
about the rim. A spoked wheel's strength is in the tension
of the spokes.

If you want resistance to side loads and only want to
compare rims, wider is better, thicker is better, and
aluminum is better. Larger diameter wheels will be weaker.
Beyond that, you're on your own.

Jeff

"Ben" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<rpYzc.48217$Ds.46630@clgrps12>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Hummm, good point, but is there a starting point for say
a standard BMX

rim

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and one for a standard Mountain Bike rim?

Please dont ask me what is standard... lets start with a
Walmart cheapie

rim

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and I will go from there.

Ben

"Jeff Wills" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Ben" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<6OGzc.46610$Ds.46416@clgrps12>...

Quoted message said:

> I was wondering what the max load (side) is of a 20
> inch wheel, for

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> matter the side load of a 24 and 26 would be good
> too.
>
> Ben

Excellent question. However, there's a lot more
variables than just

size.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

For instance: Rim width Rim cross-section Rim material
Spoke tension Number of spokes Spoke bracing angle ...
and a few more than I've probably missed.

Jeff

"Ben" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:7s0Ac.45932$eA.1307@clgrps13...

Quoted message said:

I really must work on how I word things and be explicitly
specific

I am looking for a good guess (if not exact numbers) of
the maximum side load a bike wheel (preferably a cheap 20"
bmx wheel) can take before becoming a pretzel (i.e
catastrophic failure and or but not including warping).
... I am not trying to be smart here I just want to be
specific so I can find out a resource of side loading
capabilities of a bike wheel or how to calculate it
without having to rig up a test and determine it my self.

It's got to be easier to pick up a kid's/BMX bike at the
dump Saturday morning, clamp the axle to something solid and
load the thing to failure. Your test rig is just the
something solid, a bathroom scale, and a tape measure.
Because you don't really have any idea how it will fail
(rim, spokes, axle, housing, etc.), you're wasting your time
speculating. One bike gives you two wheels, and by the time
you break them, you'll be a real world expert on lateral
loading of trike tires.

My guess is that your trike rear axle support will be stiffness-
limited, and the structure you build to get decent, safe
handling will be far stronger than you need to resist
"catastrophic failure."

free advice,

Fred

"Ben" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:7s0Ac.45932$eA.1307@clgrps13...

Quoted message said:

I really must work on how I word things and be explicitly
specific

I am looking for a good guess (if not exact numbers) of
the maximum side load a bike wheel (preferably a cheap 20"
bmx wheel) can take before becoming a pretzel (i.e
catastrophic failure and or but not including warping).
... I am not trying to be smart here I just want to be
specific so I can find out a resource of side loading
capabilities of a bike wheel or how to calculate it
without having to rig up a test and determine it my self.

For most wheels the correct spoke tension is slightly above
100 kg force. Somewhat above this loading the rim cannot
correctly support the loads and crinkles. If the load is
uneven across spokes the spokes can pull through the hub
flange. The spokes themselves do not break until
considerably higher loadings are reached.

See The Book for more detail.

So: take your intended wheel, count the spokes and measure
the spoke angle from flange to rim. Simple trig will show
you how much tension there is to support the rim against a
side load.

I'd expect that a 48-spoke BMX wheel with a wide hub would
withstand side loads at least as well as anything else
commonly encountered in the bike world.
--
"Do stairs, stairs, and more stairs, wherever you can
find them."
- Jim Roberts in rec.backcountry

Ben said:

should I hit a turn at a high rate of speed. I know
approximately how many G's I generate on this said high
rate of speed turn, I want to know how much the wheel
will take before warping. I then will take this data and
build the frame to take the side load the wheel can,
using appropriate safety factors.

Surely you're limitted by friction to a sufficiently low
number that teh design of lateral strength is not
particularly significant - ruggedness would be more of a
criterion?

That is, assuming you're not going so fast that you develop
any aerodynamic down-force, and assuming you don't have
tacky tyres (both reasonable assumptions, I think), you
can't get more than your combined body & vehicle weight
vertical force on a wheel (other than transients) and you
won't get a coefficient of friction more than 1, so say,
design it for 120kg transverse force (unless you're
particularly heavy).

I don't think transients will generate transverse loads,
because I think the tyre will flex (in a roll-off-the-rim
type way) when subject to transient transverse loads, and
such a transient will not get to teh frame.

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|

I live in Canada (Ontario) too so will use Cdn prices
and all the parts are available from Toronto, to BC
and Montreal.

First, I use standard 20", 48 spoke BMX wheels with 14mm
axles that can be bought anywhere from about $15 wholesale
up to about $100. I don't know what the spoke tension is
because I buy the rims already assembled, and I've never had
a wheel fail, or heard of one of these wheels fail, on a
trike yet. I undo the wheel, jam and bearing nuts and shift
the axles over to one side as far as they can go. This is
usually in the range of having about
1.75" to 2" of axle sticking out past the bearing/jam nuts
on one side. To secure the axles to the bottom of the king
pins, I use plain old 3/4" ,ild steel tubing with 1/8"
thick wall. I cut a piece about 1.25" long and weld it
(both MIG and TIG) at the appropriate angle to the bottom
of the king pin bolt. I take a 35/64" drill bit (I don't
have a 14mm drill bit 🙂) and drill out the center to
accept the 14mm axle. Just about a perfect fit. As for
strength and wheel security/tightness:

- my brother is 6'4" and weighs 265lbs. He rides my trikes
all the time and the wheels are fine
- a friend is 6'1", weighs 260lbs and he puts the trikes up
on two wheels and rides them around like that just about
daily. He says it's a "crowd pleaser" 🙂
- I am 6'2", weigh ~235lbs and ride fast and hard most of
the time. I have taken 90 degree road corners on narrow 2
lane roads at ~45kph - no problems at all. I also ride the
trikes around occasionally on 2 wheels, sometimes at
speeds approaching 30kph. Again, no problems.
- we all have ridden the trikes to relatively high speeds
(approaching 75kph) and our roads and sidewalks are not
always as smooth and crack/pothole free as they could be.

While I have to watch the wheel's axle nuts to make sure
they stay tight (I use red and blue Loctite), I have never
had an axle housing stretch/deform on me, I have never had
an axle bend or break. The 48 spoke 20s might flex
1/4" when riding hard corners or up on two wheels. They're
very tough it would seem. I never hear the spokes clicking
or pinging and I would think that those kinds of noises
would be evidence of rim deformation or wheel problems
(not an engineer - so don't quote me on that). The only
things I worry about are the 26" rear wheels. Again
though, they are standard steel and aluminum 36 spoke rims
that can be bought for around $35 and come already spoked
and ready to use once a freewheel/cassette has been spun
on. While people have commented on how much the rear wheel
flexes while up on two wheels or during hard cornering,
again, I have never had a failure and hear no spoke sounds
that I would associate with problems. I have a small magnet-
powered tail light that has the magnet mounted about 3/4"
away from the light housing. When cornering hard at speed,
the rear wheel definitely flexes enough for the magnet on
the spokes to come in contact with the housing. I tried a
27" wheel and it was definitely not strong enough for
trike use with the standard narrow hub. My friend and I
are going to machine some custom x-long 36h hubs and make
a couple "triple 27"" race trikes.

I don't know what your planned loading is going to be, but I
have build enough trikes like this and put enough KM on them
to have pretty much 100% confidence in the BMX wheels, the
standard plain-Jane 26" wheels (36 hole) and the mild steel
axle housings.

Hope this helps. Post pics when it's done 🙂

Quoted message said:

I really must work on how I word things and be explicitly
specific

I am looking for a good guess (if not exact numbers) of
the maximum side load a bike wheel (preferably a cheap 20"
bmx wheel) can take before becoming a pretzel (i.e
catastrophic failure and or but not including warping).
This includes but is not limited to (ha-ha) nuts, washers,
axel, axel bearings, bearing keepers, hub, spokes (likely
32 in total), spoke nipples (32 to match previous item),
rim, rim rubber band to keep the nipples from the tube,
tube (if used, if not strike last comments, preferably a
standard tube not a shrader valve tube), and tire
(preferably

a

Quoted message said:

slick as it is a road bike). One more thing, I will be
using 14mm and

above

Quoted message said:

size axles before this deviates us from the current
question leading us

into

Quoted message said:

many many debates on stuff other than the question
at hand.

What I am trying to do here is design a frame (trike) and
on the rear axel (two wheels on this axel, maybe a bad
choice of words here again 'on the rear weldment
assembly, which are attached 2 axels'😉 figure out the
necessary strength of the rear weldment assembly. These
wheels (on the

rear

Quoted message said:

weldment assembly) do not lean, they will be vertical at
all times and should I hit a turn at a high rate of speed.
I know approximately how many G's I generate on this said
high rate of speed turn, I want to know how

much

Quoted message said:

the wheel will take before warping. I then will take this
data and build

the

Quoted message said:

frame to take the side load the wheel can, using
appropriate safety

factors.

Quoted message said:

Before I get a lecture on the theories on design and that
I may be over my head in this, I am a experienced aircraft
designer and have FEA and CFD tools to help me in this
venture as well as experience in doing the calcs

by

Quoted message said:

hand.

I am not trying to be smart here I just want to be
specific so I can find out a resource of side loading
capabilities of a bike wheel or how to calculate it
without having to rig up a test and determine it my self.

Mark South said:

"Ben" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:7s0Ac.45932$eA.1307@clgrps13...

Quoted message said:

I really must work on how I word things and be explicitly
specific

I am looking for a good guess (if not exact numbers) of
the maximum side load a bike wheel (preferably a cheap 20"
bmx wheel) can take before becoming a pretzel (i.e
catastrophic failure and or but not including warping).
... I am not trying to be smart here I just want to be
specific so I can find out a resource of side loading
capabilities of a bike wheel or how to calculate it
without having to rig up a test and determine it my self.

For most wheels the correct spoke tension is slightly
above 100 kg force. Somewhat above this loading the rim
cannot correctly support the loads and crinkles. If the
load is uneven across spokes the spokes can pull through
the hub flange. The spokes themselves do not break until
considerably higher loadings are reached.

See The Book for more detail.

So: take your intended wheel, count the spokes and measure
the spoke angle from flange to rim. Simple trig will show
you how much tension there is to support the rim against a
side load.

I'd expect that a 48-spoke BMX wheel with a wide hub would
withstand side loads at least as well as anything else
commonly encountered in the bike world.

The author of "The Book" has a well known preference for ISO
622-mm size Mavic MA-2 36-spoke rims with double butted
spokes. I would suspect that a smaller diameter, wide, heavy
duty rim (e.g. ISO 406-mm Sun Rhyno-Lite or Velocity Taipan)
could withstand higher spoke tension before exhibiting a
"potato chip" failure.

Another approach would be to copy what works. Established
trike builders such as Greenspeed use wheels such as I have
mentioned above with good results. Unless you are attempting
to achieve minimum weight, refinement through analysis and
testing is not needed. The heavier stronger wheel will of
course provide a larger factor of safety for occasional
extreme dynamic loading that may occur.

--
Tom Sherman – Quad City Area

Ian Smith <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Ben said:

should I hit a turn at a high rate of speed. I know
approximately how many G's I generate on this said high
rate of speed turn, I want to know how much the wheel
will take before warping. I then will take this data
and build the frame to take the side load the wheel
can, using appropriate safety factors.

Surely you're limitted by friction to a sufficiently low
number that teh design of lateral strength is not
particularly significant - ruggedness would be more of a
criterion?

Well, I've seen Electrathon cars slide sideways around flat
corners. Since they're using 20" bicycle wheels (both spoked
and plastic "mag"😉, are heavier, and have lower centers of
gravity than HPV's, I think they're putting greater sideways
stress on the wheels. Conventional spoked wheels are fine.

Ben, you're asking for quantifiable numbers for lateral
strength. To my knowledge, this data doesn't exist. Also,
there's *no* reason for it to exist, because bicycle wheels
are typically not loaded in that direction. Lateral strength
is a non-issue in the bicycle world.

Also, in my experience with HPV trikes, you'll find that
many will go up on two wheels at high cornering speeds. Most
HPV trike wheels are capable of taking this stress.

Jeff Wills

"Ben" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:7s0Ac.45932$eA.1307@clgrps13...

Quoted message said:

I really must work on how I word things and be explicitly
specific

I am looking for a good guess (if not exact numbers) of
the maximum side load a bike wheel (preferably a cheap 20"
bmx wheel) can take before becoming a pretzel (i.e
catastrophic failure and or but not including warping).
This includes but is not limited to (ha-ha) nuts, washers,
axel, axel bearings, bearing keepers, hub, spokes (likely
32 in total), spoke nipples (32 to match previous item),
rim, rim rubber band to keep the nipples from the tube,
tube (if used, if not strike last comments, preferably a
standard tube not a shrader valve tube), and tire
(preferably

a

Quoted message said:

slick as it is a road bike). One more thing, I will be
using 14mm and

above

Quoted message said:

size axles before this deviates us from the current
question leading us

into

Quoted message said:

many many debates on stuff other than the question
at hand.

What I am trying to do here is design a frame (trike) and
on the rear axel (two wheels on this axel, maybe a bad
choice of words here again 'on the rear weldment
assembly, which are attached 2 axels'😉 figure out the
necessary strength of the rear weldment assembly. These
wheels (on the

rear

Quoted message said:

weldment assembly) do not lean, they will be vertical at
all times and should I hit a turn at a high rate of speed.
I know approximately how many G's I generate on this said
high rate of speed turn, I want to know how

much

Quoted message said:

the wheel will take before warping. I then will take this
data and build

the

Quoted message said:

frame to take the side load the wheel can, using
appropriate safety

factors.

Quoted message said:

Before I get a lecture on the theories on design and that
I may be over my head in this, I am a experienced aircraft
designer and have FEA and CFD tools to help me in this
venture as well as experience in doing the calcs

by

Quoted message said:

hand.

I am not trying to be smart here I just want to be
specific so I can find out a resource of side loading
capabilities of a bike wheel or how to calculate it
without having to rig up a test and determine it my self.

Ben

Ben,

Have you considered asking the companies that make the
wheels?

Just a thought....

jd

Hi, sorry for bringing this old thread alive, but I'm looking at making a four wheel recumbent load carrier and have no idea how to work out how much lateral load a wheel can take. I'm assuming that a bmx wheel will be able to do it, but as it is said that through using simple trig an esitmate can be made, I would like to know that method.

Im guessing that you draw triangles and your saying that the side load coming in should not be greater than the tension in the spokes?

Mark says refer to the book but I'v looked in bicycle science, and The bicycle Wheel but neither spell it out (for somebody like me) how to approximate how much lateral force the spoke wheel can take.

Cheers

Luke

From what I can read, it looks like nobody knew the answer back then, either.