Merlin vs. Litespeed vs. Moots

VeloJon said:

I am soliciting opinions on the basic build quality of the major Ti
frame builders. I am not interested in design elements, components,
etc. just quality and workmanship on the frames and only on their Ti
models. Feel free to include other manufacturers than the 3 above.
P.S. I know Merlin and Litespeed are part of the same company, but
many still prefer one over the other. Thanks, VJ

I have a Litespeed. Rides fine. Welds look tidy and small. Presume
they have the proper penetration. You can (or could) usually find a
Litespeed frame from a prior year at a decent enough price. Not as
likely with Merlin and I doubt at all possible with Moots. I would
not be afraid to buy any of the three brands if the price and want was
right. Moots has more of a cache since there are many fewer of them
around. Everyone knows you paid full retail for it. Merlin above
Litespeed in the name department due to history as opposed to today's
ownership situation. Litespeed you see on every single ride, just
like Trek. But for non bicyclists, they would be more likely to know
Litespeed than the others.

Can you even get poor quality or workmanship on an upper level frame/
bike today? If you buy a road bike or frame/fork above $1000 from an
official bike shop, can you buy a poor quality bike or frame/fork?
Even if you try? You can overpay. But what you are buying will still
be good quality.

For the original question asker, are you afraid if you make the wrong
choice among these brands that your bike will break the day after the
warranty ends?

VeloJon said:

I am soliciting opinions on the basic build quality of the major Ti
frame builders. I am not interested in design elements, components,
etc. just quality and workmanship on the frames and only on their Ti
models. Feel free to include other manufacturers than the 3 above.
P.S. I know Merlin and Litespeed are part of the same company, but
many still prefer one over the other. Thanks, VJ

Beware the integrated headset. I think the new model Litespeeds did
away with the integrated headset, but if you are buying used, stay
away from Litespeeds of 2-4 years old.

Chris

VeloJon said:

I am soliciting opinions on the basic build quality of the major Ti
frame builders. I am not interested in design elements, components,
etc. just quality and workmanship on the frames and only on their Ti
models. Feel free to include other manufacturers than the 3 above.
P.S. I know Merlin and Litespeed are part of the same company, but
many still prefer one over the other. Thanks, VJ

I've owned a Merlin (from 1991, when they were independent -- in fact I
still have it), and 2 Moots.

I'd say the build quality is similar -- but now that Merlin has been
bought I'm not as up on what the latest bikes are like. I would expect
it would still be good enough quality wise -- though I'll say that I
think their move to "integrated headsets" was a very bad one. You look
at bikes like the Cielo, and while they have a 15 cm head tube, the
downtube and top tube pretty much touch at the joint because there is
about 1" on the top and bottom of space for the bearings. Not sure if
they've moved away from this [censored] design -- it's worth checking into.

I can only say good things about the Moots (I have a YBB and a
Vamoots). Build quality is excellent, ride is excellent, etc. The YBB
is from 1999 but only has about 200 rides on it. The Vamoots is from
2003 and has about 40,000 road miles on it... other than some scuffs
from fenders in the winter, it looks new when I clean it.

If it were me, I'd go with the Moots. Smaller builder, nice group of
guys, and when I ordered a custom bike my experience with Kent (the
founder) was fantastic.

FYI Kent has now moved on to his own company -- Eriksen Cycles:

http://www.kenteriksen.com/

VeloJon said:

I am soliciting opinions on the basic build quality of the major Ti
frame builders. I am not interested in design elements, components,
etc. just quality and workmanship on the frames and only on their Ti
models. Feel free to include other manufacturers than the 3 above.
P.S. I know Merlin and Litespeed are part of the same company, but
many still prefer one over the other.

Thats because their designs are different. All Merlins are designed by
Tom Kellog, none of the Litespeeds are.

BTW i bougght a Merlin Works CR 2.5/3 last year. The craftmanship is
outstanding; at 1190g (56.5cm top tube/144mm headtube) its lighter
than any Ti frame outt here but the Giasello witch i find stupid
light; its stiff enough for my 96kg; more comftable than the Battaglin,
Moser and Pinarello steel frames i've owned the past 15 years; its
perfectly balanced.
Last but not least the tubes are all seamless plain gauge (however
tapered and ovalized) and it seems to be a very solid construction.

I wouldn't trade it for _any_ frame out there, maybee exept form a
custum Spectrum Ti (Tom Kellogs own brand, also build by Merlin)

<http://merlinbikes.com/2006/works/tech_tubing.aspx>
<http://www.spectrum-cycles.com/21.htm>

The only thing i'd like to improve is the Real Design fork wich i
might replace with a woundup fork.

--
Morten Reippuert Knudsen :-) <http://blog.reippuert.dk>

Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.

Bill Lloyd said:

I'd say the build quality is similar -- but now that Merlin has been
bought I'm not as up on what the latest bikes are like. I would expect
it would still be good enough quality wise -- though I'll say that I
think their move to "integrated headsets" was a very bad one.

Neither Merlin or Litespeed does stupid things like carbon or
integrated headsets anymore.

--
Morten Reippuert Knudsen :-) <http://blog.reippuert.dk>

Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.

In article <[email hidden]>

Pat said:

I keep waiting for somebody to mention Seven. Why not?

Because Seven ate nine.

--
Med venlig hilsen
Henrik Münster
Esbjerg

I keep waiting for somebody to mention Seven. Why not?

VeloJon <[email hidden]> wrote in news:1182367136.033960.236670
@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:

Quoted message said:

I am soliciting opinions on the basic build quality of the major Ti
frame builders.

Seven is the best.

sally said:

VeloJon <[email hidden]> wrote in news:1182367136.033960.236670
@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:

Quoted message said:

I am soliciting opinions on the basic build quality of the major Ti
frame builders.

Seven is the best.

Is this a troll? -- Jay Beattie.

sally said:

VeloJon <[email hidden]> wrote in news:1182367136.033960.236670
@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:

Quoted message said:

I am soliciting opinions on the basic build quality of the major Ti
frame builders.

Seven is the best.

Ah, checked the preceeding posts. Now I see. I thought this would be
my opportunity to rant about Sevens, their ungodly price and claims to
magical characteristics. I guess I will have to leave that for
another time. -- Jay Beattie.

VeloJon said:

I am soliciting opinions on the basic build quality of the major Ti
frame builders. I am not interested in design elements, components,
etc. just quality and workmanship on the frames and only on their Ti
models. Feel free to include other manufacturers than the 3 above.
P.S. I know Merlin and Litespeed are part of the same company, but
many still prefer one over the other. Thanks, VJ

Strong
Indy Fab
Spectrum (Kellogg)
Lynskey (founders of Litespeed)
Eriksen (founder of Moots)

Of the three you mention I have affinity for the Moots. Everyone I
know with one would get another. The other builder of Ti that I really
like is Carl Strong. If I went Ti it would be one of these two
builders. Nothing wrong with the others though.

Mark

In article <[email hidden]>,

Henrik Münster said:

In article <[email hidden]>

Pat said:

I keep waiting for somebody to mention Seven. Why not?

Because Seven ate nine.

I thought six turned out to be nine.

VeloJon said:

I am soliciting opinions on the basic build quality of the major Ti
frame builders. I am not interested in design elements, components,
etc. just quality and workmanship on the frames and only on their Ti
models. Feel free to include other manufacturers than the 3 above.
P.S. I know Merlin and Litespeed are part of the same company, but
many still prefer one over the other. Thanks, VJ

http://www.davidsonbicycles.com/html/home.shtml

http://www.ifbikes.com/

http://www.habcycles.com/

http://www.serotta.com/

A few more preference possibilities. --D-y

Quoted message said:

VeloJon said:

I am soliciting opinions on the basic build quality of the major Ti
frame builders. I am not interested in design elements, components,
etc. just quality and workmanship on the frames and only on their Ti
models. Feel free to include other manufacturers than the 3 above.
P.S. I know Merlin and Litespeed are part of the same company, but
many still prefer one over the other. Thanks, VJ

I have a Litespeed. Rides fine. Welds look tidy and small. Presume
they have the proper penetration. You can (or could) usually find a
Litespeed frame from a prior year at a decent enough price. Not as
likely with Merlin and I doubt at all possible with Moots. I would
not be afraid to buy any of the three brands if the price and want was
right. Moots has more of a cache since there are many fewer of them
around. Everyone knows you paid full retail for it. Merlin above
Litespeed in the name department due to history as opposed to today's
ownership situation. Litespeed you see on every single ride, just
like Trek. But for non bicyclists, they would be more likely to know
Litespeed than the others.

Can you even get poor quality or workmanship on an upper level frame/
bike today? If you buy a road bike or frame/fork above $1000 from an
official bike shop, can you buy a poor quality bike or frame/fork?
Even if you try? You can overpay. But what you are buying will still
be good quality.

For the original question asker, are you afraid if you make the wrong
choice among these brands that your bike will break the day after the
warranty ends?

Yes, I think you can. I bought a custom made frame from a highly
respected builder, and the bike developed a crack at the seat tube /
bottom bracket junction. They quickly repaired and completely repainted
the frame, and I had no further problems with build quality.

On the other hand, the frame was a 63cm, and made with Scandium tubing,
and it would vibrate like a piano wire sometimes on fast downhills. I
now look at, but no longer ride, that frame. Maybe the builder could or
should have known that Scandium wasn't robust enough in that frame size,
and for my weight.

VeloJon said:

I am soliciting opinions on the basic build quality of the major Ti
frame builders. I am not interested in design elements, components,
etc. just quality and workmanship on the frames and only on their Ti
models. Feel free to include other manufacturers than the 3 above.
P.S. I know Merlin and Litespeed are part of the same company, but
many still prefer one over the other. Thanks, VJ

Finest welds are Moots, hands down. Strong engineering go into tube
design as well, from the 3 main to the strays. For a small company
that 'does one thing and does it well'(ti frames), I don't think you
can find a nicer ti frame. No eyeweash, gadgets(carbon plugs are just
plain dummmm), no big decals or funny shapes that do nuthin'...BUT I'm
biased as I have been selling Moots for almost a decade, could sell
many others, but choose Moots.

Colin Campbell said:

Quoted message said:

VeloJon said:

I am soliciting opinions on the basic build quality of the major Ti
frame builders. I am not interested in design elements, components,
etc. just quality and workmanship on the frames and only on their Ti
models. Feel free to include other manufacturers than the 3 above.
P.S. I know Merlin and Litespeed are part of the same company, but
many still prefer one over the other. Thanks, VJ

Quoted message said:

I have a Litespeed. Rides fine. Welds look tidy and small. Presume
they have the proper penetration. You can (or could) usually find a
Litespeed frame from a prior year at a decent enough price. Not as
likely with Merlin and I doubt at all possible with Moots. I would
not be afraid to buy any of the three brands if the price and want was
right. Moots has more of a cache since there are many fewer of them
around. Everyone knows you paid full retail for it. Merlin above
Litespeed in the name department due to history as opposed to today's
ownership situation. Litespeed you see on every single ride, just
like Trek. But for non bicyclists, they would be more likely to know
Litespeed than the others.

Quoted message said:

Can you even get poor quality or workmanship on an upper level frame/
bike today? If you buy a road bike or frame/fork above $1000 from an
official bike shop, can you buy a poor quality bike or frame/fork?
Even if you try? You can overpay. But what you are buying will still
be good quality.

Quoted message said:

For the original question asker, are you afraid if you make the wrong
choice among these brands that your bike will break the day after the
warranty ends?

Yes, I think you can. I bought a custom made frame from a highly
respected builder, and the bike developed a crack at the seat tube /
bottom bracket junction. They quickly repaired and completely repainted
the frame, and I had no further problems with build quality.

I'd attribute the crack to random chance. Not build quality. Do you
expect the builder to do some kind of x-ray procedure on each piece of
steel looking for microscopic cracks in the tubes? Spokes will break
for Mr. Brandt too if they have an internal flaw.

Quoted message said:

On the other hand, the frame was a 63cm, and made with Scandium tubing,
and it would vibrate like a piano wire sometimes on fast downhills. I
now look at, but no longer ride, that frame. Maybe the builder could or
should have known that Scandium wasn't robust enough in that frame size,
and for my weight.- Hide quoted text -

Maybe the builder should have known this problem. Not much point
building a quality frame that performed poorly. But did you ask/
request/demand a super lightweight frame? Hard for a service provider
to refuse a customer.

Quoted message said:

- Show quoted text -

VeloJon said:

I am soliciting opinions on the basic build quality of the major Ti
frame builders. I am not interested in design elements, components,
etc. just quality and workmanship on the frames and only on their Ti
models. Feel free to include other manufacturers than the 3 above.
P.S. I know Merlin and Litespeed are part of the same company, but
many still prefer one over the other. Thanks, VJ

We are all such traitors. As soon as he quits the website we forget
about him. i know that he was a stubborn Bush supporter but, hell
nobody is perfect. Check out habanero cycles. Everyone here has very
high regards for those ti frames which, incidentally, are very cheap.

Andres

Mark said:

VeloJon said:

I am soliciting opinions on the basic build quality of the major Ti
frame builders. I am not interested in design elements, components,
etc. just quality and workmanship on the frames and only on their Ti
models. Feel free to include other manufacturers than the 3 above.
P.S. I know Merlin and Litespeed are part of the same company, but
many still prefer one over the other. Thanks, VJ

Strong
Indy Fab
Spectrum (Kellogg)
Lynskey (founders of Litespeed)
Eriksen (founder of Moots)

Of the three you mention I have affinity for the Moots. Everyone I
know with one would get another. The other builder of Ti that I really
like is Carl Strong. If I went Ti it would be one of these two
builders. Nothing wrong with the others though.

Mark

Are those guys welding the frames themselves?

Lou
--
Posted by news://news.nb.nu (http://www.nb.nu)

Quoted post said:

VeloJon said:

I am soliciting opinions on the basic build quality of the major Ti
frame builders. I am not interested in design elements, components,
etc. just quality and workmanship on the frames and only on their Ti
models. Feel free to include other manufacturers than the 3 above.
P.S. I know Merlin and Litespeed are part of the same company, but
many still prefer one over the other. Thanks, VJ

We are all such traitors. As soon as he quits the website we forget
about him. i know that he was a stubborn Bush supporter but, hell
nobody is perfect. Check out habanero cycles. Everyone here has very
high regards for those ti frames which, incidentally, are very cheap.

Like $2K below most of the designer Ti frames. Seems like a no-
brainer for a normal person. Normal meaning a non-racer who is not
narcissistic or deluded about his needs. -- Jay Beattie.